Author Topic: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?  (Read 66383 times)

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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2017, 08:28:49 pm »
Difficulty delegating is one of my weak points for sure. Maybe it's a Russian thing, I don't trust anyone to do things properly. Having said that I've got a number of friends that are eager to help if they can. I will definitely take advantage of that if needed.

As for hiring EEs, if you saw the state of the EE labs at Georgia Tech you might think twice about that. :p  Everything from high dollar mixed signal scopes to expensive soldering stations has at least one hole melted into the side. I've yet to meet a EE undergrad that can solder well. Just the one, actually, and he works at NASA now.

In all seriousness though I do think I could train someone up on that pretty quickly.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 08:46:27 pm by SVFeingold »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2017, 08:45:39 pm »
. I've yet to meet a EE undergrad that can solder well. Just the one, actually, and he works at NASA now.

I have had TERRIBLE experiences with degreed engineers trying to solder. There was a summer about 5 years ago we hired 4 EE students about a year from graduation - I was dumbfounded how awful they were. The worst part was that if you asked them about it - it was never their fault. It was almost always blamed on solder, the iron, the tips, the flux, barometric pressure, etc. Similar story with failed circuit design too - blamed on ESD, bad component batch, bad PCB fab, etc. These were kids that had excellent academic records too but could not actually apply any of that knowledge in a practical way. For those fresh out of school - the degree was used as a license to blame everyone else since they considered themselves the smartest people in the room.

So far, the best technician help I have seen are the ones that have had practical experience in an assembly or high-level maintenance role. It is amazing how much money can be burned up in a short period of time with a marginal person soldering. I personally don't want to spend a few days hovering over someone's shoulder to teach them how to solder well - those are the ones that quit a week later and I wasted my time training. Clearly, I have a trust issue as well. I can tolerate mistakes, but I cannot tolerate the lack of desire to do things well. Generally, a lack of desire results in constant simple mistakes.

Maybe the next time I hire a bench tech - I will simply give them a range of tasks from wiring to SMD's. The approach they take in the first 10 minutes is enough to know if they are going to be a problem.
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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2017, 08:51:18 pm »
Yep no argument there. The thing about hiring friends to do it (assuming it isn't an awkward arrangement) is that the friends I'm considering have zero soldering experience. I much prefer to train someone who comes in with no preconceived (and incorrect) notions of how to do things "right" that can be taught correctly from the ground up.

At my last job I had to scold a EE with 20 years of experience, far more than me, about tinning the iron before putting it back. And also about NOT cranking the temperature to 400C every time something would not solder properly. Don't think it stuck. We had just bought a new JBC station after my constant pestering and I wasn't about to let it get trashed.

On the other hand we have Southern Poly nearby and that is much more of a "practical" school where I would imagine people actually ARE trained how to solder well. No personal experience however.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2017, 08:55:51 pm »
At my last job I had to scold a EE with 20 years of experience, far more than me, about tinning the iron before putting it back.
Are you saying he should or shouldn't have?
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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2017, 08:58:13 pm »
Should have. Every person that used it put the iron away bone dry, and then the next time I needed to use it I had to spend a couple minutes tinning, cleaning, re-tinning, etc... until the solder would properly wet the tip.
 

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2017, 09:13:52 pm »
Should have. Every person that used it put the iron away bone dry, and then the next time I needed to use it I had to spend a couple minutes tinning, cleaning, re-tinning, etc... until the solder would properly wet the tip.
Yes of course - just the way you wrote it suggested you were telling him off because he did...
Another frequent error I saw when helping out at a soldering class is people clean it on the sponge on the way in to the stand, not the way out. People just think "I just used it, so I'll clean it now"
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Offline CM800

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2017, 09:26:12 pm »
Should have. Every person that used it put the iron away bone dry, and then the next time I needed to use it I had to spend a couple minutes tinning, cleaning, re-tinning, etc... until the solder would properly wet the tip.
Yes of course - just the way you wrote it suggested you were telling him off because he did...
Another frequent error I saw when helping out at a soldering class is people clean it on the sponge on the way in to the stand, not the way out. People just think "I just used it, so I'll clean it now"

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Offline jmelson

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #132 on: July 24, 2017, 04:48:27 am »

I have had TERRIBLE experiences with degreed engineers trying to solder. There was a summer about 5 years ago we hired 4 EE students about a year from graduation - I was dumbfounded how awful they were. The worst part was that if you asked them about it - it was never their fault. It was almost always blamed on solder, the iron, the tips, the flux, barometric pressure, etc. Similar story with failed circuit design too - blamed on ESD, bad component batch, bad PCB fab, etc. These were kids that had excellent academic records too but could not actually apply any of that knowledge in a practical way. For those fresh out of school - the degree was used as a license to blame everyone else since they considered themselves the smartest people in the room.

A good friend of mine (EE) used to say that they taught you how to analyze a circuit very well, but nobody in his class could even design a flashlight and get it to work.  Well, obviously slight exaggeration.  Another EE also said about the same thing, they taught circuit analysis, but NOBODY could teach you circuit design.  His point, not that they DIDN'T, but it CAN'T be taught.  Maybe that is also exaggeration, but I get the point, that creating a circuit from a blank slate is hard, and probably working under a mentor on real world problems is the only way to get good at this.

Anyway, yes, I only know a few people who are really good at soldering.  One who was truly good was my oldest son.  He just had the feel for the flow of the metal, heat conduction, etc.  and picked it up very quickly.  He produced uniformly good work with minimal supervision after the first day or so, and it looked just like I did it.  (And, I had 40+ years of experience at that point.)  Unfortunately, he is now a US Marine and married, so I don't get his free labor anymore.  Darn!

Jon
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #133 on: July 24, 2017, 04:52:59 am »
I couldn't design a circuit until I 'needed' to design a circuit. That is when the theory and analysis started to make sense - when I had an idea for a gadget and the extreme will to get what I wanted.

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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #134 on: July 24, 2017, 05:13:52 am »
Have to agree. I spent countless hours reading about how this components or that worked, how this theory applied, etc... Until you actually have to use it it isn't going to click.

Going through an engineering program lowered my respect for engineers rather than the opposite. I was pretty shocked. So few people I'd trust to actually give a damn about doing things properly for the sake of it, or taking initiative to learn something new. Particularly with all of the resources available, few seemed to really take the initiative. I do know a few people I'd hire in a heartbeat but they already have great jobs.

Anyway, yes, I shouldn't be running into too many issues like that yet with this project.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #135 on: July 24, 2017, 05:53:36 am »

Anyway, yes, I shouldn't be running into too many issues like that yet with this project.

Drinking from a fire hose is a reasonable analogy. It sounds like you are emotionally prepared for the unknowns that lie ahead.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #136 on: July 24, 2017, 06:45:55 am »
Should have. Every person that used it put the iron away bone dry, and then the next time I needed to use it I had to spend a couple minutes tinning, cleaning, re-tinning, etc... until the solder would properly wet the tip.

Odd.  I don't find that necessary with modern tips (Metcal specifically).  I usually wipe the tip with either brass or a damp sponge before I turn the iron off, but some say you're not even supposed to do that.  The tips stay nice and shiny either way.  I'd call it a personal preference, since it doesn't seem to affect tip longevity.

I don't use lead-free for prototyping so that might make a difference, I suppose.

Edit: Of course, I also yank the magnets out of my Metcal stands so the iron stays hot all the time, so I live in a perpetual state of soldering sin.  >:D
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 06:49:51 am by KE5FX »
 

Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2017, 07:08:52 am »
I'm sure it doesn't always cause problems but in this case it did. This was a brand new JBC station with new tips. I'd say it definitely qualifies as modern. Of course different manufacturers will have different tip metallurgy so it may be more or less of an issue. Solder type and tip temperature will have an impact as well. I've lived by the notion that the tip should always be tinned at all times. Running a tip at 400+ degC and letting it stay hot after cleaning with a brass brush is the worst of both worlds IMHO. I definitely noticed an impact on solder wetting performance after that. It may not affect the longevity of the tip, but it certainly affected the usability on a day-to-day basis.  Every iron in that place was pegged at max temperature, the concept of heat transfer > temperature is still out of reach to many.  :(

Of course if a method works then keep using it! This was just my experience.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2017, 07:47:58 am »
Why would you ever run a tip beyond 350C ?
IMO If you do, you need a higher power solder iron or a better solder iron with faster power to thermal transfer.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for &lt;$130k?
« Reply #139 on: July 24, 2017, 07:55:49 am »
Or maybe a TIG welder......

Sent from my horrible mobile....

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2017, 08:51:29 am »
 :-DD
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #141 on: July 24, 2017, 09:14:27 am »
I'm sure it doesn't always cause problems but in this case it did. This was a brand new JBC station with new tips. I'd say it definitely qualifies as modern. Of course different manufacturers will have different tip metallurgy so it may be more or less of an issue. Solder type and tip temperature will have an impact as well. I've lived by the notion that the tip should always be tinned at all times. Running a tip at 400+ degC and letting it stay hot after cleaning with a brass brush is the worst of both worlds IMHO. I definitely noticed an impact on solder wetting performance after that. It may not affect the longevity of the tip, but it certainly affected the usability on a day-to-day basis.  Every iron in that place was pegged at max temperature, the concept of heat transfer > temperature is still out of reach to many.  :(

Of course if a method works then keep using it! This was just my experience.
It's simple - if the tip is covered in solder when it's sitting for long periods , the surface of the solder oxidises, protecting the tip.
 
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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2017, 04:39:59 pm »
Why would you ever run a tip beyond 350C ?

Well I wouldn't, but I was around many that did. I even tried locking out the JBC so it wouldn't go above 350C but they'd find ways around it. If you can't get enough heat transfer on to a 1" x 2" board with a 130W JBC iron you're doing something wrong.

Anyway, back to the crux of the issue, I spoke with a Yamaha (Trans-Tec) service tech just now about the machines I'm evaluating. He's working on getting me a complete list of options and accessories included with both machines.

I have to say that even if I could get a new Samsung machine for the same price (with feeders) I'm not sure I would. It's comforting to know there are two service centers so nearby with an abundance of spare parts, nozzles, feeders, etc...

I asked about a few issues I was concerned about, namely software. I did spend some time going over the service manuals and operators manuals for both the Opal Xii and MG-8, which K&S provided on my last visit without a fuss. Definitely takes me back with the old-school XP-style GUI but hey a little nostalgia is a good thing.

On the software front, the license is perpetual (no license fees) and if for whatever reason it crashes they'll give you a USB drive with the latest version available. He wasn't sure about whether parts are still manufactured for the Opal (older machine), although for the MG-8 it sounds like they are. In both cases there should be enough spares available to last quite a while.

I'm feeling pretty good about the support front. The logistics of getting these machines installed is rather daunting. I'm going through a broker to put together the full package and arrange financing, as the client prefers to spread it out rather than taking a big hit upfront - even if it costs more in the long run.

For those of you who have shipped equipment like this, do you have any suggestions? I would like the axes to be locked down as per the service manual. I'd also like a moisture barrier on all equipment, humidity/temperature alert sensors inside the packaging, and shock sensors on each axis of each machine/crate. For machines this size the recommended sensors from ShockWatch are 25g although there are others available down to 5g. The reflow oven is quite long so I think 2 opposing arrangements of 3 sensors each should do it.

What else am I forgetting? And how the hell am I going to fit a 13' long 3500lb. reflow oven on a forklift, lengthwise?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 04:42:46 pm by SVFeingold »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2017, 07:12:29 pm »
I have to say that even if I could get a new Samsung machine for the same price (with feeders) I'm not sure I would. It's comforting to know there are two service centers so nearby with an abundance of spare parts, nozzles, feeders, etc...
Surely you would have local access to Samsung spares in the US. Its after sales service you would lack.

I've never personally used the Samsung machines, but they seem to be very popular in Asia. I've seen so many of them while visiting customers.
 

Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #144 on: July 24, 2017, 08:13:37 pm »
I agree, but in my position and without experience running these lines I think I should err on the side of having local support.

If things turn out well I will be able to get 2 PnP machines, a 2003 Opal XII and a 2007 Assembleon MG-8, along with several hundred assorted feeders, for ~$80k. I'm trying to figure if this is a good deal or not. It seems marginal although if both machines are in excellent condition and the feeders work, I think it's not so bad. Then again a brand new Samsung SM482 is $70k from Korea, but then I'll spend another $20k+ on feeders alone. It is a faster machine although not quite as flexible as the MG-8. Decisions, decisions...it seems to me I should pay the slight premium to get the support access. If it all goes well I'll be in a much better position in the future to evaluate machine purchases.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #145 on: July 24, 2017, 09:25:47 pm »
My personal opinion for how I work is that I would prefer to have more feeders over a newer machine in most cases. I keep adding feeders to my setup so that I can quickly change from one design to the next. I have about 8 boards setup simultaneously right now. The quick changeover is very helpful to me since I don't do huge batches of one setup.

Not sure what you are up against there.
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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2017, 09:31:38 pm »
My immediate concern is one setup. Even so having 5+ carts loaded with a few hundred feeders would certainly make life easier if I did need to change things out.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2017, 09:58:14 pm »

For those of you who have shipped equipment like this, do you have any suggestions? I would like the axes to be locked down as per the service manual.
You bet!  Having the head or gantry slamming from end to end during shipping will likely cause serious damage, and possibly make the machine unrepairable (bent linear rails, for instance.  I've heard horror stories.)  Also, with power and air off, the nozzles could droop, so you want the head and gantry tied in an area where there can be no contact.
Quote

 I'd also like a moisture barrier on all equipment, humidity/temperature alert sensors inside the packaging, and shock sensors on each axis of each machine/crate. For machines this size the recommended sensors from ShockWatch are 25g although there are others available down to 5g. The reflow oven is quite long so I think 2 opposing arrangements of 3 sensors each should do it.
Wow, I think you are overdoing it.  The combined tilt/shockwatch sensors are OK.  Unless you are shipping these things overseas by cargo container, I think the moisture stuff is not needed.  Do make sure it is by ENCLOSED truck, not put on a flatbed with a tarp.  You'll probably pay a bit more for that service.
Quote
What else am I forgetting? And how the hell am I going to fit a 13' long 3500lb. reflow oven on a forklift, lengthwise?
Does the oven come apart?  Seems like there would not be such a problem in making them in two sections that bolt together.  I can imagine plenty of facilities where such a long unit could be a huge problem, long hallways with corners, and elevators.  That won't fit any freight elevator I've seen in quite a while.

One thing I ran into with mine.  They didn't lock the nuts on the support feet when they loaded it into the truck.  One of the feet in the back unscrewed and bit into the truck's floor.  We had a forklift that couldn't get into the truck (no loading dock) and the P&P was against the front wall of the truck box.  No way to get back there and wind the foot back up.  We ended up using cables to drag the machine out to where we could access the foot, and bent it about 45 degrees.  I had to cut it off and fabricate a new foot.  All could have been avoided if they just locked the locking nuts on the feet after raising them.

Jon
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:02:25 pm by jmelson »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2017, 10:07:15 pm »
When I ship CNC machines - I do a sealed moisture controlled bag with a wrap. I also specify an air ride trailer which takes some of the high-frequency vibration out.

Linear ways, ball screws, and other precision surfaces can and will flash rust easily. They generally have enough grease on them, but precaution is cheap IMHO. A few years back - HAAS CNC machines started shipping this way after too many cross country trips had some moisture related issue on the other side.
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Offline SVFeingoldTopic starter

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Re: Advice on setting up a low-mid volume SMT line for <$130k?
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2017, 10:19:39 pm »
I'm not sure the reflow oven is so easy to take apart...the diagrams seem pretty intimidating.

Maybe the moisture barrier is overdoing but that depends on how it's shipped. In any case I'll gladly pay another $1k in plastic wrap and sensors for the peace of mind. I would hate for the machine to incur some sort of damage in shipping that's not obvious until after I signed off on the delivery... For sure I will study the service manuals and make a list of what to inspect once the machines arrive.

For the nozzles, I think a piece of foam placed under the heads and zip-tied to the gantry to keep them retracted would do well. Even with the axes locked I wouldn't want the heads extended as they are not really designed to be jostled in X-Y while extended. They may well be fine but again...cheap insurance.

Good tip about the feet, I'll mention that. Luckily the Yamaha service tech who just calibrated these machines can be put in touch with the logistics company to give advice on how to ship these.

As far as remaining concerns, the Heller reflow oven and MPM stencil printer I really am clueless about. I assume I can find manuals and stuff, the oven itself shouldn't be terribly complicated. Even so I haven't looked into available service nearby. I am just crossing my fingers on these, they will be demonstrated working prior to shipment but then it's on me to get those up and running.
 


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