[UK] Job ad: Wanted, electronic engineer

[IanB]

Major companies will usually expect a list of names and a paragraph of resume on a serious proposal.

::Nod:: Quite familiar with this.

again, not in my experience (which is all US based, half in the boston area and half in silicon valley).

it sounds like this is very cultural and varies a lot based on which country and which field you are in.  like I said before in my last post, in all my years doing software, not once has any client ever tried to get info about the people that were assigned to his project or product.  I would not even feel right - if I was a customer - asking about the personnel and their backgrounds.  it would be an insult and its just not done!

This says a lot about the clients. For instance, if you were hiring a builder to do some work on your house, would you just hire someone who said "hey, I can do this"? Wouldn't you ask for references, talk to previous customers, look at examples of their work, make sure they are properly licensed and qualified to do such work?

If not, more fool you.

[linux-works]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

I'll ask questions on contractors, but I'm NOT going to ask for 'what school did you go to'.  not once, not ever, not for any field where I would hire someone (that would work for me).

I've always thought that was a double standard.  seeking jobs in engineering, the companies want to know about my degrees, but if I seek a doctor, its just NOT DONE - to ask for their quals.

so, ymmv (seems regional, at least) but the only time I've been asked about my degrees is at point of hire into a job.  once I'm hired, its no one's business (esp. not clients!) what my exact background is.

I find it very odd that people think they have a right to invade employees backgrounds, even to that (light) level.  the company hires you and its their job to select good people.  a step disconnected from that is when a client hires a company.  he selects that company based on what he thinks they can do, but prying INSIDE the company just seems outright wrong and way too micro-managing to me.

[KJDS]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

I'll ask questions on contractors, but I'm NOT going to ask for 'what school did you go to'.  not once, not ever, not for any field where I would hire someone (that would work for me).

I've always thought that was a double standard.  seeking jobs in engineering, the companies want to know about my degrees, but if I seek a doctor, its just NOT DONE - to ask for their quals.

so, ymmv (seems regional, at least) but the only time I've been asked about my degrees is at point of hire into a job.  once I'm hired, its no one's business (esp. not clients!) what my exact background is.

I find it very odd that people think they have a right to invade employees backgrounds, even to that (light) level.  the company hires you and its their job to select good people.  a step disconnected from that is when a client hires a company.  he selects that company based on what he thinks they can do, but prying INSIDE the company just seems outright wrong and way too micro-managing to me.

In the UK it is illegal to work as a solicitor, barrister or medical doctor without the appropriate qualifications, and that applies to many other professions as well, though not for an engineer.

A quick check on the law society website will help you find someone with the right qualifications and specialization. If I'm paying for a professional service I may well want some evidence of what level of service I'm going to get. That doesn't mean that I'd only ever want to employ a degree qualified engineer, I've worked with some brilliant people who haven't got degrees, but it's perfectly reasonable to know who you are doing business with.

[Galenbo]

our industries must be very different.  in my 30+ yrs working as a software devel, not ONCE has anyone ever asked me about my degrees while ON the job. 

Indeed a very different industry.

In software, there are 14-year kids that are better programmers than 99% of the ones who hold a master, people who leave college to start up a multimillion business.
This simply doesn't happen in the traditional industry. Like designing and installing a test plant for airplane jet engines.

Search the reason, and why this also defines al other differences.

But I see many software-world people getting a Cisco, Prince2, McsE, Itil or other certification. I'm sure this is mentioned in selling the software project: Customer, you will get people with xxx certification.

that's it.  you don't get to see inside the company.  that's our business, not yours.

Good for developing the next app for some event-sales-related customer happyness.

Definitely not if you work for the military, medical, energy or safety related customer.

[KJDS]

I've worked with a few managers that really need to be certified.

[linux-works]

But I see many software-world people getting a Cisco, Prince2, McsE, Itil or other certification. I'm sure this is mentioned in selling the software project: Customer, you will get people with xxx certification.

interesting.  I just finished a gig at cisco and, again, I've never seen any customer ask for anyone's quals in our team; or heard of this happening at all, for anyone that I've worked with at cisco.

agreed that having some certs will help you get hired into a company.  after you are hired, though, folks in my field never again ask what your background was.  interviewing sucks badly enough as it is; why go thru it more than once per company?  lol

[grumpydoc]

In the UK it is illegal to work as a solicitor, barrister or medical doctor without the appropriate qualifications.

For medicine, sadly, anybody can call themselves "Doctor" and even treat people. It is assumed that adults have capacity to choose wisely.

The legally protected title is "registered medical practitioner".

Interestingly it is illegal to practice as a vet or treat animals in any capacity without a recognised qialification.

[linux-works]

do they retest doctors (etc)?

if they don't, then what he did 10, 20 or 30 yrs ago may not be totally relevant today.  mostly, but quite a lot has changed.

I could say the same thing about my field, software: who cares what I did 20 or 30 yrs ago in school.  its all different now (it was fortran and pascal for me, during my day.  mostly those are dead languages - mostly - today).  sure, algs and data struct are mostly the same, but a lot has changed since the old days.

so, doctors don't need to keep proving themselves (do they?).  I'm pretty sure lawyers don't have to keep taking tests to stay current in their field.  no one asks those guys to demonstrate -current- knowledge.  but everyone doubts engineers and those guys have to keep proving themselves.

sure seems like a double standard to me.

[IanB]

I'm pretty sure lawyers don't have to keep taking tests to stay current in their field.

In the U.S. they do. In most states attorneys are required to undertake continuing legal education in order to maintain their license to practice.

[miguelvp]

A list of achievements, degrees, qualifications etc is very common for companies that are still young and might rely in investing money to keep them afloat while they get to a break even point.

No serious investor is going to bet their capital without knowing details of the people working in there.

I'm not saying that startups that need investment capital is a good approach, but sometimes it's the only way to jump into a field that already has competition. You have to be big enough to compete so a gradual growth might not be feasible at all and they might need to staff and acquire equipment so that they'll be competitive from the get go.

I did work for startups before and sure enough on their investing offerings they will list those qualifications and achievements of all key individuals to ease the investor's mind.

[Howardlong]

Yes, those are intereating phenomena. But any halfway decent interviewing process should be able to weed out such slackers - it isn't rocket science (except to HR droids that seem to value teamwork and shyness above all else).

Indeed, and I am not sure exactly when it was that HR (it was Personel when I started) became so omnipotent.

The very acronym, "Human Resources", tells you that you're nothing more than a commodity. The way many approach appraisals and enforced churn rates tells you that too.

[Yago]

Yes, those are intereating phenomena. But any halfway decent interviewing process should be able to weed out such slackers - it isn't rocket science (except to HR droids that seem to value teamwork and shyness above all else).

Indeed, and I am not sure exactly when it was that HR (it was Personel when I started) became so omnipotent.

The very acronym, "Human Resources", tells you that you're nothing more than a commodity. The way many approach appraisals and enforced churn rates tells you that too.

When I worked at GEC the HR guy that interviewed me had a degree in Geography FFS.
He was a also a lying little shit.
I left the place quickly, it was a terrible "lab" and  terrible job, only regret is I never got the chance to "re-educate" that dishonest person.

[tggzzz]

Yes, those are intereating phenomena. But any halfway decent interviewing process should be able to weed out such slackers - it isn't rocket science (except to HR droids that seem to value teamwork and shyness above all else).

Indeed, and I am not sure exactly when it was that HR (it was Personel when I started) became so omnipotent.

The very acronym, "Human Resources", tells you that you're nothing more than a commodity. The way many approach appraisals and enforced churn rates tells you that too.

When I worked at GEC the HR guy that interviewed me had a degree in Geography FFS.
He was a also a lying little shit.
I left the place quickly, it was a terrible "lab" and  terrible job, only regret is I never got the chance to "re-educate" that dishonest person.

During the university milk round I applied to ~6 GEC establishments, was offered interviews at 9, an was offered jobs at establishments I hadn't visited. At one place employees made comments to the effect "... and I'm sure you will be getting offers from other companies..."; I listened, heard, and understood

A few years later I applied to another GEC establishment. The droid "listened" to what I had done in terms of analogue, digital and software, and then asked me whether "I was reaily hardware or software engineer". The questions he asked were designed to find out how little money I would accept, not what would encourage me to be a valuable employee.

I never applied to another GEC company.

[Howardlong]

As a general rule of thumb, HR are little more than self-serving box tickers. Quite what value they think they add by interviewing an individual is beyond me.

[grumpydoc]

do they retest doctors (etc)?

if they don't [........]

so, doctors don't need to keep proving themselves (do they?).  I'm pretty sure lawyers don't have to keep taking tests to stay current in their field.  no one asks those guys to demonstrate -current- knowledge.  but everyone doubts engineers and those guys have to keep proving themselves.

sure seems like a double standard to me.

Doctors in the UK (as in all 1st world healthcare systems) have to gain their degree, then undergo a long (typically 10+ years) period of additional training and accumulation of experience. Part of this is further qualifications, usually to the level of a PhD or equivalent before being allowed to "fly solo" (i.e be the clinician "in charge" of a patient's care). They then have to demonstrate a minimum amount of continued professional development and education and, now, a 5-yearly scrutinisation process by the GMC.

Solicitors don't have quite such arduous requirements but are required to do a minimum amount of continued professional development and are also closely scrutinised by their regulatory authorities.

Double standards indeed.

[tggzzz]

As a general rule of thumb, HR are little more than self-serving box tickers. Quite what value they think they add by interviewing an individual is beyond me.

A1: more than they actually do contribute.
A2: if they are lucky, they stop managers doing something illegal that causes the company to be sued.

[tggzzz]

do they retest doctors (etc)?

if they don't [........]

so, doctors don't need to keep proving themselves (do they?).  I'm pretty sure lawyers don't have to keep taking tests to stay current in their field.  no one asks those guys to demonstrate -current- knowledge.  but everyone doubts engineers and those guys have to keep proving themselves.

sure seems like a double standard to me.

Doctors in the UK (as in all 1st world healthcare systems) have to gain their degree, then undergo a long (typically 10+ years) period of additional training and accumulation of experience. Part of this is further qualifications, usually to the level of a PhD or equivalent before being allowed to "fly solo" (i.e be the clinician "in charge" of a patient's care). They then have to demonstrate a minimum amount of continued professional development and education and, now, a 5-yearly scrutinisation process by the GMC.

You are being insufficiently grumpy, especially in the light of today's news reports such as http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-31048279

[zapta]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

I try to avoid medical doctors that don't have a college degree, especially when it comes to complex surgeries.

[tggzzz]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

As far as possible, yes.

The last time was in November just before emergency surgery on my knee. I asked the consultant how many of these injuries they saw and operated on per year. the answer was satisfactory.

[GreyWoolfe]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

I try to avoid medical doctors that don't have a college degree, especially when it comes to complex surgeries.

So, are you trying to say that you would never go to Joe's Tire Center, Hair Care Products and Surgery Center?     Come on down, you can get your tires rotated, you favorite shampoo and your knees replaced all in 1 simple visit.

[linux-works]

let me ask you: you need to see a doctor (say); do you interview them?  do you ask them tech questions to see if they are 'real'?  do you ask for their degrees and grades?  how about lawyers?  how about other professionals?

As far as possible, yes.

The last time was in November just before emergency surgery on my knee. I asked the consultant how many of these injuries they saw and operated on per year. the answer was satisfactory.

uhm, that's not an interview or a competancy test.  that's just a sanity check, at best.

everytime I go for a job interview, I get the same grilling and 'we dont believe you until you show us otherwise' treatment.  in contrast, I just don't see that being done to other professional fields.  for some reason, hw and sw are 'special' (and not in a good way).

[nanofrog]

So, are you trying to say that you would never go to Joe's Tire Center, Hair Care Products and Surgery Center?   

Coming to a store near you. 

Laughing aside, businesses like that may actually become a necessity for sufficient income. 

everytime I go for a job interview, I get the same grilling and 'we dont believe you until you show us otherwise' treatment.  in contrast, I just don't see that being done to other professional fields.  for some reason, hw and sw are 'special' (and not in a good way).

I've experienced this as well, specifically through HR departments. Yet when I managed to bypass HR, it's not been an issue.

[tom66]

When I did my job interview for my hardware placement, the HR lady basically asked when I'd be available and how long for, I chatted to the other two engineers for the rest of the interview, it was great. I'm sure that's fairly rare though.

[KJDS]

I love contracting, don't have to deal with HR at all.

[Howardlong]

I love contracting, don't have to deal with HR at all.

+1!

No appraisal bollocks either, and minimal politics.

However at the last place I contracted at, I still had to go through a full disclosure check. It was unnecessary, I'd already done another year long contract for the same outfit eighteen month earlier, but it ticked a few boxes for the HR department. I did get rather PO'd when I realised that the when I completed the online form for the disclosure check, including all my personal details, passport, driving license details etc, that the credentials to access all that information was then sent in an automated email in clear text in an email over the internet. Not cool.