EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!

[Gary350z]

Latest Solar Roadways webcam screen capture. Looks like they fixed the broken panels.

[tszaboo]

Business plan:
1) have an unpractical, but cool idea, that is from a  sci-fi, and seems possible
2) get government funding
3) confuse the data

[rrinker]

Laminating of PCB's isn't the same like laminating a sheet of paper.
Think of it as "fill everything with potting compound."

But there is a little trap:
Some of the compound gets really hot.
Like damage the IC / LED's hot.

Some of them shrink & sheer of the components

Some of them dissolve the copper and other components.
(I found that out after building my own LED-bulb with screw-socket 15 years ago. Using silicone that contains vinegar was no good decision)


Another Problem is trapped air.
If you don't use a vacuum chamber during the laminating, you'll get air bubbles like shown in the video.
Normally they don't get that big. Even when you don't use a vacuum chamber. I don't knew how they manage to get this big air bubbles.

 You can get big air bubbles in many of those types of compounds by being in too much of a hurry - mixing too fast results in lots of tiny bubbles that can migrate together to form a big bubble, and so can pouring the stuff into the mold too fast. Various epoxy resins used to model water have this same problem, you are always cautioned to mix very slowly and not to agitate things too much to prevent bubbles. The modeling ones, you can often draw off small bubbles by heating the surface as it cures. Seems like they were in a hurry to get these panels out the door and I'll bet the skimped on the process somewhere to speed things up and the damage and bubbles are the result.
 I also have the feeling these are the first ones they made that are supposed to be actually working - I said earlier I have doubts that the ones they used for the tractor parking on top test actually had working solar cells in them - hence no solar energy collection data. It was just to prove you could park a lightweight tractor on top of the material without damage (relatively light - that tractor is much heavier than my lawn tractor, but it's nothing relative to actual highway traffic these things would have to withstand). It's bad enough when the whole concept is demonstrably unviable, but when the company championing the concept and with all the money raised can't produce, we have bigger problems. There's no reason this shouldn't work - just poorly compared to rooftop solar.

[EEVblog]

Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop? Looking at it from that perspective it kind of make more sense to use the large space that is available as public roads vs the one that you have to get loads of paperwork for, and may never be able to do on certain buildings. The roof space is more limited than the roads around the city as well.
It's just a thought and I'd love some input.

A good question.
It comes down to ease of access first, and then legislation and/or incentivisation.
You of course start with all public buildings, train stations, bus depots, local council buildings and other infrastructure etc.
Once that is exhausted then you can legislate that say all new buildings must allow panels on the roof for the community good. e.g. in Sydney all new houses must meet basic sustainability requirements, e.g. a water tank, efficient lights and aircons, insulation etc. If you don't meet it, you can't build your house.
Could start with say strata units and commercial office towers instead of homes, and hardly anyone would complain.
Then if if you are doing it for the community good and the government doesn't want to own the solar infrastructure then you simply offer incentives (feed in tarrifs etc) for owners to install systems. They did this here in Oz and offered 60c feed-in tarrif and the country went nuts, the plan was oversubscribed many times over. Because of that over 15% or something of oz houses now have solar power.

[tszaboo]

Then if if you are doing it for the community good and the government doesn't want to own the solar infrastructure then you simply offer incentives (feed in tarrifs etc) for owners to install systems. They did this here in Oz and offered 60c feed-in tarrif and the country went nuts, the plan was oversubscribed many times over. Because of that over 15% or something of oz houses now have solar power.

I'm not sure, if you are saying it as a bad thing? Some people are against government incentives, saying that otherwise solar would not be viable, and it is a bad way to spend money...
But I think it cannot be further away from the truth. The government spent some money, to help people build solar panels. They stay, they work for 30+ years, reduce pollution, etc. You know this. Now, why is it bad that government spends money on a good cause? They could have reduced the tax on power, instead they spent it on a long term solution. Sure, they could have spent it to build huge solar power plants, 'stralia is huge, and empty. But then again, they spent the money to educate the people, make them more environmental conscious.
Probably whoever did not install, payed more for electricity. It is a shenanigan. Imagine running a shenanigan to slow down global warming, stop wars for resources, make cleaner air.

[Fungus]

There's still no explanation for why Scott went there at 2am, took some readings by waving a gadget around above the panels, then decided to switch off four panels that were flashing their LEDs perfectly.

[StuUK]

There's still no explanation for why Scott went there at 2am, took some readings by waving a gadget around above the panels, then decided to switch off four panels that were flashing their LEDs perfectly.

They were sucking too much power from the sun... oh, hang on....

[R005T3r]

this is getting far from ridiculus  It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?

[jonovid]

american citizens are waking up to the politicians that waste money on white elephants.  or sick & dying donkeys 

[drussell]

I guess I don't want to believe that there are people so incompetent deciding on funding this kind of crap. Aren't there some kind of laws that require the projected to be ok-ed by a neutral EE or something like that?

Oh, how quaint that you haven't yet fully come to terms with the depth to which the money in the public purse is wasted... 

Less than $0.04 per kWh?

Yeah, it has been pretty reasonable this summer, though it does fluctuate due to fuel costs, obviously, since most of our provincial generation is coal or natural gas.  (Approximate generating capacity, in MW, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generating_stations_in_Alberta : )

5695 Coal
4459 Natural Gas
1027 Wind
908 Hydro
451 Biomass / Biogas / Waste Heat

How do I move to Canada??

You go through the immigration procedure, just like anyone else.   

We'd be happy to have you. 

It does tend to be a bit easier when you are coming from another Commonwealth country, though there is no longer any special treatment / fast-track system.

Here in overpriced, under reliable South Australia (the Blackout State) were paying $0.30 per kWh.

That's the price of subsidised green power for you....

Yeah, no doubt!...  You're getting screwed.
And to think that I find running my server room gets expensive when it spikes up to 10 cents or more... 

Seriously, though, a huge chunk of the cost we pay here and elsewhere is tax.  Someone is raking in a HUGE chunk of change and it isn't the power generators and not usually the distributors... 

$2000 depending upon who you ask 

Yeah, that is going to be one a pretty pitiful return on investment for your power generating dollar.

Only a little over 2300 years to break even!  (Not including installation, maintenance, etc. of course.) 

this is getting far from ridiculus  It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?

A few of them understand, yet even they don't care.

They can make it look good to the sheeple in the constituency who have no clue...

"LOOK!  We're doing GREEN stuff!  Future HOORAH!  Vote for US!!!"

[rrinker]

 This is why I just shake my head when someone goes on about the evil greedy oil companies. I suspect it's the same everywhere, but definitely here in the US, gas is actually VERY cheap, once you take off the state and Federal taxes. Some stations even post on the pumps that the price includes xx in taxes. The only reason the oil companies make huge profits is because people buy so much that even at a low profit margin, its a lot of money - a couple hundred billion pennies is actually some real money. It's all the taxes they suck off and for what? We still have crappy poorly maintained roads and pretty much nonexistent alternatives except in certain select cities. And yet millions get funneled into companies like these solar roadways idiots who buy up a lot of fancy big boy toys and still can't produce a working product - even an inefficient, but working, product.

[Bud]

this is getting far from ridiculus  It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?

You do not get it. This is a convenient way for to bury (no pun intended) taxpayers money. My bet is not all of reported money went to the guy.

[jonovid]

A final word on how to max out PV solar panels, if solar is your thing?    have not seen this type panel but its got to be a better design then road solar panels. its the concept of roof-top motorized Sun tracking solar Louvers. 

tilting tracking solar panels time of the day
http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-trackers/
Solar trackers

[EEVblog]

They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! 
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

[R005T3r]

Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...

Because the government , MDOT in this case, have a road technology initiative they have achieve. Projects like this look good on their books, no one checks for validity.

 
 At this point if this thing goes on, it's better if we bring it to the attention of the Scientific Community. This thing needs to be over in order to avoid an environmental disaster.

[Fungus]

They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! 
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?

[R005T3r]

*52.397kWh @ 16:32

Did they really laminate assembled PCB's and then be amazed they are almost all broken?
Like.. you're putting the whole stack through a freaking roller press. Didn't they use a pressure mold or something to distribute the pressure?

Their "step backwards" in engineering results suggest to me they maybe had some HR crisis and lost knowledge/IP as the result of that.

Not to mention, that you will neeed proper solder for that... Just imagine the normal traffic running on these things, you will have a lot of vibrations involved and joints will break if the material is not designed to work in these condition.

[coppice]

They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels! 
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?

Why would the output be a simple cosine function? Are you confusing output with insolation?

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

If you use a very simple model, it is a simple cosine function.
Insolation x Area x cos theta = instantaneous power incident with the panel.
Afaik this model is often used, with a few loss percentages tacked on.

Not saying it is the best way to calculate the daily or monthly energy but with a few more factors it is one way.

[Mr.B]

You have to pay for it

Generally you do have to pay for quality research data.
After all, it cost money to do the research in the first place.

But, more importantly, they are complaining about having to pay for it after receiving more than USD3M in funding!

[LabSpokane]

Guys, I'm thinking SolarRoadways is referencing the fact that the scientific paper is behind a paywall.

[max_torque]

"Prior to SR, no one had a reason to compare lying panels flat to various angles"

Really?  No one?

 

[Towger]

Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf

[Mr.B]

Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf

Wow!
All that free data and Solar Sidewalks still think they need to pour money into their own research.

Thanks for the link BTW.

[rrinker]

 Probably took them months to design their own data collection instrumentation, too.