EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

General => Jobs => Topic started by: Spikee on August 10, 2015, 07:38:00 am

Title: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Spikee on August 10, 2015, 07:38:00 am
I'm often amazed at the salaries one can expect as an EE in countries like USA or AUS while those same jobs pay less in equally expensive or more expensive countries in western Europe.

Europe generally has better pension and health benefits defined by law but the tax laves are quite high.
The base bracket in the Netherlands is 34% income tax, going up to 50% for higher salaries (<100K euro).

In the news there are often reports like "we are running out of engineers" or "Huge shortage of technicians for ..." while the salaries stay the same or even go down because of "crisis" and no indexation of some salaries.

After 5-10 years of experience there is very little grow in salary unless one goes into management positions.

 For this comparison it will be based on info on payscale.com for a Electrical engineer. Ex income tax.

-Germany:
(http://i.imgur.com/BnsLSOT.png)

-Belgium:
(http://i.imgur.com/K5BFMBc.png)

-Netherlands:
(http://i.imgur.com/Cozm3MM.png)

-France: ~25 - 35K euro

-UK:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZdKm9Op.png)
Median is 40K euro

-USA:
(http://i.imgur.com/vyuvjf7.png)
From what I have heard 100-120K euro is possible with some experience

-AUS:
(http://i.imgur.com/0fRnIxn.png)
68K AUD is 45K euro, from what I have heard 70-100K is possible with some expirience (100k = 67k euro).

Tax wedge by country:
(http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/Figure-2.png)

A quick calculation with 40K euro salary ex tax in the netherlands:
29.4% income tax, 11.7K in taxes , 28K left

Are you very lucky and earn 80K euro:
40.5% income tax, 32K in tax, 47.6K left

Of course there are many deductibles but those are to hard to list here.

All in all it seems that it is not that bad after all in western europe. While the US salary is significantly higher I'm not sure of there is "much left" after pension, all the taxes etc...

Germany seems to be the best country to be an EE in. Reasonable wages, good healthcare and pension? Low house prices compared to NL and low costs of ownership for cars and motorcycles. Reasonable infrastructure(NL is better in this).

Still compared to lower end jobs like non university in the technical field the EE jobs don't pay that much more  for way more involvement in my opinion. With all these companies that are complaining about shortage of technicians they should really up there side of the bargain and pay more.

The salaries for management and CEO's for medium to large companies  is ridiculous compared to the workers.

What are your experiences and opinions?
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: IanB on August 10, 2015, 07:56:02 am
The salaries for electronics engineering generally seem low compared to other branches of engineering (and it has been this way for as long as I can remember).

I speculate that part of this might relate to the nature of the job. In most fields a professional engineer will have scope to expand beyond the purely technical into team leadership, project management, customer interaction and so forth. The projects themselves will generally be large capital projects and have a high value associated with them, or will involve production lines with high value products. This all may add to the value of the engineer and the salary that goes with the job.

Electronics seems to be associated with a relentless drive to produce widgets at the lowest price possible. There also seems to be scope for self-taught entrants to the field who can specialize in narrow areas without necessarily going through broad professional training and potentially needing to satisfy professional registration requirements. These factors would tend to drive salaries downwards. (That said, software matches the same pattern, and software can pay well.)

Anyway, to come back to my first point, electronics engineering has always come low down in salary surveys. If you are after the rewards, pick something else like mechanical, chemical, mining, petroleum engineering...
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Spikee on August 10, 2015, 08:11:29 am
If I was in it for the money than I should have stopped studying after my high school diploma as an Industrial electrician and PLC programmer with various certificates. 80 euro an hour is standard for that kind of business and time is always of the essence. Wages of 60-100K euro are possible depending on the area that is focused on. It is just that it is boring as bat shit plc programming :)

Still I'm at the opinion that the wages are low compared to other lower lever technical jobs. To get a better compensation you basically have to start your own company and do some sort of consulting. Allowing you to bill 50+ euro an hour on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Icarus on August 10, 2015, 08:20:07 am
I belive we -all those low paid engineers- should unite, build self-replicating evil robots and destroy "salesman"'s economic system. We may destroy the earth but that's ok I guess
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: nctnico on August 10, 2015, 08:30:30 am
It is just that it is boring as bat shit plc programming :)
Depends on what you are doing. Someone I know is a high level PLC programmer and does one interesting project after the other all around the world. Usually projects other PLC 'programmers' can't do so there is definitely a market for high end PLC programmers.

Anyway, if you are good with electronics and embedded firmware programming you can do much better than 36k euro but you have to find an employer who can turn your efforts into money efficiently.

Besides all that you have to take into account that an employee costs 3 times his/her salary in the NL.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Spikee on August 10, 2015, 09:39:39 am
This tools tells me it is about 1.25 times the bruto salary , not 2,3 times :
http://www.berekenhet.nl/ondernemen/loonkosten-werkgever.html (http://www.berekenhet.nl/ondernemen/loonkosten-werkgever.html)

As for wages I did a search on nationale vacature bank and most said "market conform salaries" and the few that showed numbers were between 2600 and 3200 ex tax a month for 5-10 years experience which seems low for me.

Im not sure if this sector falls under any CAO but if it does than your not that much better off.

The salaries that the big one's offer like ASML several other companies out of the Eindhoven area do not seem that high ether (based on salary postings on tweakers forum).

It seems that being your own boss pays off in the long run due to tax provisions but you also have increased risks and costs like additional health insurances and saving for your own pension.

Now I'm not looking for a job so it is fine but I would like to know what "decent" salaries are in your experience in NL. Can be done via private message If it should not be public.

As for plc programming, I have done it for about two years in an professional manner. I did my high school studies in Belgium and my teacher had his own PLC programming / Engineering company. He regularly brought work to school and let the best students work on those projects during practical lessons. In the end I ended up doing the majority of the projects ranging from automated doors to parking garages and small pick and place machines (not the smt kind but packages, pills etc...). While it was fun to do instead of the regular boring practical work it did not challenge me enough to do it for the rest of my career.

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2015, 09:53:16 am
$68K is sounds pretty low for an EE in Australia, although the range is about right
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: KJDS on August 10, 2015, 10:00:22 am
I can't remember when I last met a decent electronics designer in the UK on less than £40k.

I have no idea what scope that survey used to define "electrical engineer"
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on August 10, 2015, 10:02:10 am
In some places newly grads report 6 digits starting salaries and engineers are target for class envy


http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Facebook-pay-a-new-grad-software-engineer (http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Facebook-pay-a-new-grad-software-engineer)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqufHNFP4w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqufHNFP4w)


Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: free_electron on August 10, 2015, 10:15:11 am
I am shocked.
I Guess it depends what industry you are in, but for semiconductors this should be higher.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: nctnico on August 10, 2015, 10:27:12 am
Now I'm not looking for a job so it is fine but I would like to know what "decent" salaries are in your experience in NL. Can be done via private message If it should not be public.
Once you get noticed on LinkedIn by headhunters and have some interesting skills you can expect job offers paying north of 60k euro. But people worth that kind of money are often self employed because very few employers can maximize profit & pay properly for such talent.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Spikee on August 10, 2015, 05:08:38 pm
It seems to be generally more some kind of temporary contracting work.

If you earn 100k euro in USA , how much of that is actually left after taxes , healthcare and pension saving?
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: nctnico on August 10, 2015, 08:42:32 pm
It seems to be generally more some kind of temporary contracting work.
No. For contracting you can easely double that.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: NANDBlog on August 10, 2015, 10:04:08 pm
It is just that it is boring as bat shit plc programming :)
Depends on what you are doing. Someone I know is a high level PLC programmer and does one interesting project after the other all around the world. Usually projects other PLC 'programmers' can't do so there is definitely a market for high end PLC programmers.

Anyway, if you are good with electronics and embedded firmware programming you can do much better than 36k euro but you have to find an employer who can turn your efforts into money efficiently.

Besides all that you have to take into account that an employee costs 3 times his/her salary in the NL.
Yes, I'm afraid this sounds about right. We get absolute crap salaries. My job contains more administrative overhead, meeting, discussion than actual work, and there are days when I'm left without anything to do. And I know I'm doing an excellent job, even my employer thinks so. In the meantime, if I would go to Switzerland, I would earn probably 3-4 times as much as here.
"Back in the old country" I had a starter (!) salary, which was double the nation's (pretty poor) average, here an engineer has to be lucky to even get the average. In the meantime, managers earn like crazy. It doesn't matter, get manager in your job title. There are people working at this company, who have no employees working for them, no team, no nothing, but they are managers.
I was talking to some of the old engineers who were employed in the communist days (not belgium obviously). They talked about an age, when the term you are an engineer actually meant something. Like a good engineer had separate office with a workshop, some had even secretaries. There were assistants, technicians, and a whole team with mixed capabilities at your service. Now I should be glad I can pay the taxes, or go back and work for one third as I earn here. Nice future, right? Maybe I should just go on a ship and move to the US like it is the 1920's again.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: rfeecs on August 11, 2015, 03:46:57 am
The article about salaries for Facebook is no surprise.  Silicon Valley tech salaries are high:
http://blog.sfgate.com/pender/2014/08/21/these-tech-worker-wages-will-astound-you/ (http://blog.sfgate.com/pender/2014/08/21/these-tech-worker-wages-will-astound-you/)

There is a huge range in tech salaries in the US, depending on experience, the type of company (big or small), and location.

I'm a senior design engineer in semiconductors, non manager in a small company in Silicon Valley.  My salary is pretty typical based on people I know, but I have none of the stock purchase plans, retirement fund matching or profit sharing benefits that you can get at a big company.  Those can add up to a substantial bump.

Looking at my last paystub, I pay 33% in payroll taxes. My health insurance is paid by the company.  There is no retirement plan.

The biggest expense here aside from taxes is housing.  The median home price in the US according to Zillow.com is about $180k.  In Santa Clara county, which includes most of Silicon Valley, is about $900k (and that won't buy a mansion, median is $535/square foot).  That's 5x the national median!

Another worry for an aging engineer is having a job when you get older.  The median age at Facebook and Google is under 30: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young/ (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young/)

If you are a working electronics engineer in this area, you can be pretty comfortable, with nothing to complain about.  But I'm sure it is a struggle for other folks who have "real" jobs to try to pay the rent and make a living here.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on August 12, 2015, 01:09:13 am
But people worth that kind of money are often self employed because very few employers can maximize profit & pay properly for such talent.

That's an excellent point.  It's not enough if one is smart and works hard, somebody needs to translate that work to money to cover the salary. That's the value the employer brings in.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: dadler on August 14, 2015, 05:38:35 am
Whether software "engineering" is considered true "engineering" is questionable (e.g. in Canada you can't be titled "Software Engineer" unless you are an actual engineer, so most of my colleagues in Canada have fun titles like "Software Developer" or the fun "Programmer").

Anyways, seems either those charts are misleading or hardware people earn less money than software people do. At least here near Silicon Valley--Which seems a bit backwards to me.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on August 14, 2015, 05:51:05 am
Anyways, seems either those charts are misleading or hardware people earn less money than software people do. At least here near Silicon Valley--Which seems a bit backwards to me.

Weft backward? A software engineer can provide more value because of the low production cost, margins  and scalability. Hardware is becoming a commodity.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: retrolefty on August 14, 2015, 05:59:12 am
Anyways, seems either those charts are misleading or hardware people earn less money than software people do. At least here near Silicon Valley--Which seems a bit backwards to me.

Weft backward? A software engineer can provide more value because of the low production cost, margins  and scalability. Hardware is becoming a commodity.

 Hell yes, what little else does a software type require besides salary? Ding-dongs, Dr. Pepper, pizza.   :box:
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: dadler on August 14, 2015, 06:35:27 am
Anyways, seems either those charts are misleading or hardware people earn less money than software people do. At least here near Silicon Valley--Which seems a bit backwards to me.

Weft backward? A software engineer can provide more value because of the low production cost, margins  and scalability. Hardware is becoming a commodity.

I guess-I suppose I am referring to backwards in the sense that (true) hardware engineering is nuanced and software today is extremely high-level and IMO easier.

So certainly not backwards in terms of value, but backwards in terms of the skills and experience required to produce said value.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: TheElectricChicken on August 14, 2015, 10:58:20 pm
Such a narrow focus on pay in difference countries is unwise.  Moving from Netherlands to a warzone like the USA would be a horrible life decision for the sake of a few dollars. Speaking of warzones, truckdrivers are contracted to the US military and they just look at the good pay. Then they get there and nobody tells them what their job is, they just say 'drive over there' and not mention that it's a warzone, durr. So roadside bombs blow them up, but the best part is that when they get back, they really realise what a disposable commodity they were, because "veteran" makes a great headline, like "Vet's living in cardboard boxes" whereas a contractor doesn't even get paid with a label, they can't even call themselves vets after they have no legs.

Should look at your chances of good health, getting shot, robbed, stabbed, then there is the police who steal everything from you http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-04/us-police-and-prosecutors-fight-retain-barbaric-right-%E2%80%9Ccivil-asset-forfeiture%E2%80%9D (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-04/us-police-and-prosecutors-fight-retain-barbaric-right-%E2%80%9Ccivil-asset-forfeiture%E2%80%9D)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGp_H2uCCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGp_H2uCCk)

Not much good having a few extra dollars when being dead, robbed, sick, or poor in practical sense is the price.

Seems like people are thinking narrow, as if moving somewhere else without thinking would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on August 14, 2015, 11:19:30 pm
Such a narrow focus on pay in difference countries is unwise.  Moving from Netherlands to a warzone like the USA would be a horrible life decision for the sake of a few dollars. Speaking of warzones, truckdrivers are contracted to the US military and they just look at the good pay. Then they get there and nobody tells them what their job is, they just say 'drive over there' and not mention that it's a warzone, durr. So roadside bombs blow them up, but the best part is that when they get back, they really realise what a disposable commodity they were, because "veteran" makes a great headline, like "Vet's living in cardboard boxes" whereas a contractor doesn't even get paid with a label, they can't even call themselves vets after they have no legs.

Should look at your chances of good health, getting shot, robbed, stabbed, then there is the police who steal everything from you http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-04/us-police-and-prosecutors-fight-retain-barbaric-right-%E2%80%9Ccivil-asset-forfeiture%E2%80%9D (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-04/us-police-and-prosecutors-fight-retain-barbaric-right-%E2%80%9Ccivil-asset-forfeiture%E2%80%9D)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGp_H2uCCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGp_H2uCCk)

Not much good having a few extra dollars when being dead, robbed, sick, or poor in practical sense is the price.

Seems like people are thinking narrow, as if moving somewhere else without thinking would be a good idea.

Is this what people watch in Australia?. RT is the propaganda channel owned by the Kremlin. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_and_related_issues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_and_related_issues)
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: TheElectricChicken on August 14, 2015, 11:27:32 pm
Is this what people watch in Australia?. RT is the propaganda channel owned by the Kremlin. 

That's right, and in the UK they watch the bbc which is the propaganda mouthpiece of the UK gov. And in the USA it's a bunch of them. I like Fox news the best.

(http://meathaus.com/wp-content/images/fox-news-shitty-photoshop.jpg)

I love the hair on this one, the whole marge simpson beehive look.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: TheElectricChicken on August 14, 2015, 11:36:54 pm
(https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/hongkong.jpg?w=650)

Actually I want to move to the USA, I can get a job as an EE and then run the teleprompter as a part-time job. I need some fire in my life, some ACTION! some real fun. Which channel is the best in the USA ? I want to work for them, but they are all so fabulous it's so hard to choose.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on August 22, 2015, 08:04:10 am
-Germany:
(http://i.imgur.com/BnsLSOT.png)

-Belgium:
(http://i.imgur.com/K5BFMBc.png)

-Netherlands:
(http://i.imgur.com/Cozm3MM.png)

-France: ~25 - 35K euro

-UK:
(http://i.imgur.com/ZdKm9Op.png)
Median is 40K euro

-USA:
(http://i.imgur.com/vyuvjf7.png)
From what I have heard 100-120K euro is possible with some experience

-AUS:
(http://i.imgur.com/0fRnIxn.png)
68K AUD is 45K euro, from what I have heard 70-100K is possible with some expirience (100k = 67k euro).

[...]

Quote
What are your experiences and opinions?

Well, first you're comparing apples vs oranges here. An Electrical Engineer is something completely different than an Electronics Engineer, with the latter generally being paid better.

Second, "Electronics Engineer" is a pretty broad field, going from i.e. some temp in a factory doing rework on flat screen TVs that failed end test  to highly skilled specialists working on the 200GHz scope. If a country has more of the former then this obviously will skew results downwards.

Also, $72k may sound like a lot when converted to EUR but it isn't if you have to live in the US, especially in the high tech circles like Silicon Valley where rents and living costs are pretty much amongst some the highest in the developed world. Plus there's health insurance costs, property taxes, plus the fact that Americans in general work much longer hours than their European counterparts, all while getting less paid holidays.

Having lived in the US and a few European countries I'd say that in my experience general working conditions and living standards are higher in many Western European countries than in the US. Which, if you look at quality of life, seems to be confirmed by statistics:

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/00011111511 (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/00011111511)

http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp (http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp)

However, another thing is that just because you spent years studying a complex field and then build the next great thing doesn't mean you're necessarily paid the big bucks. Compared what say Safety Engineers or Requirements Managers are often paid the EE salary looks pretty measly in comparison  :(
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ez24 on August 22, 2015, 08:54:14 am
Seems the Canadian warning was off subject (but true).  But there have been a lot of stories like this in the US and as a US citizen, when I carry cash, I am more afraid of the police than thieves (and if you think about it, a thief is more honest).  If you say "yes" to a search and they find cash - they own it not you.  After all they like electronic toys just as much as you do.

So to get back on topic, EEs who earn a lot in the US, be careful when carrying cash that you earn.  ALWAYS check your tail lights and signal when changing lanes. (and save some for those traffic stops)

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on August 22, 2015, 09:41:49 am
So to get back on topic, EEs who earn a lot in the US, be careful when carrying cash that you earn.  ALWAYS check your tail lights and signal when changing lanes. (and save some for those traffic stops)

I had my share of traffic tickets over the years but the police never tried to search my car or on me. I must say they were always polite.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ez24 on August 22, 2015, 11:57:04 am
Quote
I must say they were always polite.
  I live in San Diego and have always had the same experience.  I just do not have enough money  :-DD  My problem is I think they may take my car away from me as not being road worthy.  Seems everything on it is broken, I have to shout to them because the windows do not go down.  I need to stop this hobby and get my windows fixed.  Umm I wonder if anyone here knows how to fix electric car windows?
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Circlotron on August 22, 2015, 01:14:07 pm

Tax wedge by country:
(http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/Figure-2.png)
Tax rates = welfare rates = rate of invasion by illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ez24 on August 22, 2015, 05:16:54 pm
I tried to find the wedge chart and found this one.

England is going down and Iceland going up ?  See what your country is doing.  Mine is going up.

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: TheElectricChicken on August 22, 2015, 09:04:15 pm
The charts don't include countries where there is no income tax at all, like indonesia for example. That place is a paradise for business as there is NO paperwork or council regulations to stop you. You just set up a shop and that's that. Nobody tells you not to.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: SteveC on September 01, 2015, 08:36:04 am

There also seems to be scope for self-taught entrants to the field who can specialize in narrow areas without necessarily going through broad professional training and potentially needing to satisfy professional registration requirements.

Same in Aus.  When I was a computer service engineer, our management claimed they could take someone off the street and train them in a few weeks.  Having spent 10 years gaining my quals, I was not impressed.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: zapta on September 01, 2015, 08:42:14 am
[Same in Aus.  When I was a computer service engineer, our management claimed they could take someone off the street and train them in a few weeks. 

We also have here a street like that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_(street)
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: vodka on September 13, 2015, 03:01:48 am
Spikee  don't complain too , that it could be worse. Here in Spain  for 40k€ per year ,you would pay from  taxes a 40%, besides  paying a 20% for the money that you have saved in the bank ,more the immovable property tax and others taxes. On resume , the table graphic posted by you ,it is wrong .

And here the Engineerer and the Technical Engineerer salaries per  year are 12k - 24k per year, and the recent graduated are worse : jobless or perpetual scholarship (when the maxim time allowed from scholarship is the 2 years )

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Dago on October 02, 2015, 04:05:16 pm
Wages in other European countries seem quite comparable to Finland. With a quick look the average for an electronics designer (first website I checked, but sounds about right) is around 41 k€/year which results in a tax rate of around 28,85% (top that off with a high cost of food/living in general). Free healthcare and retirement savings included in the taxes though and otherwise high quality of life.

For an electrical designer the wages seems to be bit less (like 37k).

I have a feeling that all of the numbers in this topic have seemed fairly low because the titles kinda include the "basic" -kind of engineering in a sense. I bet the numbers would be a fair bit higher when you'd include all more specialized and "senior" etc. positions.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: LY1 on December 22, 2016, 05:46:13 pm
In Lithuania Electronics Engineer with 3 years skills can get 700-750€ (730-782$) in hands after taxes in a month.
40h working time in a week.   
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: DerekG on December 22, 2016, 06:37:21 pm
In Lithuania Electronics Engineer with 3 years skills can get 700-750€ (730-782$) in hands after taxes in a month.
40h working time in a week.

Gee, that's terrible. Either the wages are low or the taxes are high.

I presume the cost of living is quite a lot lower in the Baltic countries over those in Western Europe?
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pelule on December 23, 2016, 07:06:31 am
I assume, it's the salary range of R&D engineers. At least out of my personal view (Germany) the range is far too low otherwise.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: NANDBlog on December 23, 2016, 09:09:49 am
In Lithuania Electronics Engineer with 3 years skills can get 700-750€ (730-782$) in hands after taxes in a month.
40h working time in a week.

Gee, that's terrible. Either the wages are low or the taxes are high.

I presume the cost of living is quite a lot lower in the Baltic countries over those in Western Europe?
Nope. East europe is like a different continent. I've noticed this with many colleagues of mine, they mind dont even register the information, if you say how much an engineer earns in Hungary in my case. They try to rationalize, that living cost is less there. So here is the thing:
Salaries in east europe are 40 to 20% of the ones in west europe. No this is not a mistake, I was earning 3 times as much when I moved here. Yes, living cost is less, but goods aren't. You cannot afford a new car. Or a fancy TV (600 EUR) will cost 1 month of your salary. Fuel is almost the same. You spend considerable amount just paying your utility bills, the rest goes to the bank, because you cannot afford to buy anything out of the pocket. It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.
And there are professions, who are underplayed there. Like doctors, where the salary is 8-10 times in the west. Or look at the minimal wage. Someone with minimal wage will earn ~6 times as much in Luxembourg than in Poland. The two countries are 500 km from each other.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 23, 2016, 09:44:34 am
There is a big push to "liberalise" skilled services in the world, its been going on for more than 20 years, however, we've been blissfully unaware of it in the US which has to be intentional on the part of the media.

However, people need to be aware of both it and the fact that whenever wages are higher than global norms in a country, people are likely scheming to change that situation as soon as possible. Sooner than people think.


"WTO members reviewed the global trade body’s annual report on the state of the international trading environment last week, which reiterated past warnings of a “worryingly high” level of trade-restrictive measures. According to the report, WTO members implemented 182 trade-restrictive measures between mid-October 2015 to mid-October 2016, representing a slight decline from the last reporting period. However, Director-General Roberto Azevêdo warned (https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/spra_e/spra152_e.htm) that this does not necessarily represent a “downward trend” overall, and added that the overall stockpile of these measures remains high.“The last thing the global economy needs today is trade restrictive measures,” Azevêdo said. “They can have a further chilling effect on trade flows, with knock-on effects for economic growth and job creation.”

At least four pending (and several existing US FTAs (international treaties) make it possible for corporations to move their employees around at will, rights which sometimes even allow using their cheapest employees in their most expensive countries, basically making that into a right which countries must allow, a change which I think could under some conditions spell potential disaster for many working people.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ChristopherN on December 29, 2016, 04:08:41 am
EE's with a few years (5) of experience should earn between 35k€ an maybe 72k€ as employees. But there are big differences across Germany. An EE in Berlin will be paid way less than one in the south. The salary may go up with age, but most raises require more work or management skills. Big cooperations like Siemens or all the automotive brands will pay more, small companies will pay less.

Freelancers will make between 60€ and 120€ an hour, most will be around 75€. This is form long term jobs, for example 6 months full time. Shorter jobs will have higher hourly rates (all rates plus 19% VAT).

You can live very well on those salaries, especially if you're not located in Hamburg or Munich.

However, I see many EE's (and other professions) that want to stay in their narrow band of knowledge. This can work in big companies but usually is a no-go for smaller companies. It's a pity cause we have a real problem in Germany, many old owners of small(er) companies are searching for successors. That can be a big chance and lead to higher salaries.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 29, 2016, 06:44:42 am
Here in the US, unless you want to take your life in your hands, people need to consider the cost of health insurance and medical savings accounts which can be QUITE substantial and are likely to rise indefinitely in cost. The only way to address it is as other countries have, via regulation, but (would devolve into lengthy political and economics discussion so not for here)

Just- figure that into the cost of living here in the US. It changes everything. People with some fairly common conditions, even if they are well-to-do,  find it impossible to get decent health care here, unless they leave the health insurance system completely and pay 100% out of pocket.  It adds tremendously to the cost of living and is like a huge weight around the whole country's neck.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: nctnico on December 29, 2016, 06:50:33 am
Just- figure that into the cost of living here in the US. It changes everything. People with some fairly common conditions, even if they are well-to-do,  find it impossible to get decent health care here, unless they leave the health insurance system completely and pay 100% out of pocket.  It adds tremendously to the cost of living and is like a huge weight around the whole country's neck.
This is exactly what I told to someone who moved to the US recently and was pleasantly surprised by the huge salary. At the end of the day you'll have to pay for the days you are sick, your healthcare and retirement. In the NL the rule of thumb is that an employee costs 2.5 to 3 times his/her salary due to all kind of (mandatory) insurance premiums and retirement fund payments.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 29, 2016, 07:02:46 am
Thats not surprising. And the health insurance everybody gets there would cost really big bucks here, (more than most Americans entire salaries) because its far more comprehensive.

This is leading to huge gaps in longevity between rich and poor in some parts of the US.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 29, 2016, 07:16:38 am
One thing that would lower the cost of living in some areas significantly, is a tax on vacant housing so high that it would force absent owners to rent them out.

In some communities there are significant numbers of houses (stand-alone residences usually but some condos) which are owned by absentee owners and not lived in.

Locals in the Bay Area call them "ghost houses".

This may be because absent owners/investors are so wealthy that the hassle of renting it out does not add up to enough profit for them to bother with it, or perhaps because they want a place they can move into with zero lead time, in other words, a ready to go escape hatch from whatever or where-ever they live now.

This practice of buying houses but not using them pushes up the cost of housing some small but significant amount.  How expensive is housing in the Bay Area? So expensive that it is rapidly pricing a great many would be residents out of the market.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: LabSpokane on December 29, 2016, 07:37:55 am
Wow those salaries are low. If they keep paying fuck all for engineers, they can continue to expect an engineer "shortage."  I strongly recommend anyone considering electronics engineering as a profession in the US to become a plumber instead. They literally make in an hour what some electronics engineers listed in these surveys make in one day.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Gyro on December 29, 2016, 07:40:59 am
Thats not surprising. And the health insurance everybody gets there would cost really big bucks here, (more than most Americans entire salaries) because its far more comprehensive.

This is leading to huge gaps in longevity between rich and poor in some parts of the US.

That's what I find so puzzling, there doesn't seem to be the public demand or the political will to do anything about it in the US. From here it seems like even 'Obamacare' is unpopular with the majority of the population and most stories regarding healthcare in the US politicians seem to pour scorn on the 'poor standard' of the NHS in the UK, and prsumably other countries with a state healthcare system (that's how it seems to be reported here anyway).

Is it really that people prefer to pay so much for private medical cover (if they can afford to) and those with most money have the biggest voice (or at least vote) or is it a case of medical bills having got so high because of 'bottomless' insurance pots that it is no longer feasible to have more (Edit:) realistic state provision.

The nearest analogy I can come up with is the way that vetinary bills have shot up here in the last decade or so as most pet owners now have pet insurance.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: razberik on December 29, 2016, 08:29:45 am
Eastern EU, CZ, second largest city with significant amount of EE-related jobs:

Fresh graduate in EE field gets ~1000€ brutto/mo, after all taxation he got ~820€.
Rental of 2-room flat is about 450€/mo.

And it is still considered to be well-payed job.

Taxation includes compulsory healthcare and retirement levy.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 29, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Gyro,

Both the UK and the US are stuck in terms of policy space by little known agreements (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.405.5725&rep=rep1&type=pdf) signed back in the 1990s which greatly complicate everything. In addition to committing us to a gradual one way privatization ("Progressive liberalisation") those agreements also freeze financial services regulations (they actually commit countries to further de-regulation which is totally unwise given the increasingly out of control "too big to fail" international banking..   These deals, some of which are long standing, others of which are new and pending commit countries to open up their services markets to temporary firms, so not just doctors and nurses and teachers, also if they allow it once, potentially large numbers of very low cost engineers. (The use of quotas is currently being challenged in the WTO (https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/india-wto.pdf) in a case aimed at the US but which would also have implications for others.)

These deals might have seemed like a good idea back in the 1990s but they look (to me) like economic suicide now.  Basically a few very well connected very big business lobbies are arguing that the high wages US (and EU)  firms must pay are crimping their global ambitions, and if they could just replace their current high cost employees with cheaper ones by using a combination of so called "Mode Four" and cross border data flows (for the back office workers) they could export more.  My theory is that here where I live they want to use a manufactured (they knew this was going to happen in advance) health care "emergency" as a sort of Trojan Horse to start this wage lowering trade in services going.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Gyro on December 29, 2016, 09:36:04 am
Very interesing references, thank you cdev.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on December 29, 2016, 10:10:40 am
yes, thats ALSO the real reason they are privatizing your NHS. :(

Here in the US the anticipation of (IMO get rich scheme to get ultra cheap workers for far less than they are worth) has corrupted our politics with institutionalized lying and kept our healthcare in a permanent state of dysfunction (as the negotiations dragged on and on and repeatedly collapsed) for more than 20 yrs and we Americans still don't know a damn thing about it.

Around a million people (more than 50k a year) died during that time because they couldn't get health care!

It shows how badly the US media has been (not) doing their job here. God forbid that the world figure out these schemes being pulled on us.

These two sentences are the key to how a key part of it - the governmental services exception (http://www.iatp.org/files/GATS_and_Public_Service_Systems.htm) (which almost NEVER applies) works.

"For the purposes of this Agreement…

(b) 'services' includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;
(c) 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers."

Good explanation can be found in Chapter 2 of "Public Handbook of Trade in Services - FMAT 1..24" at World Bank.org site


Note, I do support international trade in services, just not when its twisted into what amounts to modern day slavery.
We all should be treated fairly, workers, business and the public.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Bud on January 02, 2017, 08:42:04 am
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.

Didn't Soviet Union broke down in 1991 ? It has been 25 years since and you guys were not able  to rebuild your places? How's that Soviet Union's fault? Anyone saying that should walk down to a wall and do this  |O because there is nobody to blame but yourself.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: bson on January 02, 2017, 08:46:35 am
I don't think those numbers are correct in the sense of what engineers make, only for engineers with a generic title.  A senior staff engineer in Silicon Valley or the SF Bay Area in general would have a low end higher than the top end of those figures, and with 20-30 years experience will in many cases top $200k, not counting stock options, benefits, and fringe benefits (like free food).  The numbers quoted in generic surveys like this are pretty much for entry-level, junior positions.  Salaries are slightly lower in other areas, like Seattle or Austin - but cost of living in either of those is MUCH lower, so probably makes it a net toss up.  Besides, if you lived in the SF Bay area the last 20-30 years like me you probably bought a house for $150-$200k with the mortgage long since paid off, so cost of living is likely very reasonable unless you stepped of the boat last week.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: NANDBlog on January 02, 2017, 09:44:16 am
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.

Didn't Soviet Union broke down in 1991 ? It has been 25 years since and you guys were not able  to rebuild your places? How's that Soviet Union's fault? Anyone saying that should walk down to a wall and do this  |O because there is nobody to blame but yourself.
Look at this map:
(http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/4/47/Gross_value_added_per_person_employed_in_relation_to_the_EU-28_average%2C_by_NUTS_2_regions%2C_2014_%28¹%29_%28%25_of_the_EU-28_average%2C_EU-28_%3D_100%29_RYB2016.png)
Notice anything? Look at the map in 1989 if you are not familiar with it.
You only need wishful thinking and positive attitude to quadruple your economy, right? Then please do so.
I give you an example: GDP of Poland 1938: 1000 USD/head, 1990: 1700 USD/head. Same for Italy is 1300 and 16800 (not a typo and that is 1990 dollars). I think that should explain how much the Warsaw pact screwed up East Europe. As I said: you dont know what it is like.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: MasterBuilder on January 02, 2017, 10:49:18 am
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.

Didn't Soviet Union broke down in 1991 ? It has been 25 years since and you guys were not able  to rebuild your places? How's that Soviet Union's fault? Anyone saying that should walk down to a wall and do this  |O because there is nobody to blame but yourself.

How long does it take to educate a new generation of people who can rebuild a country, lets say 15 years and then for these people to make a difference that's going to be another 15 years. Speaking from my own experience of Poland I think its making great progress with services and infrastructure. These are long term projects it is more likely to take 50+ years for parity with western Europe to be reached. There are plenty of well educated and hard working people in these countries to make it happen.

Back on topic, from experience in a small engineering company in Ireland, senior engineers were around the 50K level. They would be expected to work about 47 hours per week for this, contracted work hours were 40 hours. Other engineers were on about 40K and would work about 44 hours per week.
In a larger engineering company here, senior engineers earn less than 60K and would have some benefits.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on January 02, 2017, 11:11:18 am
Has anybody heard of the idea of the Gross National Happiness?  (GNH) measure, which originated in Bhutan, of all places. Its a concept which is catching on fast.  I like that idea a lot.

With GNP, because of FTAs and various back room deals we're on a one way road with no exits to a place that nobody wants. But with GNH, everything changes.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: vodka on January 12, 2017, 02:59:24 am
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.

Didn't Soviet Union broke down in 1991 ? It has been 25 years since and you guys were not able  to rebuild your places? How's that Soviet Union's fault? Anyone saying that should walk down to a wall and do this  |O because there is nobody to blame but yourself.

How long does it take to educate a new generation of people who can rebuild a country, lets say 15 years and then for these people to make a difference that's going to be another 15 years. Speaking from my own experience of Poland I think its making great progress with services and infrastructure. These are long term projects it is more likely to take 50+ years for parity with western Europe to be reached. There are plenty of well educated and hard working people in these countries to make it happen.


Poland grew thanks to European Funds to Development that all the CEE members paid.  Furthermore, the polish  still have  their  national currency  after  staying for 13 years when they will adapt  their currency to Euro . We will see that they do.

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on January 12, 2017, 08:07:47 am
Unfortunately, the Eastern European countries made some bad trade deals with Western European nations in the first few years after the end of the Cold War, etc. (i.e. " Intra-EU BITs ") and now are seemingly bound by them in-perpetuity.

Even when it clearly makes no economic sense for them, its being done on principle.

Lesson to be taken away, don't let your country be swindled into signing trade deals that end the ability to change key policies - taking them off the table perpetually. 

There simply is no way they can be made compatible with democracy.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: XynxNet on January 12, 2017, 08:41:46 am
How long does it take to educate a new generation of people who can rebuild a country, lets say 15 years and then for these people to make a difference that's going to be another 15 years. Speaking from my own experience of Poland I think its making great progress with services and infrastructure. These are long term projects it is more likely to take 50+ years for parity with western Europe to be reached.
That's about right for a best case scenario.
In germany it took 40 years of clever local economy politics and a massiv federal subsidaries program to change bavaria from a poor, mostly argicultural state into one of our most successful high tech industry states.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ptricks on February 06, 2017, 10:44:56 pm
I think it also depends on what you are comparing when you say electrical engineer. 
People that design transmission lines for power plants make more than someone who designs a widget to sell for under $5.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: dorin on February 28, 2017, 08:55:38 pm
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.
How's that Soviet Union's fault? Anyone saying that should walk down to a wall and do this  |O because there is nobody to blame but yourself.

Look at the map in 1989 if you are not familiar with it.
You only need wishful thinking and positive attitude to quadruple your economy, right? Then please do so.

You guys are both correct, but it's a good idea to consider what 'blame' really means. Is it the same thing as 'cause'?
It is pretty obvious that the Soviet Union is a cause of that unfortunate situation, but are they to blame? Well, not really, because we can argue "But why did Eastern Europe let themselves invaded?" or "Why did they choose to live in that geographical area". And then, who is to blame for what the Soviet Union has become? There are other historical causes behind that, and so on we can chase down the blame up to Adam and Eve if we really want.
TLDR: It's important to be responsible of the present, but to also keep in mind what caused it.

Now more on topic: Indeed there seem to be significant differences in salaries across the world (and not just in engineering), some of them are illusory when considering all aspects and some are pretty darn real. People are commodities on a free market so feel free to move if you can.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Galenbo on May 12, 2017, 03:45:53 am
It sucks and everyone hates it. [censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.
Blame communism. It still destroys economic activity, exactly the same way, independent of the regime that applies it.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on May 13, 2017, 07:37:54 am
At the Yalta conference postwar Europe was divided up on a cocktail napkin.


Shhh!
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on May 13, 2017, 07:48:58 am
TPTB in some countries now. are so selfish they are totally in it for themselves so refuse to invest in their own countries instead preferring to extract as much rent as possible from their "tenants" and then evict them.


Germany is far far ahead of the US in terms of investment in society.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: mc172 on May 13, 2017, 07:55:51 am
Look at the map in 1989 if you are not familiar with it.

I searched for quite a while to find out how to do this, but couldn't find anything. Please can you explain how to do this? I'm genuinely interested.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: NANDBlog on May 16, 2017, 01:57:50 am
Look at the map in 1989 if you are not familiar with it.

I searched for quite a while to find out how to do this, but couldn't find anything. Please can you explain how to do this? I'm genuinely interested.
Step one, build time machine
Step two... OK, I'm not a native english.
"Look at the map,how it looked like in 1989, if you are not familiar with it.
Here it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Curtain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Curtain) maps on the right side.

How long does it take to educate a new generation of people who can rebuild a country, lets say 15 years and then for these people to make a difference that's going to be another 15 years.
And it will take another 50 or so years, until people who were raised in it, and got used to that era are not going to vote anymore.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on May 31, 2017, 11:43:54 am
I think what we currently have is what's called a market failure due to lack of competition between rival political systems. Certainly there would be little argument that Communism sucks the life out of society in certain ways, but a similar argument could be made for Neoliberalism (or corporatism) , in fact thats what the definition of profit extraction is.



------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVQhQqP2UDw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVQhQqP2UDw)

If you  listen to advocates of neoliberalism-  on the surface it pushes all the right buttons but their claims (especially their taking credit for the last 50 years of gains which were largely due to technology and therefore apolitical)  do not stand up to close scrutiny. 

Neither did Communism's. I think what happened was basically that the same kinds of crooks ended up in charge under both systems, they just changed their shirts or something.

Note, I am not trying to say Mr. Moore ("Mad Mike") - who is in the video, is a crook. In my opinion he is by far one of the more articulate advocates for neoliberalism and the corporate state. However, he has been an extremely divisive figure because its a divisive agenda, fighting as it is against democracy and "mob rule" as they put it.

And if you listen to the end, the questions brought up are good ones and he never answered them.


You know what they say about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.  People should know upfront that the main goal of the neoliberal agenda is putting corporations in the drivers seat, forever, basically emasculating voting and elections so they can't do anything of economic importance. And they are almost there, at least here in the US.

Another huge goal is lowering wages, a lot.

And they have no idea what people are going to do in that situation. They don't really care and certainly don't have any answers.  Its going to be a big disaster that creates more problems than it could ever solve. (They just want more profits, not to help the Third World in any way as they say.)

-------

Quote from: Galenbo on 2017-05-11, 11:45:53 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=52109.msg1206096#msg1206096)>Quote from: NANDBlog on 2016-12-22, 17:09:49 (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=52109.msg1097004#msg1097004)
It sucks and everyone hates it.
[censored] you soviet union, its all your fault.
Blame communism. It still destroys economic activity, exactly the same way, independent of the regime that applies it.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on May 31, 2017, 12:45:00 pm
There is a shift to "deindustrialization" as people become less crucial to manufacturing. Thats behind a lot of slow or no growth. There is a good argument that society should not be so focused on growth and instead push for sustainability and quality of life/work life balance. As people will have more and more free time and likely retire earlier and earlier, there should be more opportunities for people to spend time with friends and family instead of working themselves to death in an ever more competitive race to the bottom.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: 4CX35000 on June 24, 2017, 11:01:42 pm
I can't remember when I last met a decent electronics designer in the UK on less than £40k.

I have no idea what scope that survey used to define "electrical engineer"

Depends on were you work and who you work for. I know a couple of companies were a engineer employed by the company for some 20 odd years will be paid £45k or higher and yet a new engineer with experience will only get paid £28k due to the way the employers manipulates the contracts. Unfortunately not everybody finds it easy to up sticks and live in the Cambridge fens or the south east of England to find a better job and therefore have to make do with what they can find locally.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: Galenbo on September 29, 2017, 07:31:03 pm
...In the news there are often reports like "we are running out of engineers" or "Huge shortage of technicians for ..."
and then you go search for a job that requires an engineering degree and only find secretary jobs masked as "project engineer", sales positions, or "manager", manager for a team of 6 analphabetics to go destroy previously good working machines.
In my area, the answer to "what software will I use everyday/week" is "Office and inhouse Sap" in 95% of the cases.

The reports in the media are a call to enhance importing people from cheaper countries, so wages can drop further.
There is no lack of engineers, but a huge lack of non-engineers who understand the difference between U and I, and that you cannot create cold, but only can take heat away. And who understand solar roadways is a scam.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ondo on October 17, 2017, 07:54:54 pm
Spikee  don't complain too , that it could be worse. Here in Spain  for 40k€ per year ,you would pay from  taxes a 40%, besides  paying a 20% for the money that you have saved in the bank ,more the immovable property tax and others taxes. On resume , the table graphic posted by you ,it is wrong .

And here the Engineerer and the Technical Engineerer salaries per  year are 12k - 24k per year, and the recent graduated are worse : jobless or perpetual scholarship (when the maxim time allowed from scholarship is the 2 years )

Actually income tax for 40K€ is about ~30%, you are paying 40% only for the last 7K€ (it's a progressive tax).  In any case, the main problem in Spain is that there's simply no jobs for EE.

I'm not any genius, but I have my Bsc and Msc on electronics, ~10 years of experience doing pcb design, mostly with altium. When I look for jobs, all you find as EE ends up being QA, certification or paper pushing.

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: nctnico on October 17, 2017, 11:45:02 pm
Spikee  don't complain too , that it could be worse. Here in Spain  for 40k€ per year ,you would pay from  taxes a 40%, besides  paying a 20% for the money that you have saved in the bank ,more the immovable property tax and others taxes. On resume , the table graphic posted by you ,it is wrong .

And here the Engineerer and the Technical Engineerer salaries per  year are 12k - 24k per year, and the recent graduated are worse : jobless or perpetual scholarship (when the maxim time allowed from scholarship is the 2 years )
Actually income tax for 40K€ is about ~30%, you are paying 40% only for the last 7K€ (it's a progressive tax).  In any case, the main problem in Spain is that there's simply no jobs for EE.
I find that hard to believe. I know there are several high tech companies in Spain which could probably use an extra brain. You might be living in the wrong area though.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on October 18, 2017, 12:53:43 am
Many labor markets are in limbo pending resolution of a least two services agreements (plus regional agreements) two of which which have been respectively in a process of negotiation for 20 years (GATS), and are almost completed (TISA).

They collectively frame a future world where all regulatory activity "affecting trade in services" is frozen at existing or past levels, government services of all kinds - unless in a sector which is completely noncommercial "rendered as an exercise of governmental authority" are completely privatized and deregulated;  with a race to the bottom on wages.

The deals make it impossible for people to solve problems by voting unless the taxpayers compensate multinational corporations in advance for the fictitious and denial based (based on unsustainable situations and requirements) "expected lost profits".  Words don't describe how dishonest and illegitimate this GATS scheme and its progeny TISA is.  The Indian "Trade Facilitation Agreement on Services" because it attempts to re-legitimize a utterly illegitimate GATS "agreement" is no better. One only has to look at India to see the effects of neoliberalism, crushing persistant poverty and inequality.

Here are some links on the pending Trade in Services Agreement:

http://www.thefutureworldofwork.org/media/35389/tisa-foul-play-uni-global-union-web-spreads.pdf (http://www.thefutureworldofwork.org/media/35389/tisa-foul-play-uni-global-union-web-spreads.pdf)

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2017/07/TiSA%20Troubles_Final.pdf (https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2017/07/TiSA%20Troubles_Final.pdf)

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2014/04/TISA_Versus_Public_Services.pdf (https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2014/04/TISA_Versus_Public_Services.pdf)

https://www.citizen.org/sites/default/files/public-citizen-comments-on-international-services-agreement.pdf (https://www.citizen.org/sites/default/files/public-citizen-comments-on-international-services-agreement.pdf)

https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/reports/tisa-versus-public-services (https://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/reports/tisa-versus-public-services)

To effectuate this huge dismantlement of national regulation by new and far more byzantine and unaccountable international regulation they give new "rights" to foreign firms to sell (temp skilled workers labor and other) "services" in other nations and pay lower wages to their workers, free of "interference" in perpetuity.

Since its done in treaties, reversing this is made democracy-proof, the changes become for all practical purposes, irreversible.  This could become a potential disaster for countries to have key aspects of their economies captured, with domestic firms put at a huge potential disadvantage in higher wage countries, and so little flexibility to change policy.

 |O  :palm:

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pinkman on January 21, 2018, 06:25:10 am
I wonder what will happen with TISA now that USA has a president that tries to put the working people first and doesn't seem to be owned by anyone, practically the polar opposite of the last guy.  It was amazing to see the working class arming themselves to the teeth expecting war, now things look ok for the short term but I guess we will see if he can drain enough swamp to prevent more major corruption in next election. 
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on January 23, 2018, 01:13:31 pm
Pinkman,

Bluntly, we're not out of the woods, we're the turkey and its a few days before Thanksgiving.

I don't even know where to start.

No, they have not given up on anything, we're dreaming if we fall for their trick.

Fast Track is six years and multiple bad agreements are already there.. They have already been signed.

We've been lied to so much we don't know truth when we see it, we've been brainwashed into thinking its fake news. Read up on what regulatory capture, no, state capture looks like. State meaning country.

And GATS, and ISDS and many similar "Trojan Horse Clauses" which are the keys to the whole scheme, the biggest thefts, because they take policy space and the right to regulate away! (that ends real democracy, turning politics and politicians into a sham,  into a parody of itself), effectuating a second enclosure of everything worth having. Forever.

They are literally stealing the whole planet from its people, by stealth. 

"Adverse possession"

But its so obviously illegitimate, they are hiding it because Americans just would laugh in their lying shameless faces,

And NO Virginia, that does NOT help the poor.. Helping the rich steal more does not help the poor.

They are slicker than slick.

Pray!
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: NANDBlog on January 23, 2018, 08:10:49 pm
I don't even know where to start.
Please don't start. In fact finish it finally, please. Nobody here cares about your conspiracy theories. Even if you think it is true, nobody cares. We will suffer and die stupid, and you should be fine with that.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pinkman on January 24, 2018, 01:58:36 pm
rude emotional nandblog should go hang with like kind instead of spewing vitriol on electrical forum please and thank you
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pinkman on January 24, 2018, 02:11:49 pm
Pinkman,

Bluntly, we're not out of the woods, we're the turkey and its a few days before Thanksgiving.

I don't even know where to start.

No, they have not given up on anything, we're dreaming if we fall for their trick.

Fast Track is six years and multiple bad agreements are already there.. They have already been signed.

We've been lied to so much we don't know truth when we see it, we've been brainwashed into thinking its fake news. Read up on what regulatory capture, no, state capture looks like. State meaning country.

And GATS, and ISDS and many similar "Trojan Horse Clauses" which are the keys to the whole scheme, the biggest thefts, because they take policy space and the right to regulate away! (that ends real democracy, turning politics and politicians into a sham,  into a parody of itself), effectuating a second enclosure of everything worth having. Forever.

They are literally stealing the whole planet from its people, by stealth. 

"Adverse possession"

But its so obviously illegitimate, they are hiding it because Americans just would laugh in their lying shameless faces,

And NO Virginia, that does NOT help the poor.. Helping the rich steal more does not help the poor.

They are slicker than slick.

Pray!

I will research this more as it genuinely interests me.  It seems that many know that something (well, lots of things) are very wrong, even if they can't understand it all, and have enough of this uneasy feeling that they are 'prepping' in ways I never imagined.  I know old ladies buying guns, good city folk learning to grow their own food and trying to get variances from township so they can keep chickens (and even goats LOL) in their backyards and most of them buying the "tools of their trade" or the tools of a trade they would like to take up, and learning as much about it as they can.  In the end, we will be OK.  Just look back to 1776.  It will be more difficult this time, as the cancer is much harder to recognize and more deeply embedded, but all of this nonsense - Being in bed with communists and socialists at an economic level, appeasing fascists in the name of anti-fascism, appeasing globalists and "specialists" of all flavors with "common sense" laws which make no sense and serve only to line the pockets of some snake - I think it will be a catalyzing event that will bring the good people in the USA (and other in their countries too!) closer together, and will cause the cancerous ones to consume each other as they fight for the last word, dollar, and scrap of food.

People shouldn't forget.  "Don't tread on me".  The republic came together, won, and will win again.  This cancerous pseudo-democracy will fall sooner or later and things will be set right again. 
OR communist china will nuke the whole world when they go for a steal during the chaos, then realize that they can't win against us and are too arrogant to accept a loss  :-DD
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: cdev on January 24, 2018, 03:19:31 pm
pinkman,

Don't drink the hate flavored KoolAid.

The TiSA links I posted earlier are good.

Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pinkman on January 24, 2018, 03:34:06 pm
I won't - I strive to continuously keep a good low-pass filter on my trigger input and try to keep my output ripple well in check.  I hope I didn't sound hateful by using the term 'cancerous' but it seemed appropriate.  I truly believe that the 'cancer' will destroy itself in the end.  I'll just be in my barn with my chickens, eating goat cheese with my neighbor while we tinker on some XT machine while it all happens   :-+
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: pinkman on January 24, 2018, 03:38:04 pm
I really like chickens by the way.  They are way cooler than many people give them credit for.  Pretty sure I can teach one to solder.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: gregariz on April 10, 2018, 12:29:49 pm
Depends on were you work and who you work for. I know a couple of companies were a engineer employed by the company for some 20 odd years will be paid £45k or higher and yet a new engineer with experience will only get paid £28k due to the way the employers manipulates the contracts. Unfortunately not everybody finds it easy to up sticks and live in the Cambridge fens or the south east of England to find a better job and therefore have to make do with what they can find locally.
That's the fundamental problem. At present there are only a few places in the world where you should be working if making good money is something that matters to you. In that regard the US still comes out on top. They pay for qualifications (regardless of the arguments against) so there are clear pay differentials up the ladder. By the time you make Senior Principal Engineer or Technical Fellow (both Sr Manager/Director level posts) in one of the larger US electronics companies you will be pulling US$150-200K. On that you will have an effective tax rate of no more than about 25% (my accountant has had it as low as 19%). So you ask yourself - if you are making US$120K as a Senior Engineer how do you value money? At that you can buy an apartment clean and done in 3 years. I have spent 12 years in the US and have probably made more than an entire 30 year career in Australia or the UK - but you are away from home and family. It seems the only thing you can bank on is you can't have it all.
Title: Re: Engineering salaries western EU , UK , AUS, USA
Post by: ^_^ on April 15, 2018, 12:54:24 pm
Hey, don't you guys forget there are things you cannot buy!
While you might have a nice pay as EE in Europe if you're into beaches, heat and sunshine, you'll be willing to pay more for rent and overall living to be in Australia for example.
Same if you're into cutting edge technology and a place where most of stuff happens: USA's Valley.
So salaries & tax only provide some overview :)

Cheers!