Any schedule for new KiCad stable? Will there be a call for testers?

[timofonic]

Hello.

I'm really excited too see the next stable, this is a very much needed release.

I have some concerns that would be amazing if KiCad Team replies about it:

- Are there some kind of schedule to follow before publishing the new final release? And a list of priority tasks?
* There was a date about July, but we are already at two thirds of month.
- Will there be a call for testers for a testing period in a beta and/or release candidate?
* I offer to help on it before September if detailed guidelines are provided about it.
- Are there plans to improve the website for the next stable release? Are there some official webmaster in the KiCad Team?
- Is the list of KiCad Team members of only active members? If not, any plan to specify it? Are there clear tasks of interest for each developer?
- Will GAL be used as default and Cairo or OpenGL backends?
* As an user, I'm unable to understand it. I just want a very fast and user-friendly user interface without lockups or slowdowns.
- Why KiCad Developers mailing list isn't open for subscription?
* Lots Open Source projects development mailing lists are open for subscription and that makes easier for occasional programmers or advanced users to provide feedback and patches.
* I can provide successful examples if needed.
* Do developers use a formal email in the form of @kicad-pcb.org ? If not, what about it?
- Are there some schedule and plans to do after the upcoming release gets released?
- Any plans about migrating to GitHub?
* These days people don't care at all about Bazaar,  it's a dead end. But Git is very popular and even used in KiCad for libraries

Maybe those questions got already answered, but I would like to be sure of it and I think it can be useful information to be summarized and officially confirmed.

I find we the users are a bit blind about the KiCad project.

I believe publishing something like a summary of these question on major electronics sites would be very interesting too, so more people can get informed about KiCad status. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kind regards.

[Bassman59]

Hello.

I'm really excited too see the next stable, this is a very much needed release.

I have some concerns that would be amazing if KiCad Team replies about it:

Why not read through the archive of the developer mail list (https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers)? When they're sure that what they have is stable, they're going to push out the release candidate.

I think the last thing they want to do is to push out a "stable" release and have it crap out.

[timofonic]

Hello.

I'm really excited too see the next stable, this is a very much needed release.

I have some concerns that would be amazing if KiCad Team replies about it:

Why not read through the archive of the developer mail list (https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers)? When they're sure that what they have is stable, they're going to push out the release candidate.

I think the last thing they want to do is to push out a "stable" release and have it crap out.

Hello.

That's the issue! I need to dig KiCad information all time, instead reading something like "current status digest". I already follow too many mailing lists and I often miss to read too much messages, it's extremely time consuming.

But a weeky, bi-weekly digest or putting small news in a blog-like area and submit it to kicad-users would be amazing.

I already wrote this message on KiCad Users Mailing List but no developer replied. So I wrote it here too and expanded it a bit. These days I find EEvBlog more comfortable to use.

And please don't talk me about the monstrosity of Kicad.info. I think that forum must win the Guinness' world book of records awards to worst forum ever. It's totally unusable!!!!

I'm sorry if I'm annoying in some way, I'm desesperately curious about KiCad. Please say me if there's something wrong in my attitude.

Kind regards.

[Warhawk]

Dear Circuiteromalaguito,
you are not the only one person who would probably use (and donate maybe ?) it if KiCad were more user friendly to EE community.
At the moment it is nearly impossible to start using KiCad without spending some serious time on the web, essentially finding most actual information and filter out what is obsolete. I think that a majority of EE engineers, which EDA software should be for, lack a precious free time which they would waste on forums to find elementary information. I rather spend my hobby hours working on a PCB in Eagle (DipTrace , MS paint, pencil and paper....) then investing any time to KiCad and its quirks. I will change my mind when KiCad developers finally realize how average EE engineer (PCB layouter) looks like.
I am afraid that KiCad completely misses the target user and strategy. For me it seems to be a hobby project for a group of programmers and insiders which have never experienced (and worked!) with professional EDA. Or at least they behave like that.
I share your disgruntlement which won't help you, however.
Anyway I cross my fingers for KiCad and hope for the times when they are not Altium in their own way.

[timofonic]

Hello.

I have hopes they'll learn to fix these issues, maybe I'm becoming an ingenious optimist.

I didn't like the "RTA" (Read The Archives!, somewhat similar to RTFM but more nonsense in my opinion) attitude and the somewhat elitist attitude, it reminds me of gEDA too.

Here's the mailing list thread:
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cad.kicad.user/19609

I'm just an electronics student at a vocational school, I want to be an EE someday. But I have ADHD, 30yo and backed from studies after many years of inactivity. I choose this starting path because it's already too hard for me to follow and I want to get a job sooner and continue my studies later.

It's not just the lack of up to date documentation that keeps me away from KiCad, but the attitude to the non-developer community (the KiCad (l)users). I don't understand why I must read tons of mailing list messages to get information that can be summarized in a website section and a blog or news section.

Kind regards.

[nikomo]

I'm a user that hangs around on #kicad on Freenode.
There's no information on next stable release, because developers themselves don't know when it's happening.
KiCad is a software project, not the news, not having new news is not news, so there hasn't been any big messages anywhere because of that.

They've started the feature freeze, as listed on the website: http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/DEV/KiCad+Development
It also links to the page that shows what bugs need fixing before an RC could even take place.

People involved in the project are available on the IRC channel, I've been bugging them whenever I haven't understood something, haven't had problems getting used to the software, as someone who started out with Proteus because the school uses it.

[con-f-use]

It took me a weekend to migrate from Eagle to KiCad. After you watched Chris Gammel's Getting to Blinky, there is not much more you need. I agree that information should be more readily available, but it's not as big a deal as you guys make it out to be. KiCad has become decent software and is on par with Eagle. It's a bit less polished but it's free and has a richer feature set. You're just whining.

[timofonic]

It took me a weekend to migrate from Eagle to KiCad. After you watched Chris Gammel's Getting to Blinky, there is not much more you need. I agree that information should be more readily available, but it's not as big a deal as you guys make it out to be. KiCad has become decent software and is on par with Eagle. It's a bit less polished but it's free and has a richer feature set. You're just whining.

You must be so smart, because I tried a few times and failed miserably. I started with Eagle and want to switch to a better software. Maybe I'm too dumb, but I'll try it again anyway.

Less polished than Eagle? Eagle already drives me crazy, it sucks in many ways and ruin my beginner PCB designs so many times (I can't make pads bigger without making ratsnest go crazy, for example). Maybe my tolerance threshold is lower than yours.

I find KiCad very counterintuitive in many ways. One of them is moving objects and wires not following them. What's the reason behind it?

There's no definitive repository of scripts like in Eagle's ULP, that's one thing CadSoft did good and users (not CadSoft, they really don't fix many issues their users complain since years ago, despite is a paid product) are really the only ones that are keeping Eagle alive (Bob Starr addons make Eagle a lot more usable, for example). There's Python, but some people complain about certain limitations and others would prefer other scripting languages. Eagle developers chosen a custom set of scripting languages designed for the application itself, but not sure if that approach might be reliable for FOSS too.

[con-f-use]

I didn't mean to be condescending. I really like KiCad over Eagle now, and after a transition period, I'm convinced, you could come to terms with it if you can with Eagle. As I said, what helped me most is a, get the latest bleeding release and watch Chris Gammel's Videos.

I find KiCad very counterintuitive in many ways. One of them is moving objects and wires not following them. What's the reason behind it?

That is sometimes useful, when you want to switch out components and the like. If you press G in eeschema or D in PCBnew, you can drag stuff as usual. KiCad is all about keyboard shortcuts (press ? to get a list). I'm split on whether G/D-type dragging or normal moving should be the default. I remember getting irritated at the drag-type movement with Eagle, when I started out.

What really annoys me is, that if you move or drag a component, you can't rotate it with a right click. Also when you associate components with footprints, there should really be a better filter/search option.

Python is a good choice as scripting language, after all it is the most used one, and many people know it. They added git-support for libraries, which is good step but they should inform people on how to make libraries for use with that feature.

[timofonic]

I didn't mean to be condescending. I really like KiCad over Eagle now, and after a transition period, I'm convinced, you could come to terms with it if you can with Eagle. As I said, what helped me most is a, get the latest bleeding release and watch .

Okay, I'll try again. Thanks for your suggestion!

I find KiCad very counterintuitive in many ways. One of them is moving objects and wires not following them. What's the reason behind it?

That is sometimes useful, when you want to switch out components and the like. If you press G in eeschema or D in PCBnew, you can drag stuff as usual. KiCad is all about keyboard shortcuts (press ? to get a list). What really annoys me is, that if you move or drag a component, you can't rotat it with a right click.
[/quote]

Why are shortcuts different in Eeschema and PCBnew?

Rotating is pretty annoying too! That thing drives me really crazy!

[Wilksey]

Sounds like you need a different package than Eagle or KiCAD, have you tried DipTrace?

Eagle does exactly what it says on the tin, the way it goes about doing it is irrelevant in my opinion, you want to use it, take the time to learn how to, the more you use it the better, i've never had it "mess up" any of my designs, i am more than capable of doing that myself in any given package, it's not the packages fault you don't know how to use it!

KiCAD is a very straight forward transition, even if you haven't see Chris Gammels' tutorial series, if you know how to use a PCB package, the rest is just learning how this particular package does it specifically.

Both are good pieces of software, and I can use both fluently, some people can't / don't want to get on with either of them, but there are plenty of options available for those who dont, Circuit Maker, DipTrace as already mentioned, RS Design Spark, Mouser MultiSim Blue, most have "professional" counterparts which you can upgrade to if you feel the need, MultiSim Blue for example is NI MultiSim (used to be Electronics Workbench), RS Design Spark is Easy PC from Number One Systems / WestDev essentially.

Be sure to check the license for these packages regarding commercial work as some do not allow you to sell your PCBs designed with them at the free license level (Eagle for example).

[timofonic]

Sounds like you need a different package than Eagle or KiCAD, have you tried DipTrace?

Eagle does exactly what it says on the tin, the way it goes about doing it is irrelevant in my opinion, you want to use it, take the time to learn how to, the more you use it the better, i've never had it "mess up" any of my designs, i am more than capable of doing that myself in any given package, it's not the packages fault you don't know how to use it!

KiCAD is a very straight forward transition, even if you haven't see Chris Gammels' tutorial series, if you know how to use a PCB package, the rest is just learning how this particular package does it specifically.

Both are good pieces of software, and I can use both fluently, some people can't / don't want to get on with either of them, but there are plenty of options available for those who dont, Circuit Maker, DipTrace as already mentioned, RS Design Spark, Mouser MultiSim Blue, most have "professional" counterparts which you can upgrade to if you feel the need, MultiSim Blue for example is NI MultiSim (used to be Electronics Workbench), RS Design Spark is Easy PC from Number One Systems / WestDev essentially.

Be sure to check the license for these packages regarding commercial work as some do not allow you to sell your PCBs designed with them at the free license level (Eagle for example).

I tried DipTrace and is more usable in many ways, but I see their developers are struggling at developing their software despite it's a paid product. They are relatively recent (2003?) but they are very condescent to their users about bugs and feature requests. Why should I pay for a software with so little support? And it has the worst library manager of all EDA software I tried ever.

These cheap packages are a trap, because are attached to electronics distributors or live in the cloud hell.

I'm still a student, licenses aren't an issue right now. I would like to do some freelance work ASAP, but I must be realistic about my skills.

[con-f-use]

Eagle does exactly what it says on the tin, the way it goes about doing it is irrelevant in my opinion, you want to use it, take the time to learn how to, the more you use it the better, i've never had it "mess up" any of my designs, i am more than capable of doing that myself in any given package, it's not the packages fault you don't know how to use it!

So you are saying, it doesn't matter if you need 100 million or one click to do a simple thing, the user just needs to get faster? Usability and intuiveness are BIG requirements for any Software. Professionals want to spend as little time possible when learning and using software because time is valuable. Getting the job done might be the most important requirement, but right after are the other two.

These cheap packages are a trap, because are attached to electronics distributors or live in the cloud hell

Opinionated and generalized as you statement is, I like the "cloud hell".

[timofonic]

These cheap packages are a trap, because are attached to electronics distributors or live in the cloud hell

Opinionated and generalized as you statement is, I like the "cloud hell".

Welcome to your almighty data overlords.

Isn't FOSS philosophy contrary to proprietary cloud software?

Anyway, this is offtopic and it could be discussed in a separate thread.

I don't understand why Eeschema and PCBnew have different shortcuts for the same tasks. Could someone give some reason behind it, please? These quirks annoy and amaze me at same time.

[Wilksey]

So you are saying, it doesn't matter if you need 100 million or one click to do a simple thing, the user just needs to get faster? Usability and intuiveness are BIG requirements for any Software. Professionals want to spend as little time possible when learning and using software because time is valuable. Getting the job done might be the most important requirement, but right after are the other two.

Not at all,
What I am saying is, if you have spent the time to learn a package, a few extra clicks of the mouse might not necessarily make that much difference, I only learn new software when I have to, I learned to use Eagle for hobbyist use, and now I use it in work commercially as well as Altium Designer.

I started to use KiCAD as an alternative to Eagle for home use as it doesn't have the license restriction.

Be under no illusion, Altium can be a royal pain in the rear end to use at times!!

[Thor-Arne]

I don't understand why Eeschema and PCBnew have different shortcuts for the same tasks. Could someone give some reason behind it, please? These quirks annoy and amaze me at same time.

The differences in hotkeys probably happened because Eeschema and PCBnew has been worked on by different development teams.

The issue has been discussed, and will be dealt with in due time.
You can always redefine the keys to your liking if it is such a bother.

[c4757p]

I don't understand why Eeschema and PCBnew have different shortcuts for the same tasks. Could someone give some reason behind it, please? These quirks annoy and amaze me at same time.

Bit of a snippet from a mailing list discussion, from the head honcho himself:

>
> Myself, I'd vote to unify the hotkeys - but not arbitrarily, it's
> something that should probably be done all at once so we're not making a
> thousand annoying changes all spread out. Perhaps a more unified set of
> commands could be a target for the next stable after the upcoming one?

This should have been done a long time ago.  I'm in favor of doing this
after the stable release.

It is Historical, and shall be fixed soon enough.

[kingofkya]

If you use the openGL mode in the editor a lot of the keys seam to match what you would expect, from other cad software. So it is getting there i think.

So there defiantly getting there, They have made some serious progress on the foot print library there still a few issues but its way better that some of the old windows binary they used to have on the site.

I have done a few quick boards on the daily snapshot releases they seams to be fairly stable. There are still a few issues i have noticed when opening the 3d viewer other that i haven't really seen any major issues. And the push and shove routing is really nice.


Its really easy to be a tester download a build:)
http://www2.futureware.at/~nickoe/

[timofonic]

I don't understand why Eeschema and PCBnew have different shortcuts for the same tasks. Could someone give some reason behind it, please? These quirks annoy and amaze me at same time.

The differences in hotkeys probably happened because Eeschema and PCBnew has been worked on by different development teams.

The issue has been discussed, and will be dealt with in due time.
You can always redefine the keys to your liking if it is such a bother.

It makes a lot of sense! Thanks a lot for the clarification! I found some information in the history of KiCad (this FOSDEM 2015 video which I miss subtitles for it, an article in july/august 2007 Elektor issue I'm yet trying to buy). Do you know any other references about the history of KiCad?

These kind of inconsistencies bothers me a lot, so I'll redefine it if I manage to adapt to KiCad.


Even if disliking kicad.info forums, I'm managing to read them. I found a message related to my original message:

https://forum.kicad.info/t/any-news-on-the-official-kicad-stable-build/1045/10


And found other interesting forum thread too:
https://forum.kicad.info/t/kicad-donations-to-cern/1055/11

[Thor-Arne]

I don't know much about the history of KiCad, I stumbled onto it while searching for a free tool to use.

I've read the Elektor article, not much relevant information there since KiCad has evolved a lot since then.

[timofonic]

I don't know much about the history of KiCad, I stumbled onto it while searching for a free tool to use.

I've read the Elektor article, not much relevant information there since KiCad has evolved a lot since then.

But does it tell how KiCad started and the initial motivations behind it?

It would be amazing to have a professionally made historical-technical essay about KiCad from origins to actuality, but this might be an insane pipe dream. This could provide KiCad evolve more importance and maybe more relevant, parts of it could be summarized in the future KiCad website.

Call me mad, but I'm obsessed with the history of technology

[Thor-Arne]

From the Elektor article: "It was developed by a professor/researcher, Jean-Pierre Charras, from Joseph Fourier University in Grenoble, France, in order to learn programming in C++, as he claims. The first rough drafts were begun in 1992 in DOS."

You could try to compile a historical essay about KiCad, all the information should be on Internet somewhere.

[timofonic]

From the Elektor article: "It was developed by a professor/researcher, Jean-Pierre Charras, from Joseph Fourier University in Grenoble, France, in order to learn programming in C++, as he claims. The first rough drafts were begun in 1992 in DOS."

You could try to compile a historical essay about KiCad, all the information should be on Internet somewhere.

I'll try to propose it as homework in some subject in my future vocational school, writing it in both English and Spanish. Meanwhile, I'll try to collect some information. Thanks!

[Bassman59]

I don't understand why Eeschema and PCBnew have different shortcuts for the same tasks. Could someone give some reason behind it, please? These quirks annoy and amaze me at same time.

Bit of a snippet from a mailing list discussion, from the head honcho himself:

Our friend has repeatedly said that it's too difficult for him to monitor or search the developer mailing list. 

[c4757p]

Yes, so I did it for him

[timofonic]

Yes, so I did it for him

Hey, I finally registered to the developers' mailing list. I'll be polite and constructive this time. I promise!

I did mean it's time consuming to find relevant information in mailing list archives unless you are very used to it. And these days I'm not so used to that!

I understand the current project status, but I believe these days KiCad usage is still more suited for hardcore geeks than average EE or student/hobbyist. Don't get me wrong, but (still) not everyone into electronics is skilled at computing usage and being an advanced user to manage some situations.

But that might change after the next stable version that is coming soon. Are you people going to release often? I hope so!

Anyway, thanks for your replies and being so friendly!

[c4757p]

I did mean it's time consuming to find relevant information in mailing list archives unless you are very used to it. And these days I'm not so used to that!

Yeah, it can be.

I understand the current project status, but I believe these days KiCad usage is still more suited for hardcore geeks than average EE or student/hobbyist. Don't get me wrong, but (still) not everyone into electronics is skilled at computing usage and being an advanced user to manage some situations.

No contest there. KiCad needs serious UX work... pains me a bit to say it, but yeah, it takes someone who is comfortable with his computer. I and the CERN guys are pushing for some UX fixes, but with the release so soon they'll have to come after.

Are you people going to release often? I hope so!

Me too! It's a shame the last stable is so old. I'd like us to get onto a major/minor schedule as well, so that people can have minor fixes and updates without having to go all out and use a devel build.

Anyway, thanks for your replies and being so friendly!

Me? Friendly?

[timofonic]

I understand the current project status, but I believe these days KiCad usage is still more suited for hardcore geeks than average EE or student/hobbyist. Don't get me wrong, but (still) not everyone into electronics is skilled at computing usage and being an advanced user to manage some situations.

No contest there. KiCad needs serious UX work... pains me a bit to say it, but yeah, it takes someone who is comfortable with his computer. I and the CERN guys are pushing for some UX fixes, but with the release so soon they'll have to come after.

I agree.

Are there plans to do an usability analysis with surveys and advanced feedback from all kind of users? I did read about some plans of an usability report in a general project analysis.

Are you people going to release often? I hope so!

Me too! It's a shame the last stable is so old. I'd like us to get onto a major/minor schedule as well, so that people can have minor fixes and updates without having to go all out and use a devel build.

Would 2-3 month stable x.x release be possible? And frequent bugfix release when these are found and fixed?

"Release early, release often" - Linus Torvalds.

Anyway, thanks for your replies and being so friendly!

Me? Friendly?

You and others were quite patient with me