Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[Hypernova]

Heh, wouldn't it be nice if there was a coating that converts far IR to near IR? Just like how fluros and white LEDs work. You would still need the Ge lens but at least you can use cheap ass CCDs.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've been following this topic for awhile and I finally decided to make an account to add my 2 cents to the discussion. What about using IR Transmittable Ink coated on a standard lens?

http://www.teikokuink.com/en/product/techreport/146_tech.html

That won't work for the same reason that painting a wall with clear varnish will not make it  transparent

[Fraser]

I was hunting for decent pictures of the E4 and found this site. It has some nice pictures and comments on the E4 and i3 that readers may find interesting.

http://www.pass-thermal.co.uk/flir-thermal-cameras

 The E4 appears to use a very small lens but it still achieves 0.15 Degrees C sensitivity. Not bad considering. I note that the tiny visible light camera lens is located right above the Germanium lens to reduce the offset error. As Dave states, my external lens would not work on the E4 in its Visible/Thermal combined mode as the visible light camera would be misaligned with the ZnSe lens. You could use it in thermal mode only.

I note that the E4 and i3 are priced the same on the PASS site. A little odd that. I would expect the i3 to be discounted until stocks are exhausted and then discontinued ? The i3 has a fixed focus lens. Not sure about the E4 design but it looks fixed as well. It will be interesting to see what Mike discovers. I am especially interested to see whether some clever interpolation is used to improve the captured image quality. You may think FLIR would include such, but not if it endangers sales of the higher resolution cameras in the range ?

Update: To answer my own questions. The E4 is fixed focus. The E4 example thermal pictures on the FLIR web site show no evidence of interpolation enhancement. They are setting definite image quality boundaries in the range.

http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=61194&collectionid=830&col=61195
 

The price in the USA appears significantly cheaper than in the UK. Not sure whether these units could be purchased when visiting the USA and it is unlikely you could purchase one for export without FLIR preventing such.

Having looked at the specs and prices, I believe the E5 would be my budget minded choice as the E4 falls below what I would consider in terms of resolution.

[Fraser]

Nice site.

For years I have used TICs for a very specific task. This site and others that I have seen show how a TIC may also be used for artistic purposes. I shall have to experiment with landscapes and natural rock formations myself. For me, resolution is king. The lower resolution images are fine for diagnostics on houses etc, but the artistic element is lost to the noise, blockiness, and false colour of some pictures.

The monochrome images appear especially effective 

Thermal imaging........ Seeing the world in a completely different way 

Now to rebuild one of my knackered FLIR battery packs so that I get a decent run time while out and about.

[mikeselectricstuff]

E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.

[nixxon]

E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.

Someone may get disturbed as you describe non UK and US mains plugs as part of "...weird, foreign, nonsense,... horrible mains plugs", just as the aussie looking plug is discarded

I use a Fluke TiR that I buyed second hand for about $ 1000, about a year ago. The close up range for the IR part is pretty awesome. 2 cm or something.

The temperature range of the TIR is however pretty limited on the hot side, as it maxes out at >155 Celcius.

Has anyone had any luck using Silicon wafer(s) to bring the temperature readings of hot objects down to within readable temperature limits? Like this wafer on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/In-Spec-8-OD-SILICON-WAFERS-/230354635836

I wonder if the Narcissus effect will make a big blob in the middle of the image, though. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977SPIE..107...57L

It should be possible stack these wafers to control the attenuation in steps.

This article is interesting: "Measurements of Sun and Moon with IR Cameras: Effects of Air Mass": http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flir.com%2FWorkArea%2Flinkit.aspx%3FLinkIdentifier%3Did%26ItemID%3D50043%26libID%3D62957&ei=_cJVUsbcL4bkswaDjYHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFvXPBl2eA2kw1bnXS3HPvcG2RCSQ&sig2=w0XcggNzrdIQqZnthlgHUw&bvm=bv.53760139,d.Yms

[Fraser]

You just need to identify a commonly available material with attenuating properties at the TIC wavelength. Take a look at the attachment. APL used a combination of an Iris and three sheets of viewgraph plastic sleeve (30% transmissive at LW IR)

Do some experimentation with a known heat source (candle) and different attenuator materials. Some Googling should help you find different options.

Look at the section on the camera configuration.

[mikeselectricstuff]

E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.

The temperature range of the TIR is however pretty limited on the hot side, as it maxes out at >155 Celcius.

If your circuit is hitting 155C it probably doesn't matter how much hotter it's actually getting!

[mikeselectricstuff]

The price in the USA appears significantly cheaper than in the UK. Not sure whether these units could be purchased when visiting the USA and it is unlikely you could purchase one for export without FLIR preventing such.

All the UK places I found had exactly the same price, apart from Rapid which was more expensive (unusual for them!) and no stock. Probably too new a product to be seeing discounts yet, especially at the lower end.
Wouldn't be surprised to see some discounted i3's being cleared out soon.
AFAIUI the only restriction on 9fps is you can't take them to DurkaDurkastan or other specified terrist countries, whereas >9fps needs an export license ($xxx) and the end-user to sign some sort of paperwork when sold within the country.
I don't think there would be issues bringing Ex series from US to a non-dodgy country.   

[iceisfun]

E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.

The temperature range of the TIR is however pretty limited on the hot side, as it maxes out at >155 Celcius.

If your circuit is hitting 155C it probably doesn't matter how much hotter it's actually getting!

When this circuit rises 88C/sec your going to see some serious shit...

[nixxon]

You just need to identify a commonly available material with attenuating properties at the TIC wavelength. Take a look at the attachment. APL used a combination of an Iris and three sheets of viewgraph plastic sleeve (30% transmissive at LW IR)

Do some experimentation with a known heat source (candle) and different attenuator materials. Some Googling should help you find different options.

Look at the section on the camera configuration.

Thanks for the file. I'll probably need quite a few layers of plastic, before pointing the TIC at the sun. Maybe I can find some suitable aperture from a discarded SLR lens to put in front of the TIC lens.

[Fraser]

The Mu design team should look at this thread to discover how a real thermal camera is constructed. They may be in for a nasty shock !

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-review/msg307502/#msg307502

Mike is hopefully going to be able to show the internal parts as well.

When you see the E4 for $1000 you quickly realise that the Mu is dead, even if it did claim higher resolution. The company simply cannot compete with the knowledge that FLIR has of the market.

[EEVblog]

When you see the E4 for $1000 you quickly realise that the Mu is dead, even if it did claim higher resolution.

In 9 months Mu haven't even shown a single thermal image. Mu was never alive.

The company simply cannot compete with the knowledge that FLIR has of the market.

Mu are not a thermal company, they have never produced anything, not even a working prototype to anyone's knowledge.
It's amazing these days how you can do a 3D render, some fancy marketing talk, and somehow, BANG!, you are in the business and being quoted as a product and player by all and sundry.

[vk6zgo]

They're the same sort of people that used to advertise "Joan the Wad  the lucky Cornish Piskie "to gullible old fools in the back pages of "Wide World" magazine when I was a kid!
Now they have the wonderful resources of computer graphics & the Internet!

Wasn't it P.T.Barnum who allegedly said:-

"There's a fool born every minute."

and

"Never give a sucker an even break"?

[mrflibble]

Wasn't it P.T.Barnum who allegedly said:-

...

"Never give a sucker an even break"?

No, that was St. Francis of Assisi.

[cyr]

"Never give a sucker an even break"?

No, that was St. Francis of Assisi.

Well if he did, it was strictly off the record.

[dustout]

Just got an update:

Hello All,

First, we'd like to thank you all for your continued support, and apologize again for the delay in our delivery schedule. I know that those of you with experience in startups and especially hardware projects understand just how common it is for small and unexpected issues to arise that inevitably delay the project. For us, our largest delay yet was not caused by a problem, but rather by the huge amount of support and interest that the camera has generated. As we've proceeded, we've been met with much more enthusiasm from parts vendors worldwide and evaluating those opportunities has taken time. That interest has allowed us to source even better parts than we had originally planned, and has allowed us to produce a camera that is not only professional grade, but also very user-friendly.

Right now, our hardware design is complete, and we are working on our image processing software. This is without a doubt the most repetitive and tedious portion of the project. Constant changes to the imaging filter and Non-Uniformity Correction filter in order to produce a truly high quality image. Looking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.

As soon as we have finished the firmware, we will cut the checks and give the manufacturers the go ahead! We can't wait for everyone to start using the camera.

I'll do my best to continue updating with some interesting content as frequently as possible.

Cheers,

-Charles and MuOptics

[mikeselectricstuff]

For us, our largest delay yet was not caused by a problem, but rather by the huge amount of support and interest that the camera has generated. As we've proceeded, we've been met with much more enthusiasm from parts vendors worldwide and evaluating those opportunities has taken time.

yeah, right.

That interest has allowed us to source even better parts than we had originally planned, and has allowed us to produce a camera that is not only professional grade, but also very user-friendly.

how user-unfriendly can a TIC be?
And what exactly does professional grade mean? Working would be a start.

Right now, our hardware design is complete, and we are working on our image processing software. This is without a doubt the most repetitive and tedious portion of the project.

We don't know what the hell we are doing, so are randomly plonking figures in to see what happens.

Constant changes to the imaging filter and Non-Uniformity Correction filter in order to produce a truly high quality image.

But still no actual images - put up or shut up. We've all stopped caring.

Looking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.

And yet still no evidence.

As soon as we have finished the firmware, we will cut the checks and give the manufacturers the go ahead! We can't wait for everyone to start using the camera.

Has nobody told you ater all this time that you can start production before firmware is finished.

Yawn.

[mrflibble]

Looking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.

And yet still no evidence.

That made me giggle like a little girl. Those guys are so full of shit, it's hilarious. 

"Yes yes, we know we are behind schedule. We also know our backers are really getting impatient now. This is why, after much thought, we have decided to totally not post any raw image data! But we really have raw image data. We will just not post it, because ppfffrtrtrt plpplpl blblblblbl *brain goes ploop*. Thank you again so much for your patience. suckeeeeers".

Anyone not demanding their money back and/or joining the lynch mob deserves to be conned. sortof. Those updates read like poorly implemented bullet points from the Conman Cookbook, chapter 1.

[cloudscapes]

Better and more pro hardware, eh?

So, preparing for the eventual "we bit off more than we can chew with the new expensive hardware and now we have lost everything" update, I guess.

[Fraser]

This just gets worse and worse.

As all developers know....you build the basic MK1 'without frills' version and sell that to the early adopters who just want a capability at low cost. You then build the MKII Deluxe model using profits from the MK1 sales. This is then followed by the ULTRA version that has all the bells and whistles built onto a well proven platform that has all the bugs pulled out of it.

You do not try to build the ULTRA version first and offer it for sale at rock bottom prices to early adopters 

If Mu could even build a simple Thermal Camera engine, they could probably sell it for US$200 withut any case, bells or whistles. Just look at the interest in Mikes FLIR E4 tear down. People want the building blocks to make their own TICs. Mu have not a clue what they are doing and from the looks of it, they never had a clue !

As for the latest update.....as Dave would say.... I smell bullsh*t !

[cloudscapes]

This just gets worse and worse.

As all developers know....you build the basic MK1 'without frills' version and sell that to the early adopters who just want a capability at low cost. You then build the MKII Deluxe model using profits from the MK1 sales. This is then followed by the ULTRA version that has all the bells and whistles built onto a well proven platform that has all the bugs pulled out of it.

You do not try to build the ULTRA version first and offer it for sale at rock bottom prices to early adopters 

It may be the tinfoil hat on my head, but this is why I feel as if this latest development is just a set up for a project failure update. I've seen that kind of "tactic" on a different kickstarter campaign for a video game last year (of which they were exposed, wish I could remember what it was exactly).

Then again, maybe I'm paranoid.

[mrflibble]

It may be the tinfoil hat on my head, but this is why I feel as if this latest development is just a set up for a project failure update.

It read exactly like this.

[EEVblog]

As for the latest update.....as Dave would say.... I smell bullsh*t !

Most people with any sort of clue smelled BS many months and many updates ago.
This latest update is stunning, Mu have excelled themselves again!

[rolycat]

We can all stop worrying - the Mu thermal imager is now available, and it really does look like a professional bit of gear:

http://www.flir.com/cvs/americas/en/maritime/view/?id=59700