Author Topic: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..  (Read 16711 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3137
  • Country: ca
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2018, 04:33:23 am »
One of the issues when your testing out new fabs is that if you are 'unlucky' and get a bad result from them. is that your perception of them is that its crap.  You might be unlucky and be the 1 in 100 that was problematic.     But your 'sucess' rate was 0%.     

I've never had any problems with OSHPark and I made lots of prototype boards. Always the best quality. I place solder mask 2 mil to copper and it always turns out great.
 

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2845
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2018, 07:38:46 am »
And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3781
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2018, 10:54:39 am »
And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

Did you actually raise the issue with them?
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2018, 01:49:29 pm »
A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

I think it is the normal and reasonable behavior not to give a vendor a second chance if you got burned on the first attempt. (Unless they have something unique to offer.) The goal is not to reach a reliable conclusion about vendor quality, but to get your goods delivered with good quality and minimum grief.

Look at it this way: There is a one-in-a-hundred chance that this was a one-in-a-hundred failure. So, with a rather small likelyhood, you are missing out on finding another good supplier, by not giving them a second chance. But the alternative explanation is that their failure rate is higher than desirable (although most likely not 100%). How much money and grief to you want to invest in finding out, in a situation where the vendor essentially sells a commodity, offered by many others too?
 

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3137
  • Country: ca
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2018, 02:51:03 pm »
And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

And, by pure coincidence, you're the only one who finds the quality of AllPCB boards impeccable.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3781
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2018, 04:12:07 pm »
A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

I think it is the normal and reasonable behavior not to give a vendor a second chance if you got burned on the first attempt. (Unless they have something unique to offer.) The goal is not to reach a reliable conclusion about vendor quality, but to get your goods delivered with good quality and minimum grief.

Look at it this way: There is a one-in-a-hundred chance that this was a one-in-a-hundred failure. So, with a rather small likelyhood, you are missing out on finding another good supplier, by not giving them a second chance. But the alternative explanation is that their failure rate is higher than desirable (although most likely not 100%). How much money and grief to you want to invest in finding out, in a situation where the vendor essentially sells a commodity, offered by many others too?

Sure, I understand that logic. But given OSHPark's good reputation for quality and comparing it to AllPCBs (which isn't bad by any means but it is not as good as OSHPark, IMO), that's a little bit strange, don't you think?

If their failure rate was as high as you describe they would have been out of business long time ago - they are not cheap for anything than very small boards given that they use an US fab  and they are also quite slow because it is a pooling service. Even then OSHPark has a 4.7 average rating on PCBShopper, AllPCB isn't even rated (someone tried to game the system?) and their sister fab PCBWay has 4.1 average (and also no new reviews accepted). Something doesn't compute  :-//

I have used both and whenever I need really fine pitch work and small boards I prefer to go to OSHPark - they have been pretty consistent and never had any issues with them. With the cheap Asian fabs it can be really hit and miss.
 

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2845
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2018, 01:15:58 am »
And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

And, by pure coincidence, you're the only one who finds the quality of AllPCB boards impeccable.

Not at all.   What i've found is that for "low complexity 4 layer boards"  it seems to be their sweet spot. ( 6/6 spacing, 4 layers, no trickyness ) is that they do a good job.     their 2 layer boards are 'meh'. Turns out that the 2 layer stuff is done on a differnet line.    If you get a good sales rep, your going to be ok.   get a bad one, and it turns to muck. Their business process's are marginal.    I was having a great run with the previous rep ( whos gone to have a baby ).. seems she was very actively managing her customers and 'hiding' the issues.    the new rep is very 'blah' and thats when i've started having delviery issues ( not quality ), but just stuff not getting done when they say its going to.

For me, a 2 layer pcb is a rare thing now.  It takes me considerably longer to design a 2 layer vs 4 layer. it ends up bigger generally.. the 'real' cost savings in using a 2 layer board.



On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2845
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2018, 01:21:01 am »
If their failure rate was as high as you describe they would have been out of business long time ago - they are not cheap for anything than very small boards given that they use an US fab  and they are also quite slow because it is a pooling service. Even then OSHPark has a 4.7 average rating on PCBShopper, AllPCB isn't even rated (someone tried to game the system?) and their sister fab PCBWay has 4.1 average (and also no new reviews accepted). Something doesn't compute  :-//

The real problem with any of these review sites, that take money from the companys for advertising is that you really can't be sure what is drivign things.     All pcb are shockers for bad bad spamming and dubious marketing.   

For me, speed is of the essence.  Its not hobbying. Its real work, and time delays = money cost.     One thign allpcb has done really well is mostly getting thigns out on time.  Its just when it goes wrong, that they get it *REALLY* wrong.


Quote
I have used both and whenever I need really fine pitch work and small boards I prefer to go to OSHPark - they have been pretty consistent and never had any issues with them. With the cheap Asian fabs it can be really hit and miss.

We really are spoiled for choice.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline l0wside

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 11:18:48 am »
Agree with janoc. Quality was always excellent, turnaround time ok (shipping to EU is usually the dominating factor). OSHPark has been operating under this name since 2012.

Maybe you give them another try after six years? I am only a satisfied customer, no further relation with them.
 

Offline Wilksey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1329
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 11:33:00 am »
I've always found Chinese fabs OK if you don't mind waiting for shipping, or pay for the fast shipping, most of the time the PCB's are done within 24-48 hours, the remaining 3-4 weeks is shipping from HK Post, unless you DHL it.

However, around CNY everyone will try and get their orders in before the cut off, which means that they go balls out trying to get everything done, not always the best way IMO.  So if I have anything super critical I always use a local fab house (or local in the UK), there is one called PCB Train, which is part of Newbury Electronics which I use here in the UK who do a good job, not cheap, but they will deliver, or you can go and fetch it if you are that way.
 

Offline AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4208
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2018, 08:10:24 pm »
Funnily enough, I used PCBtrain to do a simple job last week because AllPCB were on holiday.

It was at least 5x, probably 10x the price, and the quality really wasn't great. Solder mask alignment was very poor, which wasn't helpful on a board with fine pitch QFNs.

I think like most people, I wouldn't mind paying "a bit" more to use a local supplier. But not an order of magnitude more.

Offline Wilksey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1329
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2018, 11:42:20 pm »
Really? I've never had an issue with their mask alignment.

Yes they are expensive, but they provide a local service which is few and far between so they charge accordingly.

I don't know why they charge so much more, and I wouldn't personally use them for private projects, but sometimes, you need to use a service like them.
 

Offline Koen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 502
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2018, 04:19:48 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.
 

Offline TJ232

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 331
  • Country: 00
  • www.esp8266-projects.org
    • ESP8266 Projects
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2018, 08:55:45 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

Might still be crowded after the Chinese NY Holiday.

My last standard processed order looks quite OK I think:

Order Time:2018/2/27 15:26:51
Ship Time:2018/3/2 12:37:01

I've checked and is confirmed as processed on DHL website and have also received today the DHL delivery warning SMS for 2018/03/06.


ESP8266 Projects - www.esp8266-projects.org
MPDMv4 Dimmer Board available on Tindie: https://www.tindie.com/stores/next_evo1/
 

Offline saike

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 74
  • Country: gb
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2018, 08:31:47 am »
I have had a batch of boards sat in PCBWay AOI inspection stage for 3 days now. It is no big deal they are not time critical, but my previous order was 5 days from sending in the gerbers to receiving the boards here in Europe, at a total cost in dollars  of $200  including delivery. The local fabrication quote was $700 + delivery.
 

Offline TJ232

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 331
  • Country: 00
  • www.esp8266-projects.org
    • ESP8266 Projects
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2018, 06:30:04 pm »
I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

Might still be crowded after the Chinese NY Holiday.

My last standard processed order looks quite OK I think:

Order Time:2018/2/27 15:26:51
Ship Time:2018/3/2 12:37:01

I've checked and is confirmed as processed on DHL website and have also received today the DHL delivery warning SMS for 2018/03/06.

UPDATE

Actually received on: 2018/03/05.
Nothing to complain about.

Happy breadboarding,
TJ.
ESP8266 Projects - www.esp8266-projects.org
MPDMv4 Dimmer Board available on Tindie: https://www.tindie.com/stores/next_evo1/
 

Offline envisionelec

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 286
  • Country: us
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 06:37:41 pm »
I used quickturnpcb.co.kr for PCB during CNY a couple weeks ago and was very happy with the results.
 

Offline Koen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 502
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2018, 04:54:43 am »
I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.
Again. Chinese holidays were fast approaching so I thought I'd give AllPCB "faster" service another go. Online quote had the estimate shipping date as Thursday 09/27 : perfect. Estimate confirmed by email : perfect. PCBs "completed" on the morning of 09/27 according to the "progress timeline" : perfect. Now everything is closed for a week and guess what ? PCBs haven't shipped yet.
 

Offline diyaudio

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • !
  • Posts: 683
  • Country: za
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2018, 10:20:34 am »
This sounds like poor planing on your side to me, a buffer of at least 2 months is always reasonable (with CNY approaching), Imagine how many other people like you are in the queue this time of the year?. Irrespective of the delivery marketing ignore that promise its an exception to the rule. That desperate ? use your local board house pay the with the simple consequence of increased price and maybe a risk with manufacturing capabilities.

   
 

Offline sdouble

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: fr
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2018, 01:03:19 pm »
How can you work ignoring promises ?
It's little dealing ignoring the contract. ::)
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2018, 01:05:05 pm »
This sounds like poor planing on your side to me, a buffer of at least 2 months is always reasonable (with CNY approaching)   

2 months?! Chinese New Year?? You got this wrong.
 
The following users thanked this post: petert

Offline diyaudio

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • !
  • Posts: 683
  • Country: za
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2018, 09:09:52 pm »
don't count the month of December,  you left with October and November to deal with the rush queue, so make it 4 months before the time. happy now..
 
 

Offline TIOUK

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 29
  • Country: gb
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2018, 11:08:15 am »
Maybe Koen was unlucky,  I guess there were a lot of rush jobs in the last few days.  You want to try ordering an "off the shelf" , let alone bespoke item, two days before Christmas in the UK, no chance.

I have also seen the odd short delay in "storage" which I assume is the time between them being packed and the shipping info received notification from DHL. After that I'd put any delays on DHL operations.

My latest "rush job" PCB from them was ordered 2018-09-26 @ 20:46:49. It was completed on the 29th @ 17:36:04 and I received it yesterday from DHL who picked it up on the 29th @ 22:45.

This included me putting the job on hold, a result of the rush to order before the break, and sending updated gerbers, so the audit process didn't start until after the ever helpful Dana updated my files.

So due to my error, according to flow progress, the manufacture didn't start until the 28th @ 02:24 & I still received them when expected.

Somethimes it's hard to remember that there are real people, not robots (althought they're probably in the mix somewhere) behind these services and although it maybe easy to blame others, a little thought on your side and ording your PCB a day or two earlier would probably have generated a better outcome for you.
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2018, 05:56:14 pm »
don't count the month of December,  you left with October and November to deal with the rush queue, so make it 4 months before the time. happy now..

Nope. The point is that Koen's issue had nothing to do with Chinese New Year. They do have other holidays over there as well, you know... And 2 months seems excessive to me; but kodus to you for exemplary long-term planning.
 

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2845
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2018, 10:44:45 pm »
I had a bit of a 'bad' batch from Allpcb recently.   Solder mask was marginal, and i had mask where there should not have been. Made hand soldering boards quite hard.   Also had a stencil that was a bit problematic.   and one board in one panel that had a fault that was not marked off.     
Yes, the price is good, but its not perfect.   

right now, my pick for best low cost pcb fabricator probably would be JLC
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf