Author Topic: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)  (Read 3059860 times)

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Offline Godzil

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #675 on: August 21, 2015, 11:34:01 am »
What I really like with their demonstrations videos is the

"Look we made that fancy setup, and do that test"
"Here the results"

No time-lapse, no chronometer, watch or whatever to show the time elapsed, nothing at all but just bare results.

The light box, their 60 vs 20 could be after 10hours without their stuff, and the 60 vs 60 with their stuff could be done 5 min after the beginning of the test, and they didn't even give after how many time it stoped working, and for the setup without any batterastuff.

We even didn't see them taking a fresh battery from the packaging and put them in the holder, such a demonstration video should be done without any cut at all, maybe in fastforward, but without any cuts.

BTW they didn't put any data from they fancy lumen detector that store logged data on a nice SD card?
When you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective.
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Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #676 on: August 21, 2015, 11:57:52 am »
But at the end it isjust a waste of time speculating how the got their nice results.
No it isn't.

The thing that their claim of 800% is just BS. We don't have to argue about that. And I'm pretty sure that there's really nothing to gain on this Garmin device.
But they can't put out any proof were the they gain less then even a ridicules 400% now can they? So whatever they will show us, they will cheat in it. And I really don't care about how they cheat. Speculating about it just gives them a good laugh, and something to react on.
Remember that these are the people that discovered that 'Powersupplies are not Batteries!'.

Also their invention is not about boost converters, Bob said so himself.

All this discussion about the performance of the converter is just distracting from what this project is really about:
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #677 on: August 21, 2015, 12:20:09 pm »

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #678 on: August 21, 2015, 12:36:58 pm »
Nope. Anybody can prove that battery powered devices generally use up at least 80% of the power in the battery.

The funny thing is that Batteriser do admit this!
They admit in their FAQ (and previously on their home page before removing it) that most products cutout voltage is 1.1V under load.
They have nothing left to stand on after doing that, nothing.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #679 on: August 21, 2015, 12:46:25 pm »

Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.

I think no...

Looking at a few devices, they seem to have about 0.5mm of extra clearance provided by compressing the spring more, this will cater for the 0.5mm stainless steel sleeve.... But there's no clearance on the positive terminal to fit the boost converter, as most devices with cells positioned side by side, will have plastic tabs to retain the terminals...
They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #680 on: August 21, 2015, 12:51:42 pm »

They have at least 1.0mm. If you look at their pictures, they have a pcb above the positive cap. The cap has a height of at least 1.0mm. It looks like they have fitted the circuit into this space.
But this also means, the new battery will be at least 1mm longer than the original one.
The available area for all parts is no more than 125mm² and the volume less than 125mm³.

They can make it 1mm longer, but that won't physically fit into many devices...

Edit: you'll also have about half that area for a AAA cell...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 01:06:00 pm by AmmoJammo »
 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #681 on: August 21, 2015, 12:58:41 pm »
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #682 on: August 21, 2015, 01:08:18 pm »
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf

making it is a solved problem (satellites), doesnt change the fact its a SCAM that does nothing for consumers/products
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
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Offline ccs46

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #683 on: August 21, 2015, 02:54:24 pm »
I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:
Normal people... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. - Scott Adams
 

Offline janekm

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #684 on: August 21, 2015, 03:17:41 pm »
Can you even make a 1.5A or even 500mA  boost converter working at 1.5V and less with a decent efficiency in the tiny space that they have?
Let's see that working first.
Can you make a really tiny boost converter? Yes. Will the efficiency be any good? No. On-chip inductors exist but the inductance is tiny and the switching frequencies need to be >100MHz.

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wonyoung/wkim_jssc12.pdf

I wouldn't consider an on-chip inductor but rather an inductor in the flex-PCB between the two battery contacts. There's lots of challenges in making that efficient, especially sandwiched between the metal case of the battery and the metal strip of the batteriser, but then they've had 5 years to do it right? ;)

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1581833 (a much smaller inductor than needed in this case, but they've got quite a lot of area to play with along the sides of the battery).
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #685 on: August 21, 2015, 03:41:54 pm »
I have a friend who is a design engineer at Garmin, I want to see if we can get him to chime in about that GPS video. This will hilarious. :popcorn:
If he can confirm that the voltage cutout levels are the same and confirm the presence of a boost converter, that would be fantastic.
 

Offline Hugoneus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #686 on: August 21, 2015, 03:54:47 pm »
I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.



Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #687 on: August 21, 2015, 04:00:31 pm »
Only in occasions you can't leave the place you are in order to buy a fresh battery. Like night time.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #688 on: August 21, 2015, 04:22:02 pm »
I did a video a while back on energy harvesting ICs. I did a few experiment including collecting energy from melting ice cubes to charge my cell phone for 30 seconds.



Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

Of course what matters is how much longer in relative to the overall life of the battery. If a single battery can run my mouse for 3 months and I can get an extra 1 day use, that simply is not worth it.
But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).
 

Offline Hugoneus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #689 on: August 21, 2015, 04:37:14 pm »

But those things require a big storage capacitor. If you want to store a substantial amount of energy you need a huge capacitor, that just won't fit (I already doubt the  current Batteriser design fits in most devices anyway).

Only if you need to draw a large amount of current instantly once the DUT is turned on. You can run it without capacitors at lower currents (< 300mA). Of course the source needs to be able to deliver the needed current (at lower voltages but same same power times (1/efficiency)).

Offline rs20

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #690 on: August 21, 2015, 11:07:15 pm »
Those energy harvesting ICs can really drain batteries to the last drop. If I get the time I can try and see how much longer I can run something like a computer mouse or keyboard using those ICs.

That would be very interesting; even the most perfect energy harvesting IC can't overcome the fact that a near-dead battery has a very big ESR and therefore has a hard limit on how much power can be delivered. Put another way, if the keyboard draws power in bursts (and obviously it will), you'd really want that capacitor mentioned earlier; the capacitor provides the bursts of power; and the IC is pulling current out of the battery at a continuous, tiny current to keep I^2R down. Would be interesting to compare the longevity of the device with no output cap vs with the output cap -- does the ESR rise so rapidly that the output cap doesn't help for long, or does it make a big difference. Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #691 on: August 22, 2015, 10:36:33 am »
Does just adding a capacitor to the naked battery make a bigger difference than the harvesting IC (I have my doubts)? Etc...

TI wrote a white paper on the difference a capacitor makes to a battery:

http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/swra349/swra349.pdf

 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #692 on: August 22, 2015, 11:34:43 am »
With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

Even on a wall clock it helps, though with the new continuous motion clocks they still eat a battery a month. I got tired of doing it, so converted to run off a SLA cell that provides phone back up.  just added a 1000uF 10V capacitor ( old PC power supply that also donated the red LED and the SOT current limiting resistors) to handle those pulses. LED runs at 1V4, and barely glows. Even though the capacitor is CrapXon, and probably sky high ESR wise ( Did't test it, it was somewhat faded but not bulging or leaking, trhough the PSU was not happy at all) it works in this non demanding application.
 

Offline dcac

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #693 on: August 22, 2015, 12:51:10 pm »
With remote controls the capacitor, even 22uF, will make a big difference. I add them to remote fobs, and they will operate even with a battery that does not even light the LED on an unmodified unit, though the drawback is they will fail fast once the remote shows low battery.

With IR remotes a 100uF 6V3 SMD capacitor added across the terminals means a battery set will last for years, as opposed to under 2 years, even with the cheapest non alkaline regular zinc carbon cells from the shop.

I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals, which in this case is the same as the IR remote battery terminals. And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #694 on: August 22, 2015, 01:15:48 pm »
And this is (sort of) what Batteroo claims when saying PS's are not the same as batteries.
Nope, that wasn't what they were claiming at all.

However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

PS: It will be a fail because electronics engineers actually know about capacitors (and often put them in battery powered devices!)

« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 01:24:16 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #695 on: August 22, 2015, 01:27:50 pm »
I guess using a bench power supply to test the battery cut of voltage isn't going to give an accurate result then, as a bench PS already has that very low output impedance, sometimes (often) accomplished with a large internal capacitor in parallel with the output terminals,

Actually, it's the opposite.
The goal of a good lab PSU design is to minimise the output capacitance so that when it goes into constant current mode the output capacitance is able to supply as little peak current as possible.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #696 on: August 22, 2015, 01:29:19 pm »
However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #697 on: August 22, 2015, 02:04:26 pm »
However: It will probably be what they start claiming three days from now, right after they read your post.

It's been rather amazing how things magically appear on their videos, comments and website after they appear here. Must be a coincidence  ::)
Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

This document is a study after wasted battery energy. 33% was wasted in this study, not 80.

They give reasons for why non-empty batteries are being disposed -> Non of them can be fixed with a batteriser..

Finally the show how to measured what energy is left in a battery: Measure the voltage While loading the battery with 10R or so!
 

Offline lpickup

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #698 on: August 22, 2015, 03:25:01 pm »

Have you seen this article?
http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf
It was posted on the GPS test video by youtube-batteriser himself, after some invisible commenter pissed him off.

The interesting thing is that he claims that the paper backs up their 1.3V cut-off claims (I guess they are back to that higher number now), even though the only cut-off voltage claimed in the paper, as you (at least I think it was you) pointed out in your now deleted response, was 1.0V in the camera from 2001.  The only other possibility is that they think because batteries were thrown out with >1.3V (under load) left on them.  While true, they obviously can't draw the conclusion that those batteries were tossed because they fell below products' cut-off voltages, and more likely, as the paper pointed out, the users simply threw them out prematurely.

Here's what I predict will happen with this "product", assuming they do actually get it functioning at all:

The Indiegogo backers will receive their Batterisers.  Probably about 20-25% of them will fail within 2-3 batteries' worth of use.  The rest will go into devices like remote controls that will see almost no benefit from the Batteriser (in fact I think it the Batteriser will have a detrimental effect due to losses in the converter), but that won't matter because batteries already last a long time in those kinds of devices and nobody will actually be keeping track of how long they last compared to before.  And because they spent good money on the devices, they will convince themselves that they got so much more life out of their batteries.  A few devices may actually make it into old cameras (such as the one from 2001 mentioned in the above paper) that have a poorly designed battery management system that prematurely triggers the shut off mode (a camera I have appears to be such a poorly designed POS) and the Batteriser actually will extend the apparent life of those batteries, although probably by about 10-20% or so, nowhere near their claims.  Of course the meter reading on the camera will no longer function at all, so people will still resort to the bad habits stated in the paper of switching out the batteries--regardless of state-of-charge--before a weekend trip to make sure they have a fresh set.

Eventually the Batteriser will wind up on the home shopping channels or the overnight paid advertisements.  My mom will see them and buy me one for Christmas 2016 (because they buys all that crap she sees on TV), so in early 2017 I should be able to do my own scientific analysis of how crappy these things are in real-world practical devices that people actually use (and not clapping monkeys or old fashioned incandescent flashlights).

  ...Lance
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)
« Reply #699 on: August 22, 2015, 03:35:26 pm »
One of the giant logical fallacies of Brothers Roohparvar is equating human behavior with device design.
 


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