CERN's contribution to KiCAD

[djsb]

Just thought I'd share this link to information on CERN's contribution to the development of KiCAD

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki

Not much there yet but but there a BIG plans (subject to donations-Page for donations to be added later)

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages

I hope it is of some interest.

David.

[rolycat]

Very ambitious - it looks as though this might eventually provide a really credible (and free!) alternative to the likes of Altium.

I'm particularly fond of this work package objective:

• Study ergonomics of various commercial/proprietary PCB applications (when in doubt about any particular UI solution, check how it has been done in a certain proprietary app that is very popular among OSHW folks and do exactly opposite).

[BravoV]

 

[andersm]

Something's finally happening? That's great! The project went so long without any visible activity I assumed it was abandoned before even starting.

[Bloch]

Very ambitious - it looks as though this might eventually provide a really credible (and free!) alternative to the likes of Altium.

Yes this is great news. At least for the open source hardware movement.

[free_electron]

Maybe there is hope after all.
There is one element that is blocking though. They want to standardize the library on 2d.... That should be 3d... Especially if you want to i tegrate 3d models and complex stackups like blind and buried vias.....

[amspire]

I think the 2d is only referring for the geometry used by the push & shove router.

I think they plan to improve the 3d functionality as well.

[c4757p]

Oh hell yes.   

[codeboy2k]

Good that they forked it.  kicad needs to improve. The devs weren't willing.

[Bored@Work]

Good that they forked it.  kicad needs to improve. The devs weren't willing.

I don't read the announcement as an announcement of a fork. They write

do it in close collaboration with the current main Kicad developers.

And they talk about contributing.

[Smokey]

I'm all for the concept, but I wonder what their motivation is for doing this.  It's not like they can just make it a grad student thesis project or something and get free labor like a pure university sponsored project.  It seems like it would take a ton of work to get kicad up to the level of a professional EDA package.  That's time their programmers could have been using to write particle physics code (or whatever they would have been doing) as opposed to just buying a tool they can get off the shelf.  I would think that you would want coders also familiar with PCB layout so they understand what they are doing, which further limits their programmer pool to work on this.  Is there some feature they can't get from a commercial EDA?  I find that hard to believe, and even if commercial EDA packages are missing something they need, they have to build up all the other basic features they are missing from kicad in addition to the special one to make it useable.

[Bored@Work]

The basic argument is that true open hardware needs to be done with open source tools, not proprietary tools.

This leads to the question why that particular CERN section (decoded the group's name is beams/controls/hardware&timing) is into open hardware? Their official mandate https://espace.cern.ch/be-dep/CO/Hardware_Timing/default.aspx doesn't mention it. So they must have made a case that OH is benefitial to their work. This looks like how they made their case https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=190126

[ve7xen]

Perhaps they are committed to openness in academia, and aren't focusing purely on short-term results? CERN is large enough that they can probably spare a couple of developers to work on tools that will improve their ability to collaborate and share with other academics in the long run.

IMO academia is one place where using open source tools makes a lot of sense in the long run.

[codeboy2k]

I don't read the announcement as an announcement of a fork. They write

do it in close collaboration with the current main Kicad developers.

And they talk about contributing.

OK. We'll see if it turns out to be true.  Kicad's main developers are pompous. They resist change, and they have shown an unwillingness to receive contributions in the past.

I expect that the cern-kicad tree in git will progress faster, as they will want to do real designs with Kicad, and share their designs with other labs around the world, who may also contribute back to CERN and/or request CERN to add features to Kicad that they need.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I'm all for people putting in some more effort in Kicad but this sounds a bit strange.
What do the Kicad developers say about the CERN roadmap? Sounds like a fork.

If they are going to add/change a plugin architecture then it seems like a complete rewrite would be easier.

Goal: Conflict-less way of developing tools. Script-driven tools. Refactoring towards clean MVC model.

Scientists writing MVC in python sounds like a project that will never finish. I hope I am wrong.

[AlfBaz]

I don't know anything about kicad, but if its truly open source and the existing kicad developers remain obstinate, there's nothing stopping cern from forking down their own development path.

As for cern allocating resources for this, it's not inconceivable that they have a multinational funding regime and budgets to develop tools. Looks like somebody in cern thinks this would be a good thing

[Bored@Work]

OK. We'll see if it turns out to be true.  Kicad's main developers are pompous. They resist change, and they have shown an unwillingness to receive contributions in the past.

Yes. From some previous interaction I know they don't even get what the problems are. But maybe a big name like CERN helps to kind of kick in a few doors.

Until now it looks as if the kicad developers will accept CERN code.

[Bloch]

Open letter fron kicad mailing list

[Kicad-developers] Introducing CERN BE-CO-HT
Javier Serrano Thu, 11 Apr 2013 06:22:11 -0700
Dear all, As you know, the BE-CO-HT section at CERN has been contributing to Kicad for some time now. We see this involvement as a key part of our activities regarding Open Source Hardware [1]. We are also contributing to the adoption of VHDL and SystemVerilog in the Icarus Verilog simulator, so as to enable cross-language simulation. Other related activities include the operation on the Open Hardware Repository [2] and the development of the CERN Open Hardware Licence [3].
Regarding our contribution to Kicad, it took us some time to put our act together, but I believe we are now ready to announce that development has started in earnest. We have come up with a preliminary roadmap [4], which has been discussed with the main Kicad developers [5]. We have agreed that this strategy is at least a good enough base to start development work.
The main actors involved on our side will be:
- Maciej Sumi?ski, aka "Orson". He is going to be with us for a year within CERN's Technical Student Programme, working full time on Kicad. He started in March. He has already started working on a new View component for Kicad as you saw yesterday. - Tomasz W?ostowski, aka "Tom" or "Tomek", Orson's supervisor. Tom works on hardware design most of the time, but is also developing a Push & Shove router for Kicad.
We are very excited about the opportunity to contribute to Kicad, and I would like to thank all Kicad developers (in particular the main developers: Jean-Pierre, Dick and Wayne) for bringing Kicad up to a level of quality and features where we would judge it worthwhile to invest in. We very much look forward to collaborating with you all.
In addition to the manpower I described, we have a small budget we sometimes use to get work done through companies. If browsing Kicad code you see files with a CERN copyright statement and an author either from among the main Kicad developers or another company (only Igalia [6] so far), that's the way that code was contributed. We believe one way of making Kicad sustainable and reliable for professional use is to have companies sell support contracts for Kicad, and companies which contribute code to Kicad will of course be ideally placed to sell such contracts. This should sound familiar to people who know how many of the major Linux distributions work from a financial point of view. There are probably other ways to reach these goals, and I am very interested in this topic, so please don't hesitate to contribute ideas in this domain.
Our budget for Kicad development is as I said very modest. If you think what we are doing is useful and you would like to help us work better and faster, please consider donating. CERN's Knowledge Transfer Group has set up a donations page [7], as part of a global fund-raising effort for projects which present an interest to society, even if they are not in the core mandate of CERN (Particle Physics research). There is also a link to the donations page from the CERN Kicad wiki [4]. I would also like to ask you to forward this link to whoever you think might be interested. The donations page is in a very primitive state right now. It does not allow payment through Paypal, credit cards or other methods yet. You are requested to send a message to cern.and.soci...@cern.ch and then you get bank account details which allow you to make a money transfer. This is a bit inconvenient but I can tell you any contribution at this point in time will be very useful to go faster through the roadmap. Thanks in advance for your help. We are really looking forward to working with all of you. Cheers, Javier
[1] https://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=190126
[2] http://www.ohwr.org/
[3] http://www.ohwr.org/cernohl
[4] http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki
[5] Referred to as "Main Authors" in file AUTHORS.txt of the Kicad sources.
[6] http://www.igalia.com/
[7] http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-development

[ve7xen]

Great news!

[elgonzo]

Great news!

Positive, sir! 

[Bored@Work]

Now that the cat is out of the bag we have a realistic view:

CERN has one student who'll work on it for one year. Oh dear, what KiCad needs is professionals with experience, not yet more student hacks.

Further, the student's supervisor, a hardware guy, is hacking a router for it on the side. Well, a hardware guy who wants to do some software. Oh dear. And now it becomes clear why their roadmap contains such rubbish like a Python interface.

For everything else they need to find funding.

To sum it up, hardly the breakthrough that can turn KiCad around.

[marshallh]

Gonna take more than 2 programmers with spare time to fix the trainwreck of Kicad... No way I'd touch it

[firewalker]

Is it so badly "coded"?

Alexander.

[c4757p]

Is it so badly "coded"?

Alexander.

Yes, including the well-deserved quotation marks around "coded". By "programmers".

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Gonna take more than 2 programmers with spare time to fix the trainwreck of Kicad... No way I'd touch it

I use Kicad quite happily, it is not a train wreck.

Speaking of train wrecks, last night I opened up a project in  Altium reader, I was missing some if not most of the library files required. What I got was 15 or so Altium reader processes each with about 30 modal dialogues saying missing library files. 
How annoying. I was tempted to take a screen shot, now I wish I had of.
I couldn't close it without process explorer and a lot of button pressing.

At least that sort of stuff doesn't happen with Kicad.

[c4757p]

The code is a train wreck, though. Have you seen it? It's incredible that it works as well as it does. Every single problem that I've had with it that I've bothered to track down has been due to some ridiculously elementary programming mistake that should only be made by some of the more challenged students in CS II... 

[c4757p]

Example: It recently decided to have a problem with symbols in net names, because some bozo had it dumping the names straight into an ASCII format file without any escaping or encoding whatsoever. FFS, who does that?? No decent programmer would even consider doing something like that.

The fix that they committed when I reported this to them still does not escape the output, it just slaps a bodge on the input parser and calls it finished, even though I explained the problem. Dumbasses. After updating to the fixed version, I was still able to (granted, on purpose) create a net name that would screw up the file.

Rule #1 of accepting and sanitizing input from the user: Assume the user is a mentally challenged chimpanzee who has taken to randomly banging on the keyboard.

[perfect_disturbance]

Why didn't you fix it and submit a patch.

[c4757p]

More work than I could be bothered to do. They're a lot more familiar with the serialization library they're using to output the file than I am. I'm not going to take a couple hours to get acquainted with the code for a fix that should take someone who already knows it half an hour to implement.

[perfect_disturbance]

As open source software the developers are us. Anything wrong with it is our fault. And if we don't take the time to fix it we have nobody to complain to but ourselves.

Well except me I use eagle .

[marshallh]

I can hear the cries of "BUT ITS OPEN SOURCE AND FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" already

[c4757p]

As open source software the developers are us. Anything wrong with it is our fault. And if we don't take the time to fix it we have nobody to complain to but ourselves.

Well except me I use eagle .

If the developers of Eagle suddenly decided to release the source tomorrow, that wouldn't shift the blame for the shittiness of the code (come on, it's freaking Eagle...) on the users. I am most certainly not a developer of KiCad, I was doing them a favor by even taking the time to sift through their poor excuse for code and help them by pointing out what was wrong. If they'd like only users who want to take the time to write code for them to use their software, I'll happily oblige. I don't think they'll have many users left, though.

[perfect_disturbance]

I was just trying to make a comment about open source software. People like to complain that "the developers" are doing a crappy job. But the developers are the users. People who thought the software was good enough to contribute their time to it.

For free software the adage holds, you get what you pay for. In open source what you spend is your time. And if your not willing to spend much time you don't get very good software. But why complain it was cheap.

[c4757p]

I was just trying to make a comment about open source software. People like to complain that "the developers" are doing a crappy job. But the developers are the users. People who thought the software was good enough to contribute their time to it.

Good point in general, though KiCad seems to be mostly developed by a small group. The majority of outside code seems to be in the form of bug fixes.

But why complain it was cheap.

That is true. I was insulting the living hell out of their code, but it's still my favorite EDA package, and it's free on top of that. I'm just more than a bit annoyed that I did figure out exactly what the problem was, and they ignored that and implemented a shoddy bodge instead...

[amspire]

I was just trying to make a comment about open source software. People like to complain that "the developers" are doing a crappy job. But the developers are the users. People who thought the software was good enough to contribute their time to it.

You do make a good point. If there is something you really don't like about KiCad and you are a programmer, you can always get in contact with the developers  and volunteer to improve that part. It may be it takes some effort to get trusted as no matter how brilliant you think you are, you have to fit in with the way the rest of the project code is developed. KiCad has been hurt in the past by battles between developers with different views on how code should be developed. It unfortunately usually takes more time learning the project conventions (good or bad) then it does writing some new or improved code. Ensuring your new code does not break any previous project files often has to take priority over improving the code.

The way the good open source programs often become really good programs is that at first the project has to exist and function. And then if they attract a partner like a company who offers help to make the program commercially useable, that can give the financial basis for quality development of the code to a schedule.

Anyone can sit down and find flaws in KiCad, but if you look at what it can do, rather then what it isn't, it can do a lot. It can do up to 16 layer board with no node limit so it can make boards that the free Eagle or Diptrace or whatever cannot make. Parts of the workflow may be inefficient compared to other packages, but you can get a result. You can design professional quality boards with it.

I had a quick look at the CERN project and it was a bit odd that they seemed to have their own repository for the mods they were working on. I am just not sure how this will work. They have apparently been talking with the KiCad developers for a couple of years, but I have no idea what those discussions involved.  I did get the impression that their main goal was to add a new router. Unless the code is merged into the mainstream project, it will at best result in a short lived fork that may only suit some specific problem that CERN wants to solve.

Richard

[Bored@Work]

Yes, in theory you can get in contact with them and fix their code.

In theory. I tried. They don't listen, they are not approachable. And regarding their code, it is horrible.

Now, you can have one of those, not being approachable or having horririble code, but both at once is a disaster. If your code is great you don't need to listen, but if your code is bad and you don't listen then you will forever wade in your own feces.

I know at least one open source project where they managed to turn their attitude around. I was hoping CERN's big name would manage to initiate this for KiCad. The project I think about is Libre Office.

When Libre Office forked from Open Office the first thing they did announce was a huge code cleanup event of the rotten OOo code they forked. How did they do this? They did let the experienced programmers they did lure away from OOe define small, tiny work packages (and some more difficult ones, too). Defined so new programmer not familiar with the 20 year history of the code could do them. And because they were defined by the LO project the people who took up the tasks knew their contribution was welcome,and they wouldn't in the end have to beg the project to have a look at their contributions.

Tasks for graps were as simple as "We have this file where there are five unused functions. Remove them and commit". They still continue with this, https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks#Entry_level_Hacks

They welcome new programmers to the project and give them meaningful tasks. Unlike KiCad, where they don't seem to recognise they have issues with their code base and their talent, and not every potential contributor is a tenured professor or from CERN, who has to much time on his hand.

And they have apparently not recognized in KiCad that programming is for professionals, and user interface design is for other professionals, and both is not something academics can do well on the fly.

[amspire]

Didn't know that about Libre Office, but I had a look and they have some great ideas.

I particularly liked the idea of entry level volunteers verifying that bugs have been fixed in the latest daily release. That means at minimum, a second set of eyes checking every fix.

I have never dealt directly with the KiCad developers but I guess it is human nature to feel possessive of a project after you have put a number of years work into it. Perhaps there will be a time when the project does have to be forked - like OpenOffice/Libre Office - so that a major refactoring can take place.

You didn't tell the KiCad programmers that their code was horrible, I hope?

I would be amazed if they didn't want someone who was volunteering to help developing some aspect of the code. It is not as if the developers seem to have time to do that much themselves. Things like debug the prototype scripting language, debug the nanometer resolution code, if it hasn't been tested much. Develop test code, so that a test suite could be run on every new build (would be easier if the scripting feature was enabled and functional). Documentation - particularly documentation of the code. Code to allow pin swapping in the PCB editor with back annotation to the schematic would be a nice addition.

There is a heap of volunteer work that could probably be done on libraries. I remember seeing that they had this concept called SWEET to unify the libraries - don't know how that is going.

Not sure how you approached them, but it is common not to allow a new programmer to work on the core of the program until they see the programmers work. It could be though that they just do not want to open up the core design group to new people - perhaps they like their little kingdom and are happy with glacial progress.

[codeboy2k]

...  so new programmer not familiar with the 20 year history of the code could do them.

speaking of which... I worked for Sun in the 90's... I remember we were using StarOffice long before Sun decided to buy the company and open-source it. I left in early 1998 and I think they bought the company soon after that.

[djsb]

I'll send an email with a link to this topic to the launchpad developer mailing list. Maybe someone (a developer?) could give us some feedback on the comments here.

David.

[firewalker]

I'll send an email with a link to this topic to the launchpad mailing list. Maybe someone a developer would give some feedback on the comments here.

David.

Nice thought. 

Alexander.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

An Altium reader problem that had occurred previously, happened again tonight.
Here are a couple of screenshots.
I opened up a workspace file once, and some lib paths must be wrong or don't exist.

On the error dialogue I click Ok and it spawns a new process?, each time I click OK???
If I click the red cross in the top right hand corner the dialogue disappears.
If I kill all Altium processes except one, and then if I click the red cross in the top right hand corner 30 times, once for each error, I can finally use Altium reader.

I call that a train wreck.

[free_electron]

I was just trying to make a comment about open source software. People like to complain that "the developers" are doing a crappy job. But the developers are the users. People who thought the software was good enough to contribute their time to it.

So in your universe , if you don't know how to write code you can't use open source.. Well thats handy dandy then... Elitist !

I don't want to make screwdrivers. I just use them to put screws in something. So far the free screwdrivers have only proven to be pure junk... I'll stick to the pricey , proven ones.

[MacAttak]

The protectionist "not invented here" attitude is what needs to change. Code quality will improve naturally on its own after that.

As a contributor to several OSS projects (some with significantly larger user population than KiCad), I can say that the thing that affects OSS quality above all else is being open to contributions from new volunteers. If you are dismissive and arrogant, those new volunteers will be discouraged and will find someplace else to spend their time. And that's bad because OSS is always in need of fresh new ideas and energy.

I have also found that in general, an OSS project with code that is approachable and easy to understand is a very strong positive indicator that the team will be accepting of new contributions. In other words, this is a positive feedback loop.

[elgonzo]

The protectionist "not invented here" attitude is what needs to change. Code quality will improve naturally on its own after that.

As a contributor to several OSS projects (some with significantly larger user population than KiCad), I can say that the thing that affects OSS quality above all else is being open to contributions from new volunteers. If you are dismissive and arrogant, those new volunteers will be discouraged and will find someplace else to spend their time. And that's bad because OSS is always in need of fresh new ideas and energy.

I have also found that in general, an OSS project with code that is approachable and easy to understand is a very strong positive indicator that the team will be accepting of new contributions. In other words, this is a positive feedback loop.

Sorry, my reply is a bit late...
It is a common misconception that being open to contributions is good for OSS quality. As Bored@Work mentioned above, well defined and feasible work packages are what makes the development of a software project successful, no matter if it is OSS or proprietary commercial software. Unless you have good and stable extension/plug-in mechanism with equally good and stable API, the quality of your project will not improve when random contributions are thrown at it.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Or even if you have good and stable extension/plug-in mechanism with equally good and stable API, the quality of your project will not improve when random contributions are thrown at it.

[elgonzo]

Or even if you have good and stable extension/plug-in mechanism with equally good and stable API, the quality of your project will not improve when random contributions are thrown at it.

I politely disagree with you

Extension mechanisms (add-ons, plug-ins, scripting, etc...) can provide an environment which allows people to contribute without demanding much of the core developers attention or modifications in the software code base. Which is a huge benefit both for developers, contributors and users.

Contributors can realize their or user's feature requests with less interference and little coordination betwen them and the core devs. This does not only make it easy for contributors (which often act on an impulse), but makes contributions quick to realize.

If a contributed extension proves popular, it can be included in the distributable of the software (assuming that licensing and other IP concerns aren't in the way). Or, if a migration of a popular extension into the core code base is deemed favorable, the definition of required work packages is rather straightforward, being derived from the existing extension and user feedback.

[c4757p]

Yes, if you are lucky. Or, in the more common scenario, all you get is five or six half-assed turds, each one subtracting from the overall professionalism  of your project.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Yes sorry elgonzo, I was just playing with words and trying to be funny.

I think it's a fair point that you make too, though I am not sure to what extent Kicad has a stable architecture or stable extension mechanism. In fact from memory they are in the process of implementing a change of design.
Hopefully Kicad can get this stage soon.

[Smokey]

Isn't Eclipse built around that plugin type framework? 

[c4757p]

Isn't Eclipse built around that plugin type framework?

Yes, if you are lucky.

Yep. They're one of the few for whom it's worked.

[elgonzo]

Isn't Eclipse built around that plugin type framework?

Yes, Eclipse is kind of a plug-in framework. It has its strength in being a toolkit for designing your own specific IDE environments. Out-of-the-box it might not be the simplest application to work with, because of all the complexity its flexibility brings. However, considering the intended user group (developers), it's not much of an issue.

Kicad is just doing its first steps with its Python scripting. But i can't tell whether it is usable or still rudimentary experimental.

Blender would be nice example for good scripting integration. Not only has a full-featured Python-API, it even allows you to load any binary library compatible with your host OS*) via Python (within Blender) and call their exported function(s) without ever needing to compile or link against Blenders header files/libraries. That's what i would call easy and powerful.

EDIT: *) ...and of course matching Blender's bitness...

[elgonzo]

Yes sorry elgonzo, I was just playing with words and trying to be funny.

I think it's a fair point that you make too, though I am not sure to what extent Kicad has a stable architecture or stable extension mechanism. In fact from memory they are in the process of implementing a change of design.
Hopefully Kicad can get this stage soon.

I don't really know how much of the actual codebase has already been cleaned up and is stable. Looking at the bug tracker on  launchpad.net, the devs seem to take bug reports especially regarding stability problems very serious - which is a positive.

Python scripting in KiCAD is existent, but i doubt that it has already a reasonable feature set and is fit for prime-time (don't start looking for a documentation; there seems to be only a rather incomplete one).

I hope CERN can provide some substantial positive impulse for KiCAD. In my opinion, what KiCAD needs right now primarily is a significant improvement in usability or feature set (or in both, desirably). If no such concrete results materialize from CERNs engagement, i worry that KiCAD will drift more into obscurity and it would become harder and harder for the devs to find motivation for working on KiCAD.

[Bored@Work]

Python scripting in KiCAD is existent, but i doubt that it has already a reasonable feature set and is fit for prime-time (don't start looking for a documentation; there seems to be only a rather incomplete one).

The thing with Python scripting in KiCad is that it come far to early (and that Python is a rubbish language, but we skip that for a moment ...).

They are doing the second or third step before the first. Scripting will not help them to clean up their horrible User Interface dialogs, an experienced User Interface designer would. It will not help them to clean up their graphic rendering engine, to fix their mouse and keyboard behavior, fix their bodged naming conventions, or to get their workflow right.

Everything that is wrong in the KiCAD core can't be fxed with scripts. At best some scripts will add some half ass patches over some of the things. At worst they will just add a pile of junk added to KiCad.  You can't script a turd.

In the old day there was this law on software development "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail.". These days it seems on has to replace "can read mail" with "supports Python scripting". The result is the same, a rather useless feature, especially when there are still fundamental issues.

(don't start looking for a documentation; there seems to be only a rather incomplete one).

Now why am I not surprised? If the KiCad developers hate one thing, then it is writing documentation.

[firewalker]

Python might be many things, but rubbish isn't one.

Alexander.

[Bored@Work]

Python might be many things, but rubbish isn't one.

Alexander.

The language design is brain-dead. It is a me-too language, which wasn't and isn't needed and doesn't satisfy any real-world need, except the fanboys wanking about it and bolting it uselessly to everything they can get their sticky hands on. And the worst, having spent a lot of time debugging internal Python libraries, like platform.py, I have first hand experience of the suckage of the internal code. Pure rubbish. If that is the best the masters of Python can do, well, they haven't even the slightest clue what they are doing.

[amspire]

Just had a quick look at the status of Python in KiCad. If you enable the scripting in the KiCad buid, it looks like pcbnew in Windows has python available, and in linux, there is python + wxpython so you can get an editing environment inside pcbnew.  The holdup for the Windows PCBnew is that wxpython apparently is not compatible with Mingw that is used to build most Windows KiCad and they are working on a way to get the existing Windows wxpython builds to work with the Mingw KiCad.

The current standard builds of KiCad do not have the scripting enabled by default, and the button on pcbnew for running scripts is missing in these builds. The current python library seems to have enough commands for things like footprint building scripts, but this needs to be enhanced. Things like file IO functions and Action Plugins (like call back triggers for things like "Right Click on a Component") still have to be added.

It looks like Eeschema will not get scripting just yet as planned changes mean that it does not make sense to add scripting to the current version at this stage.

[amspire]

I saw that Cern is setting up a donation-based fund raising scheme on the Cern website to help push along the work along. They are also encouraging companies to get involved in submitting code on the basis that they could offer commercial support for KiCad for organizations that want to use KiCad. The more companies start using KiCad, the more the pressure to turn KiCad into a complete solid package I guess.

Current fund raising targets  are 150,000 euros to "Make Kicad usable for very complex Printed Circuit Board designs with acceptable productivity" and 300,000 Euros to "Bring Kicad in line with the best proprietary tools, and outclass them in some respects". It may sound a lot of money, but I think Cern are thinking along the lines donations from corporations and institutions who would be prepared to donate a big sum to be able to start using free KiCad internally instead of expensive and closed commercial packages with expensive annual subscription or support fees.

There definitely does seem to be some very positive cooperation between the KiCad developers and the Cern developers which is very good to see. Things like the new GAL (Graphics Abstraction Layer) that seems to be very much a joint effort between the KiCad developers and Cern. The GAL will solve a lot of problems, including allowing the development of a push and shove router which seems to be a big aim of Cern. The Gal Specification PDF link in the following post is interesting:

https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg09872.html

It can be tested in a development build of KiCad compiled under Linux. Windows will come.

Some good might really come from this.

Richard.

[elgonzo]

The thing with Python scripting in KiCad is that it come far to early (and that Python is a rubbish language, but e skip that for a moment ...).

Yep, the lack or inability of properly defining workpackages (we have talked about that before). It sometimes seems they are doing a little here, a little there and chasing pet projects.

As a scripting language, Python is not bad. It is extremely well documented. Also, it makes it very easy for you as developer to integrate it into your application, no matter whether your target is Linux, Windows, or MacOS in whatever bitness. Well, if you consider that rubbish, i would really like to know your recommendation for a scripting language to be used in an application...

Everything that is wrong in the KiCAD core can't be fxed with scripts. At best some scripts will add some half ass patches over some of the things. At worst they will just add a pile of junk added to KiCad.  You can't script a turd.

I agree with the first part; it should be common sense.
The second part, well, it's an assumption. But honestly and frankly, one i sometimes tend to share. (Not bitching about the devs or trying to lecture them, but it is not hard to understand that if there is no roadmap, hardly there will be any evolvement.)

In the old day there was this law on software development "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail.". These days it seems on has to replace "can read mail" with "supports Python scripting". The result is the same, a rather useless feature, especially when there are still fundamental issues.

You seem to confuse the purpose of patch sets/hot fixes with the purpose of scripting. You might certainly have real-world examples where this confusion resulted in a mess. But you have to understand that such things happen because of a profound lack of understanding or plain ignorance, not because "that's the way it is".

Counter examples:
Blender, as i mentioned before. Or ULA scripts (not Python, but still scripting) in Eagle.
Basically almost any modern game engine (Seldomly, game designers define game logic and behavioral aspects in the low-level language the engine is written with. No, almost exclusively they use scripting environments).
Visual studio extensions (not necessarily scripting, but extensions nonetheless).
Etc, etc,...

Beware, you are moving on very thin ice with your argument

Now why am I not surprised? If the KiCad developers hate one thing, then it is writing documentation.

Stating the obvious, don't you
And granted, if they can't overcome their sloppiness regarding doc, whatever i said about extensions will vanish like magic smoke...

[elgonzo]

It looks like the discussion regarding extensions/extensibility has developed its own dynamic. Just to make clear (and risking to be too talkative): I mentioned extension mechanisms as part of a response regarding the opinion that just being open to (code) contributions from the community is sufficient to improve the quality of OSS projects.

I certainly agree with the sentiment, that KiCAD team has much more severe issues to address (of which extensibility is no part of) and should not put emphasis on their Python scripting attempt. This would be at this time distracting and just add another construction site...

[Stonent]

What's the pin count of an LHC? 

[madworm]

Upcoming P & S routing. Sorry, I don't know when.

[madworm]

Here's a comparison between the standard vs. "CERN-style" 2D rendering.

The right shows the "cairo" rendering, which is fully anti-aliased. OpenGL is also available, which looks almost the same (no AA as of now), but is much faster.

[mrflibble]

Well, if you put it like that... Left side looks like shit, right side looks decent.

[c4757p]

That left side looks significantly shittier with the text outlined. It does not look that way to me.

[madworm]

That left side looks significantly shittier with the text outlined. It does not look that way to me.

Yes, you're probably running a pretty old version.

I've compared the latest normal pcbnew version vs. the latest in the CERN branch.

[c4757p]

I am running the latest stable (rev. 4024). I don't run testing anymore after it screwed up a PCB save... but that's as recent as it comes in the stable branch.

An aside: am I the only one who really hates anti-aliased text? It all looks fuzzy and blurry to me. Looking at that preview, I feel like I've got a foggy pane of plastic over either my eyes or the monitor! I like the anti-aliased graphics, but I'll take a well designed raster screen font any day over looking like it's time to call up the optometrist...

And please tell me that not rendering the clearances and rat's nest lines is not a direction they're going in. (Obviously the rats can be turned off. Can the clearances, though? )

[madworm]

Yes, there's that. That's why one uses version control

[c4757p]

Yes, there's that. That's why one uses version control

Yep. I use it religiously with code. Never got into the habit of using it with PCB/schematic. Probably about time to start.

[madworm]

And please tell me that not rendering the clearances and rat's nest lines is not a direction they're going in. (Obviously the rats can be turned off. Can the clearances, though? )

Right now you can switch between normal (works as usual), openGL and Cairo (with AA). The latter two are view only. At least that is the way it compiles without messing with the code. The clearances might show up during routing, but I can't be sure. But the clearance fences didn't show up in the early demo videos as well. If the new router is as good as it appears to be, we might be OK without explicit visual feedback. It will just enforce the design rules... hopefully.

[c4757p]

If the new router is as good as it appears to be, we might be OK without explicit visual feedback. It will just enforce the design rules... hopefully.

This "I know you already have it, are used to it and like it, but trust us, you don't really need it, so we're taking it out because shiny" has become sadly rather common in open source software lately. *cough*gnome3*cough* Goddammit, the feature's already there, don't take it out!

I rather like having the clearances visible. I use them when placing the components - not just so the components themselves fit (of course, the DRC will enforce that), but so I can visualize where the tracks will go and where everything will fit together best.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Surely clearance will be visible if you want them. If they take that away they are going backwards.

How do you turn on the Open GL graphics, is it selectable or do you need to run the branch build?
Also I am running one of the recent daily builds but no push shove routing yet. Is that in another different branch.

I am really getting comfortable with Kicad now and my speed has increased a lot.
One thing I would like to be able to do though is override the track width of a segment more easily. ie it is basically one size normally but for space or current carrying capacity I want to change the track width of a particular segment. If it is larger I should be able to it without turning off the design rules or changing the assigned width of the whole net.
Any shortcuts here?

Yeah source control mandatory.

[c4757p]

Design rules -> Global design rules, add the width you want to the list of track widths. Then back in the PCB, select the width one of three ways: toolbar at the top, right click in black space while in track mode -> track width menu, or keyboard W or Ctrl-W. Then new tracks will be done in that width. Hover over an existing track and press E to change it to the new width. You can't go smaller than the DRC-defined minimum for that net, but you can go larger.

[madworm]

The preview stuff is in different branches.

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages

The visuals are in: https://code.launchpad.net/~cern-kicad/kicad/kicad-gal

The P & S router: https://code.launchpad.net/~cern-kicad/kicad/kicad-pns-tom

---

The openGL GUI is preview only (no editing, just zoom + pan), just as the Cairo one. You can switch between them in the preview version. Crashes from time to time and doesn't load some boards.

I couldn't compile the P & S router branch, as I don't have wxWidgets 2.9 yet.

[c4757p]

Is the Cairo engine as slow as my experience with Cairo would lead me to believe? Seems like OpenGL would be the way to go.

[madworm]

No. It is probably much slower - personally I wouldn't want to use it.

The openGL one looks the same to me, but sans AA.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Design rules -> Global design rules, add the width you want to the list of track widths.

Well that was easy enough, I can't really explain how I never found that before.
Thanks

I do like the look of the Open GL though and I can live with the blurry fonts.
Looks like the CERN team is actually helping. I must admit I was doubtful.

Only thing I need now is an export to Altium because some manufacturers seem to want that instead of gerbers. <kidding>

[hikariuk]

CERN has one student who'll work on it for one year. Oh dear, what KiCad needs is professionals with experience, not yet more student hacks.

Bear in mind that CERN "students" are generally PhD candidates working on the blunt end of research.

[madworm]

The KiCad developers have just merged 1 year of CERN development on KiCad.

The push & shove router is in there as well. Not perfect, but very impressive. The code compiles and I've shot a short video ;-)

[Dago]

Does anybody know a link where I could dload the testing binaries for kicad for windows with the CERN additions? I'm at work so I don't have the opportunity to compile them right now.

[madworm]

* https://code.launchpad.net/~kicad-testing-committers/kicad/testing
* http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages
* http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/Kicad-gal
* http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/files/
* https://launchpad.net/kicad-winbuilder
* http://escalalibre.com/edwt/

[minisystem]

This thread has been a fascinating read for me, an EDA newb.  I was using EagleCAD lite for small, simple boards but due to a combination of inexperience and fear, always relied on the autorouter to route boards. I graduated to KiCad because I needed to design larger boards but fell into the same trap of the autorouter (Freerouter). Finally, I got to a project where the autorouter choked and I had to start connecting traces by hand. This is a task I'm inherently not suited for and was getting ready to give up ( ) when the CERN push and shove router arrived on the scene. It's made all the difference. It's interesting to read about it's development history and common gripes among experienced users, but for an inexperienced user like me, KiCad (with CERN involvement) is looking better and better all the time. 

[dandumit]

I'm an old Kicad fan and just recently found out about push an shove.
Unfortunately I have an old laptop and it only supports OpenGL 2.1.
On Cairo , it's moving pretty slow.
Do you know what's the minimum OpenGL needed ?
BR,
Daniel

[madworm]

Currently a minimum of 2.1 is required. It does run with Intel GM945 graphics chips. Usable but not super fast.

Cairo is no joy, even with a decent NVidia card + dual core CPU.

[dandumit]

Hi,
I have an intel 965 Cipset video .
When I try to switch to OpenGL Canvas it tells me that OpenGl version 2.1 it's not supported.
I am running a precompiled version of PCBNew 4495.
Maybe newer versions are more "tolerant" to OpenGL version ?
Br,
Daniel

[madworm]

4495 is quite recent. Very unlikely.

Best guess is to check the graphics driver. I don't know what OS you run, but openGL 2.1 support was "unlocked" on my linux laptop just recently by an upgraded mesa driver. That machine is getting a bit old as far as computing power is concerned.

[dandumit]

I am running win 7 on a old  Dell Latitude  D630 .
I have just compiled Kicad 4578.
Again it's complaining that cannot run on a Open GL 2.1 .
I have the latest version of Intel Video Driver.

I'm confused. Do I need a new laptop just to have push and shove?

DAniel

[madworm]

As of now, it seems to be the case. You could try a recent (released 2nd half of this year) linux distro instead of winblows. Any serious gaming is certainly out of the question on that machine, so you might not really need the MS stuff on there.

I don't know how old your laptop is, mine is about 7-8 years old. Good enough for 'standard' kicad, barely usable for openGL. It is showing its age more and more. Unfortunately graphics chips can't be upgraded.

[Twistx77]

Hi,

Yesterday I was listening to the Amp Hour and Chris Gammel said that he have been talking to one of the KiCad developers from CERN and it seems that the KiCad "project" hasn't been approved by the CERN yet.

I suppose that it is a question of money, right?

Then you can see in the CERN's KiCad page this:

"All donations will be put to immediate use in developing Kicad. Any amount is welcome and will be gratefully received. This page will be updated regularly to show how your gifts are contributing towards our targets.
A gift of...   Would provide...
€50   1 hour of expert Kicad development
€400   1 day of expert Kicad development
Combining the hours and days of development supported by your gifts will bring the project ever closer to reaching its targets.
Reaching a target of...   Would allow developers to...
€150,000   Make Kicad usable for very complex Printed Circuit Board designs with acceptable productivity.
€300,000   Bring Kicad in line with the best proprietary tools, and outclass them in some respects. "

Anyone else think that they might be able to pull off a KickStarter campaign to get the founds needed?

I would gladly pay up to 100$ if they commit to the task.

They could offer maybe help routing boards or maybe to make components for KiCad or anything else.

What do you guys think?

 

[Frost]

What do you guys think?

I'm not sure what to think about it.
CERN is one of the worlds largest research centers
with a billion euro budget per year.

But they are not able to spend 250.000 Euro per year,
lets say for two years, to make this thing usable?
That amount of money will be peanuts compared
to their total budget.

So I think in reality it seams like there's no real interest
within the organisation to further develop this thing 

[Bored@Work]

Yesterday I was listening to the Amp Hour and Chris Gammel said that he have been talking to one of the KiCad developers from CERN and it seems that the KiCad "project" hasn't been approved by the CERN yet.

I suppose that it is a question of money, right?

Right from the beginning they mentioned they have a very tight budget for KiCad work, and that they are looking for donations. They were probably making a bit too much noise about their potential contributions, compared to the budged they have.

What do you guys think?

Without checking CERN's bylaws I would think that PCB layout software development is not part of CERN's core mission. Either they manage to make a very strong case towards CERN decision makers why KiCAD work is needed for CERN, get enough donations, or will have to cut down their involvement.

[dandumit]

Well, Cern has his buget's for different projects...

For now I am very pleased with push and spring functionality of Kicad.

If I would know how to lead this development I would offer myself for administrative parts.

I wonder if would work a Kickstarter campaign ?
It would be needed also pretty much publicity ...

Kind REgards,
Daniel

[Twistx77]

$50? get Autotrax dex
$500? get diptrace
$5K? get Altium
$1M? teach me how to open kickstarter account, i'll quit my current job
another jk.
[/quote]

Yes you can pay that for those softwares but first then you would have to pay for every update, second you can't run those in Windows, Linux and OSX and third, they are not open source which maybe for most people won't matter but hey between something close and something open, I stay with the open .

Anyway, I think that if money is the problem KickStarter could be at least a bit helpful.

I would like to work on KiCad but I've never worked in a software project so big. Does anyone know what would be the best way to start learning all the things needed to work in this kind of projects? I know C and Java but I only know how to work in small projects where there is not many people involved.

[johansen]

My advice is figure out how to get better understanding between the users and the developers.
They recently pushed an update, i forget which BZR it was but it fixed some issue where the libraries are now auto populated in the library manager... like they should be.
Only problem is I can't figure out how to include my custom libraries, which, are a mess btw, and i need a library manager that will properly organize the individual parts inside the various libraries they are bundled in.
I googled the issues (getting the new library manager to load the libraries) and came across a bunch of politics in a bug report surrounding someone else who had the same problem and "couldn't read the directions"

a friend of mine and coworker, and my boss were actually interested in using it for a few projects, rather than  Altium, for various reasons. It really does have that potential but folks; the developers are French, that's all you need to know. 

[dandumit]

... were actually interested in using it for a few projects, rather than  Altium, for various reasons. It really does have that potential but folks; the developers are French, that's all you need to know. 

Well (despite the fact that how you say it French would be a bit offending) personally I admire those French guys ! They have managed to make an open source product that's better than many paid products.  No one else in this world have done this yet.
More than that development team it's composed from people around the world.

I have never passed the step learning curve of Eagle. Personally I think that Kicad it's a far better alternative.

[johansen]

I have never passed the step learning curve of Eagle. Personally I think that Kicad it's a far better alternative.

neither did I, and there's nothing other than gEDA that's not crippled.
and yes that was a joke.

[poorchava]

I believe the CERN developer working on KiCAD is actually Polish, not French. His name's Tomasz Wlostowski I think.

Anyway - Kicad is still light years behind DipTrace, not to mention Altium.

[dandumit]

I believe the CERN developer working on KiCAD is actually Polish, not French. His name's Tomasz Wlostowski I think.

Anyway - Kicad is still light years behind DipTrace, not to mention Altium.

DipTrace Lite500 pins, 2 signal layers - $ 145

Also I didn't find push & shove on dip trace ...

[ve7xen]

My advice is figure out how to get better understanding between the users and the developers.
They recently pushed an update, i forget which BZR it was but it fixed some issue where the libraries are now auto populated in the library manager... like they should be.
Only problem is I can't figure out how to include my custom libraries, which, are a mess btw, and i need a library manager that will properly organize the individual parts inside the various libraries they are bundled in.
I googled the issues (getting the new library manager to load the libraries) and came across a bunch of politics in a bug report surrounding someone else who had the same problem and "couldn't read the directions"

a friend of mine and coworker, and my boss were actually interested in using it for a few projects, rather than  Altium, for various reasons. It really does have that potential but folks; the developers are French, that's all you need to know. 

I encountered this recently too. If you go to Pcbnew->Prefs->Library Tables you can do Append Row and put in the path to your .mod file. Set the type to Legacy. It'll then appear in the library selector, and your existing layouts should be able to find their modules.

It'll take some time and effort but this new library manager looks promising.

[dandumit]

It'll take some time and effort but this new library manager looks promising.

From which release has appeared this library manager ?

Daniel

[ve7xen]

It'll take some time and effort but this new library manager looks promising.

From which release has appeared this library manager ?

Daniel

I'm not sure in which commit it appeared. I compiled BZR 4631 a few days ago and it has it.

[Twistx77]

for a start maybe you can look at each subroutines and try to figure out how all of them connect one to another. have you been boggled by your own codes? and then try to understand the toolchains and args for each OS needed to produce binaries, good luck some members here are already in their journey modding it.

I've been looking to the code, the problem for me is in the toolchain and building the application side of things.

[Bassman59]

I've been looking to the code, the problem for me is in the toolchain and building the application side of things.

goto there website there explained everything...

Like many others, I've attempted to build Kicad (I prefer OS X), and failed. The developers certainly don't make it easy.

[ElektroQuark]

Kicadwinbuilder automates Windows makes. But it fails in my system. It looks like a Bazaar problem. I passed the bug to Bazaar developer but it seems the development is stoped.

[dandumit]

It's not stopped.  It just answers when it has time.

I hope that you don't refer to library issue...

My opinion : please try again in 1-2 days on other version. I have met often this situation : some versions weren't compiled on my computer. I have tried again in 1-2 days and it went out.
Kind Regards,
DAniel

[ElektroQuark]

It's a Bazaar error with encoding. Not KiCAD problem.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

No pun intended ^

[ElektroQuark]

Sorry, I don't catch it. 

[djsb]

From Milan Horak on the Launchpad developers list.

Hi gentlemen,

seems like I was finally able to compile Windows version of Kicad.

On http://kicad.nosoftware.cz there is r4636 packaged (without docs, demos and libraries). Please test and report. Thank you.

Linux versions are available as well - r4631 in versions for Debian (32 and 64) and Ubuntu (32 and 64).

Milan

[Icchan]

I really hope this gets really going. There's a real need for a open tool that's really capable of doing professional design work. But like any other Open Source project: without money it's not going to get anywhere really.

We need companies and such that would benefit from the KiCad CERN branch to get the support it desperately needs. Random free time development doesn't really cut it, that's what has been shown in any other open source project... if the industry isn't behind it, it's not going to get anywhere really. open source need money and that's it. developers need to eat too you know.

[madworm]

More push & shove router goodness!



Available in BZR 4875 and later.

https://code.launchpad.net/kicad

[ve7xen]

Wow this seems to be getting usable quite quickly. I'm impressed. Will try it out next time I need to lay out a board.

[Bloch]

Quote from: madworm on Yesterday at 12:24:20 AM

More push & shove router goodness!

Available in BZR 4875 and later.

>https://code.launchpad.net/kicad

Available 

Available as in read many hours of documentation + download compiler + beg for some good luck 

KiCad_stable-2013.07.07-BZR4022 

[madworm]

Well... nothing is for free.

Reading a few guides /  manuals sounds more attractive to me than paying 1000s of dollars. You read & setup the build environment just once, maybe more often if you use winblows.

And you attempt to belittle the capabilities of that piece of software only shows your own deficiencies. Try again.

[Bloch]

Quote from: madworm on Today at 02:10:13 AM

Well... nothing is for free.

Very true

But some free stuff are good some bad

And you attempt to belittle the capabilities of that piece of software

Me ? there ? If i did i would have mention the capabilities it would have beed that it look cool and would love to try it out.

Reading a few guides /  manuals sounds more attractive to me than paying 1000s of dollars. You read & setup the build environment just once, maybe more often if you use winblows.

  May i ask you a question  Are the bios in you motherboard a stock ? .......... If it is why did you not take time to do it you self I bet it is realy easy 

only shows your own deficiencies. Try again.

[madworm]

The source code of my PC's BIOS is not available.

If you have anything substantial to say about the software itself, please do so. The mere fact that you don't like to compile it yourself is understandable, but has nothing to do with this thread.

If you use winblows, try this: http://escalalibre.com/edwt/kicad_testingBinaries/

[Bloch]

>The source code of my PC's BIOS is not available.
Did you check http://www.coreboot.org/ ?


>The mere fact that you don't like to compile it yourself is understandable, but has nothing to do with this thread.


Dear mister Policeman it have every thing to do with it.


For a year ago CERN's did give CODE to KiCAD


But it is not in the official release. Why not ? Are the code bad ? or cant the core coders understant it ? If it is so great why not share it to the rest of the world ?

[ve7xen]

Isn't all of CERNs code available to everyone via the Bazaar repository?

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

[Codemonkey]

For a year ago CERN's did give CODE to KiCAD


But it is not in the official release. Why not ? Are the code bad ? or cant the core coders understant it ? If it is so great why not share it to the rest of the world ?

If you'd actually bothered to find the original announcement instead of just posting rubbish, you'd see that the code is now in the production branch, so I guess the software IS good enough for the developers. 

[Bloch]

>production branch

production branch = http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Download > KiCad for Windows > KiCad_stable-2013.07.07-BZR4022_Win_full_version.exe ??

[Codemonkey]

>production branch

production branch = http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/KICAD/Download > KiCad for Windows > KiCad_stable-2013.07.07-BZR4022_Win_full_version.exe ??

 

A released binary is not the production branch.

Are you really surprised that something announced today is not in a binary that was released in 2013 ?
Just cos you are seemingly incapable of building the application from source does not mean others are unable. The source is in the production branch of the repository, freely available for you to build should you care to spend a few precious moments of your time to figure out how (hint, searching for kicad winbuilder would help). Subscribing to the mailing lists would also reveal that there are already people who have built it and are trying it.

[Bassman59]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

[hak8or]

So, has anyone got a windows build to offer?

The kwinbuild is atrociously slow and does not give a working result, as shown: https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad-winbuilder/+bug/1315945/comments/4

Cross compiling it as per CERN's instructions(http://www.ohwr.org/documents/251) does not seem to work, specifically due to:

• The patch file for wxwidgets is no longer current
• apt-get should also have these packages included: autopoint gperf
• step 6 should have .static added to the i686-pc-mingw32 directory, turning it into i686-pc-mingw32.static

And it being very slow, with copying of the bzr branch taking a very, very, very long time (I am taking a few hours here!). Downloading the source tarball seems to be a possible replacement. There is also a git mirror on github that is infinitely faster but I am not familiar enough with bzr to see if there are any gotcha's with using the git mirror instead.

Compiling wxwidgets is also a horrifically slow process.

And boost for kicad does not seem to want to compile due to "error: Invalid property '<cflags>': No value specified for feature 'cflags'." which seems to an OSX issue based on a github issue opened for this, but there does not appear to be a relevant solution to windows cross compiling.

I emailed the CERN guy about the issues with the cross compilation instructions and how to fix them, with him replying he is informing others of the possibly necessary changes, so that's good. Hopefully once I am able to get cross compiling working for Kicad I will throw up an automated build bot so others can just download the executables and whatnot without having to build it themselves and go through this rubbish.

[firewalker]

Download kicad-winbuilder and replace KiCadWinbuilder.cmake with the one attached.

Alexander.

[hak8or]

Thank you for the cmake file! Unfortunately after a few hours of fumbling around trying to get this to compile, it's a no go for me. BZR is just so god awful slow, I am getting 2 KB/s most of the time, and sometimes bzr just flat out stops and doesn't continue. Manually ctrl-c'ing and then restarting it by double clicking make.bat gives me bzr lock issues, which after I "un lock" the files I get other bogus bzr errors.

I tried editing the cmake file to get rid of downloading the source using bzr and instead just manually put in the source from a tarball but then I get issues with boost libraries not wanting to compile (not the same as before). Firewalker, did it actually fully compile for you using that cmake file, all the way from scratch to being able to actually use it? What OS are you running? Win8/7? 32/64 bit?

Sadly the git mirror is not up to date it seems, and me putting my ssh key into launchpad did not help my speeds. Either I am doing something wrong, which I am extremely doubtful, or there are some serious issues with bzr or the project itself. It compiles on linux for linux totally fine though, ah well.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

The most important thing in building any c, c++ stuff on windows is to build it on a path with no spaces. Dont ask me why stuff like this is still an issue.

My build path is "C:\KicadBuild\kicad-winbuilder-3-3", it started working when I moved it away from "C:\Program Files\Kicad"  or wherever the default is.

Hope your issue is as simple as this.

[hak8or]

Thanks for the suggestion, but sadly that is one of my first things I checked. My build path has been C:\Users\hak8or\Desktop\kicad-winbuilder-3.3 but no dice. I might try again one last time by running it at the actual root of the drive, but the file path is so short as is that it shouldn't make a diffirence.

[hak8or]

Here is what I ended up doing instead, partially because BZR on windows is for some reason horrifically slow for me.

Download vmplayer (free version at the bottom of the page)
http://www.vmware.com/products/player

Download Kubuntu. Please consider using a torrent to save them bandwidth costs.
http://www.kubuntu.org/getkubuntu

Set up vmplayer with Kubuntu as the boost ISO and let Kubuntu install (this takes like 10 minutes). Don't skimp on RAM for it since compiling with too little RAM will give you internal compiler errors, I gave it 2 GB and it was fine.

After Kubuntu is installed, run apt-get update and then apt-get upgrade so it gets all the recent updates.

Download this script and edit line 42 from "REVISION=$STABLE" to "REVISION=$TESTING"
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kicad-product-committers/kicad/product/view/head:/scripts/kicad-install.sh

Run the script and wait a good hour or so for it to fully compile and set itself up.

When this is all done, you can use kcad normally inside the VM. To start Kcad click on the icon on the bottom left, search for Kcad, and start it from there.

You can also run Kcad in Unity mode so it would look like a normal application in windows. This will give you a look like this:

Keep in mind that the non stable branch is, well, not stable! There are bugs, and it throws a fit when you try to open a new window with Unity. But other than that, it works!

Edit: OpenGL mode does not work for now using this setup, use Cario which is far slower but looks nicer while also not crashing every time you want to work with the new auto router.
Here is what quick few clicks did for me while getting a feel for kicad:

[Vasi]

Actually, is much simpler to install a "push&shove" version of KiCAD (the router is named "the interactive router"). It does not need compilation, as is an windows installer:

http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/windows/KiCad_testing-2014.10.03-BZR5161_Win_full_version.exe

After installing it, you have to watch this tutorial to know how to use those great options when you design the pcb:

[djsb]

Differential pair routing coming soon.

[elgonzo]

nobody who are able to build binary for windows care to build the latest code branch? i heard good stories but the build i have is still the ancient one.

If you are using Windows, get yourself kicad-winbuilder. It will checkout the current kicad sources, download all dependencies, and build kicad -- all you need to do is running a simple batch file.

If you don't have the fastest internet connection or no patience for the build to complete or hate kicadwinbuilder, you might check the downloads at http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/. Latest Windows build offered there is at time of writing the revision BZR5376 from 17. January.

[Mechatrommer]

kicad-winbuilder
http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/.

thank you! those are rare links, i'll download after 2AM when the traffic is cleared, and if i'm still concious.

[firewalker]

All those features are nice to have. But they should really do a code freeze and release a stable version.

Alexander.

[Codemonkey]

That's pretty much what they're doing now. I think the plan is for a release sometime in the next 6 months if I recall (could be wrong). Certainly they're no longer making big changes anyway.

For what its worth, I've been using whatever is latest using the kicad winbuilder script to build it and it's been really quite stable. I've done about 5 boards with it now and not had any issues other than the 3d viewer thing which got a bit upset with one of my boards, hardly the end of the world.

[firewalker]

Great news!

I have be using the rolling version, and submitting bugs, for more than a year now.

Alexander.

[zapta]

All those features are nice to have. But they should really do a code freeze and release a stable version.

Alexander.

+1

Including an official binary release for Mac OSX. 

[stryker]

I've been using the launchpad winbuilder to use some of these new features.  I couldn't see me sticking with KiCad without them.

My first experience wasn't great, but the second attempt has been stable and I've stuck with it.  I plan to update every month or so.  Its a fluid and evolving product like so many open source products I use so I don't expect it to stay still.

[Mechatrommer]

i downloaded latest binary. why i got broken traces when editing segment? is it becoming worst than "dex freeangle" routing? or is it just me?

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

looks like you dragged the segment.

If not can you reproduce?

[c4757p]

G to move the whole trace. M or dragging just picks up the one segment.

Though keep in mind that the routing algorithm is still early - it does occasionally do not so clever things. But this looks like you just used the wrong tool.

[Mechatrommer]

G to move the whole trace. M or dragging just picks up the one segment.
Though keep in mind that the routing algorithm is still early - it does occasionally do not so clever things. But this looks like you just used the wrong tool.

thanks for the tip but... i didnt click anything, just open up the sample pcb, click on a segment and drag. M did the same thing, the white arrow button on top right also did the same thing. G did not do anything. i expect "auto reroute" on the other connected segments, hence they all still connected when i drag something. dragging a component footprint also leave the once connected trace as is, making it unconnected after dragging. this version (latest) of kicad went into super simple pencil and paper routing mode by default. 

[stryker]

Not sure how you did that at all.  If you're in Add Tracks & Vias mode, without using a shortcut clicking and dragging a trace just creates a bounding box just like in the default mode.  M grabbs one end of the segment but it stays connected; G grabs the segment but it stays connected.  Just trying this as I type in build BZR5380 for Windows.    +1

[Mechatrommer]

i activate switch canvas to OpenGL, that way it draw way faster and then i have "realtime" segment click and drag, very well i guess that one step ahead in this version, and what was explained (create bounding box and select/move segments) is the way kicad has been doing by default, that for me is several steps more than what i used to in other eda, nevermind, thanks.

[stryker]

Confirmed.  I get what you see in opengl view too.

[PeterZ]

I'm on 5376 Win7 (install from http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/). It looks like the Grab/Move functions work as described only in default viewing mode. When switched to OpenGL i can only move a whole segment of a track. There is no Grab function when you right-click over a track:

[c4757p]

i didnt click anything, just open up the sample pcb, click on a segment and drag.

You didn't click, you just clicked?

Switch to track edit mode first. X.

[firewalker]

Works fine with 5403 (GNU/Linux) when in track mode.



Alexander.

[PeterZ]

Hah, i just routed the whole board by switching back to default to move vias/tracks  . Learned something new today! I can confirm, it works in 5376/Win7 ok, the key is to turn on the track edit mode.

[Mechatrommer]

Works fine with 5403 (GNU/Linux) when in track mode.
[picture]

ditto! now its so much fun with push and shove somemore...

the key is to turn on the track edit mode.

the problem is when i hover the mouse on the said button it says "add tracks and vias" i aint "adding", i want to just "edit" or "move". now i know some tricks and shortcuts. i'm a kicad noobs dont blame me i've been come and go from kicad install looking for a reason why i should learn kicad more... today i found one reason

[elgonzo]

FYI: CERN gives KiCAD some exposure in the updates section of their web site, also mentioning the soon to be coming differential pair routing and trace length matching features...

[Dave Turner]

I've been using the Ubuntu Software Centre's offering for Kicad (16-Jul-2014 BZR) but am very interested in the CERN advancements.

So two questions:-

a) Can someone point me to a CERN version compiled for Linux preferably with detailed installation instructions?

b) Does anyone with Ubuntu connections know if they intend to offer the new CERN Kicad upgrades any time?

[elgonzo]

I've been using the Ubuntu Software Centre's offering for Kicad (16-Jul-2014 BZR) but am very interested in the CERN advancements.

So two questions:-

a) Can someone point me to a CERN version compiled for Linux preferably with detailed installation instructions?

b) Does anyone with Ubuntu connections know if they intend to offer the new CERN Kicad upgrades any time?

As of now KiCad does not offer stable build (well, they do, but they are rather old).
A stable version with the current feature set is at least several months away. 

More recent builds (based on snapshots from KiCad's source repository) can be found here: http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/
However, the builds offered there are for Kubuntu (i have no idea if it will run on a plain Ubuntu installation).

Build instructions for Linux are found on KiCad's homepage: http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/DEV/Building+KiCad+on+Linux

[Dave Turner]

Thanks Elgonzo. I'll wait a month or so until the CERN offering is further ahead.

[Icchan]

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

If they wanted to get more users (not more hackers/developers) they would believe in those. And as such they can't get it as an accepted tool for industry since it doesn't want to be. And since it doesn't want to be a tool for industry it doesn't get more support from industry in form of code / donations. (Industry needs functioning tools and stable releases that they can do work on)

I read developers mailing list the other day, and found out that KiCad doesn't have any "usability team" and it explains why the usability of the program is so clunky and many things just feel little or a lot off. I was however glad that someone had the skills and interest to try to fix many basic problems with KiCads usability, however it can take many months or years for that one particular individual to get those improvements implemented unless he gets help.

KiCad needs more developers but more importantly the development should be better organized (managed) than it is right now IMO... too much freedom creates programs that have a lot of stuff, but in which nothing's polished up.

[c4757p]

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

If they wanted to get more users (not more hackers/developers) they would believe in those.

Chatter on their IRC channel indicates they're targeting a new stable release this summer with the CERN stuff and a lot more polish.

[Warhawk]

And what is the deal with CERN releases ? I thought that CERN will create a separate branch aside of KiCad developers. Or not ? I also read somewhere that CERN should release something these days, right ?

There are so many information about CERN and KiCad around the web that I am lost, completely 

[Icchan]

Chatter on their IRC channel indicates they're targeting a new stable release this summer with the CERN stuff and a lot more polish.

That's good to hear. Hopefully in few years the KiCad really is a tool that someone less technically oriented can use. Or someone who wants a tool that works more than a tool that's free.

If that happens they will get the large industry interested and invested to the development and KiCad will wipe the floor with all others sooner or later.

[aveekbh]

I've been using the Ubuntu Software Centre's offering for Kicad (16-Jul-2014 BZR) but am very interested in the CERN advancements.
...
a) Can someone point me to a CERN version compiled for Linux preferably with detailed installation instructions?

I use the daily build PPA from https://code.launchpad.net/~js-reynaud/+archive/ubuntu/ppa-kicad, although I don't know if CERN's additions are included.

(Not sure if that helps  )

[c4757p]

And what is the deal with CERN releases ? I thought that CERN will create a separate branch aside of KiCad developers. Or not ? I also read somewhere that CERN should release something these days, right ?

There are so many information about CERN and KiCad around the web that I am lost, completely 

There isn't a CERN-kicad branch per se. The CERN team is doing their own work on the side, and then as work units become complete, merging them into the main code. The team is also working directly on the main code to fix up what's already there. AFAIK, while the work is being done it is not publicly available, though I could be wrong. They are "releasing" it in complete - as in, working, not as in fully polished - units.

[janoc]

Give the Kicad guys a break, please.

I am using a recently built-from-source version of Kicad. Why there isn't a "stable" release out yet? Well, because it isn't finished yet. If they released something half-assed that eats your files for lunch, the users would whine even more. Would you prefer that?

At this moment they really don't need more users to bombard them with complaints about stuff that is this or that. They need more developers to both lead the project and to polish the things that are there already.

Consider the fact that there were I think only 1 or 2 people from CERN working on the project (and probably not full time neither) and that there are only a few outside volunteer developers working on it. It certainly isn't a sexy project like writing a yet another re-implementation of a window manager or a theme engine or some crazy framework, that always tend to attract a lot of contributors, so no surprise that the pace is quite glacial.

And what is the deal with CERN releases ? I thought that CERN will create a separate branch aside of KiCad developers. Or not ? I also read somewhere that CERN should release something these days, right ?

The CERN guys are working as a part of the Kicad team, there isn't a separate "CERN" release, AFAIK. The CERN stuff is merged in the main code already, but not yet fully integrated. For example, the CERN push & shove routing works, but you must switch to the OpenGL rendering. It doesn't work in the "normal" one. But then you cannot use other tools, like copper pours and have to switch back. It is annoying. The library management is still very rough, I have noticed some bugs with pin placement in the schematic symbol editor, etc. It certainly isn't ready for prime time in the sense you download it and expect everything to work, like with commercial software. It is usable, though.

[c4757p]

Give the Kicad guys a break, please.

I am using a recently built-from-source version of Kicad. Why there isn't a "stable" release out yet? Well, because it isn't finished yet. If they released something half-assed that eats your files for lunch, the users would whine even more. Would you prefer that?

At this moment they really don't need more users to bombard them with complaints about stuff that is this or that. They need more developers to both lead the project and to polish the things that are there already.

This so much. They're making huge changes for the next version. This isn't released yet, though it's available because it's an open source project. You're free to use the code as they work on it, but it's incomplete, just as though an artist allowed you to see his unfinished painting. You don't get to whine that it's unfinished, that was the whole deal. Enjoy the unfinished painting if it's good enough for you, and if it's not, go look at the last painting for a while, it wasn't bad. The new, better one will be finished soon enough.

[ElektroQuark]

KiCad Revision 5468:

"Merged the differential pair router & track length tuning tool."

And there are a bunch of other "less" important things added too.

It looks like the Rasberry Pi Fundations has donate a significant amount to the project.


Thanks to all of the pepople that are making this posible.

[djsb]

Video demo here

[Icchan]

For example, the CERN push & shove routing works, but you must switch to the OpenGL rendering. It doesn't work in the "normal" one. But then you cannot use other tools, like copper pours and have to switch back. It is annoying. The library management is still very rough, I have noticed some bugs with pin placement in the schematic symbol editor, etc. It certainly isn't ready for prime time in the sense you download it and expect everything to work, like with commercial software. It is usable, though.

That's why KiCad developement needs to get little bit more organized IHMO. Goalposts, feature freezes, bug squash releases (to concentrate the efforts of people developing the software) and separate teams that would concentrate on specific areas of the development, usability, routing, graphics, schematic capture (and you could contribute to any of them of course). And someone to oversee the code that's brought to the project in general so it's high quality.

Of course this is a project run by volunteers without monetary gain to be had from the work they put in, but if industry gets a tool they can really use, it will feed back to the project in form of contributions from industry and more money for dedicated development of the tool that they rely on.

Of course that's quite long way away still. but it can happen if people who can, contribute to the project with code and bug-fixes and feature improvements.

Sadly, most electronic engineers are not coders and already own the tools they use to get stuff done. So it's a chicken or the egg problem of getting things going. But it's happening and that's something we can be thankful for.

[nuno]

The link on your signature doesn't work.

I think KiCAD is actually usable, although it lacks some organizing as you say, and has a few annoying interface bugs. It feels like it could easily become a great tool, and I hope it gets there soon.

[krivx]

I think KiCAD is actually usable, although it lacks some organizing as you say, and has a few annoying interface bugs. It feels like it could easily become a great tool, and I hope it gets there soon.

I agree it's usable, it's just a little frustrating that most interface bugs seem to be very minor issues. When using different rendering modes the hotkeys change, panning in OpenGL mode seems to be voodoo, some features are not implemented in different modes so I am constantly switching back and forth...

Does anyone know if there is any documentation on jumping into the Kicad code? I am happy to let the main developers work on differential routing if I can hack in consistent keyboard shortcuts.

[timofonic]

; j

Give the Kicad guys a break, please.

I am using a recently built-from-source version of Kicad. Why there isn't a "stable" release out yet? Well, because it isn't finished yet. If they released something half-assed that eats your files for lunch, the users would whine even more. Would you prefer that?

At this moment they really don't need more users to bombard them with complaints about stuff that is this or that. They need more developers to both lead the project and to polish the things that are there already.

This so much. They're making huge changes for the next version. This isn't released yet, though it's available because it's an open source project. You're free to use the code as they work on it, but it's incomplete, just as though an artist allowed you to see his unfinished painting. You don't get to whine that it's unfinished, that was the whole deal. Enjoy the unfinished painting if it's good enough for you, and if it's not, go look at the last painting for a while, it wasn't bad. The new, better one will be finished soon enough.

I found this:

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/DEV/KiCad+Development

Their site sucks, it's part of a giant TODO and it seems they lack of a web designer/developer for it.

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kicad-product-committers/kicad/product/view/head:/Documentation/development/road-map.md

[elgonzo]

I found this:

http://www.kicad-pcb.org/display/DEV/KiCad+Development

Their site sucks, it's part of a giant TODO and it seems they lack of a web designer/developer for it.

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kicad-product-committers/kicad/product/view/head:/Documentation/development/road-map.md

Beyond allowing easy downloads of releases and providing proper documentation -- plus some links to up-to-date tutorials and other 3rd-party content perhaps -- there is no pressing need to create a fancy web site. Good and accurate documentation is more important than offering eye candy. Still, the KiCad developers would certainly much appreciate web designers volunteering for this task...

[mrflibble]

Page where that markup (.md) is rendered:

https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/blob/master/Documentation/development/road-map.md

[c4757p]

Circuiteromalaguito, you appear not to have read the post you quoted. TL;DR?

[Icchan]

The link on your signature doesn't work.

Thanks, they've changed the address. And this forum software doesn't update your past messages if you change your signature... which is bad

[Mechatrommer]

Circuiteromalaguito, you appear not to have read the post you quoted. TL;DR?

another new guy on the block that mourns at free stuff...

[timofonic]

Hello.

I tried to do a constructive opinion, it seems I failed.

I don't care about a fancy website, but a functional one. Take a look at projects such as OpenWRT, they provide a news section on main page so they say to the world their project is alive! 

I just would like some volunteer would improve the site a bit, I'm very interested in KiCad. There's FreeEDA too, a way to integrate it with ngspice and others.

Regards.

 

Circuiteromalaguito, you appear not to have read the post you quoted. TL;DR?

another new guy on the block that mourns at free stuff...

[elgonzo]

I tried to do a constructive opinion, it seems I failed.

Yupp, you failed Saying something sucks and not saying anything more is definitely an opinion (perhaps even a valid one); but it is not a constructive opinion...

I don't care about a fancy website, but a functional one. Take a look at projects such as OpenWRT, they provide a news section on main page so they say to the world their project is alive! 

Now, here's where you start making some constructive suggestion...

[nickoe]

I believe the CERN developer working on KiCAD is actually Polish, not French. His name's Tomasz Wlostowski I think.

Anyway - Kicad is still light years behind DipTrace, not to mention Altium.

There is not only one. There is two, Maciej Sum?inski and Tomasz Wlostowski. And yes, they are both Polish. Also there is the Javier Serrano, which I think don't write code, but is the more administrative guy in relation between CERN and KiCad.

But for anyone interrested, Javier is requesting success stories see: https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17537.html

This is what helps getting funding for KiCad, I am sure if you can show some success stories using KiCad in an educational environment, he would definitely also love to hear it.

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases. Please read this: http://ci.kicad-pcb.org/job/kicad-doxygen/ws/Documentation/doxygen/html/md_Documentation_development_stable-release-policy.html

FYI: CERN gives KiCAD some exposure in the updates section of their web site, also mentioning the soon to be coming differential pair routing and trace length matching features...

It has been committed now! See: https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17163.html

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

If they wanted to get more users (not more hackers/developers) they would believe in those.

Chatter on their IRC channel indicates they're targeting a new stable release this summer with the CERN stuff and a lot more polish.

Feature freeze has been initiated, https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17606.html

And what is the deal with CERN releases ? I thought that CERN will create a separate branch aside of KiCad developers. Or not ? I also read somewhere that CERN should release something these days, right ?

There are so many information about CERN and KiCad around the web that I am lost, completely 

They will push to the product branch (the development branch intended to always be in working state watched by the continious integration build server). But when new features are to be released, like for example the differential paris and length tuning, they would only "release" it when it is more or less ready for the public testing.

And what is the deal with CERN releases ? I thought that CERN will create a separate branch aside of KiCad developers. Or not ? I also read somewhere that CERN should release something these days, right ?

There are so many information about CERN and KiCad around the web that I am lost, completely 

There isn't a CERN-kicad branch per se. The CERN team is doing their own work on the side, and then as work units become complete, merging them into the main code. The team is also working directly on the main code to fix up what's already there. AFAIK, while the work is being done it is not publicly available, though I could be wrong. They are "releasing" it in complete - as in, working, not as in fully polished - units.

Ohh well, you also explained it pretty well.

Page where that markup (.md) is rendered:

https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/blob/master/Documentation/development/road-map.md

Or just read it in the compiled dev docs.

I think KiCAD is actually usable, although it lacks some organizing as you say, and has a few annoying interface bugs. It feels like it could easily become a great tool, and I hope it gets there soon.

I agree it's usable, it's just a little frustrating that most interface bugs seem to be very minor issues. When using different rendering modes the hotkeys change, panning in OpenGL mode seems to be voodoo, some features are not implemented in different modes so I am constantly switching back and forth...

Does anyone know if there is any documentation on jumping into the Kicad code? I am happy to let the main developers work on differential routing if I can hack in consistent keyboard shortcuts.

There is not one single document  as a quick start on digging into the code. I could find some references, but they might not help you at all. What you need to do is to get it building and figure out what you want to contribute with. I would suggest you to jump on the IRC channel #kicad@freenode. The main developers are not hanging around in there, but some other valuable contributers are. This should help you get started (if you haven't already).

---

I apoligise if some of theese questions has already been answerd, but just trawled the thread and tried to answer some questions while reading.

[Bassman59]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

You are correct -- remember that my post was from May of last year. I've been following the developer mailing list (and testing things when I can), and they've declared a feature freeze with the goal of a stable release on all supported platforms ASAP.

[nickoe]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

You are correct -- remember that my post was from May of last year. I've been following the developer mailing list (and testing things when I can), and they've declared a feature freeze with the goal of a stable release on all supported platforms ASAP.

Yes, I know the initial thread is old. But I don't rember seeing your nick on the bug tracker (you could ofc be using something else), please help on there if you are testing anyways, and please report bugs (if not already in the tracker).

[timofonic]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

You are correct -- remember that my post was from May of last year. I've been following the developer mailing list (and testing things when I can), and they've declared a feature freeze with the goal of a stable release on all supported platforms ASAP.

Yes, I know the initial thread is old. But I don't rember seeing your nick on the bug tracker (you could ofc be using something else), please help on there if you are testing anyways, and please report bugs (if not already in the tracker).

Are there plans for a blog with development and projects news?

[nickoe]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

You are correct -- remember that my post was from May of last year. I've been following the developer mailing list (and testing things when I can), and they've declared a feature freeze with the goal of a stable release on all supported platforms ASAP.

Yes, I know the initial thread is old. But I don't rember seeing your nick on the bug tracker (you could ofc be using something else), please help on there if you are testing anyways, and please report bugs (if not already in the tracker).

Are there plans for a blog with development and projects news?

Sort of and sort of not.

There has been some discussion about the subject in https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17387.html

Nothing has been decieded yet as such, it is an open ended discussion, we just need people to do it. But Mark Roszko said:

> I was thinking of volunteering to do something like this as I
> primarily do web development outside my usual work of embedded
> systems. I think it would be easy to make a very pretty "modern" kicad
> home page for non developers. I would love to have kicad be more
> inviting for non devs as the website write now is quite unwelcoming
> for such users.

We are thinking about using a static site generator on github or similar. Then people can contribute easily via pull requests and the changes can be reviewed. By doing this, it should also be easier to compose a blog/news section collecting announcements and other things.

I myself was looking at trying pelican, because it has support for asciidoc, which is used for the new documentation, such that we can embed the documentation in the same streamlined site

[timofonic]

I don't see your complaint. Is it that the official releases lag the development releases in features? Because duh. This stuff is brand spanking new and not tested in the wild. It's not suitable for general release yet. If you don't want to build the development version yourself, either stop complaining and wait for an official release to come or find some kind soul who has spared you the task of setting up a working build environment and download a binary.

Just a point - the Kicad developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

There is a "stable" development branch in their Launchpad repository but it has not been updated since January.

It is not quite true that the Developers don't believe in "official" or "stable" releases.

You are correct -- remember that my post was from May of last year. I've been following the developer mailing list (and testing things when I can), and they've declared a feature freeze with the goal of a stable release on all supported platforms ASAP.

Yes, I know the initial thread is old. But I don't rember seeing your nick on the bug tracker (you could ofc be using something else), please help on there if you are testing anyways, and please report bugs (if not already in the tracker).

Are there plans for a blog with development and projects news?

Sort of and sort of not.

There has been some discussion about the subject in https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg17387.html

Nothing has been decieded yet as such, it is an open ended discussion, we just need people to do it. But Mark Roszko said:

I was thinking of volunteering to do something like this as I primarily do web development outside my usual work of embedded systems. I think it would be easy to make a very pretty "modern" kicad home page for non developers. I would love to have kicad be more inviting for non devs as the website write now is quite unwelcoming for such users.

We are thinking about using a static site generator on github or similar. Then people can contribute easily via pull requests and the changes can be reviewed. By doing this, it should also be easier to compose a blog/news section collecting announcements and other things.

I myself was looking at trying pelican, because it has support for asciidoc, which is used for the new documentation, such that we can embed the documentation in the same streamlined site

Are there a possibility to organize a massive "Call for volunteers" marketing in all possible major electronics websites? I think most of them will agree if not are too tied to sponsor interests. The campaign can be difficult to manage and would require the help from some organizations. I know this is a pipe dream, but I would love it to happen.

What would EEVblog's Dave think about it?

Regards.

[nickoe]

Are there a possibility to organize a massive "Call for volunteers" marketing in all possible major electronics websites? I think most of them will agree if not are too tied to sponsor interests. The campaign can be difficult to manage and would require the help from some organizations. I know this is a pipe dream, but I would love it to happen.

What would EEVblog's Dave think about it?

Regards.

Ohh well, open source projects are always in need of usefull hands. I think that such an elaborate plan can be worked on in the meantime, but I also think that it should not initiate before the so called "release". Maybe. The reasoning is that we need focus on making that release happen, such that we have something to present to people. If lucky we could move away from the infamous bazaar VCS, which supposedly should motivate more people to contribute.

When that is said, please don't hold back.

[jsquaredz]

Good video from the KiCAD project leader showing the past, present, and future of KiCAD.  Volume is low, but in VLC I can boost to 200% to make it ok.

Its a few months old, but has a lot of good info.

http://video.fosdem.org/2015/devroom-electronic_design_automation/kicad.mp4

[Mechatrommer]

http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/.

this link no longer works... is this the new site to download the lastest source code?
https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror
is it frequently updated?

[Thor-Arne]

The new site for recent builds is www2.futureware.at/~nickoe/.

[timofonic]

http://kicad.nosoftware.cz/.

this link no longer works... is this the new site to download the lastest source code?
https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror
is it frequently updated?

Usually yes. It's a mirror from...

https://launchpad.net/kicad

They were saying about switching to Git, not sure if Github. Github is zillion times better than the messy launchpad and bzr, but they lack some services such as mailing lists.

Anyone knows the upcoming news?

Im unable to get something from commit logs, I have no.clue about programming too...

[Thor-Arne]

Users mailing list:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/

Developers mailing list:
http://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers

I don't read those though, I just check the download page for new downloads.

[ludzinc]

Yet no decent copy / paste.   

Looks like they are workign on the 'cool stuff' not he actual 'make it easy to use stuff' because that's hard and boring...

[Absolut-Lagom]

Yep.

Exactly this.

If you are hoping for UI improvements you can more or less forget it. The devs are only interested in 'cool' features.

The brain-dead user interface could be improved enormously with (relative to SPICE & push & shove) little effort. But what do we get....

Yes I know it's open source bla bla change it yourself bla bla.

Open Source != Closed To Criticism

[Kalvin]

I see that as a cool proof of concept, despite of its obvious shortcomings in the UI. It is obvious to me that the designers were not concentrated into the UI ergonomics and user experience, instead they were concentrating on the solving problem using quick & dirty prototyping in order to get their idea of the SPICE integration working.

[Macbeth]

I imagine there are so many KiCad stalwarts who have mastered all the hotkeys and have the bizarre cut'n'paste inconsistencies wired into their lizard brains that they think its a case of "if it 'aint broke don't fix it!"

So if someone even dares fix it so it works like Windows it will be deemed heresy and never accepted.

[Rerouter]

In my head the cut / paste thing could be resolved by making the rectangle selection static, then using a hotkey to move or rotate or copy, to those that have learned the hotkeys it will line up with how they treat individual components.

My understanding of software is sadly only C, so i guess i will have to throw some dollars there way, would love to see layout dependent calculations on the PCB side, e.g. import parasitics, you know the trace width, distance to ground plane, plating thickness, can specify the board material, etc, so a crude approximation could be brought in to compare one layout to another, e.g. add the RLC of a via, add the ground plane capacitance of a trace, I mention this because those parameters can be retreived using already understood math,

[filssavi]

Yet no decent copy / paste.   

Looks like they are workign on the 'cool stuff' not he actual 'make it easy to use stuff' because that's hard and boring...

I'd say all the contary instead, this has been a sort of one off feature introduced, in the V5 release that will be otherwise a lot of work under the hood to get the code in a state that can support things  like copy and paste work...

if you go read the developer mailing list  you'll notice that there is in the working a massive (and i mean really big) refactor of the eeschema codebase, to bring it up to standard, still in the 4 release (that has been pushed out when the work on the pcb editor (under the hood) has mostly been finished; AFAIK the codebase was plagued by problems like a very deep interlinking between GUI and businnes logic, few God-like objects that did really to many things and so on, obviously if the codebase is in such a poor state the best thing is to spend some time (a year or more if necessary) to get it in a state where it is workable with and then add features/improve usability, a very similar approch has been followed by the libreoffice community right after the openoffice-oracle debacle, they took their time, done the hard work (which is on the back end, non user facing code) and then moved on.

DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking in any way shape or form on behalf of the kicad team, I haven't contributed a single line of code (Lack of time and real C++ coding skills) even if the will is there, I just follow the developement process eagerly 

[technotronix]

Just thought I'd share this link to information on CERN's contribution to the development of KiCAD

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki

Not much there yet but but there a BIG plans (subject to donations-Page for donations to be added later)

http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackages

I hope it is of some interest.

David.

Great!
This is unexpected.
Thanks for updating us.