EEVblog #751 - How To Debunk A Product (The Batteriser)

[firewalker]

The above power converter ha a huge inductor/capacitors compared to batteriser.

Alexander.

Yes it does, impossibly big to fit on top of a aa cell, let alone a AAA...

So do you expect more photos? Less, or the same?

I expect batteriser to be worse.

Almost certain their switching frequency must be well in the MHz scale. What about EMI?

Alexander.

[dcac]

So we have absolutely nothing to go on.

A perfect scenario in their minds.

It’s amazing how much faq/advertising/videos they can produce and still reveal so little (true) facts.

[AmmoJammo]

https://youtu.be/U6ZBcU7GJBA

And I'm done with my testing, it just doesn't work!

I've tried two small boost regulators, neither was even able to run the camera.

Unless they're pulling current out of a monkeys butt, it isn't going to work!

It's possible it would have run the camera without a flash, but if it only works in some devices, under some conditions, assuming it actually physically fits, even then you're not going to see any benefit from it!

[McBryce]

Hold the presses!

I just went to Peter Zinniker's site and while I don't speak German (so I have no idea what this is referring to), he's got this image on his site:



WTF is it with these battery guys and monkeys?  Seriously!  Dave, are you SURE that the proper way to test a battery is NOT with a clapping monkey?

The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page is actually just reporting about a company that rents out batteries to you instead of you buying them. The Monkey is their company logo.

McBryce.

[FrankBuss]

They briefly mentioned 1.5A in a video, but they have provided no evidence of that, no formal specs, no test data, no efficiency curves, no pulse response data, nothing.

This makes sense and might be possible with a very efficient boost converter and for short peaks without releasing the magic smoke. Why don't they write it in their FAQ page? Obviously the FAQ is wrong: "the Batteriser sleeve is designed to deliver as much current as a battery is able to supply to the device".

[lpickup]

The picture on Rolf (not Peter) Zinnikers page

Thanks, fixed.

[McBryce]

It's still a battery related company using a monkey though! 

McBryce.

[Godzil]

Hum, you mean that for example, if with at a specified constant current or power, the deplete in 100 hour (to make thing simpler) , when we are at 50h of use, basically, it remain 50% of the battery?
Then at 90h it only remain 10%?
Hum make sense in a way

For constant power, yes, absolutely, that's how it works. Because battery capacity of measured in Wh, and you are draining at a constant Wh.
Of course, in practice with a boost converter like the Batteriser, nothing will ever be constant power because of the efficiency curve, but that's beside the point here.
For a constant current, no. But as I've shown in a recent video, and on that graph, the slope is fairly linear, but it's a close approximation.
So what he's (I think) getting at is essentially correct. But once again, it's exactly the same thing I've been saying and showing. Nothing new here at all, his point is pointless. And he made no mention of constant power and how that works. Why he'd omit easy and obvious explanation I don't know.

I agree with that for constant power, but the problem is on his drawing it was a "constant current" and not power, as he says "100mA constant current"... So a big fail

[Bud]

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

[HighVoltage]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

[Godzil]

Clapping cymbals monkey - A new design for an EEVblog shirt perhaps?

I wanted to say they may need a new company logo, but your tshirt idea is nice

 

And the slogan may say something like "We tap into your underused inner" , or perhaps "Feel 80% better!"

I love your slogan! 

[amyk]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Some interesting opinions of him, presumably(!) by former students, although only on CS courses and no EE ones. 

[edy]

What they are saying is that the Batteriser can tap into the 80% of energy (or voltage using their parlance) still left in alkaline batteries that are thrown away.  Sounds great until you read this paper that they threw at us:

http://www2.ife.ee.ethz.ch/~rolfz/batak/ICBR2003_Zinniker.pdf

that does actually claim that SOME batteries contain over 80% of usuable energy left (and actually using accepted scientific principles)

Actually I downloaded the paper and read it. Aside from many grammatical and spelling errors (I assume due to some bad translation) the paper is not very scientific at all. The references are not scientific studies either. There are a few graphs and tables but honestly, this is NOT a scientific paper written by any scientist. This is not even a Masters thesis. It looks like a high-school science project. I've written better papers and studies in 1st year university Physics.

While there may be some validity to the "recycling" study, I am highly skeptical of the actual testing method used to check the batteries, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO history as to the consumer-use scenario for each of the batteries. So who really knows why they were thrown out?

The average consumer would just stick a Batteriser on the battery and it would yield little to no additional benefit to the battery+Batteriser IN THE SAME DEVICE. What the consumer must be educated about is DOWN-CYCLING batteries into lower-current-draining devices.... A step-down approach, WITHOUT any such Batteriser. That requires EDUCATION.... No device to sell at all.

So without addressing the REAL PROBLEM, people will just continue to throw out batteries from high-current drain devices like MOTORIZED TOYS (due to the significant voltage-drops below cutoff) with or without the Batteriser, when with a little education they will label those batteries and keep them handy for their REMOTE CONTROLS and KEYBOARDS and MICE.

 

[McBryce]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.
End of story!

And this guy was teaching EE classes?
I feel sorry for the students.

Well one of his students has already ruined his chances of ever getting a decent job by featuring in the video.

McBryce.

[FrankBuss]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

That would only be true, if the voltage is constant during this time as well.
But on the same picture he is showing the voltage going down.
So, it is not a constant power and therefore the area under the current curve can not be the energy.

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

[edy]

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser. The video did leave that taste in my mouth and taught us "newbies" a few things about voltage drops during current spikes, but still answered nothing about what happens in real products and what the Batteriser can magically do to the voltage and current that actually makes it last any longer.

[Fungus]

How is it possible, that a guy with a Ph.D. can show a constant current over time and calls the area under the curve the energy?

He doesn't say this. He tries a lot of unrelated weaselspeak. At 9:25 he says "if you really want to know how much is left". He doesn't say "how much energy is left". And of course, for 100 mA constant current, he is right. 50% runtime is left.

Yes, it's a really convoluted thought process. It is technically correct but:

a) Constant current devices will actually waste a LOT of energy if used with a batteriser - the voltage applied to the device will be higher than it needs to be and the excess voltage will be turned directly to heat.

b) His "50%" number is pulled directly from a monkey's butt. He just drew a line on the middle of the chart and said "Look! That's 50% remaining".

If he drew then line at a realistic voltage (eg.) 1.1V then he'd be down in the "about 10% remaining" range, just like before.

[Fungus]

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

Think of a 5V voltage regulator (LM7805) feeding into a 100 Ohm resistor. The output current will be 50mA no matter what the input voltage is (so long as you stay within the working voltage range, obviously). Changes in voltage will only change the amount of heat produced by the regulator.

That's constant current.

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice.

I got the snail problem right with half a second of thought.

[FrankBuss]

PS: I just noticed that at 9:16 in the video he says, "if you use a constant resistor, you can use the area under the curve", which is wrong, because the curve is for constant current, and when the voltage drops, the current would drop, too with a constant resistor.

V=IR

V/I = R = constant....    V and I would vary proportionally to keep resistance the same?

Yes, you could say this. V drops over time and then the current drops, too, because I=V/R, so you can't use the curve on the whiteboard, which is for 100 mA constant current. Even a programmer like me can see this

I watched the video and I have no idea what he is saying, except the Snail problem was nice. What it has to do with anything, I don't know. But he just wants to show how "smart" he is, and how dumb the viewers are who don't get the right answer..... Ergo.... You, the average person viewing his video, who doesn't have 500 patents and can't solve a simple Snail riddle, is not as intelligent and shouldn't be questioning the Batteriser.

Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.

[5ky]

Don't worry, their Tom Foolery won't do much against real world testing with the batteriser once they ship the campaign rewards out.

I chose one with a large number of batterisers, and am planning to mail Dave some to play around with.  (Assuming he didn't already support their campaign himself with the same goal of disproving their bullshit 80% claim)

And IIRC, the level I choose gives me a pretty healthy number of units, so if any serious folks out there want in on the fun, let me know and I can mail a set your way.  (well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be)

[Fungus]

Update: The comments have been re-enabled on the video. My question came back!

[apis]

well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be

If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?

[apis]

Better watch Dave's videos to learn things. The Batteriser guy intentionally demonstrates lots of unrelated things in a convoluted way to avoid showing the Batteriser data.

Yes, except for the first 5 min where Dr. Bob tells us his resume and how many patents he has his name on, it was 40 minutes of confusing pointless waffling, even if mostly technically correct (still not sure about the energy under the graph part). Nothing at all about the performance or construction of the batteriser itself.

[Fungus]

well, once they mail them out, whenever that will be

If they mail them out at all... is there even a guarantees for that on indiegogo?

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

[apis]

I don't think there's a garantee of that on any crowdfunding site.

Can't you even get a refund in that case?