Keysight Scary Letter

[mikeselectricstuff]

If I understand correctly Keysight is trying to hold of a unit OP purchased fair and square from a third party? I don't think they have any legal leverage here.

It would depend on if the original seller had the right to sell it. It could be something like this SA was on loan from Keysight and was liquidated at auction by mistake. It is still Keysight's property even though OP bought it.

But you'd at least have a claim against the auction house.

[mikeselectricstuff]

...
I would offer to give it back to them in exchange for a brand-new spectrum analyzer meeting the specifications of the one you have. It's a win-win for them -- they get their IP back and you get a brand new SA. Far cheaper for them too, in terms of litigation.

Take a look at the box ("A replacement for this product is available:...") at the upper right corner of this web page:

https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-8562A%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-8562A/9-khz-22-ghz-spectrum-analyzer?cc=US&lc=eng

I would take this approach as well. If the unit you have is indeed in need of being traced and potentially destroyed, that's inconveniencing you and your lab (doesn't matter if you're a hobbyist or a professional IMO). They should provide you with the modern replacement free of charge.

Or ask them to make you an offer 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Assuming it's actually HP vintage, it's hard to see what could be so valuable - does it appear to have any nonstandard options ?
Maybe they've lost the sourcecode and need a ROM image as all theirs have bit-rotted 

[Mr. Scram]

Assuming it's actually HP vintage, it's hard to see what could be so valuable - does it appear to have any nonstandard options ?
Maybe they've lost the sourcecode and need a ROM image as all theirs have bit-rotted 

This is what I'm interested in too. What makes this unit so special? Keysight will need to explain to show their claim is valid.

[0culus]

I am skeptical of the national security angle, because if there really was something classified in the unit the OP owns, he probably would have been visited at his house by feds to grab it and secure it.

[tszaboo]

It was an HP8562A spectrum analyzer.

Tell them that the company name doesn't match, so it is none of their business. Maybe they stop changing names every decade.

[PedroDaGr8]

Honestly, the letter is strong but not scary. It's strong because a strongly written letter is there most effective

The key points are:

1. They don't want to sue you.
2. They want the instrument back.
3. They know you paid money for this item and will expect to be made whole again.

Based on the department, my guess is it contains a preproduction or custom firmware and/or hardware. Possibly unencrypted test firmware, custom options, or something like that; we may never know specifically why.

Keep in mind, made whole means compensated not just for the physical instrument but for the time you are unable to utilize it or a replacement. In a business setting, the latter can be a substantial amount; for a home hobbyist not so much. Also, you should be compensated for any and all time used to package up the item and ship it (if they don't use a service to get it). Lastly, by cooperating with them, you are also doing them a favor, lawsuits are expensive! Don't let them make you think they are only doing you a favor by not suing.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk

[DaJMasta]

My guess is the unit in question has some non-standard modification or software that wasn't supposed to be released.... but it's so long out of date I hardly believe that would be relevant.  Maybe if it was former military/R&D lab and they forgot to delete internal memory or something (but damn, that would be stupid).


Aside from being sold when it wasn't theirs to sell.... yeah I don't know what it could be.  It's a long-obsolete product that was sold to a broad market, I can't imagine an IP claim can be made for anything but non-standard hardware or software specific to the unit.

[ArthurDent]

I once bought a Trimble Trimpack military GPS and checked the saved locations to see where it was used and it was from the west coast. Most of the spots were nondescript locations in the desert but the one that stood out wasn't a super-secret location but Joe's Bar and Grill. It's always 5 o'clock somewhere!

[AndyC_772]

I'd reply with a proposal along these lines...

Re: your letter concerning my spectrum analyser.

I confirm that I am the owner of the named instrument and that it is in working condition and regular use.

I recognise your concern and propose three options.

1) You provide a brand new replacement instrument of equivalent specification. My spectrum analyser will be made available for collection by you within 7 days of receipt of its replacement. All shipping charges, taxes, duties and other costs will be paid for by you.

2) We agree that this matter is closed, to the full and final satisfaction of both parties. You acknowledge that I will be under no obligation to retain ownership of the instrument, nor any record of its subsequent whereabouts should it leave my possession for any reason.

3) You explain clearly, specifically and in detail:

- the exact nature of the IP in question
- whether my instrument is unique or special in any way compared to other similar models which are generally available
- the nature of any contract between us which you believe binds me in any way regarding this instrument. Be sure to include its exact wording, the way in which it was made available to me, and the means by which you believe I indicated agreement to it.

I hope you agree that option (1) is the only option which guarantees a satisfactory outcome for both parties, as well as being the lowest risk, and probably the lowest cost all round.

[What a shame you're not in the EU, or I'd be asking very probing questions about GDPR and how they got your name and address too. It's not at all clear to me that anyone in possession of your contact details had any business passing them on without your consent].

[duak]

It's got a working flux capacitor coupled to a dilithium crystal.  Who knows how much energy could be liberated if you crack the easter egg!  )

I once made a presentation to a representative of the US Goverment about a product we had developed.  This fellow's business card had the US Goverment's logo and his name but nothing else.  No agency name or phone number.  He listened, asked a few questions and left.  I don't know what if any follow up occured.  We joked that he was from one of he spook shops but we never knew.  A few years later, I was talking with an FAE from a company that supported our product in the US.  He said that they had received a tape drive from one of the agencies for repair.  The agency had removed all the EPROM and RAM memory to make sure no sensitive data could have been spirited out.  Unfortunately, they forgot to eject the tape cartridge that may have actually contained sensitive data.  Apparently, they had to lock the cartridge and a security guard into their safe until the agency could get someone out to retrieve it.

Just a guess, but I'll bet there's nothing special about the SA.  It was probably just used at a secure facility and when it was disposed of, they didn't follow the right procedure.  It's a pisser that it'll be ground into little pieces.  I know that one large company had a policy of shovelling everything they were done with into the incinerator, including the 500 Kg unit we sent them for evaluation.

Cheers,

PS. no need to invoke conspiracy when sloppiness explains so much!

[jjoonathan]

Ok, they got in touch. No national security secret-sauce, not that they will admit to anyway, but it sounds like the situation is otherwise almost exactly what you guys guessed: a contractor was supposed to destroy the unit but sold it instead and eventually it wound up on my desk. Next steps TBD.

It's *not* a case of Keysight blanketing the used SA market with BS IP claims, thankfully.

[glarsson]

Why point 3? No need to know and will only make the deal more difficult.

[0culus]

Ok, they got in touch. No national security secret-sauce, not that they will admit to anyway, but it sounds like the situation is otherwise almost exactly what you guys guessed: a contractor was supposed to destroy the unit but sold it instead and eventually it wound up on my desk. Next steps TBD.

It's *not* a case of Keysight blanketing the used SA market with BS IP claims, thankfully.

Sounds like you may have a good case to ask for a new replacement, then.

[DaJMasta]

Ok, they got in touch. No national security secret-sauce, not that they will admit to anyway, but it sounds like the situation is otherwise almost exactly what you guys guessed: a contractor was supposed to destroy the unit but sold it instead and eventually it wound up on my desk. Next steps TBD.

It's *not* a case of Keysight blanketing the used SA market with BS IP claims, thankfully.

For what it's worth, they probably wouldn't tell you straight up if it was something sensitive - that's why the letter was so vaguely worded - because if you knew, you could just extract it before returning it.  Would be nice if you could give it to someone to sanitize it and get your SA back.

[tsman]

A few years later, I was talking with an FAE from a company that supported our product in the US.  He said that they had received a tape drive from one of the agencies for repair.  The agency had removed all the EPROM and RAM memory to make sure no sensitive data could have been spirited out.  Unfortunately, they forgot to eject the tape cartridge that may have actually contained sensitive data.

Ouch. Somebody must have received an absolutely collossal shouting at for that one 

Apparently, they had to lock the cartridge and a security guard into their safe until the agency could get someone out to retrieve it.

I hope they had some ventilation in that safe 

[mikeselectricstuff]

[What a shame you're not in the EU, or I'd be asking very probing questions about GDPR and how they got your name and address too. It's not at all clear to me that anyone in possession of your contact details had any business passing them on without your consent].

The way this should be done is that KS send a letter to the auctioneer to forward to the buyer, so no info is shared.
 

[PedroDaGr8]

Ok, they got in touch. No national security secret-sauce, not that they will admit to anyway, but it sounds like the situation is otherwise almost exactly what you guys guessed: a contractor was supposed to destroy the unit but sold it instead and eventually it wound up on my desk. Next steps TBD.

It's *not* a case of Keysight blanketing the used SA market with BS IP claims, thankfully.

This is good news for you, they have a legal need to get this back in their hands and destroy it. As for being made whole, keep in mind the aspects I mentioned before. Namely, being made whole means:

• The cost for you to get an identical instrument (not necessarily the price you paid). Keep in mind features of the instrument you have (LO/IF ports, frequency ranges, etc.).
• The inherent risks of acquiring a different used instrument. The one you have works well, but that doesn't mean another one will. This is a risk that has a dollar value and you should be compensated for it.
• The time it would take for you to find an acceptable replacement instrument, which means you are deprived of the use of the previous instrument.
• The value of your willingness (saving Keysight the court costs and bad PR)

I think a new, not used, instrument would not be an unreasonable request (especially keeping in mind BOM cost and your cost are two different topics). Another avenue to be made whole would be a newer used instrument, or even the same instrument, with a certain number of years of service/calibration (mitigates the risk of you getting a bum instrument and left holding the bag). Other areas of possible compensation would be accessories, options, etc.

As for your worry about BS IP claims, Keysight has shown themselves so far to not be that kind of company. They have been QUITE tolerant of things like aftermarket modification and the like. This could change in the future, but for the time being that's why they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

[0culus]

Ok, they got in touch. No national security secret-sauce, not that they will admit to anyway, but it sounds like the situation is otherwise almost exactly what you guys guessed: a contractor was supposed to destroy the unit but sold it instead and eventually it wound up on my desk. Next steps TBD.

It's *not* a case of Keysight blanketing the used SA market with BS IP claims, thankfully.

For what it's worth, they probably wouldn't tell you straight up if it was something sensitive - that's why the letter was so vaguely worded - because if you knew, you could just extract it before returning it.  Would be nice if you could give it to someone to sanitize it and get your SA back.

Unfortunately, in these situations, the problem is often satisfying some sort of compliance organization, and they are famously uncompliant with common sense. If they say it needs to be destroyed, it probably does.

[duak]

It's said that possession is 9/10 of the law.  OTOH, possession of stolen goods is a crime.  Not being a legal eagle, I can't say what justification they might use, but it would be something like this.  Do you know a lawyer? I'd at least ask one to see how much of this is bluffing.

I'd like to know what "making whole" means.  I'm going to bet it covers verifiable expenses and maybe a bit of goodwill, but doesn't cover expectations.  The downside for Keysight and the vendor are probably fines and loss of goodwill with the previous owner.  Someone will be raked over the coals.  It seems to me, the vendor should provide you with an equivalent SA.

Best o' luck,

[james_s]

I would do one of two things:

Keep it, tell them the instrument has been scrapped and no longer exists or was sold to an unknown private party, etc. You bought it, you own it, not your problem. Lawyers are good at writing scary sounding letters, doesn't mean they can do anything if you tell them to kindly f&*% off.

Demand full market value compensation, or a comparable unit in exchange. In the meantime dump/clone any memory devices in the unit so you can look around later and figure out what was so special about that particular unit. Personally I would do the latter part whether I kept the instrument or not, nothing like this sort of reaction to make me curious enough to start digging around.

[dr.diesel]

They don't have any legal right to it.  However if they really want it, they should be willing to trade you for a nicer/newer model, which is fair anyhow. 

Too bad they didn't start with that approach.

[mikeselectricstuff]

My reply would be along the lines of :
"You know as well as I do that you have no.legal claim, and it is clear from your approach that the item is of much more than market value to you.
Make me an offer."

[nctnico]

They don't have any legal right to it.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The OP is from the US so what if they start to operate by some national security 'law' and just make life hard on the OP? After all we don't know the reason behind Keysight wanting the device back and personally I wouldn't want to find out how far they are willing to go legally to get it back.

It makes sense the OP receives compensation but I don't think it is fair to demand a brand new device. This is a typical 'don't push your luck' situation.

[Mr. Scram]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The OP is from the US so what if they start to operate by some national security 'law' and just make life hard on the OP? After all we don't know the reason behind Keysight wanting the device back and personally I wouldn't want to find out how far they are willing to go legally to get it back.

It makes sense the OP receives compensation but I don't think it is fair to demand a brand new device. This is a typical 'don't push your luck' situation.

It's not fair to expect someone to go out and spend the time and effort to find another good deal, while not being able to use the device either. Compensating just the price of purchase isn't fair or realistic. There's a perfectly functional unit on the desk right now and any new situation would have to be fairly equivalent.

Besides, Keysight is the one causing trouble here regardless of the how and why. It makes sense for them not to be skimpy. If they offer OP a deal which makes him feel he won, both parties can walk away happy. Playing hardball isn't really smart when you want something from someone who can do anything he wants with his equipment, including things like dumping the firmware and posting it online and literally throwing the unit in a pond never to be seen by anyone again.