ALL PCB - Cheap, but at a price..

[mrpackethead]

I just got burned by Allpcb.   What i foolishly did was trust them with a time critical board.  yes, i know its CNY, but i checked with them and it was in the allocated windows.   
today, ( nearly 48 hours later ) they inform me that they can't do it, and delivery is pushed out 3 weeks.   just a

Maybe i got lucky over the previous orders,  and things have gone well..  This one ( which was really important ) has burned me badly, and i'm left with no sensible options but to order somethign at US prices.   

Product / Price is just part of the equation.   they have to deliver on time when its critical.   

Shame on them, this time.   However shame on me if i allowed it to happen again, so After a year of great results, i'm going to have to find someone else for doing my proto and small volume boards.

Upshot. Allpcb are probably ok, if you are not time sensitive, and can allow a bit of 'slop' in delivery, ideal for hobbyists.        If you need guaranteed delivery, then they are not an option.  the risk is too high.     

a $200 order going wrong may not seem like much but the kick on down the track is just trouble.   

I am not looking forward to having to tell my customers why i have not delivered on time. They wont' be interestd in what happende, they will just be grumpy at me.    We'll just have to magicllly time compress this all up.

?

[Jeroen3]

Chinese New Year

[imidis]

 

[KE5FX]

Chinese New Year

... hasn't started yet.  AllPcb has a posted schedule. 

I know this because I just sent them a time-sensitive order today. 

[jeremy]

To be fair, I can tell this exact same story for both allpcb and pcbway. Not CNY related, just “I paid $300 for 24h turnaround, I got 5 days which is worth $5. Only $40 refund after getting very grumpy with their support”. IMO, for the really fast boards you have to go with the non-chinese board houses unfortunately.

Edit: you’re in NZ, circuitlabs is my go-to emergency board supplier. Only time they have ever been late (by 1 day) is because the DHL plane broke down.

[AndyC_772]

I know this because I just sent them a time-sensitive order today. 

Me too. Very simple, two layer board, which normally they'd turn around in 24 hrs. Fingers crossed they make it onto the plane before everyone goes home!

[racemaniac]

Over at the stm32duino forum we're also eagerly awaiting a first prototype of a board we're making
also sent in to allpcb last weekend so we still get it before chinese new year .

if everybody is doing that, i can imagine them not being able to make it for all orders... (but ofcourse then they should say so upfront)

[Yansi]

Sorry, not trying to offend, but sending your time critical boards a week before CNY, is a stupid move. That is not fault of the Chinese guys, that is your fault of not evaluating possible problems before ordering. Next time, please think critical first, before doing something.

If you are doing something time critical for your valuable customers, then I would expect a respective price for that - i.e. to use a local manufacturer, that will cost $800 for a 48h turnaround instead of $240, but it will be done. If you have such customers, that can't wait, then they should expect to pay for their "hurry".

[GreggD]

I just now got notice that my 100 boards are in DHLs hands.

Now at Cincinatti Ohio DHL customs.

[AndyC_772]

It is unwise to draw conclusions from incomplete infomation.

[ebastler]

It is unwise to draw conclusions from incomplete infomation.

... which makes it difficult to respond to your rather terse message. 

[mrpackethead]

Sorry, not trying to offend, but sending your time critical boards a week before CNY, is a stupid move. That is not fault of the Chinese guys, that is your fault of not evaluating possible problems before ordering. Next time, please think critical first, before doing something.

I knew it was CNY. I made a point of checking in with them, and asking if it coudl be done.    Yes Yes Yes it can be done.    So, i paid the bill, got a delivery date that was fine.  Two days later they are telling me that they can't do it any more.      In this case, yes, perhaps it was a little foolish.   But i double checked and all was fine.      All they would have had to to is say 'no'. and i would have ordered from someone else.       ( or readjusted my schedule ).    but based on their committment..

its a question of trust.

[Bassman59]

To be fair, I can tell this exact same story for both allpcb and pcbway. Not CNY related, just “I paid $300 for 24h turnaround, I got 5 days which is worth $5. Only $40 refund after getting very grumpy with their support”.

I use an American Express credit card for these sorts of orders, and Amex really goes to bat for the customer. If the vendor blew the delivery like that, I'd initiate a dispute with Amex and get the amount paid for the expedited service refunded. Amex will turn that around in a couple of days.

[mrpackethead]

To be fair, I can tell this exact same story for both allpcb and pcbway. Not CNY related, just “I paid $300 for 24h turnaround, I got 5 days which is worth $5. Only $40 refund after getting very grumpy with their support”.

I use an American Express credit card for these sorts of orders, and Amex really goes to bat for the customer. If the vendor blew the delivery like that, I'd initiate a dispute with Amex and get the amount paid for the expedited service refunded. Amex will turn that around in a couple of days.

to be fair in this case, Allpcb refunded me very quickly in full. so no complaints there.

[jeremy]

To be fair, I can tell this exact same story for both allpcb and pcbway. Not CNY related, just “I paid $300 for 24h turnaround, I got 5 days which is worth $5. Only $40 refund after getting very grumpy with their support”.

I use an American Express credit card for these sorts of orders, and Amex really goes to bat for the customer. If the vendor blew the delivery like that, I'd initiate a dispute with Amex and get the amount paid for the expedited service refunded. Amex will turn that around in a couple of days.

to be fair in this case, Allpcb refunded me very quickly in full. so no complaints there.

Yeah, I should have pushed them harder, but I had much more pressing things to do at the time as you can probably imagine

[KE5FX]

I know this because I just sent them a time-sensitive order today. 

Me too. Very simple, two layer board, which normally they'd turn around in 24 hrs. Fingers crossed they make it onto the plane before everyone goes home!

AllPcb: No dice.  Reportedly, their machines went "down for maintenance" at the last minute.  Order was refunded.  The story is longer, but suffice it to say they lived up (i.e., down) to expectations as the absolute cheapest solution possible.

WellPcb: AllPcb's job was actually to serve as an inexpensive hedge against the possibility that WellPcb would drop the ball on my order.  As it turned out, the boards from WellPcb shipped in time for the CNY cutoff.  They look great.

[mrpackethead]

At the price of PCBs, you coudl probably order from two companys in the hope that one does a great job.    I dont' think that they udnerstand the 'cost' in PCB's is not what they charge me.  The cost of pcbs ( espec prototype ones, ) is when they dnt' arrive when they need to, or are not up to spec.

Whats annoying is that i've actually had really good quality from Allpcb.  I do lots of 4 layer boards and they have done a great job qualiyt wise.  The problems always been around logistics, payment, freight, generally being organised.

[KE5FX]

Right, that's what I meant -- I was nervous about the upcoming holiday so I ordered the same boards from both.

I just wish someone in the US would try to compete with these guys in the prototyping sector.  I would probably pay 2x the typical Shenzhen pricing for a reliable US-based vendor with modern capabilities and a working website. 

The trouble is, US-based companies want more like 5x the Chinese pricing.  They also bitch, moan, and upcharge liberally if I use design rules that were common industry practice 10+ years ago.  At that point it's impossible to avoid feeling like I'm being robbed. 

[l0wside]

Depending on the size of your board, you might want to try OSH Park.

[KE5FX]

Depending on the size of your board, you might want to try OSH Park.

I've used them before, back when they were called BatchPCB.  They work well, but the delivery times for any sort of batching service are often prohibitive for professional work.  Especially when you're talking 4+ layer boards.  When I was using BatchPCB, it sometimes took more than 30 days for them to get enough orders to do a 4-layer panel. 

More recently I've dealt with OSH Stencils, but I'm not sure if they're affiliated.  Very good quality and pricing, I definitely recommend those guys.

[mrpackethead]

Depending on the size of your board, you might want to try OSH Park.

Found the quality ot be pretty marginal.

[janoc]

Depending on the size of your board, you might want to try OSH Park.

Found the quality ot be pretty marginal.

OSH Park? That's the first time I hear someone complaining about their quality - they are quite a bit above the cheap Chinese fabs. What problems did you have?

[mrpackethead]

Mask registration was well off.

[NorthGuy]

Mask registration was well off.

Never had this problem with them. Can you post a picture?

[mrpackethead]

Mask registration was well off.

Never had this problem with them. Can you post a picture?

Was quite some time ago, dont' have them any longer. Was a prototype board, will be long gone from being around here.

One of the issues when your testing out new fabs is that if you are 'unlucky' and get a bad result from them. is that your perception of them is that its crap.  You might be unlucky and be the 1 in 100 that was problematic.     But your 'sucess' rate was 0%.     

[NorthGuy]

One of the issues when your testing out new fabs is that if you are 'unlucky' and get a bad result from them. is that your perception of them is that its crap.  You might be unlucky and be the 1 in 100 that was problematic.     But your 'sucess' rate was 0%.     

I've never had any problems with OSHPark and I made lots of prototype boards. Always the best quality. I place solder mask 2 mil to copper and it always turns out great.

[mrpackethead]

And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

[janoc]

And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

Did you actually raise the issue with them?

[ebastler]

A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

I think it is the normal and reasonable behavior not to give a vendor a second chance if you got burned on the first attempt. (Unless they have something unique to offer.) The goal is not to reach a reliable conclusion about vendor quality, but to get your goods delivered with good quality and minimum grief.

Look at it this way: There is a one-in-a-hundred chance that this was a one-in-a-hundred failure. So, with a rather small likelyhood, you are missing out on finding another good supplier, by not giving them a second chance. But the alternative explanation is that their failure rate is higher than desirable (although most likely not 100%). How much money and grief to you want to invest in finding out, in a situation where the vendor essentially sells a commodity, offered by many others too?

[NorthGuy]

And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

And, by pure coincidence, you're the only one who finds the quality of AllPCB boards impeccable.

[janoc]

A one off freak failure can always happen. But to conclude that the fab is crap from a sample of one really takes guts ...

I think it is the normal and reasonable behavior not to give a vendor a second chance if you got burned on the first attempt. (Unless they have something unique to offer.) The goal is not to reach a reliable conclusion about vendor quality, but to get your goods delivered with good quality and minimum grief.

Look at it this way: There is a one-in-a-hundred chance that this was a one-in-a-hundred failure. So, with a rather small likelyhood, you are missing out on finding another good supplier, by not giving them a second chance. But the alternative explanation is that their failure rate is higher than desirable (although most likely not 100%). How much money and grief to you want to invest in finding out, in a situation where the vendor essentially sells a commodity, offered by many others too?

Sure, I understand that logic. But given OSHPark's good reputation for quality and comparing it to AllPCBs (which isn't bad by any means but it is not as good as OSHPark, IMO), that's a little bit strange, don't you think?

If their failure rate was as high as you describe they would have been out of business long time ago - they are not cheap for anything than very small boards given that they use an US fab  and they are also quite slow because it is a pooling service. Even then OSHPark has a 4.7 average rating on PCBShopper, AllPCB isn't even rated (someone tried to game the system?) and their sister fab PCBWay has 4.1 average (and also no new reviews accepted). Something doesn't compute 

I have used both and whenever I need really fine pitch work and small boards I prefer to go to OSHPark - they have been pretty consistent and never had any issues with them. With the cheap Asian fabs it can be really hit and miss.

[mrpackethead]

And the one and only i tryed was unusable.  Luck of the draw huh.

And, by pure coincidence, you're the only one who finds the quality of AllPCB boards impeccable.

Not at all.   What i've found is that for "low complexity 4 layer boards"  it seems to be their sweet spot. ( 6/6 spacing, 4 layers, no trickyness ) is that they do a good job.     their 2 layer boards are 'meh'. Turns out that the 2 layer stuff is done on a differnet line.    If you get a good sales rep, your going to be ok.   get a bad one, and it turns to muck. Their business process's are marginal.    I was having a great run with the previous rep ( whos gone to have a baby ).. seems she was very actively managing her customers and 'hiding' the issues.    the new rep is very 'blah' and thats when i've started having delviery issues ( not quality ), but just stuff not getting done when they say its going to.

For me, a 2 layer pcb is a rare thing now.  It takes me considerably longer to design a 2 layer vs 4 layer. it ends up bigger generally.. the 'real' cost savings in using a 2 layer board.

[mrpackethead]

If their failure rate was as high as you describe they would have been out of business long time ago - they are not cheap for anything than very small boards given that they use an US fab  and they are also quite slow because it is a pooling service. Even then OSHPark has a 4.7 average rating on PCBShopper, AllPCB isn't even rated (someone tried to game the system?) and their sister fab PCBWay has 4.1 average (and also no new reviews accepted). Something doesn't compute 

The real problem with any of these review sites, that take money from the companys for advertising is that you really can't be sure what is drivign things.     All pcb are shockers for bad bad spamming and dubious marketing.   

For me, speed is of the essence.  Its not hobbying. Its real work, and time delays = money cost.     One thign allpcb has done really well is mostly getting thigns out on time.  Its just when it goes wrong, that they get it *REALLY* wrong.

I have used both and whenever I need really fine pitch work and small boards I prefer to go to OSHPark - they have been pretty consistent and never had any issues with them. With the cheap Asian fabs it can be really hit and miss.

We really are spoiled for choice.

[l0wside]

Agree with janoc. Quality was always excellent, turnaround time ok (shipping to EU is usually the dominating factor). OSHPark has been operating under this name since 2012.

Maybe you give them another try after six years? I am only a satisfied customer, no further relation with them.

[Wilksey]

I've always found Chinese fabs OK if you don't mind waiting for shipping, or pay for the fast shipping, most of the time the PCB's are done within 24-48 hours, the remaining 3-4 weeks is shipping from HK Post, unless you DHL it.

However, around CNY everyone will try and get their orders in before the cut off, which means that they go balls out trying to get everything done, not always the best way IMO.  So if I have anything super critical I always use a local fab house (or local in the UK), there is one called PCB Train, which is part of Newbury Electronics which I use here in the UK who do a good job, not cheap, but they will deliver, or you can go and fetch it if you are that way.

[AndyC_772]

Funnily enough, I used PCBtrain to do a simple job last week because AllPCB were on holiday.

It was at least 5x, probably 10x the price, and the quality really wasn't great. Solder mask alignment was very poor, which wasn't helpful on a board with fine pitch QFNs.

I think like most people, I wouldn't mind paying "a bit" more to use a local supplier. But not an order of magnitude more.

[Wilksey]

Really? I've never had an issue with their mask alignment.

Yes they are expensive, but they provide a local service which is few and far between so they charge accordingly.

I don't know why they charge so much more, and I wouldn't personally use them for private projects, but sometimes, you need to use a service like them.

[Koen]

I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

[TJ232]

I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

Might still be crowded after the Chinese NY Holiday.

My last standard processed order looks quite OK I think:

Order Time:2018/2/27 15:26:51
Ship Time:2018/3/2 12:37:01

I've checked and is confirmed as processed on DHL website and have also received today the DHL delivery warning SMS for 2018/03/06.

[saike]

I have had a batch of boards sat in PCBWay AOI inspection stage for 3 days now. It is no big deal they are not time critical, but my previous order was 5 days from sending in the gerbers to receiving the boards here in Europe, at a total cost in dollars  of $200  including delivery. The local fabrication quote was $700 + delivery.

[TJ232]

I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

Might still be crowded after the Chinese NY Holiday.

My last standard processed order looks quite OK I think:

Order Time:2018/2/27 15:26:51
Ship Time:2018/3/2 12:37:01

I've checked and is confirmed as processed on DHL website and have also received today the DHL delivery warning SMS for 2018/03/06.

UPDATE

Actually received on: 2018/03/05.
Nothing to complain about.

Happy breadboarding,
TJ.

[envisionelec]

I used quickturnpcb.co.kr for PCB during CNY a couple weeks ago and was very happy with the results.

[Koen]

I'm starting to wonder if the "production progress timeline" is rigged. I have a 48h order "complete" since 02/28 and yet, it won't ship before 03/05. Looking back at my previous orders, nearly all were shipped two-four days after their "complete" time with various excuses.

Again. Chinese holidays were fast approaching so I thought I'd give AllPCB "faster" service another go. Online quote had the estimate shipping date as Thursday 09/27 : perfect. Estimate confirmed by email : perfect. PCBs "completed" on the morning of 09/27 according to the "progress timeline" : perfect. Now everything is closed for a week and guess what ? PCBs haven't shipped yet.

[diyaudio]

This sounds like poor planing on your side to me, a buffer of at least 2 months is always reasonable (with CNY approaching), Imagine how many other people like you are in the queue this time of the year?. Irrespective of the delivery marketing ignore that promise its an exception to the rule. That desperate ? use your local board house pay the with the simple consequence of increased price and maybe a risk with manufacturing capabilities.

   

[sdouble]

How can you work ignoring promises ?
It's little dealing ignoring the contract.

[ebastler]

This sounds like poor planing on your side to me, a buffer of at least 2 months is always reasonable (with CNY approaching)   

2 months?! Chinese New Year?? You got this wrong.

[diyaudio]

don't count the month of December,  you left with October and November to deal with the rush queue, so make it 4 months before the time. happy now..
 

[TIOUK]

Maybe Koen was unlucky,  I guess there were a lot of rush jobs in the last few days.  You want to try ordering an "off the shelf" , let alone bespoke item, two days before Christmas in the UK, no chance.

I have also seen the odd short delay in "storage" which I assume is the time between them being packed and the shipping info received notification from DHL. After that I'd put any delays on DHL operations.

My latest "rush job" PCB from them was ordered 2018-09-26 @ 20:46:49. It was completed on the 29th @ 17:36:04 and I received it yesterday from DHL who picked it up on the 29th @ 22:45.

This included me putting the job on hold, a result of the rush to order before the break, and sending updated gerbers, so the audit process didn't start until after the ever helpful Dana updated my files.

So due to my error, according to flow progress, the manufacture didn't start until the 28th @ 02:24 & I still received them when expected.

Somethimes it's hard to remember that there are real people, not robots (althought they're probably in the mix somewhere) behind these services and although it maybe easy to blame others, a little thought on your side and ording your PCB a day or two earlier would probably have generated a better outcome for you.

[ebastler]

don't count the month of December,  you left with October and November to deal with the rush queue, so make it 4 months before the time. happy now..

Nope. The point is that Koen's issue had nothing to do with Chinese New Year. They do have other holidays over there as well, you know... And 2 months seems excessive to me; but kodus to you for exemplary long-term planning.

[mrpackethead]

I had a bit of a 'bad' batch from Allpcb recently.   Solder mask was marginal, and i had mask where there should not have been. Made hand soldering boards quite hard.   Also had a stencil that was a bit problematic.   and one board in one panel that had a fault that was not marked off.     
Yes, the price is good, but its not perfect.   

right now, my pick for best low cost pcb fabricator probably would be JLC

[Yansi]

I just can't understand why there is so much noise here around, that Chinese PCBs that cost almost nothing are not state of the art quality.

If you that much need state of the art quality, use different suitable manufacturer and don't be a skinflint.

[mrpackethead]

Because a dollar i dont' spend is a dollar i can use to fund my grandchildrens university education?   <insert whatever you are spending your money on>

[brabus]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

As they say: to make money you have to spend money.

[NorthGuy]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Contrary to popular belief, spending more money doesn't automatically solve problems.

[brabus]

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Contrary to popular belief, spending more money doesn't automatically solve problems.

I would be glad if you took the time to point out where I said that. Thank you.

Also, the original topic demonstrated exactly what I stated.

[NorthGuy]

I would be glad if you took the time to point out where I said that. Thank you.

I probably misunderstood something. What exactly did you say other than spending more money now is the way of avoiding future disasters? Here's the exact citation:

No, the dollar you don't spend now may become the 100 dollars you will have to spend next month, trying to fix the issues caused by that one dollar you believed was saved.

Also, the original topic demonstrated exactly what I stated.

Not in a slightest. If the OP used the most overpriced US-based company, there still would be a possibility that the order gets screwed up.

[brabus]

The whole thing starts from the comment of Yansi:

I just can't understand why there is so much noise here around, that Chinese PCBs that cost almost nothing are not state of the art quality.
If you that much need state of the art quality, use different suitable manufacturer

This is the point: if you choose the absolute cheapest supplier around, you should wonder where is the hidden price in this choice.
Understanding the logic of ALLPCB helps: they try to spam as much as possible, offering dirt cheap prices, hoping for a big order to come. As soon as a customer finally decides to order 100,000$ of stuff, they relocate all their production lines for this single customer (they cannot screw it up, can they?), exposing smaller fishes (like, unfortunately, mrpackethead) to unforeseen delays.

mrpackethead may complain and they may lose him as a customer, but the risk makes sense: they assume he will likely never place an order of 100,000$ or more.
They are also not interested in time-critical stuff: if they delay your small-ish order by a couple of weeks, it's your problem, noth theirs.
mrpackethead trusted them when they said they could make it: that was a mistake. They don't give a **** about it. If they make it, good for you, otherwise they just refund you. From their perspective, there is no risk in that, is there?

On the other hand, if you choose a manufacturer that suits your needs, the price will be likely higher, but you definitely get what you pay for: not only cutting edge quality, packaging, moisture control, documentation (I dare you to obtain all the docs for a CE certification from ALLPCB); but also reliable timing and, most important, something priceless: trust.
Keep it in mind: I am not blaming ALLPCB, they just have a different business model and they are not interested in building a trustworthy relationship with any customer - only the revenue counts.

Choosing a manufacturer is definitely delicate: throwing money at stuff doesn't make it work, but saving every penny at all cost doesn't really work either.
This is especially valid if you work on small numbers.

[NorthGuy]

If they make it, good for you, otherwise they just refund you. From their perspective, there is no risk in that, is there?

Look at the mathematics of this. If a company has 10% margin, every dissatisfied customer being refunded negates the profit received from other 9 customers. They must have satisfaction rate above 90%, or they lose money, and you won't see them on the market any more. The fact that they still manage to exist, is a proof that they do care about customers.

On the other hand, if a company has 60% margin, they can refund every second customer and they still make money. Thus, worrying about customer satisfaction is not something vitally important for them.

Bushing low-margin companies, or the judgements based on geographical origin (such as Chinese is bad), is totally un-grounded and counter-productive.

[Pinkus]

I am running a few new prototypes of a H-bridge running a 400W motor.
As these are prototypes (and also the whole system) are not stable nor thoroughly developed, sometimes a Mosfet decides to die. This might be too much current, heat or to high voltage during breaking, maybe wrong death-timing etc.. It does not matter here, all that matters is that sometimes a MOSFet dies and bursts.

I now noticed something I need to check further: Two of three PCBs of AllPCB started to burn after this incidence. Not just smoke... flames!
All prototype PCBs, produced previously at an European manufacturer, did never burn or even smoke (just the Mosfet did smoke and its legs were literally welded with the PCB, but the PCB never showed any problem).
I need to do further investigation but right now I am very suspicious regarding AllPCB PCBs. At least I will run some dedicated burning test with some AllPCB PCBs soon.
You know, if a part of a PCB turns into coal due to heat - no problem at all - thats normal. But if it starts burning ... this makes me nervous.
Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

[helius]

Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

The standard is UL 94.
Most PCBs are tested to 94V-0 and this is included in the stencil by the board house.

[brabus]

Look at the mathematics of this. If a company has 10% margin, every dissatisfied customer being refunded negates the profit received from other 9 customers. They must have satisfaction rate above 90%, or they lose money, and you won't see them on the market any more. The fact that they still manage to exist, is a proof that they do care about customers.

I don't think I follow the mathematics. There is loss if they actually produced/shipped something and also refunded the customer. But if they plainly refund the order without producing anything, they just lose the potential 10% margin.
On the other hand, the low-margin logic works great if you sistematically prioritize the customers who pay most. Losing 10% on a 500$ order in order to win 10% on a 50.000$ order definitely makes sense.

Bushing low-margin companies, or the judgements based on geographical origin (such as Chinese is bad), is totally un-grounded and counter-productive.

I feel there is a communication issue here. I am not bushing AllPCB, in fact I actually am a reasonably happy customer of them.
I definitely choose them if their service fits my needs, such as small runs, prototype boards, quick and cheap solutions for personal use, so if something gets screwed up I don't really care much.
Apart from that, facts are facts (see the adventure of mrpackethead, or my similar experience with them) and deserve sensible interpretation.

My experience helped me understand their model: I had to make a run of about 100 assembled boards, and asked AllPCB for a quote. It took some time, so I wrote an email the week after; the guy told me that I would have the offer the next day. Nothing came, so I went to MacroFab instead. I probably spent more, but I had my boards in time.

The experience with MacroFab was also not 100% smooth, but I had great help from the team and managed to have everything on time.

[thm_w]

I now noticed something I need to check further: Two of three PCBs of AllPCB started to burn after this incidence. Not just smoke... flames!
All prototype PCBs, produced previously at an European manufacturer, did never burn or even smoke (just the Mosfet did smoke and its legs were literally welded with the PCB, but the PCB never showed any problem).
I need to do further investigation but right now I am very suspicious regarding AllPCB PCBs. At least I will run some dedicated burning test with some AllPCB PCBs soon.
You know, if a part of a PCB turns into coal due to heat - no problem at all - thats normal. But if it starts burning ... this makes me nervous.
Is there an industry standard? If you have any information about what a PCB should bear, please point me there. Thanks

Please update and provide video/photos if you find something, thanks.

[NorthGuy]

I don't think I follow the mathematics. There is loss if they actually produced/shipped something and also refunded the customer. But if they plainly refund the order without producing anything, they just lose the potential 10% margin.

Most of dissatisfaction occurs when the product is shipped and received. Expenses, on the other hand, start building up from the very beginning, as soon as they paid a worker to look at your Gerbers.

On the other hand, the low-margin logic works great if you sistematically prioritize the customers who pay most. Losing 10% on a 500$ order in order to win 10% on a 50.000$ order definitely makes sense.

This is a different kind of mathematics, or physics if you would. They have a capacity to produce only so much. If they get more orders than the capacity, they will have to cancel or postpone orders. This can happen to any company, even to a company which utilizes only 20% of capacity and suddenly gets few big orders. I don't see anything unusual in this.

[mrpackethead]

I just wnated to say, that probabl this was a unwarranted rant by me. I was really annoyed that the order that was critical was messed up by CNY.    Its an issue with dealing with China, and probably i should have known better.     They have subsquently looked after me well,  and i've made lots of orders from them.     

But at the time, it seems like end of the world.  In the big picture.. meh.

[perieanuo]

Haha,time-crytical for research?time crytical is for firemans, police and so on.research is not.tell your boss to organise his time and take account for things like this.
Respecting the client means to respect the timings for delivery, you have to put safety margins here.if you're not, you're just another amateur.
And course you didn't expect smallest price to give largest quality satisfaction, gives only biggest financial one.
Pierre


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk

[niner_007]

they did great by me, I always do 2 layers with them, nothing that special, some communication problems sometimes but solved quickly; if you got something more elaborate, don't assume a PCB house can do even if they say they can, try first

[Sivers]

Hello, friends.
Tell me where you can order simple one-sided and double-sided printed circuit boards in China. I am not interested in prototypes, I need panels with a total area of ​​ten square meters at an inexpensive price.