Author Topic: Anyone tried PCBWin? (Read 19768 times)

nwvlab · « **on:** September 17, 2016, 05:41:11 pm »

Hi there!

I found PCBWin (http://www.pcbwin.com/), which seems to have good price/capabilities performances for low quantities (some seems better than PCBWay, in particular the minimum solder bridge). Anyone tried it? Would you recommend it?

Cheers

Nicola

wraper · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2016, 06:13:37 pm »

Seem to be yet another face of PCBway, 3PCB and pcbgogo. Choose the one which will offer better price, PCBs will be from the same factory. Also, if you upload the files, and get price increased from what was given by online quote, upload them again in a few hours. Gerbers will be checked by different person, and very likely price won't be increased.

wraper · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2016, 06:15:48 pm »

doesn't order progress bar look similar?
http://www.pcbwin.com/online_order
http://www.pcbgogo.com/pcb-board-quote.html
http://www.3pcb.com/pcb-board-quote.html

nwvlab · « **Reply #3 on:** September 18, 2016, 07:00:24 am »

Thank you, also for the hints

Yes, the progress bars look similar, but maybe they just copied the layout

In fact, some specs are slightly different each other, and some offer more options (panelization, etc.).

cheers

wraper · « **Reply #4 on:** September 18, 2016, 07:16:24 am »

All others also have different design, different quotation parameters yet are exactly the same guys.

nwvlab · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2016, 11:16:05 am »

Quote from: wraper on September 18, 2016, 07:16:24 am

All others also have different design, different quotation parameters yet are exactly the same guys.

I sent all of them similar questions ^^ I wonder if they realized this ^^

technotronix · « **Reply #6 on:** September 19, 2016, 08:02:15 am »

I don't have any experience yet but can can take review from their client and also compare quality, tun around and cost with others.

wraper · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2016, 09:17:11 am »

Quote from: blueskull on September 20, 2016, 05:25:11 am

It does not look bad, at least. When choosing a fab, I take a look at these factors, any of these trigger my BS alarm:

1. They offer or even advertise PCB clone or MCU decrypt service.
2. Obvious typo or grammar issues in their front page.
3. Computer rendered photos of their facility.

Seems like it passed my BS test.

3. "factory" building photo with computer rendered logo.

wraper · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2016, 09:29:12 am »

Though they seem to be different enough from other 3 websites and seem to use their own photos. Domain was registered on 2016-02-23, by different person and using different registrar unlike 3 other clones. Domain name probably chosen to be similar to pcbwing.com to get hits from the wrong input. So dunno, not 100% sure if it is or isn't pcbway clone. No photos of the box in which PCBs get shipped, so not possible to check by that either.
But all websites were certainly made at the same place. Once you start ordering, they are nearly identical.
The difference is that order gets reviewed after the payment, unlike on other websites where it is done before payment.

nwvlab · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2016, 09:43:54 am »

?!? Do you think they might be scammers? I was just about to place an order in few minutes!
I'm a bit afraid now $:-\$

wraper · « **Reply #10 on:** September 20, 2016, 09:53:51 am »

I don't think they are scammers, pretty sure your boards will get delivered.

wraper · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2016, 10:07:29 am »

Quote from: nwvlab on September 20, 2016, 09:43:54 am

?!? Do you think they might be scammers? I was just about to place an order in few minutes!
I'm a bit afraid now $:-\$

If you are concerned about rendered factory logo on the building, pcbway have rendered logo too.

nwvlab · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2016, 10:18:17 am »

So... I placed the order...

I hope the quality is good

wraper · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2016, 10:35:07 am »

please tell the result once they arrive.

nwvlab · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2016, 10:56:22 am »

I will.

I'm also curious, because they claim some features (minimum soldermask bridge) which were lacking in PCBWay... Order has been reviewed and now it's under processing.

cheers!

wraper · « **Reply #15 on:** September 26, 2016, 06:29:30 am »

Ordered 50 panels with 19x16 cm size consisting of 8 PCBs each, ENIG and matte blue solder resist, $280 including delivery which is about $50 cheaper than PCB way and matte solder resist at no additional cost. As quantity is significant, should have some guess about quality and consistency.

nwvlab · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2016, 08:49:13 am »

On 20/09 I ordered 10 panels 4x4 cm each (yep, each board is very small, and I did not need a huge quantity for my prototype), 4 layers, black matte sm, ENIG finish, with stencil (you must drop a line asking for it, and they will manually adjust the price). The total price was 130$ including shipping. They also sent me a checkplot (I asked for it), before actually manufacturing the stencil.

Unfortunately they had a 12-hours power failure, so they are going to ship the boards tomorrow, instead of today. I'm not in a hurry, therefore this was not a problem to me. I really do hope that the quality is as claimed!

If they keep their word about their specs, in my opinion this was the best price. In fact, for instance, they claim a minimum solder mask bridge of 0.12 mm, if the pin2pin spacing is 0.2mm*: therefore, I think that the soldermask alignment should be better than 2 mils, otherwise there could be soldermask over the pads. We'll see.

I'll keep you updated.

*to be honest, they claim minimum bridge (with 0.2mm spacing) for green sm, and 0.12 mm (I assume therefore with 0.22 mm spacing) for other sm colors.

nwvlab · « **Reply #17 on:** October 05, 2016, 12:40:25 pm »

Sooo, here I am again.

Finally, the package arrived. It was much bigger than I expected, with a lot of protective foam: they could have packaged in a much easier (and cheaper for them) way.

Back to the board:

The overall quality seems a bit better than PCBWay. In particular:
1) The routing was much better and precise (now round corners are actually round!).
2) I can't decide which silkscreen is better in terms of readability, compared to PCBWay. However:
a) The silkscreen alignment is very good (much better compared to PCBWay). For instance I wrote some "+" in the panel, in all layers (including silkscreen) and the metal and the silkscreen are perfectly aligned.
b) PCBWay used a very large clearance between pads and silkscreen, so they cut many text, which were "too close" (not that much) to pads. Instead, in this PCBWin run, the silkscreen is readable near the pads.
Still, (but that's a problem of my homemade reflow oven calibration), the silkscreen is more "sensitive" to high temperature, with respect to PCBWay (I mean, the silkscreen became a little bit yellowish. But you almost cannot notice it).
3) The solder bridge is present, however, I don't know why, between SOME pads of the same QFN chip there is no soldermask bridge! (see later about gerber edits)

However, some things made me a bit upset:
1) They edited my gerbers

For instance:
   a) by adding one hole on the route tabs. Ok, this allows to break the panel by hand (I use a knife for my prototypes), but it's somewhat annyoing knowing that someone edits your gerbers, without even knowing the final application.
   b) It seems to me that they reduced the stencil aperture of two pads (those of the chassis) of the USB connector... that's strange.
   c) Instead, it seems they changed (enlarged) the soldermask aperture for some components :/ Maybe this is why between some pads the soldermask bridge is missing.
2) The stencil appears a bit thick. Ok, I have been stupid, because I forgot to specify the thickness. However I asked esplicitly "For any questions contact me please!", so they should have contacted me asking for the thickness. And furthermore, if you see fine pitch and 0402 components, you won't go for a very thick soldermask. Fortunately, the solder paste I use actually does miracles and it is VERY forgiving, and I got no shorts, no tombstoning, no issues

After reflow (i soldered one panel, i.e. two boards) it's working

I will post later some pictures.

A final rant goes to TNT: do not use TNT, at least if you live in Italy. They have a fixed import administration fee of 24.4€. VAT was 25.5€ (perfectly aligned to what I payed, unlike DHL). They almost doubled the VAT!!!
TNT, however, had the lowest shipping fee (10.4$)... I will check if other carriers are cheaper overall.

Cheers!

wraper · « **Reply #18 on:** October 10, 2016, 04:18:59 pm »

Why the hell they put PCB count in the invoice, not panel count

. Now customs asking me what I'm going to do with 400 pcbs, sounds much more than 50 panels. The funny part is in a few days another order with 20 panels will arrive, 2400 tiny PCBs in total

.

nwvlab · « **Reply #19 on:** October 10, 2016, 04:41:07 pm »

Quote from: wraper on October 10, 2016, 04:18:59 pm

Why the hell they put PCB count in the invoice, not panel count . Now customs asking me what I'm going to do with 400 pcbs, sounds much more than 50 panels. The funny part is in a few days another order with 20 panels will arrive, 2400 tiny PCBs in total .

In mine they just put the number of panels. I sent them the panel with two pcbs. Did you ask them to panelize your board or did you send the panel? Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price

).

wraper · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2016, 05:07:42 pm »

I supplied them panel gerbers. But in online quotation you set the total PCB count for some reason, not panel count.

wraper · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2016, 05:30:36 pm »

Quote from: nwvlab on October 10, 2016, 04:41:07 pm

Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price ).

Too late. Also specifying the price don't work here, unless you want to forge the paypal or bank statement (and potentially get into serious trouble). It never clears the customs automatically (any courier except post and EMS), you always need to provide documents before it gets cleared.

nwvlab · « **Reply #22 on:** October 11, 2016, 07:19:55 am »

Quote from: wraper on October 10, 2016, 05:30:36 pm

Quote from: nwvlab on October 10, 2016, 04:41:07 pm
Anyway you can just ask them what they should specify in the invoice (including price ).
Too late. Also specifying the price don't work here, unless you want to forge the paypal or bank statement (and potentially get into serious trouble). It never clears the customs automatically (any courier except post and EMS), you always need to provide documents before it gets cleared.

Yep, that's why I told them to write the full price, even if they offered to declare a lower value. In fact, TNT requested me the invoice (despite it was outside the package!), but I also sent the last paypal transactions for confirmation.

For the panel/PCB numbers, I can't find where you must specify the number of pcbs. Yes,you specify the number of copies in the array (so they will do the math), but, well I guess I have been lucky and they just wrote the number of PCBs

wraper · « **Reply #23 on:** October 11, 2016, 07:31:37 am »

Quote from: nwvlab on October 11, 2016, 07:19:55 am

For the panel/PCB numbers, I can't find where you must specify the number of pcbs. Yes,you specify the number of copies in the array (so they will do the math), but, well I guess I have been lucky and they just wrote the number of PCBs

Normally you specify number of panels. With pcbwin there is PCB quantity in the panel, and there is just quantity, which, obviously, is a number of PCBs, as panel quantity gets calculated out of that. Panel quantity cannot be input directly, unless you input 1 pcb in the panel. I guess you selected 2 different designs in the panel and that counts as one copy.
First batch got cleared after I wrote them a fairy tale.

nwvlab · « **Reply #24 on:** October 11, 2016, 07:34:47 am »

nope I just set 1 different design (each panel contained two copies)

wraper · « **Reply #25 on:** October 11, 2016, 10:06:43 am »

Inspected under microscope, and can say that pcbwin quality blows shit out of any cheap pcb service I've seen.

DerekG · « **Reply #26 on:** October 11, 2016, 11:53:07 am »

Quote from: wraper on October 11, 2016, 10:06:43 am

Inspected under microscope, and can say that pcbwin quality blows shit out of any cheap pcb service I've seen.

Did PCBWIN close up the via annular ring with soldermask, or did they tent the vias? (assuming you asked for neither)

PCBWAY covered the via annular copper rings with our last production order & I prefer that they don't do this as it prevents easy access to those holes should we wish to utilise them as a power or ground points etc.

PCBWAY did not do this with the prototype boards, only the production boards.

Just for some info, we ordered red soldermask for our last production boards. We won't do this again as this does not work well with the auto-inspection software as it is far more reflective over the standard green soldermask.

Having said the above, I'm sure if I requested PCBWAY to not cover the via annular rings with soldermask they would comply with that request.

Our boards were done in 3Oz copper & the quality is really quite excellent.

wraper · « **Reply #27 on:** October 11, 2016, 12:13:19 pm »

pcbwin !=pcbway 100%. What to do with vias can be selected in online quotation. My vias were tented by design. PCB quality of PCBway completely sucks compared to what pcbwin supplied. PCBs are separated by layer of paper. They are 100% clean, no dust or other solder mask defect like fingerprints unlike pcbway. Solder resist adjustment is excellent, and it seems they lowered guard gap as my design was crap service optimized with 5 mil gap. The only downside I see, they are slower than PCBway. But pcbs look like what you get if ordering in EU, not somewhere in china.

wraper · « **Reply #28 on:** October 11, 2016, 12:19:35 pm »

parts on the picture 0603 and sot23-8. Matte blue solder mask.

wraper · « **Reply #29 on:** October 11, 2016, 12:29:54 pm »

Same thing from pcbway (glossy blue).

DerekG · « **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2016, 01:25:35 pm »

Quote from: wraper on October 11, 2016, 12:19:35 pm

parts on the picture 0603 and sot23-8. Matte blue solder mask.

Thanks heaps for the photo comparison & comments.

How much longer did it take for the boards from PCBWIN to arrive over PCBWAY?

Did you get a solder paste stencil from PCBWIN & if you did, what was the quality like?

wraper · « **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2016, 01:55:32 pm »

No I didn't get stencil. I asked for it, but they supply only stencils with frame. There were Chinese holidays so, it's hard to tell for sure. But it seems that about 5 days for smaller order (my second order, 20 pcs 18x20 panels, matte green). Or more for larger one, they shown 7 days for this 50 panel order, and it seems it took about 7-8 days they actually worked during this time to dispatch it. PCBway dispatches very fast, I ordered 15 panels of this design on Thursday late night and it was dispatched on Monday IIRC. But I'm certainly better wait a few days to get better quality, and at lower price.

nwvlab · « **Reply #32 on:** October 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pm »

Quote from: wraper on October 11, 2016, 01:55:32 pm

No I didn't get stencil. I asked for it, but they supply only stencils with frame. There were Chinese holidays so, it's hard to tell for sure. But it seems that about 5 days for smaller order (my second order, 20 pcs 18x20 panels, matte green). Or more for larger one, they shown 7 days for this 50 panel order, and it seems it took about 7-8 days they actually worked during this time to dispatch it. PCBway dispatches very fast, I ordered 15 panels of this design on Thursday late night and it was dispatched on Monday IIRC. But I'm certainly better wait a few days to get better quality, and at lower price.

Pcbwin does supply stencils also without frames!!! I got mine without. The cost was 40$ (i got 10$ discount). A bit expensive, if compared to others, but the pcb quality overwhelms this drawback.

wraper · « **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2016, 05:54:33 pm »

Quote from: nwvlab on October 11, 2016, 04:39:39 pm

Pcbwin does supply stencils also without frames!!! I got mine without. The cost was 40$ (i got 10$ discount). A bit expensive, if compared to others, but the pcb quality overwhelms this drawback.

Their english was poor. I asked about stencil without the frame, they replied they can supply with the frame. Then likely they understood wrong what I asked for.

wraper · « **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2016, 11:58:54 pm »

Yep, I got certainly screwed with second order with 2400 quantity in the invoice, but only $106 + shipping

Customs sen't me to #$@%&, or to customs brokers in another words. Said they suspect me in commercial activity. Lesson to learn.

ansonbao · « **Reply #35 on:** November 14, 2016, 03:33:15 am »

Quote from: nwvlab on September 17, 2016, 05:41:11 pm

Hi there!

I found PCBWin (http://www.pcbwin.com/), which seems to have good price/capabilities performances for low quantities (some seems better than PCBWay, in particular the minimum solder bridge). Anyone tried it? Would you recommend it?

Cheers

Nicola

I am pcbway manager,pcbwin copied our website and use our client photos from our website,we have sent lawyer's letter to their company.their action is shame.

Please not be cheated.

nwvlab · « **Reply #36 on:** November 20, 2016, 04:46:42 pm »

Quote from: ansonbao on November 14, 2016, 03:33:15 am

Quote from: nwvlab on September 17, 2016, 05:41:11 pm
Hi there!

I found PCBWin (http://www.pcbwin.com/), which seems to have good price/capabilities performances for low quantities (some seems better than PCBWay, in particular the minimum solder bridge). Anyone tried it? Would you recommend it?

Cheers

Nicola
I am pcbway manager,pcbwin copied our website and use our client photos from our website,we have sent lawyer's letter to their company.their action is shame.

Please not be cheated.

Frankly, I'm happy of having been "cheated" by them.

When I started this thread, I was about to place my second order to PCBWay (after ruling out Elecrow for some bad reviews in this forum). In fact, with the previous PCBWay order, I found out that, given your price, the quality was "ok" enough for a prototype (from the electrical viewpoint. Instead from the "aesthetic" viewpoint it was not very good, indicating a backlash problem in your routing machine. Also, the alignment between silkscreen and traces was not very accurate).

Then by chance I discovered PCBWin, and their base specs seemed to me very good, so I gave them a try (in particular their minimum solder gap and the availability of matte black soldermask).
After receiving my PCB from them I have been positively impressed by their quality. I do hope they will keep their quality standard as high as they were some months ago.

Instead of waging war here in the forum, you could improve your quality.

nwvlab · « **Reply #37 on:** November 20, 2016, 08:06:25 pm »

Quote from: blueskull on November 20, 2016, 07:49:20 pm

Quote from: nwvlab on November 20, 2016, 04:46:42 pm
Frankly, I'm happy of having been "cheated" by them.

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment. A Chinese company clones another --> the cheapest and best quality one is the king. A Chinese company clones a western company --> it's a bitch.

Actually I don't give a shit if they "clone" a western company, mine, or a chinese company. But yes, if the quality and price are better, why should one pay more and get a worser quality?

wraper · « **Reply #38 on:** November 20, 2016, 09:12:08 pm »

Quote from: ansonbao on November 14, 2016, 03:33:15 am

Quote from: nwvlab on September 17, 2016, 05:41:11 pm
Hi there!

I found PCBWin (http://www.pcbwin.com/), which seems to have good price/capabilities performances for low quantities (some seems better than PCBWay, in particular the minimum solder bridge). Anyone tried it? Would you recommend it?

Cheers

Nicola
I am pcbway manager,pcbwin copied our website and use our client photos from our website,we have sent lawyer's letter to their company.their action is shame.

Please not be cheated.

Bullshit about photos. Their photos are their own, I used google image search a while ago and all of their photos (which I checked, which was a lot) were their own. BTW your quality sucked on my last orders.

wraper · « **Reply #39 on:** November 20, 2016, 09:39:06 pm »

BTW it seems like their website uses the same platform rather that just copied.

nwvlab · « **Reply #40 on:** November 20, 2016, 09:54:12 pm »

Quote from: blueskull on November 20, 2016, 08:15:23 pm

You are essentially saying that a company can directly copy another's website and reduce cost on web/software development and you are happy to use their service because of the lower price?

I'm not saying that. To be clear, I was not impressed by the price (very similar). But by the quality. And I don't think that saving on the website development will give you such a big monetary advantage which will allow you to noticeably improve the quality of the final product.

(EDIT: I'm talking about PCBs)

Quote from: blueskull on November 20, 2016, 08:15:23 pm

What's the difference between that and buying things at hardware BOM cost with cloned firmware? I'm not embedded or software programmer, but I bet a software guy will be quite pissed off.

Some differences:
1) In your example, the firmware is part of the product. The website is just something to sell the product. Is not the product. (Yes, I know, the website development cost will have to be amortized in the final product cost...). Still, in your example you're buying counterfeit products. In PCBWay-Win you're buying "genuine" products from both vendors.

2) The house that actually programmed the firmware will have more control on the product and could potentially improve it. The house that simply clones it, will have to wait. Therefore the real developer could exploit this to be ahead the dishonest competitors.

3) Typically, the house that only clones the device, will have also a lower manufacturing quality (if they clone, their goal is to maximize profit). Instead, in our PCBWay-PCBWin case, the house that "copied" the website has a better manufacturing quality.

Yes, in the retrospect, PCBWin should not have "copied" the website. Also because this caused confusion among users, e.g. some of us in this thread thought that PCBWin was PCBWay just with another name.

Finally, I'm feeling like of having abused the word "copy". In fact, the two websites are very similar, but not an exact copy. Therefore some development/design has been done by PcbWin too... If I say that PCBWin just copied the website, I should also say that Windows and MacOs are two copies, because they use windows, folders, buttons, etc. Or that any modern cell phone is a copy of the iPhone, because they have a touchscreen and rounded edges...

EDIT:

Quote from: wraper on November 20, 2016, 09:39:06 pm

BTW it seems like their website uses the same platform rather that just copied.

Well if this is true, "copy" is really an abused word.

wraper · « **Reply #41 on:** November 20, 2016, 09:57:45 pm »

Oh, and BTW, you PCBway of high morals, which hiding behind multiple websites. Before crying about others ripping off something, be ashamed of ripping off website name from Advanced circuits (3PCB vs 4PCB). Moreover, not so long time ago, you were ripping off huge chunks of text from their website, seem to be gone now (did they sue you?).

stephen.garfield88 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 13, 2016, 10:15:40 am »

I tried PCBWin by chance, and I was surprised by their service. Their responce is very quick, and they solve me every tiny question. The quality is also excellent, I must say.

stephen.garfield88 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 15, 2016, 08:39:08 am »

yeah, actually I have tried PCBWin for my prototype. 55*45mm, 20pcs, 2L, ship to France. The price is good, the quality is totally worth the money. Especially their service is excellent, the response is quick. Anyway, you guys could also have a try on them, and hope you get the same excellent experience with me.

Cheers,
Stephen

richardlawson1489 · « **Reply #44 on:** December 30, 2016, 07:07:56 am »

I had a pretty good experience with them. For order, some of the prototype some my home made a project and I was satisfied with quality and turnaround.

Totoxa · « **Reply #45 on:** April 28, 2017, 01:04:28 am »

Based on the review on this thread I decided to get some boards and stencil done at pcbwin and I think they did a really god job. Also the boards were done very quick (three days, I paid extra).
This board has some fine pitch components (0.2 mm space between pads).

(excuse my shitty photos)

DigitalDeath · « **Reply #46 on:** May 02, 2017, 08:26:34 am »

Hi Totoxa,

Do you happen to have some microscope or close-up pictures of the fine pitch pads and its soldermask? It looks like it's high quality.

sdouble · « **Reply #47 on:** May 05, 2017, 05:45:00 am »

they made a batch of 600 pcbs for me. 4 layers, 2 rogers 4003c cores and fr4 prepreg.
In general , happy with the work.
Only problem : they modified my gerber without informing me. small mods but still...

Koen · « **Reply #48 on:** May 08, 2017, 07:35:35 am »

I wonder if we'll ever see advertising accounts like Shenzhen123, chinese flag and broken mandarin from some company located in the UK.


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Author Topic: Anyone tried PCBWin? (Read 19768 times)

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