Author Topic: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?  (Read 19894 times)

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Offline Connecteur

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It may or may not be illegal (depending on the country) to discriminate against color-blindness, but I doubt many employers would be comfortable with an employee who can't read resistors or trace colored wires.  I suspect (as with age-discrimination) other reasons are cited for passing over a potential employee in the hiring process.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:49:04 am by Connecteur »
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 03:46:58 am »
You are asking a question at law without indicating which country's laws.   The answer is simple: it depends.

John
 

Offline JacobPilsen

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 04:09:57 am »
Imagine 64 year old coalminer.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 04:17:37 am »
If if doesn't hinder the job, then I would assume it is not really legal, at least not ethical to discriminate color blind people.
If the job is to assemble PCB, or to repair PCB that really requires reading color codes, then I would say it makes sense to discriminate color blind people.
The same thing to age discrimination. Not hiring a 50-year old in a supermarket is not legal, at least not ethical, but not hiring a 50-year old in a SWAT team makes perfect sense.
 

Offline Connecteur

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 04:19:36 am »
If if doesn't hinder the job, then I would assume it is not really legal, at least not ethical to discriminate color blind people.
If the job is to assemble PCB, or to repair PCB that really requires reading color codes, then I would say it makes sense to discriminate color blind people.
The same thing to age discrimination. Not hiring a 50-year old in a supermarket is not legal, at least not ethical, but not hiring a 50-year old in a SWAT team makes perfect sense.
I wasn't very clear whether I meant "right" or "legal right."  Regardless of laws, do employers have a right?
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 04:19:52 am »
In the UK.

I don't think any law would make an employer take someone who was at risk of not being able to do a job safely or endangering colleagues/clients etc.

As an employer you have to make reasonable adjustments to enable someone to do a job and you're not allowed to discriminate on grounds of disability at interview/advertisement stage but giving all candidates a practical test to assess their abilities and knowledge is perfectly reasonable.

If there is no way to make those reasonable adjustments then it's simply not possible to employ that person and while it could be tricky if they were litigous they'd have a hard time proving it unfair in court, that's what you (should) have insurance for.

To have the employer obligated to make those reasonable adjustments an employee would have to declare any disabilities they want adjustments made for at time of employment.

In the UK armed forces it would be an immediate rejection if you are colour blind.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 04:30:00 am »
I've never heard of an employer concerned about whether their employees can read resistors.

Kids don't even learn that, anyway.

Who even uses through-hole resistors anymore?

And you can't read the damn chip resistors.  You don't need to, nor do you want to: you shove the labeled reels into the pick-and-place and let it do your job at a fraction of the hassle and cost!

Anecdote: had a coworker with R-G ambiguity.  He got on just fine.  Usually used a meter to check resistors, when he had to (breadboarding and prototypes).  Since we were also doing UI design in that cell, his input was quite valuable, from time to time -- it is good UI design to change, not just the color between objects, but the intensity, or style or face, too.  This makes your UI unambiguous for the most possible users.

Now that I've mentioned it -- quick quiz: how many websites have you seen, just today, which have ghostly gray text on a gray-white background?  (Most offending websites are trying to be "trendy", but they break the style rules of those they would try to emulate, such as Apple.  Apple frequently violates their own design rules, by using less-than-preferred contrast levels!)

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Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 04:37:09 am »
I wasn't very clear whether I meant "right" or "legal right."  Regardless of laws, do employers have a right?

I'm biased, so don't quote me on this.
Personally I don't believe in the human right thing. I believe one has rights only if he has the power to practice his rights.
In other words, if one can prove to the society that he can do some contribution, then the society should treat him well. If he can't show his merit to other people, no one is obligated to give him anything.
Had I have any color disability, I would not apply for a PCB related job at the first place.

Also, even if there is a law preventing this, there are lots of loopholes. For instance, the employer can't just tell the applicant to f* off because of disability, but he can set up a test to rule out people he doesn't like, and it is perfectly legitimate.
If one really wants, there are always bugs to exploit in legal system, and as long as you have money to pay lawyers (at least more than the money the applicant pays his lawyers), I see no reason why an employer can't do this.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 04:38:02 am »
It may or may not be illegal (depending on the country) to discriminate against color-blindness, but I doubt many employers would be comfortable with an employee who can't read resistors or trace colored wires.  I suspect (as with age-discrimination) other reasons are cited for passing over a potential employee in the hiring process.
You are allowed to refuse a job to someone who can't do it, for whatever reason. I've worked with a number of colour blind engineers, and in the days of colour banded resistors and capacitors it could be a pain having parts shoved under your nose every few minutes, and being asked for their value :). I've never heard of anyone being refused employment because of this, though. On the other hand if you are hiring someone for a job involving the assessment of image quality, colour blindness might make a candidate utterly unsuitable.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 04:40:33 am »
Most colour blindness is very minor. My own case in point I have no trouble with resistor colour codes or wiring at all, but when I was 10 the school nurse diagnosed me as red/green colourblind and told my mum "not to worry, it just means he can't work in electronics when he's older" as if that was just a triviality! Sorry but this enraged me seeing as electronics was my hobby and the profession I wanted.

My electronics teacher in secondary school was extremely colour blind - IIRC he could only see everything in B&W and shades of blue.

Having said that, my colour blindness hasn't been an issue whatsoever in previous jobs. I imagine it would be for the military though, they are sticklers for such stuff.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2016, 04:51:21 am »
I would say it depends on the work and the employer but I think yes they do have a right to discriminate. When I was a student back in the early 80's two of us got a six month placement at a defence establishment. On the first day we both had a medical exam, nothing rigorous, they just checked reflexes and a colour blindness test. That afternoon I wondered where my mate had got to, apparently he was colour blind and he didn't even know it, so it couldn't have been that bad but they sent him home on his first day.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2016, 04:59:52 am »
If if doesn't hinder the job, then I would assume it is not really legal, at least not ethical to discriminate color blind people.
If the job is to assemble PCB, or to repair PCB that really requires reading color codes, then I would say it makes sense to discriminate color blind people.
The same thing to age discrimination. Not hiring a 50-year old in a supermarket is not legal, at least not ethical, but not hiring a 50-year old in a SWAT team makes perfect sense.
I wasn't very clear whether I meant "right" or "legal right." Regardless of laws, do employers have a right?

Again, with the stipulation "regardless of laws," employers always have a "right" to discriminate against employees for any reason whatsoever.   They don't even need a reason.  It is called the "Golden Rule."

Second, non-color-blind people often have a serious misconception of that disability.   It is extremely rare for a person to lack all cones and to be truly "color blind."   In reality, "color blind" people see colors, but the colors and shades are different.   That condition can be detected by tests that use mixtures of colors.

I have known several color blind people, including my father.  Every one of them did quite well with adapting to their condition.   Of course, everything in our home was painted either brown or white. ;D

More seriously, early in my career, a mentor was R/G color blind.  Nevertheless, he was one of the best people I have known at reading a Gram stain, which is basically orange-red (eosin) and blue plus shape.  For many years, however, laboratory accrediting agencies required testing for color blindness.  Eventually, they caught on to the fact that color blind people really are not blind to color and there was no reason to continue that practice of testing as a requirement.

So, does anyone know whether a color blind person can read resistor codes? (Consider only the most common type of R/G color blindness.)  Do they find it easier or harder to distinguish violet from brown than a non-color blind person?  Frankly, I pull out the ohmmeter to do that, and I am not color blind.

As for legality in the USA, it is generally illegal do discriminate against an employee with any disability so long as that disability does not affect job performance after "reasonable accommodation" has been made. I suspect providing the employee with an ohmmeter is well within what would be considered reasonable accommodation.

John

 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2016, 05:06:46 am »
Second, non-color-blind people often have a serious misconception of that disability.   It is extremely rare for a person to lack all cones and to be truly "color blind."   In reality, "color blind" people see colors, but the colors and shades are different.   That condition can be detected by tests that use mixtures of colors.

To see how some common forms of colour blindness affect colour vision, you can upload a photo of your own to http://www.etre.com/tools/colourblindsimulator/
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2016, 05:17:33 am »
If if doesn't hinder the job, then I would assume it is not really legal, at least not ethical to discriminate color blind people.
If the job is to assemble PCB, or to repair PCB that really requires reading color codes, then I would say it makes sense to discriminate color blind people.
The same thing to age discrimination. Not hiring a 50-year old in a supermarket is not legal, at least not ethical, but not hiring a 50-year old in a SWAT team makes perfect sense.
THREE THINGS

- there is such a thing as an ohmmeter. that can be used to establish the value of a resistor
- most electronics is surface mounted : by bye color code...
- burnt resistors are typically uniformly black ... no trace of color code remaining so good luck finding out what it was.

so the discussion ' needs to read color code to repair' is useless....
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Connecteur

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2016, 05:18:54 am »
What about tracing colored wires?
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2016, 05:35:47 am »
In NZ if colour vision was a valid requirement of the job then yes you could be rejected, if not it would be illegal to do so on that basis.  It would be tough to show it was  required  in electronics I think.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 05:37:33 am by sleemanj »
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2016, 05:42:17 am »
I really doubt that you could single out color blindness as an issue for electronics related jobs (with the possible exception of jobs relating to color displays).  While color blindness can be an impediment for tracing color coded wires and older color coded components it is not the dominant skill used in troubleshooting, assembly or repair.  Demonstrating that someone who was colorblind but knowledgeable, skilled and intuitive in troubleshooting was less capable than someone with color vision but lacking in one or more of the other three areas would be somewhere between difficult and impossible.

The real question, which in the US is largely ignored, is similar to the point posed by Blueskull.  How inferior does someone's total skill package have to be before you are justified legally and ethically in letting them go (or not hiring them in the first place).  What is the metric?  Nearly everyone is disabled in some sense: less than perfect vision, physical skills, intelligence, training, endurance, language skills, the list goes on. 

Extreme examples point out the problem.  Stephen Hawking is so physically limited that he not only requires many mechanical supports, but requires significant other human support to function.  But he is so brilliant that the total package is worth it.   Other folks with different sets of abilities and limitations may not provide so obvious an answer.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2016, 05:46:28 am »
What about tracing colored wires?
It makes no difference to me. Wire colours are distinct and easily identifiable. I'm supposed to be green colourblind but I can easily distinguish green from any other colour. I imagine I would have difficulty telling some exotic Pantone shades of greenish-yellow from each other but I guess non colour blind people would too.
 

Offline andy_silicon

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2016, 08:41:11 pm »
When I was a youngster .... my first full time job was an engineer at the BBC.

After the initial interview I was tested for colour blindness and hearing problems.

Seems sensible that a colour blind engineer was not a good choice in the TV industry.
( I not so old that it was pre colour television )
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2016, 08:53:03 pm »
Valid discrimination of color blindness can only be justified if there are requirements on vision in general.

Meanwhile, the question has not been asked yet: what color is this:P
 

Offline timb

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 11:10:05 pm »
Valid discrimination of color blindness can only be justified if there are requirements on vision in general.

Meanwhile, the question has not been asked yet: what color is this:P

Orange you glad I'm not color blind?
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Online BradC

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2016, 11:37:39 pm »
What about tracing colored wires?
It makes no difference to me. Wire colours are distinct and easily identifiable. I'm supposed to be green colourblind but I can easily distinguish green from any other colour.

One of my mates is blue-green colourblind, and I've had to help him out here and there. If it's a severe case (and his is), it *can* make a significant difference, particularly when wiring up mains leads. Green/yellow striped earths have been a godsend, but you don't always get that.
Just one example.

I remember being subjected to a number of colour discrimination tests when I started my apprenticeship. Guys who didn't meet the requirements were never allowed to do mains work.
 

Online BradC

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2016, 11:38:59 pm »
Meanwhile, the question has not been asked yet: what color is this:P

According to the markup tag, wot ^^ 'e said :)
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 12:02:14 pm »
It may or may not be illegal (depending on the country) to discriminate against color-blindness, but I doubt many employers would be comfortable with an employee who can't read resistors or trace colored wires.  I suspect (as with age-discrimination) other reasons are cited for passing over a potential employee in the hiring process.

 Well I can tell you from my experience in the U.S. Air Force in the mid 60s, that you couldn't qualify for any of the many different electronics training course unless first passing a color blindness test. Not sure how selective/accurate the test was but it was a requirement that the government as employer applied.

 Not sure if it is still a requirement but if it is, it should then apply that any employer using a similar test and justification could also require the same from their prospective employees.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2016, 12:17:10 am »
I would imagine the selection criteria for aerospace would be a bit tougher.  Aircraft and spacecraft can't exactly pull over to the side of the road if something goes wrong.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2016, 12:29:34 am »
It may or may not be illegal (depending on the country) to discriminate against color-blindness, but I doubt many employers would be comfortable with an employee who can't read resistors or trace colored wires.

Such "discrimination" is allowed in Australia, and rightly so. Many jobs have inherent physical and ability requirements.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12073
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12052
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 12:32:52 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2016, 12:41:22 am »
It may or may not be illegal (depending on the country) to discriminate against color-blindness, but I doubt many employers would be comfortable with an employee who can't read resistors or trace colored wires.

Such "discrimination" is allowed in Australia, and rightly so.

s/allowed/required/
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Offline KD0CAC John

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2016, 02:05:26 am »
Part of this is what I call MAGIC THINKING .
I'l start with 1973 going into the army and signing up for training I wanted , radio relay technician .
After being in bootcamp for some weeks , the paperwork came to a head - my physical & MOS = training .
I never new until this time , the physical showed I was lightly color blind red / green as I remember , so did not qualify and got out after bootcamp on breach of contract by army , because the school I signed for came before the physical .
Now I am a ham radio and find broken stuff & learn how to fix it , use it , or sell to get the next thing of interest .
I did discover that using several different types of lighting & magnification help bring out the correct colors , but I always use a meter to check values & group the parts on double sided tape on paper that I make notes on .
Now on the magic thinking part - in around the mid 80's , I started a new line of work , law enforcement mostly in northern & central California area , a bunch of departments had been infected with MAGIC THINKING , the normal process was all kinds of testing , and in this case physical agility testing , climbing walls , spring loaded dummies - to see if you could pull arms back from behind to be able to handcuff and other upper body strength tests .
Many dept. were eliminating tests that required upper body strength , in order to make it easier for women to qualify = MAGIC THINKING , some dept. totally eliminated the physical agility tests all together .
So there is no accounting for the stupidity / insanity of people , institutions etc.
If you can't do the job , then find a job you can do , SCREW THE MAGIC .
About the same time I read the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle that they were eliminating the test for pulling the ladder off the top of fire engine , so magical thinkers could apply - you better not live above the ground floor , even then your in danger , another test - carrying the 150 lb dummy  - WHAT THE HELL         
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 07:05:39 am by KD0CAC John »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2016, 04:19:26 pm »
In the US at least under federal law, color blindness is not included in any protected class (as far as I now) so it is completely legal to discriminate against color blind people.

I heard an interesting electronics related story about this.  Xcelite is known for making screwdriver sets with color coded plastic handles to identify size.  What they did not know until later is that color blindness for males in technical professions is significantly *higher* than in the general population.
 

Offline zl2wrw

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2016, 05:54:37 pm »
A long time ago, when I took an apprenticeship as an electrician, I was tested for colour-blindness - twice! (once by the polytech and again by the industry training organisation). Here in New Zealand we have lots of fixed wiring with Red for phase/L1 and Green for earth. I understand that in the EU they get around Red-Green colour blindness by using Brown/Black/Grey for phases, Blue for neutral and Green/Yellow for PE.

[SNIP] but not hiring a 50-year old in a SWAT team makes perfect sense.

That depends, for example, if you were on a SWAT team, a 50-year old that is calm under pressure, is not easily bored/can pay attention for a long time, and is a crack shot, sounds like the sort of colleague that you would want 200m away on a rooftop watching your back while you post the flash-bang in the window...
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2016, 07:03:51 pm »
I need to get some color coded screwdrivers, i always keep picking up the wrong one as the handles on mine are almost all the same, at least to tell apart philips and flathead.

I was given a vision test that included color blindness as part of a physical after signing up engineering school. I passed it fine, but it wasn't a case of if you don't pass you can't sign up, just more of a informational thing to tell you perhaps you might want to reconsider your profession.

I don't think slight color blindness would really hinder someone that much in electronics. But an almost completely color blind electrician is certainly a bad idea. Being able to see wire colors there is pretty important there and a mistake could end very badly, in death even.

There are other jobs where good vision is more important. TV broadcast engineers are certainly one, but there are also graphics designers, interior designers, artists, architects, video editors or simply the guy in china who quality controls TVs off a production line.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2016, 09:15:56 pm »
The QC of TVs for colour rendition is automated these days and has been for a while now, the only bit of the QC that's still, AFAIK, human is the cosmetic inspection of the TV for scratches.

As for magic thinking, not really. Sure there's a trend towards employing people who are seen as 'less physically able' than others but I can promise you, my 5'4", marathon running, skinny, little sister is *not* the sort of police officer you want to have to go up against, she's a member of a TAU and holds her own in riot gear with the 6'6" blokes, she's also pretty nifty at crowd control and effecting entry during raids, if I could share the details you'd be able to find youtube and local news video of her doing such.

She might not be able to shoulder carry me (6' 15.5St rugby player build) but she could sure as hell take me down if necessary and has commendations (and I'll be attending the ceremony for her latest one next week) for suchlike.
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2016, 09:28:13 pm »
Skipping the 150 lb dummy test I can understand. You'll need an 200 lb dummy nowadays.

A lot of professions have set money in front of moral.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2016, 02:00:43 am »
Magic thinking works both ways.  During the US Mercury manned space program the original astronaut candidates were run through myriads of tests.  Many of them had no known relationship to the performance requirements of being an astronaut.  Their actual purpose was to provide a justification for washing out some of the highly qualified, highly competitive candidates.  The battery of tests stayed in place and eventually began to justify themselves.

Standardized tests and requirements are always a substitute for thinking, with the obvious result.  Take the firefighting example.  There is clearly a benefit to being able to carry your fellow firefighters and/or victims out of a dangerous situation.  There would also be a benefit to being able to enter small spaces to look for victims or to reach shutoffs for gas and other fuels.  Writing a requirement to be able to carry a 180 lb person 50 yards might result from the first situation.  A requirement to fit through a specified small hole might result from the second.  The combination would result in an extraordinarily small pool of firefighters. 
 

Offline JacobPilsen

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2016, 03:00:25 am »
The QC of TVs for colour rendition is automated these days
Really???
Do You have any TV factory in UK ?

We have Changhong and Panasonic in CZ, and their QC is only "monkey see, monkey press button".
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2016, 03:28:02 am »
The QC of TVs for colour rendition is automated these days
Really???
Do You have any TV factory in UK ?

We have Changhong and Panasonic in CZ, and their QC is only "monkey see, monkey press button".

There is/was one up until very recently in the UK, Cello, I think they are still in business but I'd assume they don't manufacture TFT panels and are just assembling.

Test jigs I've seen are automatic but on the high end monitors/TVs there's a manual inspection as well.
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Offline @rt

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2017, 05:45:39 pm »
THere’s a job in Australia advertised on Seek right now “Fitting Model” for Mountain Designs.
They require you have their specified waist, neck, bust measurements, otherwise you wouldn’t be a fitting model for Medium standard.
 

Offline ptricks

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2017, 10:36:22 pm »


 Well I can tell you from my experience in the U.S. Air Force in the mid 60s, that you couldn't qualify for any of the many different electronics training course unless first passing a color blindness test. Not sure how selective/accurate the test was but it was a requirement that the government as employer applied.

 Not sure if it is still a requirement but if it is, it should then apply that any employer using a similar test and justification could also require the same from their prospective employees.

I joined the navy in 89 as a  aviation electronics tech and I can confirm you couldn't be color blind for that . The reason was simple, not resistor coloring but wires and even terminals were often color coded .

Don't avoid electronics if you are color blind, there are plenty of areas that you can still work in that will not be a problem.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 10:40:46 pm by ptricks »
 

Offline moz

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2017, 02:48:17 pm »
Magic thinking works both ways.  During the US Mercury manned space program the original astronaut candidates were run through myriads of tests.  Many of them had no known relationship to the performance requirements of being an astronaut.

Most obviously, they were designed to eliminate women. That prevented a whole bunch of people who would otherwise fly through the G force and nausea etc tests from even being allowed to try out for the program.

One of the more amusing ones (to me, anyway) was the strong preference in some mining companies for female plant operators. Purely because women don't tend to thrash the machinery as hard, which cuts maintenance costs and increases availability. I had a female coworker at one stage who used to take unpaid leave during mining booms to go and work in remote mine sites. She'd make a couple of years pay in six months then return to being an electronics technician. Our bosses understood her motivation...

Thing is, it was perfectly legal and they'd "wash out" operators who were hard on machines purely on that basis. And when challenged, they said quite bluntly "statistically, a random female candidate is 80% likely to make the cut, a random male one 30% likely". It was that stark (according to her, anyway). That argument rages on, 20 years later...
 

Offline CCitizenTO

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 07:46:11 am »
To discriminate legally in most cases you need a bonafide requirement to do the job. Like a cop or firefighter can't be in a wheelchair.

That said color coded resistors can pose a pain but you know there's always multimeters to test resistor values so they don't need to be able to differentiate between red/green color.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 08:50:07 am »
THere’s a job in Australia advertised on Seek right now “Fitting Model” for Mountain Designs.
They require you have their specified waist, neck, bust measurements, otherwise you wouldn’t be a fitting model for Medium standard.

No idea such jobs existed, I assumed they just got models from an agency.
But sure enough, full time position:
https://www.seek.com.au/job/33309941

Degree in fashion design preferred!
At least that's a heck of a lot more useful than a degree in gender studies  >:D


 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2017, 09:10:45 am »
I guess the only size requirements that must be included are the height and the subjective "Size 8 or small *" as all the others are very precisely specified. Is there a fashion equivalent of a 3458A to make sure the bust is 85.00000cm? I guess 100ppm may be allowed even taking into account the uncertainty from the tape measure and when it was last calibrated.

* From my understanding of past girlfriends and their moaning about not fitting into dresses of a "Size 8" or "Small" and how different vendors have different rules on what a fashion "size" is, I can't see why this ambiguous requirement is there when a clear specification is laid out.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 10:53:28 am »
Yes, if non-color blindness is in any way important to the job.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2017, 11:08:43 am »
The way I see it is in the final analysis, governments are unlikely to be able to force people to do things having to do with their own business or property.

So when we move into a job-sparse future, we're going to have to understand that its simply impossible to control some things. When hundreds of people apply for each job, who gets it? There will be efforts made to winnow down the list of people which will be totally arbitrary. Its inevitable when only a few people can have the remaining jobs. bribery will be common, people working for free for years to get one will be common. Nepotism will be the norm rather than the exception. People will hire all their family members and nobody else.

The scarcer jobs get the more arbitrary and competitive it will be. Its not discrimination if only 20 people can get them and 2000 apply. Thats just the math.

People will be desperate to get work but they wont be able to blame anything but the economy. It just wont need many people. Except to buy things and thats where the problem will be.
 
So they think they have to keep people thinking its going to be fair for as long as possible.

Quote from: CatalinaWOW on 2016-12-07, 13:42:17

The real question, which in the US is largely ignored, is similar to the point posed by Blueskull.  How inferior does someone's total skill package have to be before you are justified legally and ethically in letting them go (or not hiring them in the first place).  What is the metric?  Nearly everyone is disabled in some sense: less than perfect vision, physical skills, intelligence, training, endurance, language skills, the list goes on. 

Extreme examples point out the problem.  Stephen Hawking is so physically limited that he not only requires many mechanical supports, but requires significant other human support to function.  But he is so brilliant that the total package is worth it.   Other folks with different sets of abilities and limitations may not provide so obvious an answer
.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 12:37:55 pm by cdev »
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Offline retrolefty

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2017, 10:16:47 pm »
Quote
The scarcer jobs get the more arbitrary and competitive it will be. Its not discrimination if only 20 people can get them and 2000 apply. That's just the math.

 I suspect that if 2000 applicants satisfy the basic requirements for the 20 specific job opening, that the SJWs will propose that only a random number generator should be used to select the 20 openings, as anyway else is simply discrimination by definition.

 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2017, 11:03:04 pm »
They will use education and desired wages, most credentialed with lowest wages.


Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.


People with collegiate debts that imply need to get paid, eventually will encounter the need not apply.
A system that selects by wealth of parents and outside incomes.


It's like that more and more.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:06:37 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2017, 11:19:01 pm »
Is anybody reading this from the former Soviet republics? A friend who lived there in the early 90s told me that job ads would include sex with the boss and spell it out in euphemistic expressions, which I am trying to remember.


She was American but spoke Russian so well Russians mistook her for a fellow Russian.


She had a lot of interesting stories about life there. She lived in St. Petersburg for quite a while.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2017, 11:32:22 pm »
Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.

Usually not in the real world. The two things that matter are:
1) Can you do the job
2) Do they like you (for *insert reasons here*)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2017, 11:35:48 pm »
I suspect that if 2000 applicants satisfy the basic requirements for the 20 specific job opening, that the SJWs will propose that only a random number generator should be used to select the 20 openings, as anyway else is simply discrimination by definition.

No, they usually argue for and want equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. Which is of course the most ridiculous thing ever.
A random draw would be equality of opportunity, and if the random numbers don't produce an employment result that is 50/50 then all hell will break lose  :scared:
 

Online NANDBlog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2017, 11:41:55 pm »
Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.

Usually not in the real world. The two things that matter are:
1) Can you do the job
2) Do they like you (for *insert reasons here*)
Not really. Self trained will be handicapped for jobs, that they dont really want to get in the first place (and maybe they dont even know it). From what I saw, engineering, there are few places where they filter your application for a degree. And those are the places, where you need to print and fill out a form to get paper to the printer. The Dilbert style jobs. Where they need a team of 12 engineers to find the correct resistor value.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2017, 12:43:19 am »
Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.

Usually not in the real world. The two things that matter are:
1) Can you do the job
2) Do they like you (for *insert reasons here*)

If you can get past the recruiters and HR (to a lesser extent) to an interview with the people who understand the job then I agree, if not, then your CV is likely to end up in the bin and never seen by anyone techie.

Best way to get a tech job is to know someone or have an industry reputation.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2017, 01:31:50 am »
This (hiring by functional skills) has been one of the main draws of technical careers (aside from their also being fun.) A relative oasis compared to many other fields.

But the world of what is "legal" will shift towards what is FTA legal, and increasingly a great many practices which are now the norm in tech won't be.

This is going to hugely change society, against its will, whenever a great many situations exist (tax money involved in a contract, especially).

A huge amount of privatization will also occur and then those contracts will go up for bidding in a global context.

That will change the makeup of all service sectors radically. Turning them from professions into precarious work.
 (and lowering wages globally by pitting people against one another.)  That is its intent.

The changes will likely hurt almost everybody except multinational corporations.

Quote from: EEVblog on Today at 07:32:22>Quote from: cdev on Today at 07:03:04
Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.

Usually not in the real world. The two things that matter are:
1) Can you do the job
2) Do they like you (for *insert reasons here*)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:42:38 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline moz

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2017, 09:15:10 am »
Education is in theory objective but that will mean self trained or taught individuals will likely lose out consistently to those with formal degrees.

As often it's more that hiring people is a huge PITA and a big risk for the people doing the hiring. Nothing quite makes quick and dirty filtering as attractive as having 500 emails come in applying for a job and having to sort through them. So "do they have a degree" is an easy filter that's also easy to justify to HR/upper management. And after the first hundred or so "I Sergei from Kladistavinkuvoluvbistan excellent english much degree need visa sponsor" even the most devout "we consider all applications" management starts to look for clues that will allow them to weed out obvious duds quickly and easily.

Having been through that wringer a few times I have taking to putting a question in the ad that must be answered in the cover letter, and an instruction likewise. For example "please address your application to Moz and mention your two most recently used programming languages". That weeds out spammers and people who don't follow instructions (I don't care which category a given failure falls into). So my filter goes like this, and many candidates fail at each step:

  • does the cover letter exist, ideally as the body of the email
  • is it addressed to me?
  • does it answer the question?
  • can I understand the letter at all? (I'm happy with ESOL as long as I can read it)

After that I will actually open the CV/Resume, because by then we're normally down to less that 1/10th the initial pile of applications. A degree is nice, but relevant experience matters more unless we're hiring a graduate. Someone with two years experience is probably on an equal footing with a recent graduate, except that I will grill them a little more on theory because IME non-grads are often weak on *why* we do things.

Why do you think Dave only considers people who are active on the forums for his apprentices?
 

Offline moz

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2017, 09:17:35 am »
the SJWs will
No, they usually argue for and want equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity.

{citation needed}

Would one of you do me a wee favour - show me where that argument has been made in good faith?
 
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2017, 04:10:54 am »
I went to school with a lovely, older, married lady.  The kind of women who could be mothering and supportive to a bunch of undergrads, yet flip around and be tough as nails.  This was in the early 90s.   She  majored in EE, got three years done,  into the four year program, then they scheduled the eye  test for 2nd semester juniors.   She was  was found to have mild color blindness when the school paid a company to administered the test.  Think really major university.

Their Idea was not to waste testing money on students who might wash out. 

She had to switch over to mechanical, no ifs ands or buts, because of thru hole color codes.   Her revenge was to go see a vision  specialist, who suggested a mild red contact lens on one eye. She had already been stuffing boards for her husband's business, with never a flaw. 

So she put on the contact  lens, hand stuffed and soldered  a three foot by three foot machine control board, and walked into the Dean's office.  It of course was perfectly functional, and had around two hundred banded resistors on it.   Dean said that's nice, and NO.  She slammed it on his desk and went to lawyer.  Net result, she finished,  got both ME and EE by the time the lawsuit was over. 

The law in the state of Ohio said you could discriminate for this at the time, as a condition of employment. But nothing said you could delay the  test, and then not inform students you will be testing! The Dean's mistake, she was a teacher by training and knew the anti-discrimination law.

Ouch!

Steve



« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 04:12:32 am by LaserSteve »
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2017, 10:23:34 am »
Writing a requirement to be able to carry a 180 lb person 50 yards might result from the first situation.  A requirement to fit through a specified small hole might result from the second.  The combination would result in an extraordinarily small pool of firefighters.

And the only place you'd manage to recruit them was in bar fights in Scotland and they'd all be called Wee Angus, Wee Shuggy, Wee Lewis..., you get the picture. If you ever enter a bar and there's a really short, thin, wiry Scotsman sitting on their own at the end of the bar giving everyone who walks in the eye, for the sake of your health, leave. The stories I could tell ...
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2017, 10:27:02 am »
Is there a fashion equivalent of a 3458A to make sure the bust is 85.00000cm?

My mate Pete Long used to say that the correct unit for that measurement was the British Standard Handfull.
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Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2017, 10:36:00 am »
Quote
Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
Do candidates have the right to be hired for a job they are unable to perform?
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2017, 12:15:34 pm »
Had an electrician wire up a panel for me. Found out he is colour-blind:

He swapped red and green wires.

Meaning, incoming 480VAC 100A phase A connected to chassis ground, and earth ground went to Phase A output. Totally hazardous. Assuming another GND connection to the panel existed and could clear the 100A circuit-breaker, still would damage things.

After that, I believe they have no place working where their disability causes safety hazards.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2017, 12:44:07 pm »
Why do you think Dave only considers people who are active on the forums for his apprentices?

David2 isn't on the forum, nor does he frequent any other forums.
 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2017, 12:55:17 am »
Had an electrician wire up a panel for me. Found out he is colour-blind:

He swapped red and green wires.

You guys use red on a 480V system up in Canada? Standard colors here are Brown, Orange and Yellow for the hot legs, with Grey for a neutral. Black, Red, and Blue with a White neutral would be seen on a 208 or 240V 3 phase system in the US.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2017, 08:59:13 am »
Yes, Canadian wire colour codes the same as USA. 3-phase feeds usually red,black,blue. Neutral is white, ground is green.
I thought brown, yellow, orange are European colours. I can't buy that cable here.
 

Offline FireFlower

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2017, 08:06:16 am »
Yes, Canadian wire colour codes the same as USA. 3-phase feeds usually red,black,blue. Neutral is white, ground is green.
I thought brown, yellow, orange are European colours. I can't buy that cable here.

Old 'somewhat  Euro standard' colors for 3-phase:
Black (P1), Brown (P2), Black-White/Pure White (P3), Blue (Neutral), Green-Yellow (Ground)

New european colors for 3 phase since 2001
Brown (P1),  Black (P2), Grey (P3), Blue (Neutral), Green-Yellow (Ground)


Also my friend is color blind (red-green if I remember right) and he constantly was discriminated when he mentioned it thus he was often sent to do "packing". What he was supposed to do before he mentioned his disability? He was supposed to write code...  :palm:

The problem is word "color blind" covers all cases for color disabilities, even the minor ones. From complete black&white sight to someone who sees regular blue as more darker blue or light blue.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 08:13:32 am by FireFlower »
 

Online ivaylo

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2017, 01:51:37 am »
Is anybody reading this from the former Soviet republics? A friend who lived there in the early 90s told me that job ads would include sex with the boss...
Not from the republics, but from the Bloc. The 90s were wild there, but don't remember seeing such ads. Growing up in Communist Eastern Europe color blindness was a curse. You couldn't drive, couldn't study Chemistry, Biology, Computer Science, nothing with electricity, or even some Arts. Of course the military had their crazy rules. I am red-green "confused", and everything was a struggle that way. I was allowed to drive (only passenger cars, could never drive anything bigger) only after a battery of tests in a specialized Transportation Hospital. Now that rule is relaxed, I believe. I could only study CS, because there was a loophole in the rules such that people drafted in the army did not have to take a medical exam before applying to college (and didn't have to show the results either). Fun times... The California driving test/exam was such a relief.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2017, 04:00:53 am »
Yes, my friend told me all sorts of stories about how the so called "New Russians" were abusing society. It seems that in the rush to "privatize" well connected former bureaucrats made a killing buying up all the former state owned companies for a tiny fraction of what they were worth before anybody realized what was going on. Turning them all into very rich men, and leaving the people with nothing.  Their counterparts in Europe and the US were very envious.

As she explained it, the gangsters were buying up apartments by offering people (who had an apartment in a major city) viatical settlements that gave people the rights to live in their apartments "for the rest of their lives", in exchange for small stipends of money to live on. - and the gangsters would own the apartment and assume possession when they had died (whether naturally or not).

Once they had signed, then those people would often end up dead not long afterward.

As far as sex with the boss, the way she put it, certain kinds of jobs were more often prostitution than not, and this was widely known and tolerated because otherwise huge segments of the population would have no income at all.

The way they would put it in the ads was something like "no hangups" ... that was a code phrase for sex with the boss. The ads would specify the desired body type, age (typically had to be in 20s) and expressions like"no hangups".

Also, she said real jobs were in such short supply that almost nobody had any hope of getting one, everybody wanted to get out of the country, and if your family was not on the inside - rich oligarchs, the only job alternative for many was gangsterism (ie being a New Russian) or prostitution if you were a girl.  Also, "computers" which meant computer crime. Rarely programming.

(Also, human trafficking was common.) 

The New Russians were famous for their boorishness, willingness to waste huge amounts of money on status symbols,  and bad taste.

Sounds really hellish.

------

So, I was curious when this was brought up in an earlier post, have any of the people here with color blindness tried the suggestion in an earlier post, wearing one contact lens that was presumably tinted red?

Or, for that matter, anaglyph lenses used for monochromatic stereo vision?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 04:25:42 am by cdev »
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2017, 12:47:52 pm »
The electric power generation/utility industry in North America uses reversed colour codes for HMI screens and annunciators lamps etc.  including the nuclear power industry.
So RED=OK, GREEN=ALARM/TROUBLE.

I wonder if this would get mixed up?
One colour-blind guy says he knows where red/green are on a traffic light as his way to not mix things up. Red at the top.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2017, 03:31:03 pm »
So RED=OK, GREEN=ALARM/TROUBLE.
Oh god why  :palm:, IEC 60073 people!
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2017, 03:53:26 pm »
Complained about it and my boss told me "Green means it's OK for you to investigate; to put your finger on it (button). Red: stop from doing anything."
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2017, 09:20:50 pm »
The electric power generation/utility industry in North America uses reversed colour codes for HMI screens and annunciators lamps etc.  including the nuclear power industry.
So RED=OK, GREEN=ALARM/TROUBLE.

I wonder if this would get mixed up?
One colour-blind guy says he knows where red/green are on a traffic light as his way to not mix things up. Red at the top.

 I was always puzzled about the red/green logic used by the electrical group including their electrical engineering department in a U.S. refinery. They explained the lights or colored mechanical flags were for the safety of the electricians. Red meant the breaker was energized and closed so unsafe to try and open for service. Green meant they could go ahead and safety open and service or inspect the breaker's internal. They explained it's been an electrical standard forever and would not consider changing it after all the years.

 But this was only used on electrical breakers and switch gear. We used the more logical red= trouble in our DCS screens and annunciator panels.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 09:23:25 pm by retrolefty »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2017, 04:48:58 am »
We used the more logical red= trouble in our DCS screens and annunciator panels.

Not "more logical", just conventional. There is no inherent reason that red means danger, just convention.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2017, 11:00:02 am »
We used the more logical red= trouble in our DCS screens and annunciator panels.

Not "more logical", just conventional. There is no inherent reason that red means danger, just convention.

It is a very widespread and aged convention.  I don't know when it started but it is definitely at least a century old.  And quite common in all European influenced cultures.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2017, 11:02:29 pm »
We used the more logical red= trouble in our DCS screens and annunciator panels.

Not "more logical", just conventional. There is no inherent reason that red means danger, just convention.

It is a very widespread and aged convention.  I don't know when it started but it is definitely at least a century old.  And quite common in all European influenced cultures.

My beef, if I have one, is the conflation of 'logical' and 'customary'. Just as I tend to interject when someone says something is "more intuitive" when what they really mean is "more like I'm used to". My discomfort is at the use of woolly language or woolly thinking, not the perfectly reasonable suggestion that one should use indicator colours that 90% of the world immediately understand.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2017, 11:36:08 pm »
We used the more logical red= trouble in our DCS screens and annunciator panels.

Not "more logical", just conventional. There is no inherent reason that red means danger, just convention.

It is a very widespread and aged convention.  I don't know when it started but it is definitely at least a century old.  And quite common in all European influenced cultures.

My beef, if I have one, is the conflation of 'logical' and 'customary'. Just as I tend to interject when someone says something is "more intuitive" when what they really mean is "more like I'm used to". My discomfort is at the use of woolly language or woolly thinking, not the perfectly reasonable suggestion that one should use indicator colours that 90% of the world immediately understand.

Great thinking points here.  Shows how easy it is to get lost.

You start with a very widespread convention.  Red is danger.

Electrical workers want identify potentially hot circuits.  The logic is to use the widely used convention - red is danger.

Then a different logic is used to in electrical power industry to color code annunciators - the logic of the switch state.

Which totally circumvents the original intent of keeping a widely used convention associating red with danger.

It is logical to use an existing and widely accepted convention to convey information.  Saves lots of training time and reduces the chances of confusion and error in actual operation.
 

Offline JacobPilsen

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2017, 01:59:28 am »
IMHO:
Red = Blood
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2017, 02:12:59 am »
IMHO:
Red = Blood

Or is that: Red = ripe, juicy fruit just ready to eat; green = sour, unripe fruit that will give you the squits?

Or, green = highly poisonous:


Anyway, you tend to see the blood after the danger has happened to you, not before as warning.
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Offline Berni

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2017, 03:43:43 pm »
Well Altium Designer uses green to show you errors on your PCB. I always found it counter intuitive but there id guess it comes from using red and blue for the top and bottom copper layers so green is the one that stands out the most from those.

Also looking at a screen flood filled with that bright neon green color is probably not nice on your eyes for long periods so that's one reason to not use it for a copper layer.

The reason for the red color is that humans evolved to pay more attention to red/yellow things. Green color is everywhere in nature while red things are usually more significant. A lot of fruit has some form of red color to it so want to notice it, its useful to notice if you are bleeding, blood on objects could alert you that something bad happened there. Very few things are red in nature for no reason, while all other colors appear everywhere.
 

Offline pinkman

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2018, 05:32:10 pm »
The answer to this question is obvious.  If the job depends at all on being able to correctly recognize colors, then the rejection of anyone who cannot is compulsory.  Would you hire a man with one arm to dig a hole?  A law against this would simply be a formality, created to appease the loudest of those who are mentally incapable of handling reality due to emotional or other shortcomings.  These laws are easy to step around but the unfortunate reality is that those less experienced at stepping around this nonsense are left at a disadvantage and the end result is that those least deserving of being sued(i.e. small business, can't afford good lawyer) are destroyed by it and those most deserving are unscathed.  Best course of action would be to do away with such laws completely.  I reserve the right to not hire any person for any possible reason, including their choice in coffee.
 

Online ivaylo

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2018, 06:32:18 pm »
Not so obvious. If you don't hire a brilliant electronics designer because he can't recognize color coded resistors you are not the great businessman you think you are. I assume you need one that is...
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2018, 01:10:46 am »
The answer to this question is obvious.  If the job depends at all on being able to correctly recognize colors, then the rejection of anyone who cannot is compulsory.

Why? In this day and age it's easy to provide technological solutions to many handicaps. In this case, it'd be pretty easy to provide a smartphone app that allowed one to recognise wiring or resistor colours.

Sure, there will be some areas of employment that will always be inaccessible to certain handicaps but, with a little ingenuity, there's a a way around many disabilities.

Quote
  Would you hire a man with one arm to dig a hole? 

You want to ban one armed people from driving mechanical diggers?

Quote
A law against this would simply be a formality, created to appease the loudest of those who are mentally incapable of handling reality due to emotional or other shortcomings.  These laws are easy to step around but the unfortunate reality is that those less experienced at stepping around this nonsense are left at a disadvantage and the end result is that those least deserving of being sued(i.e. small business, can't afford good lawyer) are destroyed by it and those most deserving are unscathed.  Best course of action would be to do away with such laws completely. 

That indicates an attitude that says it's OK to ignore the rule of law if you can get away with it. Many would find that an unacceptable stance to take.

Quote
I reserve the right to not hire any person for any possible reason, including their choice in coffee.

As you have made no qualification, at all, are we to presume that your "possible reason" would include gender, skin colour or religion?

The only compulsory ban to employment that there should be is a proven lack of empathy or compassion for others.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2018, 02:10:10 am »
Color blindness in some areas might be a potential problem. I thankfully can see a full range of color and could see how not being able to might pose problems in electronics.

I use color coding extensively to identify wires, etc.
And of course many parts are color coded.

But the other side of it is, if somebody really wants a job and is really good at something, chances are they have figured out ways to deal with it. Its really hard to say.

The problem is, if there are a lot more people who want a job than jobs, things like that get used more to remove large groups of people from consideration.

Its a different kind of handicap, one which may (or may not) impact the job.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 02:53:25 am by cdev »
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Offline pinkman

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2018, 01:37:28 pm »
The answer to this question is obvious.  If the job depends at all on being able to correctly recognize colors, then the rejection of anyone who cannot is compulsory.

Why? In this day and age it's easy to provide technological solutions to many handicaps. In this case, it'd be pretty easy to provide a smartphone app that allowed one to recognise wiring or resistor colours.

Sure, there will be some areas of employment that will always be inaccessible to certain handicaps but, with a little ingenuity, there's a a way around many disabilities.

You need to think this one through.  Maybe a large corporation could bear this financial burden, but any smaller business could not.  If you are talking resistor colors, maybe there is a solution, but obviously use of thru hole resistors is rather rare now so that's not the point - The point is other tasks which require recognition of colors.  This was my point.  You cannot force someone to bear this burden; It must be by choice.

Quote
Quote
  Would you hire a man with one arm to dig a hole? 

You want to ban one armed people from driving mechanical diggers?

The analogy clearly involved a shovel, not a mechanical digger, ok.............................................

Quote
Quote
A law against this would simply be a formality, created to appease the loudest of those who are mentally incapable of handling reality due to emotional or other shortcomings.  These laws are easy to step around but the unfortunate reality is that those less experienced at stepping around this nonsense are left at a disadvantage and the end result is that those least deserving of being sued(i.e. small business, can't afford good lawyer) are destroyed by it and those most deserving are unscathed.  Best course of action would be to do away with such laws completely. 

That indicates an attitude that says it's OK to ignore the rule of law if you can get away with it. Many would find that an unacceptable stance to take.

That stance is reality.  You have to accept it and deal with it.  Either that, or get a mind reading device and start prosecuting people for thought crimes like in that Minority Report movie  :-DD

Quote
Quote
I reserve the right to not hire any person for any possible reason, including their choice in coffee.

As you have made no qualification, at all, are we to presume that your "possible reason" would include gender, skin colour or religion?

The reason does not need to be specified - It varies by person doing the hiring - This is why I said "any reason".  Would you want to work somewhere that you are not wanted?

Quote
The only compulsory ban to employment that there should be is a proven lack of empathy or compassion for others.

Your emotions relating to such matters are yours alone; Be aware that attempting to force others to feel them with you will not actually accomplish anything productive, unless you consider stifling free will to be productive.
 

Offline pinkman

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2018, 01:42:23 pm »
Color blindness in some areas might be a potential problem. I thankfully can see a full range of color and could see how not being able to might pose problems in electronics.

I use color coding extensively to identify wires, etc.
And of course many parts are color coded.

But the other side of it is, if somebody really wants a job and is really good at something, chances are they have figured out ways to deal with it. Its really hard to say.

The problem is, if there are a lot more people who want a job than jobs, things like that get used more to remove large groups of people from consideration.

Its a different kind of handicap, one which may (or may not) impact the job.


Agreed.  It all comes down to whether or not the person doing the hiring considers it to be a good business decision and whether or not the person desiring to be hired can demonstrate reasonable proficiency at the tasks required for the job.  If the person can not be reasonably proficient as compared to the average worker in that position then they should find another line of work that they can be reasonably proficient in, or they should find someone willing to hire them out of pity or kindness.  Forcing a hire by using legislation is not useful as there are always ways around such a law, and ultimately it is not good for business.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2018, 04:31:37 pm »
If somebody has a functional handicap, they have to do the work of convincing that employer its not a problem so they are hired and then doing a kick ass job.

In the final analysis employers are not there to provide jobs, you are there to provide them a service and get paid for it.

Relying on a law (if one existed and I dont think one does) is lunacy. Its not going to do anything except get somebody disliked who wouldn't otherwise be disliked.

The work relationship is based on what you (and your employer) bring to the table to help one another.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:54:16 am by cdev »
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Offline nes999

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2018, 08:42:09 am »
I was involved with a discrimination suit a few years back. We advertised for a class 8 truck driving job. This persons job would be bringing construction supplies/ equipment to various jobsites. Its alot of heavy lifting and in/out of the truck.

We had one applicant who didn't have legs. Who also only had about 6 months of experience.  He expected us to put a lift in the truck and have a hand controls put in. He also expected us to have a helper with him to load/unload the truck.

We ended up choosing a veteran who had 5 years of experience.

Low and behold the gentlemen thought all that work to a truck is "reasonable accommodations".  This truck would have only been able to be driven by him. The handicap installer estimated 6 figures for all of the work needed to be done for this truck to get him working. Plus he needed a helper.


We ended up winning but the costs to go to court are ridiculous.

If you can do the job I don't care what your handicap is and we are willing to work around it. However everything has its limits.

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Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2018, 09:13:06 am »
I don't think being unable to read resistor color codes would be a serious limitation, color banded through-hole resistors are rarely used in modern equipment outside of the occasional flameproof or small power resistor. I typically verify with a multimeter anyway as I've been burned a few times by color bands that were somewhat ambiguous under fluorescent light.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2018, 10:25:54 am »
Quote
I reserve the right to not hire any person for any possible reason, including their choice in coffee.
As you have made no qualification, at all, are we to presume that your "possible reason" would include gender, skin colour or religion?
The only compulsory ban to employment that there should be is a proven lack of empathy or compassion for others.

There is a compelling argument for making it illegal to discriminate against things you have no control over, e.g. gender and skin colour, and indeed most(?) countries have laws against discriminating based on that alone.
But religion?, sorry that's your choice.
You believe in UFO's or Homeopathy?, your choice.
Trump supporter, your choice.
Hair colour or other appearance attributes? your choice.
And insert a dozen other things people may judge you over.

I had to give a reality check to a group of EE students some time back. They came armed with all sorts of questions about "Is it true that there is gender or race discrimination in the industry", as if that's the #1 impediment to getting a job. I had to tell them there are dozen other things they'll get judged on before gender or race. Use the incorrect intonation of voice or body language in an interview and it's all over red rover, and that's just for starters.
 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2018, 10:44:29 am »
In the US, sexual preference, marital status, and religion are protected as is gender and color.   Age is also protected, but the protections have limits, e.g, an 85 y.o. is not protected when applying for an entry-level position.
 

Offline eb4eqa

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #87 on: January 31, 2018, 01:18:49 pm »
I am color blind and the biggest challenge for me is telling traces appart from others, in many different instruments. Yellow and green seem to be the common option for two-channel scoper for example, and they look identical to me on the screen. That is why:

http://www.rbarrios.com/projects/DSOX/

Regards,
Roberto
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #88 on: January 31, 2018, 05:32:38 pm »
Yeah some of the old gear with color screens i find you can set any color of the rainbow for pretty much any screen element, even menus.

Tho how yellow/green ended up there is likely a mistake. For 2 channel scopes and other gear it used to be that they chosen two opposing colors such as for example yellow and blue and variations on that. Makes complete sense, but then 4 color channel scopes came around and almost all of them used interleaving for channels 1/2 and 3/4 as that was cheaper than having 2 extra ADCs. On these scopes you are supposed to use the opposite pairs when you need 2 channels so that you make use of both ADCs.

For example Agilent/Keysight (And some others) use:
1) Yellow
2) Green
3) Blue
4) Magenta

So if you use the scope as it was meant means you use channel 1 and 3 or if you like 2 and 4. In that case you get complementary colors of Yellow/Blue or Green/Magenta and are as such very easy to tell apart. They thought this out nicely. :-+

Then also scope manufacturers wanted to make cheaper versions of the scopes so that they could cover a wider market, especially when it got so price competitive. Naturally the thing to do is chop away one of the expensive ADCs and associated circuitry to make a 2 channel scope with just 1 ADC. So to make things sensible they keep channel 1 and 2 and throw away 3 and 4. But they also kept the colors, the colors that ware not designed to be easily distinguishable. I don't know weather this was just a "Whops we forgot about that" or it was deliberate because "We need to keep our product line consistent" or "It takes less software changes to keep the colors" |O

Even tho im not color blind i think that the two colors are not that easy to tell apart at a glance if the waveforms are overlapping. But all the scopes around me are 4 channel anyway so i just stick with my usual channel 1/3 pair.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 05:34:56 pm by Berni »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2018, 06:55:41 pm »
Hmm incidentally, a lot of scopes have lower performance if you use channels 1 and 2 simultaneously, or 3 and 4. So 1&3 or 2&4 would be preferred for high speed two channel operation.

It's still a dumb accident that yellow and green ended up the scheme. Pretty basic if anyone along the way had just asked about color blindness, but alas, it's often overlooked.

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Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2018, 01:36:00 am »
That indicates an attitude that says it's OK to ignore the rule of law if you can get away with it. Many would find that an unacceptable stance to take.

The only compulsory ban to employment that there should be is a proven lack of empathy or compassion for others.

Darwin will lose his appetite to science if he knew that a few hundreds years later, the so called humanity will prevent human beings from evolving.

My rule is very simple: if you can't keep up your capability of making money for me as other people can, you are not for me.

If I am to hire anyone with disability, I will simply ask a simple question: can you find a way to work around it and keep up your productivity? If not, good bye.

I don't give a damn shit about the law. I don't have to tell the employee that he was rejected for his disability. I can find any reason to fire anyone. Coming late, even only once, bam, expelled. Being caught swearing, bam, expelled. If a boss wants to mess with his employees, there are more than enough ways to get it done.

And BTW, I don't know if such companies exist in UK, but in China, we have labor consulting companies providing training service to company managers on how to dodge laws to exploit employees legally. If it doesn't strictly break the law, why should I be worrying about it? Rule No. 1 for lawyers -- good or bad doesn't matter, all it matters is how the behavior matches the text of law.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2018, 02:11:33 am »
That indicates an attitude that says it's OK to ignore the rule of law if you can get away with it. Many would find that an unacceptable stance to take.

The only compulsory ban to employment that there should be is a proven lack of empathy or compassion for others.

Darwin will lose his appetite to science if he knew that a few hundreds years later, the so called humanity will prevent human beings from evolving.

My rule is very simple: if you can't keep up your capability of making money for me as other people can, you are not for me.

If I am to hire anyone with disability, I will simply ask a simple question: can you find a way to work around it and keep up your productivity? If not, good bye.

I don't give a damn shit about the law. I don't have to tell the employee that he was rejected for his disability. I can find any reason to fire anyone. Coming late, even only once, bam, expelled. Being caught swearing, bam, expelled. If a boss wants to mess with his employees, there are more than enough ways to get it done.

At least you're honest about your intent to ignore the law wholesale. Just hope that the other side in the first court case that you find yourself in don't find this or it will be 'exhibit A' in their case against you.

And appealing to Darwin would, were he still alive, have probably brought you a short, sharp, Victorian lecture in morality. I suspect, if asked, that Darwin would have considered the evolution of social rules and law just as much a part of evolution. The ability, by codifying what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour, to coexist without tearing each other apart is an evolutionary adaptation that has permitted the human race to become this planet's most successful species.

Quote
And BTW, I don't know if such companies exist in UK, but in China, we have labor consulting companies providing training service to company managers on how to dodge laws to exploit employees legally. If it doesn't strictly break the law, why should I be worrying about it? Rule No. 1 for lawyers -- good or bad doesn't matter, all it matters is how the behavior matches the text of law.

Thankfully, no. Any lawyer advertising his services this way would find himself disbarred in fairly short order. However, a wise man I know once taught me that it's important how you phrase "Can I do this legally?" to a lawyer. Say "Can I do this legally?" and they will most likely offer you a roundabout way to skirt the law; ask "Is it illegal for me to do this?" and they will give you an opinion on the legality of your proposed action.
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Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2018, 02:17:35 am »
I suspect, if asked, that Darwin would have considered the evolution of social rules and law just as much a part of evolution.
Quote

Those really rich men, such as defense lawyers for super rich criminals and those dark bankers, will not agree.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2018, 02:41:46 am »
I suspect, if asked, that Darwin would have considered the evolution of social rules and law just as much a part of evolution.

Those really rich men, such as defense lawyers for super rich criminals and those dark bankers, will not agree.

You seem to be conflating law and lawyers, they are not one and the same thing. If the law is, in evolutionary terms, a host organism, lawyers are its parasites. If evolution jumped to perfection in one single leap we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths - we do. Evolution evolves, one must expect many imperfect intermediate steps and a 'just good enough' end result.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2018, 07:07:31 am »
If evolution jumped to perfection

Quote
we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths

While you're on the right track -- a reminder to make this explicit:

Evolution is not a path to some arbitrary concept of perfection.

Evolution just is.

The human race, for example, is no more a pinnacle of achievement than the humble banana slug, or the amoeba.

Indeed, by another metric, one might well say the protists are doing better -- they've been around longer, and have more individuals in more environments.

Likewise, an arbitrary classification (psychological conditions) need not apply to evolution; it just is.  Indeed, psychopathy and sociopathy have well known evolutionary functions; which is exactly why the rest of us hate them so much (reference the survival-of-society versus survivial-of-individual game-theory square).

Regarding lawyers, in principle, they swear to uphold ethics as well as the law.  Law, in turn, is typically constructed from an ethical basis; but in practice, it is more realist than that.  The laws that lawyers themselves must adhere to, are there for this reason: as a balance, if not a strict yes-and-no.  Which is fitting, as law itself is a hazy yes-and-no argument when heard in court.

I assume blueskull is referring specifically to those lawyers in China, where the law bends much more heavily towards the realist side than the ethical side.

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Offline coppice

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2018, 10:15:17 am »
If evolution jumped to perfection in one single leap we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths - we do.
The qualities that make a psychopath a potential danger to society can also make them an excellent brain surgeon. They are cold and unemotional. They get on with the pursuit of their goals regardless of what happens. They aren't easily thrown by bad stuff that might happen along the way, like a burst blood vessel in the middle of an operation.

Few qualities that might be selected for or against by evolution are clearly positive or negative to the species prospering. Qualities usually have a mix of positive and negative effects, and it takes considerable study to see where the balance lies.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2018, 11:05:54 am »
If evolution jumped to perfection in one single leap we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths - we do.
The qualities that make a psychopath a potential danger to society can also make them an excellent brain surgeon. They are cold and unemotional. They get on with the pursuit of their goals regardless of what happens. They aren't easily thrown by bad stuff that might happen along the way, like a burst blood vessel in the middle of an operation.

Few qualities that might be selected for or against by evolution are clearly positive or negative to the species prospering. Qualities usually have a mix of positive and negative effects, and it takes considerable study to see where the balance lies.

That's a classic example of not seeing the wood for the trees. Psychopath and sociopath were mere illustrations, appropriate to context of discussing social rules and law simply because they are typified by disregard for the law. If that stops you seeing the actual argument, substitute rapists, paedophiles or mass murderers or whatever class of individual you personally would see as necessitating the existence of social control or law to ameliorate their baleful effects on society as a whole.

The point, in case you missed it, is that classic evolution doesn't weed out the bad-uns, indeed it doesn't work at the level of a species as a whole. But, just possibly, in a species that has a concept of itself as a whole ('mankind') and can communicate and record information in a way that has not been seen on earth before homo sapiens it's possible that civilisation/society/whatever-you-call-it has become a new way for evolution to work - selecting between emergent social and legal systems in a way that benefits the survivability of the species as a whole.

To take it back to scoff-laws - it is possible to see morals, social rules and law as having utility for society as a whole. For most of us, I suspect that seeing certain behaviours (such as discriminating against the handicapped) as unethical or immoral or 'just plain wrong' is enough, but for those who it isn't enough then perhaps an argument from the utility to society is more attractive.
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Offline coppice

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2018, 11:10:35 am »
If evolution jumped to perfection in one single leap we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths - we do.
The qualities that make a psychopath a potential danger to society can also make them an excellent brain surgeon. They are cold and unemotional. They get on with the pursuit of their goals regardless of what happens. They aren't easily thrown by bad stuff that might happen along the way, like a burst blood vessel in the middle of an operation.

Few qualities that might be selected for or against by evolution are clearly positive or negative to the species prospering. Qualities usually have a mix of positive and negative effects, and it takes considerable study to see where the balance lies.

That's a classic example of not seeing the wood for the trees. Psychopath and sociopath were mere illustrations, appropriate to context of discussing social rules and law simply because they are typified by disregard for the law. If that stops you seeing the actual argument, substitute rapists, paedophiles or mass murderers or whatever class of individual you personally would see as necessitating the existence of social control or law to ameliorate their baleful effects on society as a whole.

The point, in case you missed it, is that classic evolution doesn't weed out the bad-uns, indeed it doesn't work at the level of a species as a whole. But, just possibly, in a species that has a concept of itself as a whole ('mankind') and can communicate and record information in a way that has not been seen on earth before homo sapiens it's possible that civilisation/society/whatever-you-call-it has become a new way for evolution to work - selecting between emergent social and legal systems in a way that benefits the survivability of the species as a whole.

To take it back to scoff-laws - it is possible to see morals, social rules and law as having utility for society as a whole. For most of us, I suspect that seeing certain behaviours (such as discriminating against the handicapped) as unethical or immoral or 'just plain wrong' is enough, but for those who it isn't enough then perhaps an argument from the utility to society is more attractive.
The point, in case you missed it, is that the complexity of interactions make it very hard to tell what evolution has been doing, apart from keeping species sufficiently well adapted to have survived this far.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2018, 11:40:53 am »
If evolution jumped to perfection in one single leap we would not have psychopaths and sociopaths - we do.
The qualities that make a psychopath a potential danger to society can also make them an excellent brain surgeon. They are cold and unemotional. They get on with the pursuit of their goals regardless of what happens. They aren't easily thrown by bad stuff that might happen along the way, like a burst blood vessel in the middle of an operation.

Few qualities that might be selected for or against by evolution are clearly positive or negative to the species prospering. Qualities usually have a mix of positive and negative effects, and it takes considerable study to see where the balance lies.


That's also not how evolution works. Evolution is driven by individuals who are successful at breeding, that has little to do with their overall benefit to society or qualities as an individual. Sociopaths in particular tend to be capable of being very charming and can be quite successful at breeding. They may not make great parents but that doesn't matter from an evolutionary standpoint.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #99 on: February 01, 2018, 11:47:41 am »
I don't give a damn shit about the law. I don't have to tell the employee that he was rejected for his disability. I can find any reason to fire anyone. Coming late, even only once, bam, expelled. Being caught swearing, bam, expelled. If a boss wants to mess with his employees, there are more than enough ways to get it done.

And BTW, I don't know if such companies exist in UK, but in China, we have labor consulting companies providing training service to company managers on how to dodge laws to exploit employees legally. If it doesn't strictly break the law, why should I be worrying about it? Rule No. 1 for lawyers -- good or bad doesn't matter, all it matters is how the behavior matches the text of law.

Merely posting something like this could be very dangerous to your future employment opportunities should anyone at a prospective employer ever link this post to you. It may not be an issue in China but in the US and many other Western nations these things are taken very seriously. If an individual you interviewed were to find out about this, even if you rejected them for a perfectly valid reason like being completely incompetent they can still file a discrimination lawsuit where that post is certain to be used as evidence. Even baseless lawsuits are very expensive for companies, before I was allowed to interview anyone I had to go through some training which emphasized certain things we were under no circumstances allowed to ask or even discuss with a candidate. Things like age, marital status, religion, political affiliations, health conditions, all strictly forbidden. If they chose to bring it up unsolicited we were directed to gracefully change the subject. 
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2018, 11:50:04 am »
Sociopaths (i.e. people with NPD) tend to be delusional (they are the definition of delusions of grandeur) and for that reason they make horrible leaders. However that doesn't stop 99% of politicians from having it (NPD) anyway.

Because nobody else in their right minds wants the job.

Stressful childhoods and distant unavailable parents when somebody is under 6 yrs old create people with NPD, so NPD is much more common in the very rich and the very poor.
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Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #101 on: February 01, 2018, 11:56:56 am »
I'm not sure if one can conclusively say that these things create the disorder when it's entirely possible that it works the other way around and is genetic. Sociopaths tend to be the ones who make it into positions of power and influence which often leads to wealth. If it's genetic then their kids are more likely to have the condition as well. There are plenty of people neglected as children who did not become sociopaths.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #102 on: February 01, 2018, 11:58:07 am »
James, I'm sorry but blueskull is right. In the final analysis, nothing in the world is going to keep somebody employed if their employer doesn't want them there.

Everybody has to stand on their own merits. Sure, jobs are going away, so that means that millions of people are not going to have jobs in a few years and the sooner we face that reality the better.

They wont have health insurance either.  They may not have anywhere to live, either because their homes will be snapped up by investors who wont even live in them.

This is why education is so important.
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2018, 11:58:33 am »
First: I am R-G color blind too and I hate my scope for not allowing me selecting the colors I want.

I read, that taking a Viagra pill should remove temporarily the color blindness (never tried).
I am wondering if a company would provide this anti-color-blindness pill for helping their employees. Though there are some secondary effects then  :o which might make the then (temporarily) healed person quite non-productive (at least regarding their regular work load).
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:02:44 pm by Pinkus »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #104 on: February 01, 2018, 11:59:59 am »
That's also not how evolution works. Evolution is driven by individuals who are successful at breeding, that has little to do with their overall benefit to society or qualities as an individual. Sociopaths in particular tend to be capable of being very charming and can be quite successful at breeding. They may not make great parents but that doesn't matter from an evolutionary standpoint.
Breeding is more than just getting females pregnant. There have to be actual offspring, born and raised safe and healthy, so they can eventually breed. Being good parents is generally pretty important from an evolutionary standpoint, although there are numerous species which sidestep this in various ways - e.g. cuckoos getting some other nurturing suckers to do the hard work.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #105 on: February 01, 2018, 12:02:31 pm »
Breeding is more than just getting females pregnant. There have to be actual offspring, born and raised safe and healthy, so they can eventually breed. Being good parents is generally pretty important from an evolutionary standpoint, although there are numerous species which sidestep this in various ways - e.g. cuckoos getting some other nurturing suckers to do the hard work.

Visit some low income areas in the midwest and southern US and that may change your mind. Areas with the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation, people who are grandparents in their 30s, it really doesn't seem to take a whole lot of effort to raise offspring to potential breeding age.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #106 on: February 01, 2018, 12:03:27 pm »
There are also people who have NPD who are sort of borderline and who mean well, sort of.

But the problem is, they will always be at sort of a six year old's emotional level and they don't know right from wrong.

Unfortunately all of our political figures seem to have this illness.

With almost no exceptions.

I'm not sure if one can conclusively say that these things create the disorder when it's entirely possible that it works the other way around and is genetic. Sociopaths tend to be the ones who make it into positions of power and influence which often leads to wealth. If it's genetic then their kids are more likely to have the condition as well. There are plenty of people neglected as children who did not become sociopaths.

Its not genetic, the ability to empathize with others has something to do with early childhood environment.

Even if Mommy or Daddy is really busy and stressed, if their parent is there for them in some certain way people grow up okay.
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Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #107 on: February 01, 2018, 12:04:26 pm »
James, I'm sorry but blueskull is right. In the final analysis, nothing in the world is going to keep somebody employed if their employer doesn't want them there.

Everybody has to stand on their own merits. Sure, jobs are going away, so that means that millions of people are not going to have jobs in a few years and the sooner we face that reality the better.

They wont have health insurance either.  They may not have anywhere to live, either because their homes will be snapped up by investors who wont even live in them.

This is why education is so important.

Of course that's true, but it's certainly not sensible to go around outright saying that you plan to ignore the law. The fact that employers do these things doesn't make it right, nor does it mean employees who feel they were discriminated against can't or won't sue. Companies are very careful about these things, in some cases it makes it difficult to fire someone who really ought to go.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #108 on: February 01, 2018, 12:05:12 pm »
Breeding is more than just getting females pregnant. There have to be actual offspring, born and raised safe and healthy, so they can eventually breed. Being good parents is generally pretty important from an evolutionary standpoint, although there are numerous species which sidestep this in various ways - e.g. cuckoos getting some other nurturing suckers to do the hard work.

Visit some low income areas in the midwest and southern US and that may change your mind. Areas with the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation, people who are grandparents in their 30s, it really doesn't seem to take a whole lot of effort to raise offspring to potential breeding age.
Modern societies have largely isolated themselves from evolutionary issues. Idiocracy isn't a crass comedy movie. Its a solid prediction.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #109 on: February 01, 2018, 12:08:32 pm »
It may not be an issue in China but in the US and many other Western nations these things are taken very seriously.

That's why I registered my off shore at HK, and I plan to go to China to run it after my 3 year of OPT runs out.
US is good for average people, but if you want to be the top in the society, benefiting from minority's benefit, China is better.
 

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #110 on: February 01, 2018, 12:10:16 pm »
Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #111 on: February 01, 2018, 12:11:01 pm »
The fact that people have no prospects puts people in the horrible position of having nothing to offer to others except for sex. The less we invest in society the fewer people will ever be able to afford the stability that leads to marriage and the higher the percentage of children born out of wedlock will be. Also, the fact is, that in many countries, its not such a big thing. The US seems to be the very worst country in the developed world to grow up with a single mother. Rights for nonmarital children are actually worse than they were in the 80s and 90s.

They are trying to eliminate public education. Not just public higher education, public education. All of it. Then we'll be in a fine kettle of fish.

Breeding is more than just getting females pregnant. There have to be actual offspring, born and raised safe and healthy, so they can eventually breed. Being good parents is generally pretty important from an evolutionary standpoint, although there are numerous species which sidestep this in various ways - e.g. cuckoos getting some other nurturing suckers to do the hard work.

Visit some low income areas in the midwest and southern US and that may change your mind. Areas with the highest teen pregnancy rates in the nation, people who are grandparents in their 30s, it really doesn't seem to take a whole lot of effort to raise offspring to potential breeding age.

Don't blame the victims of this mess. Whats happening is a concentration of wealth unlike any the world has ever seen. If we keep going at the rate we are, there isnt going to be any middle class in the US in just a few years. Just lots and lots of poor people and a fairly small number relatively speaking of wealthy people.

The poor and especially the former middle class are going to be in desperate financial straights.

This isn't some tropical country where people can live in a paper shack.
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Online blueskull

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #112 on: February 01, 2018, 12:15:01 pm »
Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.

It's a cultural thing. We were educated from kindergarten that the "better" students get more attention from teachers, and the "worse" students get tossed and ignored.
Taiwan has realized general democracy in early 2000s, and social hierarchy and level discrimination is still very severe even till this day.
Same can be said for Japan and Korea, though they have adopted western value half century ago. Workplace bullying and social level discrimination are still norm there.
Competitive and exclusion is just eastern Asian culture.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2018, 12:18:43 pm »
Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.



Some will come here.. for a while. Once wages fall a bit more.

But the fact is, it wont last. Because automation will impact the whole world. Also, the competition for the remaining jobs will become a lot more intense for Americans.

Because the imminent dissolving of barriers to corporations, under the multilateral trading system, allowing companies to use their cheapest employees anywhere they operate, even as temps,  is designed so that wages in countries like the US will fall, not so that wages in places like China would rise.

Also, falling demand. AI will mean mass unemployment. But the services liberalization which means big changes - will hit us much sooner and much harder than automation. Because those jobs will be the bread and butter jobs that communities depend on.

This will really pull the rug out from under millions of people.

No matter how cheap they will work for, their rights are going to be framed as the reason they cant get that job. Its really a skillful strategy to divide the nation and the world without being obvious about it.
.
Why should somebody pay some worker - say an engineer, $60,000 a year in the US, when they can get one for $4000 a year from some MNC, say, a subcontractor.

Thats the future.  Yes, wages will rise in China for the best skilled, but the most skilled seem to be doing their best to go to places like Western Europe or Canada or Australia or even the US,  if they can. Where the pay is higher, at least for now, and there is a work life balance. But eventually, the wages here will not be any better, while the cost of living will be much higher, so many people from foreign countries will go back. Leaving us in a hell of a big mess.

Can we beat China on wages? How low can we go? It wont matter, we wont have the education.

Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:55:56 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #114 on: February 01, 2018, 12:33:29 pm »
This is totally understandable given the rapidity of change and recent history.

It wasnt that long ago that China was mostly a backwards nation. I think there is likely no other country on Earth that has changed as rapidly.

China has actually invested a lot more in its poor areas than has India. Sad to say. India only passed a law mandating that there be public primary education in 2013, and they still haven't funded it! 

And nobody even calls them out on it.   Idiots..

The problem is, the era of large scale work in industry is largely over. And really there is nothing to take its place unless we suddenly wise up and realize, its going to be a mess which we wont have any solution for.

We need to become willing to invest a lot more in people than we are.   

James, I know you dont always agree with the things I say, but I'm telling you the truth, we who care about our country and our planet need to stop arguing about trivial things and get down to work on what we want our future to be.   We also have to stop taking advantage of one another.

The whole world is going to be an ugly place because of all this greed. If the current trends continue, I give us 50-50 odds to survive this century.


Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.

It's a cultural thing. We were educated from kindergarten that the "better" students get more attention from teachers, and the "worse" students get tossed and ignored.
Taiwan has realized general democracy in early 2000s, and social hierarchy and level discrimination is still very severe even till this day.
Same can be said for Japan and Korea, though they have adopted western value half century ago. Workplace bullying and social level discrimination are still norm there.
Competitive and exclusion is just eastern Asian culture.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:40:29 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #115 on: February 01, 2018, 12:46:48 pm »
If it wasnt for the US we wouldnt have GATS which has really been a key problem, by forcing the privatization of the things we need to be doing.  If Americans knew the facts about it, we would go berserk. So they hide it.

The worst kinds of people, the oligarchs in countries like India and China got into this GATS deal with the worst kinds of people in the US. They think they are very slick, and it is very slick, I'll give them that. Its an end run around democracy. So - it gets rid of the safety valve..

Its so slick its likely to cause a war if we don't call it out for the scam it is. And everybody will be totally confused as to what it is their countries stand for and what they are fighting for because everything is so dishonest its all backwards.   Thats a diagnostic sign of the very worst kinds of frauds.

Those of us non-sociopaths can only hope that China eventually develops to the point where people do not go there to set up shop because they can exploit the local population to become wealthy on the backs of others.

It's a cultural thing. We were educated from kindergarten that the "better" students get more attention from teachers, and the "worse" students get tossed and ignored.
Taiwan has realized general democracy in early 2000s, and social hierarchy and level discrimination is still very severe even till this day.
Same can be said for Japan and Korea, though they have adopted western value half century ago. Workplace bullying and social level discrimination are still norm there.
Competitive and exclusion is just eastern Asian culture.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline TheNewLab

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2018, 05:43:52 pm »
I have to comment on this because I have been wondering how someone with Green/Red color blindness could work in this field. It is so common that you are tested for it at the DMV. (stoplights, also why they are standard vertical location)

I have friends have have this, and each time I see a red LCD Test equipment screen and a green one near each other. I think OOooh. s--t
Resistors, small caps and chokes, good schematic diagrams, which color LED to install...

I am just waiting for a mixed up RED/GREEN LCD screen

my heart hurts for anyone serious about this field and how she/he negotiates the challenges, has anyone with color blindness shared their story of how they manage?
 

Online james_s

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2018, 01:20:12 am »
I don't really see most of those things as being big issues anymore. When was the last time you saw color banded through-hole components in a commercial product? How many engineers are installing red and green LEDs by hand? What difference does it make what colors are used on a schematic so long as it has reasonable contrast? There are positions where good color vision will matter, but engineering is a broad topic and plenty of positions won't.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2018, 05:24:51 am »
Incidentally, I mentioned color blindness to some engineers from a major power distribution supply company -- they confirmed that linemen must pass a color discrimination test (the polkadots kind).

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Online Nusa

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2018, 06:36:49 am »
I have to comment on this because I have been wondering how someone with Green/Red color blindness could work in this field. It is so common that you are tested for it at the DMV. (stoplights, also why they are standard vertical location)

I have friends have have this, and each time I see a red LCD Test equipment screen and a green one near each other. I think OOooh. s--t
Resistors, small caps and chokes, good schematic diagrams, which color LED to install...

I am just waiting for a mixed up RED/GREEN LCD screen

my heart hurts for anyone serious about this field and how she/he negotiates the challenges, has anyone with color blindness shared their story of how they manage?

First off, colorblindness is a word that is abused to cover anyone that's been diagnosed as having trouble seeing the normal range of colors, without any description of the severity. In fact, nearly all so-called colorblind people still see colors well enough to function in general society, often without anyone taking notice.

My own case is fairly mild in the red-green area. For instance, I've been known to see light green houses as grey houses since I was a child. Traffic lights are no problem. Resistor codes are no problem in bright light. Web pages that choose to use red text on black background are annoyingly low contrast for me. But mostly, it's had no effect on my life at all. In my software career, it's actually helped me in interface color choices, because I'm more aware of contrast and color choices. Well, once we started having decent color displays...I started in the monochrome era of computing.

Now I have a female friend who has a serious case of R-G. Her father was also colorblind, and her mother clearly had a recessive gene for it. Even she still sees very bright reds and greens. Traffic lights are usually ok for her, depending on how bright they are, plus there are other clues as mentioned. Even those areas with horizontal traffic lights have non-color clues (red is leftmost in the US). Indicator LED's, particularly the two-color variety, are another matter. She can see they're lit, but often can't tell the difference between red and green. Color clues in computer games can also frustrate her. But so far as daily life goes, color isn't a showstopper. So occasionally she has to ask someone in certain cases. But generally speaking she's well adapted to life on her own.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2018, 07:02:49 am »
Traffic signal heads use a deep (bluish) green lens which is normally distinguishable by RG colour blind people. This held up the development of LED signal heads  for a while (in the UK at least), until the right shade of green LED became available.

It's not a perfect solution of course but, in combination with positional cues, it helps.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 07:05:06 am by Gyro »
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2018, 02:41:46 am »
Quote
which color LED to install

On that basis, the rest of us should be banned from installing water-clear LEDs.

 

Offline carlsfootprints

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Re: Do employers have a right to discriminate against color-blindness?
« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2018, 05:00:54 pm »
I am having difficulty as well on certain colors like red to green, yellow to green. But for Blue to red, I can easily distinguish that.

I wasn't accepted on a telco job after the last medical screening because I failed Ishihara test. I already went to a series of interview and exam before they rejected me. Lucky, I got a design engineering job after I failed there  ;D
 


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