Author Topic: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?  (Read 2292 times)

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Offline technix

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How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« on: September 06, 2018, 03:22:45 pm »
My workstation just knelt at KiCad 5.0 and a moderately complicated board. The board has ~100 components, one of which is a ~400 pin processor module, and a good amount of via stitching. I feel lag when adding vias or laying down traces, the software can lock up for a few seconds. This workstation has an overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3.

My other workstation, while have adequate CPU in dual Xeon E5-2680, is lacking in graphics power with that R9 380, making 3D view a dream at most.

How demanding is it for KiCad for moderate or higher board complexity? Do I need a machine with even higher specs (for example an RX 580 or GTX 1070 in the dual Xeon E5 box)
 

Online bson

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 05:08:05 pm »
Apart from ray tracing I only ever notice a delay when I make huge schematic selections.  Never while laying traces, vias, or push-and-shove routing.  Or anything else that I can think of. And this is on a laptop (2016 MacBook Pro)...
 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 05:26:53 pm »
Apart from ray tracing I only ever notice a delay when I make huge schematic selections.  Never while laying traces, vias, or push-and-shove routing.  Or anything else that I can think of. And this is on a laptop (2016 MacBook Pro)...
What is the exact configuration of your system? My Xeon E3 system should be equivalent of an maxed out late 2013 iMac with Fusion Drive and the dual Xeon E5 system is better than the maxed out 2013 “trash can” Mac Pro.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 05:29:48 pm by technix »
 

Offline stmdude

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 07:33:53 pm »
For complex designs, 5.0 is a bit laggy, regardless of the system.

However, there's a whole bunch of performance improvements done since 5.0, so they should be part of 5.1.

It made my SBC designs go from annoyingly laggy to quite snappy. Only thing that really takes time now is to fill all zones, which on a complex multilayer board can take up to a minute.
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 08:18:21 pm »
Personally I have not felt any slow downs on my 475 component 4 layer PCB project. However i suspect it may be due to the active redraw of zones. If you have a large complex zone your routing through. Each routing node currently could be issuing a refill

i3770k cpu and a HD5850 gpu, 32GB of ram but i doubt its ram related.
 

Offline stmdude

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 08:29:41 pm »
I actually think it has to do with how many track-segments there is. It seemed a lot slower after meandering everything that needed length-matching.

This is the design I'm working on right now, without any performance-issues. I'm using the latest KiCad built from source though, so I have the performance improvements that will be part of 5.1.

 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 12:10:08 am »
I decided to throw cores at this issue. Currently I managed to get acceptable performance out of my dual Xeon machine. (It is lucky that KiCad is parallelized - should it be single threaded the E5-2680 would be significantly slower than E3-1231v3, any my way out would be at least buying a used i-4790K and an AIO liquid cooler.)

p.s. Ray tracing on the dual Xeon E5-2680 is no less than 3x faster than that on the E3-1231v3 - this task scales almost perfectly linearly. Dual E5-2680 has 4x cores as E3-1231v3 but each of the cores are about 15% slower due to a lower base clock and cores themselves being 2 generations behind.
 

Online bson

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 02:03:00 pm »
What is the exact configuration of your system? My Xeon E3 system should be equivalent of an maxed out late 2013 iMac with Fusion Drive and the dual Xeon E5 system is better than the maxed out 2013 “trash can” Mac Pro.
Model Name:   MacBook Pro
Model Identifier:   MacBookPro13,3
Processor Name:   Intel Core i7
Processor Speed:   2.9 GHz
Number of Processors:   1
Total Number of Cores:   4
L2 Cache (per Core):   256 KB
L3 Cache:   8 MB
Memory:   16 GB
Boot ROM Version:   MBP133.0238.B00

And

Chipset Model:   AMD Radeon Pro 460
  Type:   GPU
  Bus:   PCIe
  PCIe Lane Width:   x8
  VRAM (Total):   4 GB
  Vendor:   AMD (0x1002)
  Device ID:   0x67ef
  Revision ID:   0x00c0
  ROM Revision:   113-C980AF-908
  VBIOS Version:   113-C9801AU-029
  EFI Driver Version:   01.00.908
  Automatic Graphics Switching:   Supported
  gMux Version:   4.0.29 [3.2.8]
  Metal:   Supported, feature set macOS GPUFamily1 v3
  Displays:
Color LCD:
  Display Type:   Built-In Retina LCD
  Resolution:   2880 x 1800 Retina
  Framebuffer Depth:   24-Bit Color (ARGB8888)
  Main Display:   Yes
  Mirror:   Off
  Online:   Yes
  Rotation:   Supported
  Automatically Adjust Brightness:   No
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 02:04:42 pm by bson »
 

Offline hli

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 07:34:11 pm »
Did you use the performance monitoring tools of Windows? When something really _hangs_ for several seconds, in my experience the hard disk is usually the culprit (e.g. accessing the swap file, or a virus scanner deciding to stop the world doing its thing).
 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 08:29:49 pm »
What is the exact configuration of your system? My Xeon E3 system should be equivalent of an maxed out late 2013 iMac with Fusion Drive and the dual Xeon E5 system is better than the maxed out 2013 “trash can” Mac Pro.
Model Name:   MacBook Pro
Model Identifier:   MacBookPro13,3
Processor Name:   Intel Core i7
Processor Speed:   2.9 GHz
Number of Processors:   1
Total Number of Cores:   4
L2 Cache (per Core):   256 KB
L3 Cache:   8 MB
Memory:   16 GB
Boot ROM Version:   MBP133.0238.B00

And

Chipset Model:   AMD Radeon Pro 460
  Type:   GPU
  Bus:   PCIe
  PCIe Lane Width:   x8
  VRAM (Total):   4 GB
  Vendor:   AMD (0x1002)
  Device ID:   0x67ef
  Revision ID:   0x00c0
  ROM Revision:   113-C980AF-908
  VBIOS Version:   113-C9801AU-029
  EFI Driver Version:   01.00.908
  Automatic Graphics Switching:   Supported
  gMux Version:   4.0.29 [3.2.8]
  Metal:   Supported, feature set macOS GPUFamily1 v3
  Displays:
Color LCD:
  Display Type:   Built-In Retina LCD
  Resolution:   2880 x 1800 Retina
  Framebuffer Depth:   24-Bit Color (ARGB8888)
  Main Display:   Yes
  Mirror:   Off
  Online:   Yes
  Rotation:   Supported
  Automatically Adjust Brightness:   No
Core i7-6920HQ is quite a bit faster than my overclocked E3-1231v3 - about the same speed but fairly higher IPC. That Radeon Pro 460 should be on par with my GTX 1060 3GB. Do you mind posting a Cinebench R15 score?

Did you use the performance monitoring tools of Windows? When something really _hangs_ for several seconds, in my experience the hard disk is usually the culprit (e.g. accessing the swap file, or a virus scanner deciding to stop the world doing its thing).
I am on macOS, and that machine has enough SSD.
 

Offline awallin

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 10:14:26 pm »
I seem to have some OpenGL problems with a USB-C-docked laptop running win10 and Kicad 5. anyone else seen this and have a solution?
The OpenGL-graphics and also the 3D view (alt-3) doesn't work at all. Legacy graphics works but is quite slow.

thanks!
 

Offline stmdude

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2018, 12:19:31 am »
I seem to have some OpenGL problems with a USB-C-docked laptop running win10 and Kicad 5. anyone else seen this and have a solution?
The OpenGL-graphics and also the 3D view (alt-3) doesn't work at all. Legacy graphics works but is quite slow.

Might be related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1781581

(Fix for that is coming in 5.0.1)
 

Online bson

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2018, 08:40:24 am »
Do you mind posting a Cinebench R15 score?
Not at all, but it doesn't seem to run on my system:

Internal Error: String Resource not found!
The 'resource' directory seems to be corrupt or missing.


But I suspect it's more likely there's something specific about your boards (other than having internal planes or significant number of trace segments) or settings that tickles pcbnew in the wrong way...
 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2018, 02:17:19 pm »
Do you mind posting a Cinebench R15 score?
Not at all, but it doesn't seem to run on my system:

Internal Error: String Resource not found!
The 'resource' directory seems to be corrupt or missing.

Maybe try re-download it directly from Maxon?

But I suspect it's more likely there's something specific about your boards (other than having internal planes or significant number of trace segments) or settings that tickles pcbnew in the wrong way...
How do I find out?
 

Offline sethhillbrand

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2018, 09:30:37 am »
My workstation just knelt at KiCad 5.0 and a moderately complicated board. The board has ~100 components, one of which is a ~400 pin processor module, and a good amount of via stitching. I feel lag when adding vias or laying down traces, the software can lock up for a few seconds. This workstation has an overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3.

Would you be willing to share your design privately?  I'd like to ensure that we've addressed all possible performance hits.  You can pm me here or send an e-mail through my profile link.

-S
 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2018, 11:17:58 am »
My workstation just knelt at KiCad 5.0 and a moderately complicated board. The board has ~100 components, one of which is a ~400 pin processor module, and a good amount of via stitching. I feel lag when adding vias or laying down traces, the software can lock up for a few seconds. This workstation has an overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3.

Would you be willing to share your design privately?  I'd like to ensure that we've addressed all possible performance hits.  You can pm me here or send an e-mail through my profile link.

-S
I have a few open source projects that suffers from performance hits. Maybe fix those first?
 

Offline stmdude

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2018, 04:26:31 pm »
I have a few open source projects that suffers from performance hits. Maybe fix those first?

Considering that Seth is one of the KiCad developers, I'm fairly sure he'd like to fix KiCad first...
 
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Offline sethhillbrand

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2018, 03:01:57 am »
I have a few open source projects that suffers from performance hits. Maybe fix those first?

 ;D  That's fair!



Feel free to contact me via github: https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/graphs/contributors  My username is the same there as it is here.
 
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Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2018, 06:12:31 am »
Feel free to contact me via github: https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/graphs/contributors  My username is the same there as it is here.
Try this first: https://github.com/SushiBits/SushiBitsARMClassic

That project is lagging hard on my machines. I am asking around for prices on the Intel Core i7-4790K processor and AMD RX 580 8GB graphics card so I can upgrade my existing Hackintosh to something even more powerful without breaking too much of bank (that is, not going with DDR4 memory.) The current overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3 and stock speed dual Xeon E5-2680 are both suffering from bad performance.
 

Offline sethhillbrand

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2018, 06:32:38 am »
Feel free to contact me via github: https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/graphs/contributors  My username is the same there as it is here.
Try this first: https://github.com/SushiBits/SushiBitsARMClassic

That project is lagging hard on my machines. I am asking around for prices on the Intel Core i7-4790K processor and AMD RX 580 8GB graphics card so I can upgrade my existing Hackintosh to something even more powerful without breaking too much of bank (that is, not going with DDR4 memory.) The current overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3 and stock speed dual Xeon E5-2680 are both suffering from bad performance.

I have tested the linked project but do not observe any noticeable slowdown using my i7-2600 from 2011.  Your Xeon machines should be much faster.  Do I understand you correctly that you are running MacOS on the Xeon?

I will note that some aspects of KiCad run more slowly on MacOS than linux or windows due to the lack of a native OpenMP library for llvm.  Can you post the Kicad Version information from Help->About Kicad (or Apple Menu->About KiCad for MacOS)?
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2018, 09:30:13 am »
Feel free to contact me via github: https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/graphs/contributors  My username is the same there as it is here.
Try this first: https://github.com/SushiBits/SushiBitsARMClassic

That project is lagging hard on my machines. I am asking around for prices on the Intel Core i7-4790K processor and AMD RX 580 8GB graphics card so I can upgrade my existing Hackintosh to something even more powerful without breaking too much of bank (that is, not going with DDR4 memory.) The current overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3 and stock speed dual Xeon E5-2680 are both suffering from bad performance.

I loaded it into the 5.0.0-3 release of Kicad on my 2017 touch-bar MacBook Pro, 2.8 GHz quad Core i7 16 GB RAM with SSD. Zooms fine, parts move without lag, and I deleted a few traces and routed them and there was no noticeable lag or delay.

 

Offline technix

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2018, 12:48:11 pm »
Feel free to contact me via github: https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-source-mirror/graphs/contributors  My username is the same there as it is here.
Try this first: https://github.com/SushiBits/SushiBitsARMClassic

That project is lagging hard on my machines. I am asking around for prices on the Intel Core i7-4790K processor and AMD RX 580 8GB graphics card so I can upgrade my existing Hackintosh to something even more powerful without breaking too much of bank (that is, not going with DDR4 memory.) The current overclocked Xeon E3-1231v3 and stock speed dual Xeon E5-2680 are both suffering from bad performance.

I loaded it into the 5.0.0-3 release of Kicad on my 2017 touch-bar MacBook Pro, 2.8 GHz quad Core i7 16 GB RAM with SSD. Zooms fine, parts move without lag, and I deleted a few traces and routed them and there was no noticeable lag or delay.
That project has the least lag - I have a few more projects that lags even more. For those I cannot share publicly.
 

Online a59d1

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2018, 06:02:51 pm »
Try KiCAD 6.
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2018, 07:09:35 pm »
a59d1, I assume you mean the nightlies released under the 6.0.0RC name, Be aware that there may be larger bugs hiding in these, as they are development builds, the 6.0.0 is just a name they decided on, realistically its 5.0.1 or 5.1.0 alpha.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: How demanding is it to run KiCad 5?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 07:16:13 pm »
I have just tried a few projects on my machine, and it doesn't seem to lag at all, works quite well.

Processor is an i5 4950 @3.3GHz, 16GB DDR3, GF 750Ti (2GB onboard dedicated GDDR5), OpenGL mode, Windows 8.1 x64 Pro.
 


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