Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

I think we could help them out with their updates by recycling some of the comments from earlier ones. We could probably make a reasonable guess at what the next update is going to be.

It will probably start with:

I apologize for being late with the update but we had a busy weekend. (On the TV show 'Dragon's Den, the Dragons tend to steer clear of people who have day jobs because they are not 100% committed to their ideas).

Then it will follow:
The new reflow oven has arrived, but problems with the temperature profile caused our prototype boards to be destroyed. We now waiting for a new batch of boards to be delivered. (If they had someone who has built boards before, they would know that you can solder boards in a $40-80 toaster oven, using a thermocouple to monitor the temperature)

We have further refined the case and we are having new molds made.

The GUI has been further improved so I can now show you some thermal images (from a high resolution commercial camera or images we took through our office window and colored them in. I have lots of CGI/VFX experience from my day job)

We are happy to show you pictures of the GUI.

I would like to show you pictures of the camera and the PCB but NDAs with our key supplier prevent me from being able to do this.

We  expect to be shipping cameras in a few weeks.

We continue to have interest from major resellers.

Thank you for your patience.


Usual disclaimers apply. Any resemblance to reality is a coincidence.


 


Jay_Diddy_B

[mikeselectricstuff]

Apparently the IR-Blue is actually shipping to backers: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory/posts/502053

That might mean that there is a shred of possibility of mu optics pulling through (however, very unlikely).

The two are completely unconnected. IR-Blue was clearly a realistic product based on an available part based on established technology.
There is NO available sensor that meets mu's spec/price point. If there was, someone more competent would be on the market with it already.
And there's no way that a manufacturer of any new & innovative sensor would (still) be granting idiots like mu any exclusivity on it.

[EEVblog]

There is NO available sensor that meets mu's spec/price point. If there was, someone more competent would be on the market with it already.
And there's no way that a manufacturer of any new & innovative sensor would (still) be granting idiots like mu any exclusivity on it.

And that's the trick. They have backed themselves into a corner by stating very clearly

The imager we’re using now is of the highest quality and has been in the market for some time.

That makes the sensor non-exclusive and essentially "off the shelf".
So based on their banner claim for the resolution of 160x120, that means if all this is true, a quality 160x120 thermal sensor has existed on the market for "some time" (and that claim was already made one month ago). Yet no one has a cheap 160x120 thermal meter on the marker at anywhere close to what Mu claim they can sell it at, nor is there any news of anyone even working on one. Nor can a host of inquisitive technical people who are backing and following this project find one.
Even if the sensor alone cost half of Mu's retail asking price (minus lens and everything else), such a cheap sensor would have caused a huge stir in the market and you'd have a dozen companies and hackers everywhere working on it. And "some time" is more than enough time for a hacker show something. Heck, a week would be enough.
So I can't see any way in which that claim can be true 

[mikeselectricstuff]

such a cheap sensor would have caused a huge stir in the market and you'd have a dozen companies and hackers everywhere working on it.

Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon. 

[uprightsquire]

What kind of nefarious fun are the export controls trying to stop?

[EEVblog]

Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon.

True, but not if the sensor isn't from the land of Uncle Sam.

[AndyC_772]

What kind of nefarious fun are the export controls trying to stop?

Heat seeking missiles, probably.

[EEVblog]

What kind of nefarious fun are the export controls trying to stop?

The US paranoid delusional kind 
Like you can't buy certain really fast trannies and other parts, because they could be used in an implosion nuke.
Heck, they even tried to export control the Playsation 2 because it might be used for nuke design:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/review/061399china-chips-review.html

[cyr]

The military kind generally.

It's pretty hard to hide tanks and stuff from high quality thermal cameras.

Not impossible though:

[suoixon]

Wouldn't you say that the specs of this unit

http://www.pce-instruments.com/deutsch/messtechnik-im-online-handel/messgeraete-fuer-alle-parameter/waermebildkamera-pce-holding-gmbh-waermebildkamera-pce-tc-31-det_387592.htm?_list=qr.art&_listpos=1

is very similar to the Muoptics claimed specs?

[EEVblog]

Wouldn't you say that the specs of this unit
http://www.pce-instruments.com/deutsch/messtechnik-im-online-handel/messgeraete-fuer-alle-parameter/waermebildkamera-pce-holding-gmbh-waermebildkamera-pce-tc-31-det_387592.htm?_list=qr.art&_listpos=1
is very similar to the Muoptics claimed specs?

Yes, I sure someone has already mentioned that way back, and I think one of the backers said it was likely the commercial one used in their promo shots.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon.

True, but not if the sensor isn't from the land of Uncle Sam.

Most other countries have export restrictions of some kind, so the situation is probably similar wherever things are made. And even if not, any manufacturer would not want to risk being barred from the US market, or having supplies of critical parts or materials for letting potential baddies have access to thermal imaging on their i-phones.

[sleemanj]

Gotta wonder since everything is so secret if the shipping letter would go something like...

"Congratulations on your purchase of this world beating IR camera.  We are sure you will have many great years knowing that you own the best IR camera out there, thanks for your support which allowed us to develop this amazing camera!.  Naturally due to our many partner companies and the NDAs we have in place you can't see, touch or use it, so we have welded it into this steel box filled with the highest quality lead for your convenience!"

[CanadianAvenger]

Yes, I sure someone has already mentioned that way back, and I think one of the backers said it was likely the commercial one used in their promo shots.

Actually the promo shots are at a higher resolution. Images with 3 different resolutions were posted [600x456, 279x214, 178x178]

[Rasz]

Export controls might be their end game
-supplier refused to  ship us parts because we dont have super secrut clearance
-we shipped units to backers, but super secrut export police confiscated them

I still think it will be something more mundane
-warehouse fire
-main dev died with only copy of device plans and prototype in plane crash

[tom66]

Sadly, I reckon it'll be the same as most other crowdsourced projects... a slow, tapering off of updates, before completely stopping. 

[MacAttak]

They still haven't played the "Men in black suits raided our research office" card, or the "John's Mother/Brother/Westie underwent radiation therapy and he had to take some time off to care for them". Nor have they tried the "PayPal froze our assets" card.

Still many more rounds to go in this dance.


Oh, and I agree that this is entirely different from the IR-Blue project. But I am going to bet that the majority of the 1900 backers of mu thermal don't understand that, or refuse to accept it. They will see that "well, this other heat-picture-making-gizmo was able to be made and delivered for even cheaper than this one" without realizing that it isn't a fair comparison beyond the most superficial level.

[dustout]

"Hello All,

I thought that I’d go through and answer a few technical questions that have recently been asked.

Sensor -
We are using a 160×120 Microbolometer for infrared sensing. I’m sure most of you know what these sensors are, but here is the down and dirty wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer

Video Stream -
The data stream going from the camera to the host device is entirely raw data. That data is processed into video in the Mu App. By doing all of the processing in the app, we can push updates related to video without requiring hardware firmware updates.

Firmware -
That being said, the cameras will be firmware upgradable. JTAG, USB, and possibly OTA updates will be possible, however we will likely only support USB with the firmware that ships on the cameras. We will later release new firmwares that will enable the other update methods.

Open Source -
Although we haven’t settled on how much of the software and the project will be open sourced, we do want to enable the community to make interesting hacks and to expand the software to smaller or more niche platforms.

Cheers!
MuOptics"

[Pentode]

Yeah....right.....whatEVER!!!!

[jubaowan]

if Thermal Imager product became very cheap, isnot good things?

[AlfBaz]

I'm building an electric train, that being said I'm providing an efficient furnace for steam generation 

[EEVblog]

if Thermal Imager product became very cheap, isnot good things?

Yes, but these guys (who have no experience in the industry) have absolutely no say in that what so ever.
They claim they are using an off-the-shelf 160x120 microbolometer that has been on the market for "some time".
If that is true, at an affordable price, then many companies would have products on the market already.
These guys don't have the volume to influence anything in the market.

[MFX]

BTW on the export restrictions point this map http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Export_license.html  suggests there are no restrictions for much of Europe/Australia/some other countries on imagers up to 384 x 288 .

Martin.

[tom66]

On a recent update:

That being said, the cameras will be firmware upgradable. JTAG, USB, and possibly OTA updates will be possible, however we will likely only support USB with the firmware that ships on the cameras. We will later release new firmwares that will enable the other update methods.

How can you not support JTAG? I was under the impression that firmware installed has nothing to do with it -- other than perhaps an option to permanently disable the JTAG interface after production, to effectively create an OTP device.

[Hypernova]

They are just throwing around keywords they see on some random MCU datasheet.