ALLPCB - Total Lack of Care with Customer Data/Informatio.

[mrpackethead]

The sales rep in a bid to try to convince me that there new pcb fab is fantastic sent me some photos.

One of the photos they sent me clearly showed the customers logos, details etc.     It was a pcb from the well known retailer sparkfun.com.. Who knoes what they have done with my stuff, or anyones stuff.  Way too risky.  I wont' post the pics here publically.

This is totally unaceptable in my mind.

Be aware that these are the same people that run pcbway.com

I have been suckered in..  and totally done in.  Was about to order 10,000 pces of a pcb, after testing the prototypes and now they dont' want to do it..

The worst part of this, other than it seriously impacting my business now that i will have to find another manufacuter ( theres lots of htem, but it all takes time, and i'll need to do several test runs etc etc ), is that I recommended these people to others..

These guys dont' care about customers... at all.    Whats a real shame is that they did a really good job on their product.

[X]

If they are normally doing a good job, have you tried speaking to a higher-up who is responsible for such confidentiality issues? Be sure to provide exact details to them, so that they have a chance to give you a satisfactory response. If there was no such information that would otherwise be hidden from public view, those customers may have given them express permission to use their logos (or other details) in their advertising.

I can appreciate you not making such details public, but without pictures or other details here it is difficult to comment on what is going on.

EDIT: Some of the behaviour you mention appears consistent with what this thread mentions.

[janekm]

Given that most of what Sparkfun sell is Open Hardware, are you sure this isn't just an open hardware PCB they ran as a demo (or for another client)? Obviously they should have removed the Sparkfun logo in that case but that's a common enough oversight... And an open hardware PCB is not exactly private information is it?

[mrpackethead]

They were on shared panel pcbs that contained lots of panels.. Who knows what it was. Clearly they dont' care about customer data.

[janekm]

They were on shared panel pcbs that contained lots of panels.. Who knows what it was. Clearly they dont' care about customer data.

Fair enough. Be aware that it is very common practice for Chinese PCB factories to show off PCBs they made for other customers, so if this is an issue for you it's worth putting into the contract before you order. Obviously rules out cheap prototyping factories.

[mrpackethead]

Given that most of what Sparkfun sell is Open Hardware, are you sure this isn't just an open hardware PCB they ran as a demo (or for another client)? Obviously they should have removed the Sparkfun logo in that case but that's a common enough oversight... And an open hardware PCB is not exactly private information is it?

even it it was opensource, i woudl be quite annoyed with all my supply chain information being made avaialble to the mass'es.

[X]

Given that most of what Sparkfun sell is Open Hardware, are you sure this isn't just an open hardware PCB they ran as a demo (or for another client)? Obviously they should have removed the Sparkfun logo in that case but that's a common enough oversight... And an open hardware PCB is not exactly private information is it?

even it it was opensource, i woudl be quite annoyed with all my supply chain information being made avaialble to the mass'es.

The only time I may be annoyed with such a situation would be if I was doing something shady and trying to cover up my tracks. As I mentioned earlier, these customers may have provided their permission for this to occur, or it may have been a contract term somebody missed.
And unless the PCB panel contained an exhaustive BOM with supplier information on it, I doubt this exposed all of the supply chain information. At least now we know SparkFun does (or did) use ALLPCB.

Again, not defending the actions of ALLPCB and I can see why this concerns you, but you haven't provided enough detail here that supports your case.

[mrpackethead]

It woudl be dubious of me to post the photos would'nt it..   

Keeping your supply chain details quiet, is not being dubious.. Its a matter of loose lips sink ships..     

[voltsandjolts]

You have been posting your own supply chain info (for PCBs at least) on several forums threads, so does seem odd to me that you attack them on this angle.
I get that they have annoyed you and welcome your feedback but if you go too far it does start to sound like sour grapes.

[mrpackethead]

You have been posting your own supply chain info (for PCBs at least) on several forums threads, so does seem odd to me that you attack them on this angle.

Yes.  Keywords.. "You" and Y"ours"....     Totally my choice..    If my suppliers did that to me, without permission,  then i'd be exteremely annoyed..  Several of our customers explictly demand we never reveal what business we do with them.


I get that they have annoyed you and welcome your feedback but if you go too far it does start to sound like sour grapes.


[/quote]

[X]

It woudl be dubious of me to post the photos would'nt it..   

Keeping your supply chain details quiet, is not being dubious.. Its a matter of loose lips sink ships..     

There is nothing dubious about posting evidence to support your claim, or elaborating on details. Nobody has requested that you post confidential information on a public forum. My request is for, at least, the type of details that are visible. Perhaps even pics with the details you are concerned with blocked out (replaced with a description of what was contained perhaps)?

You mention they clearly showed "the customers logos, details etc." but don't elaborate on what details were shown that could be confidential. Then you say the PCB was from SparkFun, whose products are mainly open-source hardware.
Give SparkFun a buzz and see if they're alright with it. They might appreciate you bringing this up especially if they expected this to be confidential.

You have been posting your own supply chain info (for PCBs at least) on several forums threads, so does seem odd to me that you attack them on this angle.
I get that they have annoyed you and welcome your feedback but if you go too far it does start to sound like sour grapes.

It appears the OP is annoyed at the way in which ALLPCB brags by carelessly sharing pictures of panels containing info about other customers. That is understandable but there is not enough info about what details were exposed. The customers may have given ALLPCB permission to divulge this too, but this hasn't been communicated clearly (typical of many Chinese manufacturers).
But until there is elaboration on what details were shared, it's difficult to say that these actions were negligent. What could be a trade secret, or even confidential, on a panel of SparkFun PCBs? Standards markings (eg. "UL-94V"), date/time/revision, some alignment holes, test points?

[mrpackethead]

There is nothing dubious about posting evidence to support your claim, or elaborating on details. Nobody has requested that you post confidential information on a public forum. My request is for, at least, the type of details that are visible. Perhaps even pics with the details you are concerned with blocked out (replaced with a description of what was contained perhaps)?

Theres the logo, product name.. Interestingly its not a product that is on their web site currently.. It could be something new perhaps?       I'm not going to post the photo..

You mention they clearly showed "the customers logos, details etc." but don't elaborate on what details were shown that could be confidential. Then you say the PCB was from SparkFun, whose products are mainly open-source hardware.

Just because its opensoruce or will be opensource does'nt mean that its not confidental, and they are waiting on releasting it..

Give SparkFun a buzz and see if they're alright with it. They might appreciate you bringing this up especially if they expected this to be confidential.

Yeah, good idea.

[JPortici]

Given that most of what Sparkfun sell is Open Hardware, are you sure this isn't just an open hardware PCB they ran as a demo (or for another client)? Obviously they should have removed the Sparkfun logo in that case but that's a common enough oversight... And an open hardware PCB is not exactly private information is it?

even it it was opensource, i woudl be quite annoyed with all my supply chain information being made avaialble to the mass'es.

The only time I may be annoyed with such a situation would be if I was doing something shady and trying to cover up my tracks. As I mentioned earlier, these customers may have provided their permission for this to occur, or it may have been a contract term somebody missed.
And unless the PCB panel contained an exhaustive BOM with supplier information on it, I doubt this exposed all of the supply chain information. At least now we know SparkFun does (or did) use ALLPCB.

Again, not defending the actions of ALLPCB and I can see why this concerns you, but you haven't provided enough detail here that supports your case.

scenario #1:
imagine you have a competitor that would do anything to impact your sales / gain intel. they manage to find out who produces your hardware, which are people that are already giving away sensitive data. good luck sueing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow.

scenario #2:
imagine you are an OEM and/or you have a couple of major disitrbutors. you sell them your product for X times something, then they sell it to the end customer for X times something times something else. Your distributors find out who produces your hardware and they decide to cut you off. good luck suing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow

this is how i see it, nothing shady.

[mrpackethead]

scenario #1:
imagine you have a competitor that would do anything to impact your sales / gain intel. they manage to find out who produces your hardware, which are people that are already giving away sensitive data. good luck sueing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow.

Yes, no point  even trying and I don't think you have a chance to do so.     Competition does breed bad behavior.. In this case,   I don't think there was a deliberate intent to disclose information, but what it shows is a deep disregard to keeping clients information confidential, no process and worse, no  understanding of why this is simply bad practice.  Nothing shady here on teh part of the customer.

scenario #2:
imagine you are an OEM and/or you have a couple of major disitrbutors. you sell them your product for X times something, then they sell it to the end customer for X times something times something else. Your distributors find out who produces your hardware and they decide to cut you off. good luck suing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow

yes. imagine if they where nto just doing the PCB manufacture but also the Assembly..     ( and maybe even programming if thats something you do ).....

this is how i see it, nothing shady.

In deed, nothign shady on the part of teh customer.

[X]

scenario #1:
imagine you have a competitor that would do anything to impact your sales / gain intel. they manage to find out who produces your hardware, which are people that are already giving away sensitive data. good luck sueing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow.

True, but what may be sensitive to one may not be sensitive to another, hence why I suggested the OP bring this up with SparkFun and any other customers he thinks are affected, the OP knows what was disclosed after all. If the customers aren't OK with this, then ALLPCB will have some explaining to do if it wants to keep those customers.

scenario #2:
imagine you are an OEM and/or you have a couple of major disitrbutors. you sell them your product for X times something, then they sell it to the end customer for X times something times something else. Your distributors find out who produces your hardware and they decide to cut you off. good luck suing a chinese fab that could disappear tomorrow

this is how i see it, nothing shady.

That is a good point, but the distributor is just distributing the product and making a significant cut from it, so they are unlikely to care about where a manufacturer sources its components from, unless something can occur which weakens the distributor's reputation.

[ansonbao]

Be aware that these are the same people that run pcbway.com

1:This is my last statement in eevblog about this question, we are different companies and they are our clients. Now in order to prevent misunderstanding between our clients, we canceled cooperation with them.
Our production capacity, after-sales service and others are different. We can produce Fr4 boards, stencil-frame, aluminum boards, etc., and each order you can leave feedback to us in our system and special staff will offer after-sale service.

2: Customer Information is also the most important thing we care about, Information disclosure never happened in PCBWay. If you meet this problem from allpcb, it is their responsibility. As I said above, we are different companies. We own pcb factory and pcb assembly factory, please do not put us together in the future.

3:Erin was ever our staff, but she left PCBWay a long time ago. It is a pity that you did not continue to cooperate with PCBWay.

[mrpackethead]

1:This is my last statement in eevblog about this question, we are different companies and they are our clients. Now in order to prevent misunderstanding, we canceled cooperation with them.
Our production capacity, after-sales service and others are different. We can produce Fr4 boards, stencil-frame, aluminum boards, flexible board, etc., and each order you can leave feedback to us in our system and special staff will offer after-sale service.
[/quote]

You have exactly the same office address.. Same building same floor..   You have remarkably similar web sites and systems.      And you even share a bank account with the same company name.  the banking details for allpcb.com and pcbway.com are the same.              On the face of it,  everything seems the same.. and its the same peopel involved.. What are we supposed to think..    I appreciate that you might have had a fall out with these people.

[ansonbao]

We provide some support base on cooperation that time, including technology, production and others. But later we found it affect our own brand, so we decide to cancel the cooperation finally. I believe that most customers realized we improve our services, like faster audit and quality assurance, you can leave feedback to us for each order and special staff will offer after-sale service. Hope we can continue cooperate in the future.

[mrpackethead]

We provide some support base on cooperation that time, including technology, production and others. But later we found it affect our own brand, so we decide to cancel the cooperation finally. I believe that most customers realized we improve our services, like faster audit and quality assurance, you can leave feedback to us for each order and special staff will offer after-sale service. Hope we can continue cooperate in the future.

And the same bank account, the same office, the same people..   We have have a saying " if it looks like a Duck, its probably a Duck  ".    If you are really are two companies, then you this has not been good for you.         Why would companys share bank accounts..     That is very very odd.

My experience was that the audit process for Allpcb was almost identical,  there were no problems with Quality..  What was different was the stencils that Allpcb were supplying where superior to PCBway..  But thats a moot point now..

When you have to rely on a supplier because its business critical ( for a lot of folks here its a hobby so its a bit different ) all this becomes very important.