Desktop Pick-and-place: overview

[l0wside]

Hi all,

after reading the various PNP threads here, I felt it was time to create an overview of the machines for easier comparison of their features. So I did it 
The overview is at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s9YmD-L69UXG5paMiz0pwO06J9nptdcopGrSa_s9t_E/pubhtml

Update 2016-03-30: removed Varioplacer, added data from SmallSMT, added Charmhigh, split the "other machines" part into existing ones and Vaporware.
Update 2016-03-31: added Boreytech. Skipped OpenPNP due to lack of data.
Update 2016-04-01: moved to Google Documents, moved Visionbot from Vaporware to Further Machines, renamed DIY to "Plan Only"
Update 2016-04-02: included SmallSMT´s comments
Update 2016-04-04: clarified height limitation for the Qihe machines
Update 2016-04-05: added VisionBot

Max

[Royce]

There is the visionbot guy. He should perhaps be in there. http://visionbot.net/

[l0wside]

I thought of including him, but as the current status is still Vaporware (or does someone know otherwise?), I decided to skip him.
True, I should have done the same with the Varioplacer.

EDIT: Just re-checked the VisionBot website. The guy at least has two things: a solid ego and a good web designer (probably himself?). What he does not have is technical data. The "datasheet" looks colorful but that´s about it. I did not even find something about the minimum pitch.

Max

[Smallsmt]

Here is my unfinished list may it helps to add more informations.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I thought of including him, but as the current status is still Vaporware (or does someone know otherwise?), I decided to skip him.
True, I should have done the same with the Varioplacer.

Max

I did see  a post somewhere recently  that they had delivered a machine to a customer in Wales, with some footage of it working

[mrpackethead]

Here is my unfinished list may it helps to add more informations.

The VP-2800HP is missing form your list? can you add the detials for that. 

[l0wside]

I put the VP2x00D and HP versions into one column each and marked the differences to the HP separately.
Should I extend the SmallSMT data to six columns?

List will be updated later tonight.

Max

[Smallsmt]

Would be better Max because machines are so different. (servo , linear guidings, ball screw spindle , 3 side feeders)

[l0wside]

Done, see first post.
Also added Charmhigh with two machines (had not been aware of the CHMT530P yet, does not look like a major progress over the CHMT48).

Charmhigh also have the CHMT36 and CHMT28, both without vision. Look like the Neoden machines with an extra display. Might include them in the next update.

During my research, I came across https://wiki.apertus.org/index.php/PnP_Machine_Evaluation - another attempt at an overview.

Max

[mrpackethead]

Theres also boreytech that ou might want to check out.

[l0wside]

OK...they have quite a range of machines.
Will check them out tomorrow. Good night.

Max

[l0wside]

Boreytech is now included. Guessing from the videos, their machines look pretty solid, they also seem to have a range of larger machines. With the four-head machines, they claim 9600 cph, which does not seem to be totally out of scope.
Put a lot of question marks, the website is a disaster (starting with Google warning me of malicious content on the site). If someone would bother to contact them and clarify the open points (mainly regarding trays), I would be grateful. If someone happens to be in Beijing, he could pay a visit to them. Bringing a native speaker along might prove useful.
What makes me scratch my head is the fact that they have a site on Aliexpress, but zero products there.

Anyone buying from them might have a good chance to be their first customer outside China.


Re OpenPNP: they list three machines on their website, but one is old, the other one (Teton) does not have any documentation to speak of, and the last one lives in a Github repository. Someone must have built one of them, but I could not find any performance data.

Max

[mikeselectricstuff]

Re OpenPNP: they list three machines on their website, but one is old, the other one (Teton) does not have any documentation to speak of, and the last one lives in a Github repository. Someone must have built one of them, but I could not find any performance data.

openpnp is primarily a software project, at least at the moment, so performance figures aren't meanigful

[l0wside]

My intention was to introduce a third section (besides "kits" and "machines") called "OpenPNP". I am well aware that OpenPNP is not a HW project.

My current conclusion is: no machine with OpenPNP is currently available (neither as kit nor as finished device), so I´ll skip OpenPNP. Maybe it will run with Liteplacer or the TVM802 one day.

Max

[vonnieda]

My intention was to introduce a third section (besides "kits" and "machines") called "OpenPNP". I am well aware that OpenPNP is not a HW project.

My current conclusion is: no machine with OpenPNP is currently available (neither as kit nor as finished device), so I´ll skip OpenPNP. Maybe it will run with Liteplacer or the TVM802 one day.

Max

Hi Max,

I think you are doing a valuable service here. I've done a little bit of work documenting some commercial machines but really it's just a list of links and a few things I think are "interesting" about each one.

I hope you don't mind if I make two suggestions:

1. You might consider putting this on a Wiki page somewhere, instead of as a PDF. It will make it a lot easier for people to get access to. You can create a repository on Github for free that comes with a free wiki.

2. May I suggest your third section be called "DIY" or "Plans"? The two non-commercial OpenPnP machines listed on the site both include BOMs and instructions for building. They are not commercially available either as a complete machine or as a kit but the plans include everything you need to build it yourself. That being said, I agree with your comment that you can't currently include these machines due to lack of data. That's something I'm going to work on.

In any case, very nice work. I think this a valuable document you've put together!

Jason

[mikeselectricstuff]

There is the visionbot guy. He should perhaps be in there. http://visionbot.net/

According to the website they've shipped 3 units. Production rate limited by the fact the guy's still in college...

[sparkswillfly]

Thanks.  Could you add a feeder type criteria and have fixed, cassette electronic (neoden 4), cassette pneumatic (a few)

Also there is TVM920

Maybe this could be a hosted Google sheet instead of offline files?

[l0wside]

Jason, @sparkswillfly: thank you for your suggestions.

The table is now at Google Docs. Seemed more sensible to me than starting a full-fledged Github project just to have a single Wiki page.
The document is open for public comment at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s9YmD-L69UXG5paMiz0pwO06J9nptdcopGrSa_s9t_E/edit?usp=sharing
I did not enable editing for everyone for fear of vandalism. I am not Wikipedia who have sufficient resources to sort these things out.

TVM920 is now also included - with a lot of question marks, the data is pretty sparse.

If you have any hard data on the Visionbot, please post them here, or add them in the comments, or PM me, or whatever. I feel unable to find something.

The table now has a section called "plans only", see change note in first post.

Max

[ar__systems]

For TVM802x max height from tray remains only a theoretical capability since with stock s/w there is no way to control order of placing parts. The s/w will reorder the list per it's own algorithm and then it might hit the parts already installed.

Also, if for any reason the pressure sensor will malfunction (which it does, a lot) during placement, it will abort it's current plan and move to discard the component on the needle, again, with a real possibility of knocking off parts already installed.

[l0wside]

Thank you. I have removed the remark "10mm (from tray)".

Max

[l0wside]

Seems that Wingdings and Google Docs don´t mix very well.

Fixed, now showing + and - (less fancy, more portable).

Max

[alexandru]

So far we shipped three units. Two in Romania and one in UK. All of the machines were designed and assembled in Romania, European Union and not in China. This is why all of our customers with legal entities from the European Union don't have to pay any tax, VAT, customs. Here is a new video uploaded by Dave from Megapoints showing VisionBot pick and placing  200x 0805 resistors and leds to assembly his products.



This video was filmed after 5 days Dave received and powered on our machine. The new units will have Juki nozzles 50x and now are working on improving the speed. As Mike pointed out, I am still a college student and this year I have the graduation exams. Through this month and mid of the next month, me and my engineers may ship 5 new VisionBot 24 and 32 units. We are looking to accelerate our production line. We are 3 guys and a half(part time), but we are quite limited in our production rate because simply we are not chinese... We are are also self-funded. Between 19 to 20 April we will exhibit a VisionBot 24 at the Webit.Festival Europe from Sofia, Bulgaria. In our production warehouse we have about 10 units, but all of them are in different stages. We will update our datasheet in a couple of days.

LATER EDIT

This is our production line. In the picture you can see 8 VisionBot PnP. We have also a 2nd room with 3 other complete PnP machines.

[l0wside]

Hi Alexandru,

congratulations at what you have pulled off. This is quite impressive, even more so if I think back at my time as an engineering student 

Could you do me a favor and add the data of the VisionBot to the table which I linked in the first post? You can add comments, I will then integrate them into the table. Otherwise just post them here. Or add them to your datasheet and notify us of the update.

Is 0805 the smallest which you can place?

Max

[alexandru]

Could you do me a favor and add the data of the VisionBot to the table which I linked in the first post? You can add comments, I will then integrate them into the table. Otherwise just post them here. Or add them to your datasheet and notify us of the update.

Is 0805 the smallest which you can place?

Hello Max and guys,

Thank you very much guys for mentioning our machines in the list. We tested and placed 0603 a lot of time even with our own nozzles and this weekend we will make a video showing VisionBot placing 0402 on a dummy PCB, but with the new Juki nozzle 501. In the above video, Dave  assembled only 0805 in his panelized batch because he is actually using 0805 in his PCBs - so he was not doing a test, he was actually assemblying his real products. We placed also with Bottom Vision TQFP 144 pins - we couldn't test the machine with a lot of components because we don't have them in the stock here.

Here is a video published by us 5 months ago showing VisionBot assemblying 0603 resistors with Vision



Later Edit:
btw: We have a legal tax number in Romania, the company full name is SC BIT TECHNOLOGIES RO SRL-D which is owned by me, and there are NO customs, VAT, taxes for legal entities based in the European Union. The price is 3000 USD, and the cheapest shipping for major cities of the European Union can go as low as to 200 USD.

[l0wside]

Hi Alexandru,

just updated the list (and will likely start a discussion thread on the VisionBot).

Regarding taxes, I just checked:

• Inside the EU, your customers will not be subject to import duties. Depending on how the Swiss classify the machine, it will be exempt from import duties as well (TARIC 8479.5020 industrial robot might make sense, this would be duty free).
• VAT is applicable only to private persons. Anyone running his own company which is subject to VAT can deduct the VAT for the Varioplacer from his tax burden. This is however valid for all machines listed in the table. Switzerland is no different here.

Max

[alexandru]

Hi Alexandru,

just updated the list (and will likely start a discussion thread on the VisionBot).

Regarding taxes, I just checked:

• Inside the EU, your customers will not be subject to import duties. Depending on how the Swiss classify the machine, it will be exempt from import duties as well (TARIC 8479.5020 industrial robot might make sense, this would be duty free).
• VAT is applicable only to private persons. Anyone running his own company which is subject to VAT can deduct the VAT for the Varioplacer from his tax burden. This is however valid for all machines listed in the table. Switzerland is no different here.

Max

For the 2nd part, as far as I know, you are not 100% right, I have to ask my accountant. A machine that is manufactured let's say in the country X which is part of the EU, all the customers(legal entities/persons, everybody) from the same country X has to pay VAT to that country's government for buying that product. It is just like buying a coffee. When you pay for a coup of coffee, you must pay also the VAT for the coffee and as a final customer you will no longer recover your VAT back. For instance our Romanians national customers, although they had legal entities, due to the government selling policies, all of them had to pay VAT (20%) to the Romanian state (because they were national customers). So I believe that the German legal entities, still have to pay the VAT for buying Varioplacer because it is manufactured in Germany (in case the taxation policies are the same with the Romanian ones).  So in my case all the legal entities based in the European Union (except in Romania) do NOT have to pay VAT or any kind of customs or tax. Why and how this magic happens? Simple because we already paid the VAT, the customs and other taxes for the mechanical parts of the machine. Thank you very much for telling me about Swiss VAT waiver, but to be sure I will double check with the Swiss Chamber of Commerce when I will deliver one there.

For the Chinese machines that are imported directly from China (or any non EU state) everybody is required to pay the VAT and  the Customs Tax. Those two taxes are totally different taxes.

[l0wside]

Hi Alexandru,

might be a good idea to ask your accountant.
To any European customer, you will need to charge VAT. Customers running a business which is not exempt from VAT can however get back this VAT from their tax agency. Whether this is inside Romania, inside Germany or between two member states of the EU does not make a difference.

Buying a Varioplace (which seems to be impossible, but that´s a different story) would mean paying them the full amount plus VAT. Then, if I have a business, I can get back the VAT from the tax agency.
On the other hand, a business has to charge VAT to its customers on anything that they are selling. That´s why it´s called VAT, value added tax: it is only charged on the value that you add to your products.

Under German jurisdiction, there is one exception: small companies can apply to be tax exempt. Then, they are not obliged to charge the VAT to their customers, but they cannot deduct the VAT on what they buy. Your company might run a similar model.


Regarding duties (what you call "import tax"): this applies to anyone, be it a business or a private person. You are correct that the two are different.


Max

[alexandru]

Hi Alexandru,

might be a good idea to ask your accountant.
To any European customer, you will need to charge VAT. Customers running a business which is not exempt from VAT can however get back this VAT from their tax agency. Whether this is inside Romania, inside Germany or between two member states of the EU does not make a difference.

Buying a Varioplace (which seems to be impossible, but that´s a different story) would mean paying them the full amount plus VAT. Then, if I have a business, I can get back the VAT from the tax agency.
On the other hand, a business has to charge VAT to its customers on anything that they are selling. That´s why it´s called VAT, value added tax: it is only charged on the value that you add to your products.

Under German jurisdiction, there is one exception: small companies can apply to be tax exempt. Then, they are not obliged to charge the VAT to their customers, but they cannot deduct the VAT on what they buy. Your company might run a similar model.


Regarding duties (what you call "import tax"): this applies to anyone, be it a business or a private person. You are correct that the two are different.


Max

I will check it tomorrow, but I am very sure that I am quite right. I can tell you one thing. I bought a brand new fine mechanics lathe and vertical mill from Austria(EU) manufacturer Bernardo. The machines were ~ 5000 euro and I did NOT pay any VAT because I have a legal entity and we did not sell the machines afterwards. We kept the machines for our production line (in our stock), and by this we did not pay any VAT for 5000 euro. There are a lot of special laws like: selling the machine outside of the EU I will get my initial VAT back from the state not cash through substitution.

[ar__systems]

I'm pretty sure you are not. I'm sure VAT works like HST in Canada, and as such it is basically irrelevant to any business. It does not matter if EU business buys stuff from Romania or China, at the end of the day they don't pay any VAT on their purchase. (Even though at the time of the purchase VAT is charged).

Duties, however, is a different story.

[mrpackethead]

Any one of you have a company in PANAMA!  then you dont' ahve to pay any tax. Full Stop. Untill you get caught.
 O0

[TJ232]

Any one of you have a company in PANAMA!  then you dont' ahve to pay any tax. Full Stop. Untill you get caught.
 O0

LOL

 

[alexandru]

I'm pretty sure you are not. I'm sure VAT works like HST in Canada, and as such it is basically irrelevant to any business. It does not matter if EU business buys stuff from Romania or China, at the end of the day they don't pay any VAT on their purchase. (Even though at the time of the purchase VAT is charged).

Duties, however, is a different story.

As I told you I am right. I checked with my accountant.  No VAT for any legal entity in the EU that has VAT number especially the  Intra-Community VAT number .

Selling to businesses

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

[ar__systems]

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

You need to read the article entirely. You don't charge VAT from customers in other countries because they are in another country. They, however, are still obligated to pay VAT in their country at the time of import.

Better stop this argument and accept that businesses are not affected by VAT. Only consumers are.

[alexandru]

If you sell goods to another business and these goods are sent to another EU country, you do not charge VAT - if the customer has a valid VAT number.

Here is the proof http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm

You need to read the article entirely. You don't charge VAT from customers in other countries because they are in another country. They, however, are still obligated to pay VAT in their country at the time of import.

Better stop this argument and accept that businesses are not affected by VAT. Only consumers are.

I was talking only about EU countries, and not about non EU countries.  I believe that Canada(where you are based in) is not in the EU. I was talking  only about EU countries where the legal entities don't have to pay any VAT for the  PnP machines manufactured in the EU like VarioPlacer and VisionBot. As in my above example, I still didn't pay any taxes for my lathe and vertical mill even after 8 months of acquisition.  I think many ppl think twice when they are paying 20% more of a 10,000 PnP machine + customs + shipping. There is NO import for legal entities in the European Union because Germany and Romania are in the EU for a long time.

[ar__systems]

I think you still don't understand how VAT works. For a EU business it does not matter where they buy their machine. EU or China. At the end of the day they do not pay VAT.

[alexandru]

I think you still don't understand how VAT works. For a EU business it does not matter where they buy their machine. EU or China. At the end of the day they do not pay VAT.

That is a very wrong assumption. The EU VAT system is  very complex and hard to get it right, this is why the companies here are required get an accountant.

Definitely it matters.. the difference is at least 25% more for all the Chinese machines.

Anyone from EU who is buying a PnP machine legally  from  China,  is required to pay VAT and Customs. Buying a machine manufactured in the EU as a EU legal entity with VAT number doesn't have to pay any tax to the state, not a penny. For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure. Last year, when the VAT in my country was 24%, more than 30% of my revenues where going to the state for taxes, VAT for buying goods from China. This is the reason why I moved to buy more and more goods from EU. Buying goods as a legal entity from EU is VAT free in case you have VAT number and buying from China you must pay about 24.4% (these numbers are in my country). There is no customs and import procedure between EU members.

[ar__systems]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

[mrpackethead]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

Some panamanian accountants looking for jobs so probalby can get one cheap.

[alexandru]

For instance when I buy steppers motors on my company legally from China, I have to pay VAT 20% + 4.4% customs + other DHL taxes for the importing customs procedure.

You need to fire your accountant, all I can say 

Or maybe you should get a book of how to get these things done legally and avoid doing tax evasion. If you don't pay VAT 20%, 4.4% customs for Chinese goods or just talk to the Chinese to make the price look smaller on the invoice that means you do tax evasion here in Romania, EU. One more time, I want to tell you these rules apply for the EU, Ro and maybe they are not exactly the same in Canada where you are from. The EU customs policies were made in this way: making the Chinese goods very expensive by putting them a lot of taxes and reducing the taxes for the organic product sold B2B in the EU to increase the productivity here.

[l0wside]

Assuming that mrpackethead´s proposal was simply a joke, no-one is propagating tax evasion here. It simply would not make any sense for a physical product which you want to write off.

Just checked the German customs site http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Steuern/Einfuhrumsatzsteuer/Vorsteuerabzug/vorsteuerabzug_node.html. It is quite simple: the VAT which you pay on import is refunded to any business which itself is subject to VAT. If you have such a business (which I assume, as you seem to have a VAT number) and paid VAT on an imported machine, either Romanian law is crude (and, most likely, against EU regulations), or your accountant should look into this issue again.

Max

[alexandru]

Assuming that mrpackethead´s proposal was simply a joke, no-one is propagating tax evasion here. It simply would not make any sense for a physical product which you want to write off.

Just checked the German customs site http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Steuern/Einfuhrumsatzsteuer/Vorsteuerabzug/vorsteuerabzug_node.html. It is quite simple: the VAT which you pay on import is refunded to any business which itself is subject to VAT. If you have such a business (which I assume, as you seem to have a VAT number) and paid VAT on an imported machine, either Romanian law is crude (and, most likely, against EU regulations), or your accountant should look into this issue again.

Max

I didn't tell that I don't recover any part of the VAT  from the imported Chinese products after I sell the products afterwards to a customer. I only told you two things
1) For any machine imported from China, all EU legal entities still have to pay with real money the VAT tax and they can recover at some point the VAT as Max pointed.
2) For any machine that is manufactured in the EU, all the EU legal entities don't have to take any penny from their pockets to pay the VAT or Customs tax because these taxes are not applicable to them.

[mrpackethead]

ok, enough tax, its taxing this topic, and its way off topic! go and start a new thread.

[l0wside]

Agreed.

[ttsthermaltech]

#1. I love how the Canadians are always wanting to talk Taxes (and gas prices...). I am Canadian, so I am exempt from offending any other Canadians...

#2 Back to the topic at hand...

Has anyone around here actually bought at Qihe TVM920. I am really impressed with the machine so far. Great specs, 56 Yamaha feeder capacity. Feeders are pretty cheap, looks like great build quality, closed loop steppers, and four heads with Juki Nozzles.

I just would love it if ONE person could vouch for the machine / and or Qihe as a company....

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rob.

[ttsthermaltech]

Just some detailed pics of TVM920 and the GUI

Rob.

[ar__systems]

You bought it?

[ar__systems]

I think I'm going to design yet another desktop PNP This is a fun project to work on.

[thommo]

Hi Rob,
I couldn't find a link for this TVM920 machine on the site in the Google list.
It appears to be exactly the same bed/table design as the Charmhigh machine.
OK - this is the link
http://www.qihekj.com/en/product/html/?45.html

Did you buy this machine - are these your photos?
Does anyone have a manual for it?

Have you actually spoken with the company directly Rob?

BTW it looks great with the black anodised bed!
I wonder why they have limited the feeder size to 14mm max?

Just some detailed pics of TVM920 and the GUI

Rob.

[ar__systems]

which of the Charmhigh you refer to? theirs is not even similar to TVM920.

http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sell-new_chmt530p_pneumatic_feeder_smd_pick_and_place_machine_vision_system_mark2-3728908.html

[ttsthermaltech]

No, haven't bought it yet. Really tempted....

The Charmhigh  CHMT530P is similar / almost identical in terms of PNP mechanics. Controller on the Charmhigh is embedded Linux. The Qihe is Windows based.

The reason I am tempted towards the Qihe is the 56 feeder slots. An extra 26 slots is considerable. Especially when you start added 12mm / 16mm / 24mm feeders which take more than a slot.

I personally don't think that either company is building for the other. They look to be mechanical duplicates of one another with vastly different controls.

There are some videos online of the Qihe TVM920 at: http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_tvm920?f=1&kb=040200000000000__tvm920&_rp=1459875882621ACp6d3&_rp=1459875882621ACp6d3

I was just hoping the some of the people that own Qihe TCM802A/B could chime in and provide some feedback with regards to support, responsiveness to software bugs, etc. It is difficult to get much information. Qihe won't provide a demo of their software for me to test, so I am always leary to jump in. I got burned once with bad PNP software....

I am trying to get copies of the manuals / instruction videos from them. Still waiting....

Anyhow, I hope someone has some experience. I am going to contact Charmhigh directly as I heard rumor that they will be producing a larger feeder version.

Rob.

[thommo]

Charmhigh
I have had lengthy conversations with them.
Yes - they confirm they are 'considering' a much larger feeder stack - 96, but don't expect to see anything this year from them.
I really don't like the Charmhigh interface - 7" touchscreen. I'd much prefer the independence of a keyboard and full display. They say they will provide connections for keyboard, monitor and mouse, but the GUI would remain the same (designed for touch).

My ref to 'same' with these two manufacturers was premature - sorry. I've modified the post.

If these guys thought there was sufficient interest, perhaps they'd start to be more cooperative. If not, that's not a good sign.

There's certainly plenty of interest in the community and things are moving fast. Suppliers and manufacturers need to catch up and become more responsive.

In that regard MICHAEL from SmallSMT is probably one of the better ones, he just needs to stick to his timeframes a lot better (and so do I  ).

[Koen]

If I, a company in Belgium, order your PNP from Romania, you won't charge VAT and I won't pay it. I'll mention it in my VAT report but it will have no impact. VAT total : 0.

If I, a company in Belgium, order another PNP from China, the chinese company won't charge VAT but I will have to pay VAT to Belgium for it. I'll mention it in my VAT report and I will be reimbursed of it. VAT total : 0.

[mrpackethead]

If I, a company in Belgium, order your PNP from Romania, you won't charge VAT and I won't pay it. I'll mention it in my VAT report but it will have no impact. VAT total : 0.

If I, a company in Belgium, order another PNP from China, the chinese company won't charge VAT but I will have to pay VAT to Belgium for it. I'll mention it in my VAT report and I will be reimbursed of it. VAT total : 0.

Your really ruining this tread, this talk of VAT has massively reduced the the signal to noise ratio.. IF you want to talk TAX do it over there ---->

[ServoKit]

Thanks for posting the pics, Rob. The SW looks clearly different to the 802 although there are some similarities. Much better picture quality from the cameras compared to the 802. Can't comment on the responsiveness of the manufacturer because I didn't have to contact them (yet, knock on wood).

Regards, Axel

[Koen]

Hello, is there a solid ~4000USD contender for 0603 and larger placement (no fine pitch) ? Something robust in hardware, software and available within a month ? Seeing the issues in the main pnp threads with both vision, reels and software, I'm thinking of ordering a "simple" but trusted pnp to place easy components and I'll add the four 0.4mm pitch components by hand afterwards. I need 24 reel slots. Thank you !

[l0wside]

You could try the VisionBot, but one month might be not enough.

The TVM802 is in your price range and seems to be able to place 0402 and .5mm pitch reliably. I would give it a try.

Max

[ttsthermaltech]

A couple more pics. It looks as though the threshold setting for vision is only adjustable for each nozzle. I am discussing with them to modify so each feeder can have threshold, and inspection area size / mask. Hopefully they take the advice. It would make things so much better. But otherwise I am really impressed with this machine...

[mikeselectricstuff]

A couple more pics. It looks as though the threshold setting for vision is only adjustable for each nozzle. I am discussing with them to modify so each feeder can have threshold, and inspection area size / mask. Hopefully they take the advice. It would make things so much better. But otherwise I am really impressed with this machine...

Surely that should be per component, not per feeder - vision tweaks need to be part of the component definition.

[ar__systems]

Not everything is done like it should be in chineese s/w. TVM802 does not have per-component adjustment of visual parameters.

[ttsthermaltech]

You are correct, vision settings per component.

A couple more pics. It looks as though the threshold setting for vision is only adjustable for each nozzle. I am discussing with them to modify so each feeder can have threshold, and inspection area size / mask. Hopefully they take the advice. It would make things so much better. But otherwise I am really impressed with this machine...

Surely that should be per component, not per feeder - vision tweaks need to be part of the component definition.

[ar__systems]

YES or NO, per component, or threshold per component?

[harry4516]

.....
I just would love it if ONE person could vouch for the machine / and or Qihe as a company....

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rob.

I purchased the TVM802B two weeks ago, as soon as I entered my data into Aliexpress, my phone was ringing and a guy from Qihe called me.
I talked to him also about the 920, but he recommended to buy the 802 because the 920 is very new and not as stable as it should be.
So I ordered the 802B. It took 7 days from order until delivery, customs tax was abt. 2%, and the usual VAT.
The machine was shipped in a wooden box with lots of foam and came in very good shape.

Now,a week after delivery it is working nicely and does what I need.
But it's not plug&play. It needs some days and nights of headache to setup everything because the manual is very short,I got most
information with try and error. But now this is done and I am very happy with this machine.

[ttsthermaltech]

Thanks Harry for the feedback. Much appreciated.

Tweaking and setup are expected. Ideally, and company would have local support, but since this is from China, one has to expect to be their own tech support. But nice to hear that you are happy with overall quality.

How is software behaving? Any glitches? Gotchas? or so far smooth running?

Also, have you tried vision yet? I would love to get some idea of real world results...

Rob.

.....
I just would love it if ONE person could vouch for the machine / and or Qihe as a company....

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rob.

I purchased the TVM802B two weeks ago, as soon as I entered my data into Aliexpress, my phone was ringing and a guy from Qihe called me.
I talked to him also about the 920, but he recommended to buy the 802 because the 920 is very new and not as stable as it should be.
So I ordered the 802B. It took 7 days from order until delivery, customs tax was abt. 2%, and the usual VAT.
The machine was shipped in a wooden box with lots of foam and came in very good shape.

Now,a week after delivery it is working nicely and does what I need.
But it's not plug&play. It needs some days and nights of headache to setup everything because the manual is very short,I got most
information with try and error. But now this is done and I am very happy with this machine.

[thommo]

Has anyone out there been in touch with the people from QiHe?
What was the experience like?

And, more to the point, has anyone actually received one of their TVM920 machines yet, or placed an order for one?

I'd be really interested to know what the situation is with this new machine. Looks like it has a lot of potential.

[sam512bb]

Has anyone out there been in touch with the people from QiHe?
What was the experience like?

And, more to the point, has anyone actually received one of their TVM920 machines yet, or placed an order for one?

I'd be really interested to know what the situation is with this new machine. Looks like it has a lot of potential.

Good Day Thommo,

Check out a previous post:

I purchased the TVM802B two weeks ago, as soon as I entered my data into Aliexpress, my phone was ringing and a guy from Qihe called me.
I talked to him also about the 920, but he recommended to buy the 802 because the 920 is very new and not as stable as it should be.
So I ordered the 802B. It took 7 days from order until delivery, customs tax was abt. 2%, and the usual VAT.
The machine was shipped in a wooden box with lots of foam and came in very good shape.

Now,a week after delivery it is working nicely and does what I need.
But it's not plug&play. It needs some days and nights of headache to setup everything because the manual is very short,I got most
information with try and error. But now this is done and I am very happy with this machine.

Cheers,

Sam

[thommo]

Hi Sam,

Apologies - I should have said 'other than the previous post'.

The reason is that I, and someone else I know, have been in touch with them about the TVM920 [at around the same time] and were told 'sure - all available and ready to order'. So I just wanted to see if there were others that had shared either one of these alternate experiences.

[sam512bb]

Hi Sam,

Apologies - I should have said 'other than the previous post'.

The reason is that I, and someone else I know, have been in touch with them about the TVM920 [at around the same time] and were told 'sure - all available and ready to order'. So I just wanted to see if there were others that had shared either one of these alternate experiences.

Good day Thommo,

No apologies are necessary!  I kind of thought that you would have seen the previous post, but decided... just in case you missed it.

Cheers,

Sam

[harry4516]

...
How is software behaving? Any glitches? Gotchas? or so far smooth running?
Also, have you tried vision yet? I would love to get some idea of real world results...
Rob.

The software looks stable, no crash so far.
Vision is working very well, it's the most important feature of this machine and is mandatory to place small QFNs.

...
The reason is that I, and someone else I know, have been in touch with them about the TVM920 [at around the same time] and were told 'sure - all available and ready to order'. So I just wanted to see if there were others that had shared either one of these alternate experiences.

my "feeling" during this phone call was, that the person wanted to make a deal, immediately. Maybe this was the reason why the 802 was presented as the best one, because I was asking for this machine.

[thommo]

@harry & @sam
thnx for the response and feedback guys - appreciated

[48X24X48X]

Charmhigh will release a CHMT48VA with north feeder next month. So, that would mean machine could end up with total of 46 feeders.

Saw one of their customer attaching a vibrating feeder (self made) to the CHMT48VA.
But, Charmhigh said they can help to mount them. So, that also means the vibration feeder supported on the software side (to pick from the front edge of the machine).

TVM920

CHMT530P

I personally don't think that either company is building for the other. They look to be mechanical duplicates of one another with vastly different controls.

With the rest of the Yamaha feeder based newer machines, I have seen many DIY machines and even the pneumatic feeder mount selling in various feeder count in China (10, 20, 30, 40, etc).
The mounting head also can be bought and is sort of standard. Hence, if you look at the tiny resolution Charmhigh-Tech CE certification image, you could see future models part number with more feeders like 40, 64, etc.
I do believe all these machines are copies/derivatives or at least originated from these DIY work with better polished software (either Linux or Windows depending what the vendor chose).
Chine is open hardware by default. And I think these machine is progressing way much faster compare to what Openpnp is doing at the moment (I could be wrong because I didn't follow that deeply).
Things are going to be better with all these options available for small makers like us!

[harry4516]

is this vibration feeder available separately ?
Could be a nice add-on for the TVM802

[48X24X48X]

is this vibration feeder available separately ?
Could be a nice add-on for the TVM802

I saw them being sold by a CHMT48VA customer which also became a reseller here.
It does show up as a separate item that cost RMB980. But, at the moment only the Charmhigh-Tech software supports them I guess.

[48X24X48X]

I came across another new machine on Taobao.

It looks like it is a spindle machine with linear guide and servo drives. Also uses the Yamaha CL feeders. Runs on Windows with an industrial SBC inside the machine.
Also supports vibration feeder and it has 4 head with Juki nozzle. Vision of course is included.

The only downside I can see is the maximum 30 feeders (if you use other than 8mm tape, it will be less) and the company is not known to anyone outside of China (yet).
They do seem to make many other manufacturing machines though from their Chinese website.

It's funny how they do comparison with machines like those from Yushengtech and Neodentech.

More and more machines are popping up!!!

EDIT: Anyone wanted to read more on the machine, check out the Taobao page. It looks like they sold quite a number of these compared to other machine now. No, I'm not affiliated with the company.

[Kjelt]

I came across another new machine on Taobao.

Do you know the price, it lists price
¥ 55.00 - 38000.00 which is a bit weird.

[48X24X48X]

Do you know the price, it lists price
¥ 55.00 - 38000.00 which is a bit weird.

They allow you to buy feeders, accessories, and the machine itself separately.

• CNY55 is the Juki nozzle
• CNY650 is the vibration module
• CNY1200 is for the table
• CNY340 for 8mm Yamaha CL feeder, CNY480 for 12mm/16mm feeder, CNY1500 for 24mm feeder. Prices are per unit
• CNY38000 is the machine itself without any feeder

Usually on Taobao buyer can futher put notes on the order. For example you want to buy the CNY55 prized nozzle, you can put a note on the size, 502 for example.

I used Google to translate. 

[Kjelt]

So a complete machine with feeders incl shipping , duties and taxes will set you back at least 10k€.

[harry4516]

which is way too much.
For $10k we can get a TVM920 fully equipped with 56 yamaha feeders.

[sparkswillfly]

I came across another new machine on Taobao.

I believe this is aka SMT330.

There is also a new version chmt48vb that I am considering.

Want to buy a machine this year , nothing ticking all the boxes yet.

[48X24X48X]

which is way too much.
For $10k we can get a TVM920 fully equipped with 56 yamaha feeders.

But, TVM920 is a belt machine at CNY39800.00 without feeder too.
The other is a spindle machine with linear guide but only 30 feeders which I think is the only drawback compared to the TVM920.
Furthermore, it also has vibration module for only CNY650.

The strange thing is when you look at Taobao, this is the only machine that sells in numbers even though it is new compare to the rest.
They are also a manufacturer of multi-zone reflow oven.

[harry4516]

ok, spindle and linear guide is an advantage of this machine.

The only machine with linear guides and spindle and >50 feeders could be the smallsmt VP-2500 oder VP-2800.
They advertise a maximum of 68x 8mm-feeders plus 6x12mm , 5x16mm and 2x24mm, thats a lot.

Unfortunately the smallsmt has some homebrew special feeders, and I know from the TVM802 that this type of feeders is horrible for setup of a new board.
I don't think I would buy a machine without standard feeders again.

I would buy a VP2800HP with Yamaha feeders immediately.

[sparkswillfly]

Tvm920 is a belt drive machine, but has closed loop encoders, right?  So how much of an issue is that?

[mrpackethead]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

[harry4516]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

do you know if the TVM920 has space for custom trays ? There are so little pictures in the internet. Some close views would be great.

[thommo]

G'day Harry,

Yes - in its current release there is provision for up to 10 different Tray profiles/components.

We're actually in discussion with the QiHe engineering guys at present with a view to increasing this qty [substantially], and they seem really open and co-operative - which is a great and positive sign!

The only other limit is the area remaining, after the bare PCB space is subtracted. So, pretty much the entire machine platform [inside the transport system constraints].

Hope this info assists and is helpful. We'll will report the outcome of these discussions once confirmed.

Peter

BTW - I have placed a copy of this response into:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/pick-place-machinetvm920/
as it seems more appropriate to me.

This is also where I will post the update following the discussion [see above]

Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.

do you know if the TVM920 has space for custom trays ? There are so little pictures in the internet. Some close views would be great.

[TJ232]

I am also looking for a small P&P for the lab, not so interested in speed but in precision as will be used for proto/small pre-production/testing&validation batches. If it can be also not to noisy will be even better.

Has anybody reliably placed IC's in QFN or similar size packages? These days such a size/type has become almost a must...

What are the best options for now for a low cost P&P machine that can do it: TVM802? SmallSMT? Neoden? TVM920? Other?

SmallSMT/Michael are saying that their new machine will have release date in January 2017.

Any new interesting P&P machines around?

[harry4516]

---
Has anybody reliably placed IC's in QFN or similar size packages? These days such a size/type has become almost a must...
---

I use the TVM802B and I have QFNs on most of my boards, see the picture.

You see that the TVM802 can place QFNs accurately, but In difference to expensive professional machines this needs regularly adjustments.
Before placing a batch of boards I place the QFN on a sample board with doublesided adhesive tape. After placing I check it under the microskope
and adjust the settings ( in steps of 1/10mm) until it fits perfectly.Then I start placing the other boards.
Sometimes it is required to correct a few parts manually before soldering, so its not a perfect machine but it really saves a lot of time.

[TJ232]

Thank you Harry,

Looks more than decent. Depends of the level of constant adjustment you need to play with to not end with a fancy 4k USD (or more) twizzer (in terms of average speed per board, ofcourse ).

[technotronix]

Is there any new update came in pic and place machine?

[l0wside]

As the thread starter, I might have overlooked some (new) machine. If anyone want to have another machine included, send me a PM or add a comment to the Google Doc.

Max

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just noticed this one. 4 heads, but does not use the Neoden4 trick of imaging all 4 in one go, so slower.
Uses Yamaha CL feeders and Juki nozzles - this seems to be becoming quite common.
Claims to be able to do 1200mm PCBs but looks like it may be manual rather than auto conveyor.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-and-Place-Machine-SMT330-PCB-Pick-Place-Machine-0402-0603-0805-1206-SMT/32702619188.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.350.ClyrT0&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10056_10065_10068_10055_10054_10069_10059_10073_10017_10071_10070_10060_10061_10052_10062_10053_10050_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=85ac63d3-f2e1-4dce-8adf-38676f024471

[l0wside]

Thanks, sheet is updated.
A number of questions remains unresolved. I have no idea who the actual manufacturer is (Wenzhou Yingxing Technology seems to be a dealer only). Regarding feeders, they have little to no data. I was no overly eager to watch the YT videos to find out more. Also, they do not specifiy a minimum pitch, only a placement precision of 25µm, which seems overly optimistic to me.

[Prohiottoka]

We just bought a CHMT 530p machine with 4 heads. Does anyone interested in our initial experiences? Hopefully we will use it in production in a few days.
We are replacing a heavily modified Madell machine which we used for 4 years. I hope it will work better than the madell, which I had to rebuild in order to be able to use it.

[mikeselectricstuff]

We just bought a CHMT 530p machine with 4 heads. Does anyone interested in our initial experiences?

Yes please!

[TJ232]

Yes, it will be great some real feedback also for the CHMT 530p model. Was also keeping an eye on it but so far no real usage feedback about .

[Prohiottoka]

We received the machine today, first run will be tomorrow. After that I'll write more.
Right now it seems OK for the price.
The build quality is OK, nothing special. It was cheap and it has some cheap build choices.
For example there is no oil lubrication in the compressed air line. But it seems to me that it is necessary for the feeders, so I'll have to add one later.
They gave a jar of grease for the machine... I did not found yet the greasing points, it seems odd.
The timing belt (or I don't know which is the exact word in english) also seams cheap. We received spare parts, so I'll check it later.

Otherwise the machine works out of the box. The manual is OK except it seems impossible to start the first run based only on that
But the support is really good, we received several youtube links. And they are available a lot on skype also.

The display is way too small for my taste, but it has no effect on the usability of the machine.
It is hard to use the touch display for fine movements, but in the regular use there is no need of that, so I can live with it.

If everything goes well, it will use it in production next week, so I'll have actual info of the speed of the machine.

[Prohiottoka]

Our machine us up and running.
Here is a video of the first board: click. I reduced the speed of the machine to 70%, so it can work faster.

Now I think the software of the machine is the biggest issue. But we need more time to test the reliability of the mechanics.

Just an example: there are toggle buttons where the title of the buttons means the current setting, and other toggle buttons where the title means what will be the new setting if you push the button.
It's quite confusing that the same bright red X icon means no vision in one button, and allowing the placement of the part in an other button.

But they did not lie about the speed, so it's a pleasant surprise. 4000 parts/hour can be achieved with the cameras.
The software is capable of optimizing the pick up order, but of course you have to decide the order and place of the feeders and the nozzles.

In 2 or 3 months we will need another machine, probably we will buy another one. This price is a bargain.

[Prohiottoka]

about my last post:
I jumped to a quick, and wrong conclusion
There is nothing wrong with the logic of the software... it is just bad translation After checking all the videos and the manuals...  it is clearly just mistranslated texts.

[Gary.M]

The pricing on their website looks good. Does the price include any feeders? What extra did you have to buy?

[JuKu]

An update: LitePlacer now has automatic nozzle changer, costs 1699€ and the software is open source.

[Prohiottoka]

The pricing on their website looks good. Does the price include any feeders? What extra did you have to buy?

We bought extra nozzles, and feeders. There is no feeder included in the price.
The machine contains the vacuum pump.

[Spikee]

NeoDen 5
http://pickandplace-neoden.en.made-in-china.com/product/ReAxBJYkVNGL/China-Neoden-5-Visual-Pick-and-Place-Machine.html

They are integrating their two part feeder now in one portable feeder. That can be plugged in like the CL feeders.
Expected release Q1 /Q2 2017.

Changes vs neoden 4:

Code: [Select]

A.All-in-one feeder,same as the one that you have seen in our factory last time,the feeder will be used electronic all-in-one type,NeoDen will offer 8mm/12mm/16mm firstly,then will consider 24mm and 32mm for customizing in the near future to meet most of the requirements of customers if possible;
B.The bracket of feeder will be used removable type,convenient for users to install and change the tape reel;
C.The up-looking camera will be used 4 cameras,to save the time while photographing,ensure higher production capacity finally;
D.The bottom cover will be increased by 12cm in height,convenient for agents and end-users to do the service and change spares once problems happened;
E.The weight of working table will be increased,to ensure the stability while machine working;
F.The plastic cover will be improved to be stronger and unbreakable;
G.The machine will stop working once plastic cover opened;
H.Tricolour light will be equipped on the machine,green light indicates machine working normally,yellow light indicates machine may have some errors,red light indicates machine have some problems.
Price is unknown at this moment. But based on that above link 7500 USD for machine with no conveyor, no stand and no included feeders would be a good guess.
Changes seem minor. Unless you plan on changing feeders very often I don't see much of and advantage. The new feeders
might also be a bit more expensive than the yamaha CL (copies) (pure speculation).

--
The cons of these customized feeders is that if a product goes uit of production or if you want to upgrade your machine
you will be stuck with them. With yamaha feeders you can migrate to many diffrent PNP brands or even to a yamaha machine.

[Prohiottoka]

I've been asked to write a quick follow up about the CHMT-530P4.

We are definitely happy with it. There are problems of course, but we can live with it.
We are using it for a while now, but we did not tested the limits of the machine. The finest components what we place with it are 0603 and sot363. You need to check the board before reflowing, the machine does make mistakes. (with using the camera function)

You don't want to order the feeders from them if you plan on placing fine components (or at least we did not receive the good ones) They are working, but not calibrated at all.  But again for that price, it can still worth it.

I believe they are in the beginning of making a fine product. With minor improvements the machine can be much better. And we know they are working on improvements. So maybe what you can buy now is even better than what we bought.

We plan to buy another machine in the beginning of 2017. I think we will buy another one from them.

[cmantunes]

There are problems of course, but we can live with it.

Would you mind sharing the problems, even if minor, you are experiencing?

Thanks!

Carlos

[Prohiottoka]

We are having a conversation with the supplier, and they promised us to send sw updates based on our suggestions.
So until we can test the new sw version, I don't want to complain about it in a public forum We have placed more than 1 000 000 parts, we are still satisfied with the price/performance ratio.

I think the biggest hw faults are:
- there is no lubrication for the feeders.
- there are only 2 vacuum sensors for the 4 heads.

There are problems of course, but we can live with it.

Would you mind sharing the problems, even if minor, you are experiencing?

Thanks!

Carlos

[mikeselectricstuff]

- there is no lubrication for the feeders.

You need to be careful with lubricant near a feeder, as paper tapes shed dust, which can mix with oil and form a sticky goo

[cmantunes]

I think the biggest hw faults are:
- there is no lubrication for the feeders.
- there are only 2 vacuum sensors for the 4 heads.

Thank you!

One quick question: is the dpv file a text file, something one could create with an Eagle script, for example?

[arcircuit]

Wanting to know if anyone knows of someone who would come out to our shop to help us learn how to use this the first time. We have a very old pnp machine and it will definitely be a learning curve for us.

[Prohiottoka]

Yes it is text. And quite understandable, so I think you can do it.

[markk]

Hi everybody

big thanks to the forum! I've spent hours if not days here and learned a lot.

Background

I'm an enthusiast hobbyist doing quite complex circuits. Up until now I hand placed everything using the pictured cartesian guide. I'm awful at it! It took me 10 hours to place these two boards (mostly 0603, 0.5mm pitch, 400 parts per board, 100 different ones, yes, it needs simplifying). Paste melted to puddles!  Had to do lot of rework. Circuit mostly works though 


Now I'm in the market for a Pick and Place machine. I'd like to do prototypes (two, three boards) and very small runs (max twenty boards per go, I guess).

Main dilemma

I'm a bit confused by the (lack of) distinction between prototyping and production.

Everybody is talking about prototyping, but it seems to me all the machines are more or less straight production machines (or try to be). All the talk is about reel feeders and while there is the odd tray or cut strip holder available, nobody in the commercial market seriously seems to address the fact that one has to place say 50 different parts from small quantity feeders. 

Like I said I'm not a professional but I can't imagine real pros will buy a full reel of parts when they prototype some new design, do they? I typically buy some 10 parts perhaps (costly ICs) that's a very short cut strip. Even if the parts are very cheap, does it make sense to buy a full reel for an odd value precision programming resistor?

Even if the pros don't bother about the cost or the storage space (or the environment), is it worth the hassle to fiddle with the reels? (remember: you also have to unload another reel you will surely miss later!)

Even if your machine has cassettes, is it worth having a gazillion spare ones for every odd part? Even if the cassettes only cost $50, this cost veeery quickly adds up!

So I'm a bit astonished that none of the commercial machines seem to address this in a practical way.

What am I missing? 

OpenPNP vision assisted feeders

Only OpenPNP really seems to go practical. That’s the way I envision feeders for prototyping:


Or even lose parts:


The problem: nobody offers a quality assembled OpenPNP compatible machine. The liteplacer kit is the only reasonable option for those that really don't want to get sidetracked constructing their own machine (you still have to assemble the kit, buy power supply and cabling, build a working table with up-camera inset, etc.). It sure is a great machine to get started but having zero reel feeders is just as bad as having only reel feeders. Also I wonder if the rather low speed will be a limiting factor.

OpenPNP on commercial machines

I see some commercial machines have been converted, mostly due to their built-in software being 

The TVM920 port is noteworthy (watch from 0:55 for speed):
https://youtu.be/Es060QcynB0 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/UA8h0TvXpKg

The machine also has a large working area for custom feeders, trays etc. But it is too expensive for me. Especially if you include shippings costs and a reasonable stash of feeder cassettes to go with it. The machine is also very large and incredibly heavy and it requires rear access space.

If anybody knows another port, please point it out to me, thanks! 

Reference:
http://openpnp.org/hardware/


Porting another machine

Looking at the other machines, there seem to be some "cost stepping effects". You get the ~$3000-$4000 class and then nothing and then the $7000-$10,000 class.

The lower class seems to make you unhappy in the long run, it seems, judging from this forum. Even former enthusiast are ground down. Too much fiddling with the cheap feeders? Too little space for cut strips?

The higher class simply seems over-engineered for ridiculous speeds. If the user reports in this forum are in any way representative, this top speed will hardly matter as the machine will be idling most of the time while the user-slash-baby-sitter is wrestling with some of the many, many feeder, cover tape, nozzle and whatnot problems.

If I understand things correctly, the speed or rather acceleration, jerk, snap, crackle and pop all work against precision and in order to still comply, they have to throw tougher mechanics at the machine, increasing cost, increasing weight, more cost, more weight...

The market seems to design for "sports car" emotions, not for function   

Neither class is right for OpenPNP. Or am I missing something? 

Any insight here would be very welcome!


Missing combination

There should be a ready to buy machine that combines a wide but light mechanical construction with a reasonable count of cassette feeders (i.e. Yamaha CL). Perhaps as an addon module. The machine should be "desk against wall" compatible, reasonable depth, cassettes loaded from the front. A machine two persons can carry through normal doorways.

Why not put some barcode style visual rulers on the PCB holder, all around. Make up for any "wackiness" due to mechanical slightness with full scale top camera assisted calibration every once in a while. Make those rulers of PCB material and they'd even be temperature compensated.


My own evaluation

It is now clear that there is currently no ideal machine. Should I give it up? Or choose from a less than ideal machine?

Personally I currently favor one of the SMALLSMT machines. Straight from the above spec, the VP-2500LED seems to be the "best of the bad" matches. The 4 head machine has 16 CL feeder slots and sports a large moving area it seems. Sadly cassettes load from the rear. Also I don't need 4 heads (if there is a nozzle changer). Again the machine seems over-engineered for my needs. The cost is way above of what I originally envisioned.

The VP-2500DP-CL16 has only two heads and adds two banks of push feeders.  Perhaps I could order it with only one push feeder. Or remove one later and keep it for future/changed needs. This would add some space for cut strips.

The VP-2000S would be the financially sensible compromise. But it seems just too small. No cassette feeders.

Michael from SMALLSMT has promised to release a HAL DLL that would allow porting OpenPNP. I'm currently negotiating to get the API before I buy the machine, no luck so far.

The software that comes with the SMALLSMT machines seems very good compared to all the competitors, having many of the features that are missing for others. The machine control is optimized and very fast and I see it could work very well for production.

But - again - not so well for prototyping . I'd rather use OpenPNP's cool ad hoc vision capabilities (listed above) and live with the simpler, "stop-and-think-between-moves", machine control.

Have I missed an option?

Thanks for all responses!

-Markk

[mikeselectricstuff]

Automated P&P for 1-off prototypes is rarely useful unless there are a large number of relatively few parts.
The time taken to set everything up will usually be way longer than to manually place, once you have a good manual system.
It certainly isn't useful enough for it to be worth anyone selling a machine aimed at 1-offs.

Manually placing with a foot-operated vacuum pen can be pretty quick - couple of seconds per part when placing parts from the same strip on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

Think about what you need to to when manually placing a board, up to the point where you actually place a part - find the right part, take parts out of tapes, make sure it's the right way round etc.   
For an automated system you not only need to do that, but them tell the system where it goes, and put it somewhere it can pick it up.

For more complex PCBs, a small P&P can be useful for placing things that there are lots of - decoupling caps, pullup resistors, LED arrays etc. but for anything there's only a few of, doing it manually is going to be much quicker, with a little practice.

[JuKu]

Automated P&P for 1-off prototypes is rarely useful unless there are a large number of relatively few parts.

Actually, I found the exact opposite. If you have a just a few part types and your software can give you placement printout for each part (mine can), it would be fast. But if you have tens of different parts, most of the time is spent hunting the spot where to place it. Having a computer on the table helps somewhat, but it is still "type a part number, look the screen, find the same spot on board" -game.

... on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

With prototypes this is not the case, by definition.

The time taken to set everything up will usually be way longer than to manually place, ...

Depends. To assemble a prototype, you need to get the parts out from your storage to your work area. no way around this. the exception are parts you use all the time, like bypass caps - those are likely ready anyway. Then it is all about the software. If the software needs part size, part heights and so on, or you must use and setup feeders, it could indeed be tedious.

Think about what you need to to when manually placing a board, up to the point where you actually place a part - find the right part, take parts out of tapes, make sure it's the right way round etc.   
For an automated system you not only need to do that, but them tell the system where it goes, and put it somewhere it can pick it up.

Pessimist. :-) Find the tape, put tape somewhere so you can handle it (like with double sided tape to a table or manual tray, place the strip tape to a holder etc). Remove cover tape. These you need to do anyway, manual or automatic. For a machine that has prototype workflow, you then only need to tell which pre-defined spot the tape is (on LitePlacer, two mouse clicks). Knowing which way around it is, where it goes etc is something that the machine already knows from your data.

Besides, not all of us can handle 0603s or 0402s manually to begin with. (I can do 0603s but not 0402s anymore, and I need do everything SMD under a microscope anyway - another thing that makes manual work tedious for me).

(Disclaimer: I'm the guy who built LitePlacer, a pick and place machine specifically for prototypes. Why? Because https://www.liteplacer.com/about/the-story/.)

[nisma]

If doing one off pcb, it is crucial to not neet a lot rework for importing the data.
You need a layout tool that emits real protel centroids. Eagle, Altrium and possibly (not verified) Kicad is fine, Diptrace and EasyEDA as example are know
to not work.
Further it saves a lot of time to have a laser barcode reader with the capability to allows enter function keys.
Annother thing to consider is that you need the ability to split the design to as example 4 or 5 assembly steps.
This for allowing you to setup a limited number of parts, and during it's assembly, you continue to setup the next lot of parts.
Prerequirement is that you'r vision pipeline is setup correctly and bulledproof if using openPnP.
Cost saving could be having auger type dispenser for saving stensil costs.

[nisma]

Back to question, for prototyping, having a big area is really a bonus. Liteplacer works.
Liteplacer have a cost of 1777€+shipping , chinese kit costs 455€ shipped.
I know it is 1699 + cable chain (29) + terminal block (1.9) + ferrule set incl. crimper (26) + nuts(13) + 4x ferrite nut(2.3 each) that makes 1777.8€  Missing is the better uplooking HD camera , roughtly 1800€.
The big difference, with liteplacer you have aftersales support, with chinese kit not at all
including openpnp support list, that explitly don't give support for setting up motion or other important
prerequisites requiring to run PnP software.
If you know someone that is able to setup cnc machines, it is possible to go with the cheaper kit, otherwise it's hard.

[rx8pilot]

Automated P&P for 1-off prototypes is rarely useful unless there are a large number of relatively few parts.
The time taken to set everything up will usually be way longer than to manually place, once you have a good manual system.
It certainly isn't useful enough for it to be worth anyone selling a machine aimed at 1-offs.

Manually placing with a foot-operated vacuum pen can be pretty quick - couple of seconds per part when placing parts from the same strip on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

As I am reading this....I am manually placing a 1-off PCB while I sit right next to my perfectly capable P&P system. Plain and simple - it is faster to manually assemble with my vacuum pen and cut tape holders. Way faster, in fact. Before I got my line up and running, I hand assembled everything so I got that process dialed in. I spent around $500 on assembly specific tools and got pretty quick at setting up and placing.

Like Mike said, that may not be true if you have a board with a whole lot of the same part.

[mikeselectricstuff]

... on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

With prototypes this is not the case, by definition.

It is if you only designed it a few days before.

[ar__systems]

... on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

With prototypes this is not the case, by definition.

It is if you only designed it a few days before.

No way you are going to remember locations of resistors on the board of 100 parts after even few days I usually don't get to assemble boards after just few days any way.

[rx8pilot]

I make a PDF with color coordinated parts. The color matches the label on the pickup tray. Once I got the template - it does not take long to make one for an all new design and it makes the process very easy. I made many 100's of double sided high-density PCB's this way before I got my P&P machine up. For a true one-off effort - I simply pull up the layout on the computer screen right in front of me and start going. Click the part to ID - place the part. Repeat until all parts are down.

[ar__systems]

Click the part to ID - place the part. Repeat until all parts are down.

Pretty much the way I work. Except that I have a BOM application that sends command to CAD s/w to highlight all parts of the given nominal.

PDF thing is good but there are not too many clearly distinct colors. Similar colors will create a room for confusion...

[markk]

Thanks for all the answers and insights. Explains a lot.

Manually placing with a foot-operated vacuum pen can be pretty quick - couple of seconds per part when placing parts from the same strip on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

Wow, it surely takes me much, much longer even if I know perfectly where the part has to go. And most of the time I don't - or I'm too unsure not to check. After one two hours of doing this, it becomes a pain. Muscles tense up, eyes hurt with straining, etc. Solder paste turns to puddles. 

... for anything there's only a few of, doing it manually is going to be much quicker, with a little practice.

Well, I fear it's more about talent and patience and perhaps old age   
(though I never was the "manual" nor the "precision" guy... guess, there's a reason I went into software in my professional life)

... If you have a just a few part types and your software can give you placement printout for each part (mine can), it would be fast. But if you have tens of different parts, most of the time is spent hunting the spot where to place it. Having a computer on the table helps somewhat, but it is still "type a part number, look the screen, find the same spot on board" -game.

I make a PDF with color coordinated parts...

Yes, I made my own little helper. An interactive HTML tool for EAGLE. You can click on the parts list to highlight the parts or click on the part on the PCB, to scroll to the parts list line and highlight it:


I just put it on github, see here:
http://makr.zone/pcb-manual-placement-helper-in-html/39/
https://github.com/markmaker/pcb-placer

Without this I would be completely lost. But sadly it does not place the parts by itself, does it? 

Find the tape, put tape somewhere so you can handle it (like with double sided tape to a table or manual tray, place the strip tape to a holder etc). Remove cover tape. These you need to do anyway, manual or automatic. For a machine that has prototype workflow, you then only need to tell which pre-defined spot the tape is (on LitePlacer, two mouse clicks). Knowing which way around it is, where it goes etc is something that the machine already knows from your data.

Besides, not all of us can handle 0603s or 0402s manually to begin with. (I can do 0603s but not 0402s anymore, and I need do everything SMD under a microscope anyway - another thing that makes manual work tedious for me).

(Disclaimer: I'm the guy who built LitePlacer, a pick and place machine specifically for prototypes. Why? Because https://www.liteplacer.com/about/the-story/.)

That's exactly the way I feel. Thanks!

I'm more and more inclined to buy a liteplacer. If there were some real work videos of it placing complex boards, with some DFN, QFN stuff perhaps - ideally also with OpenPNP/bottom vision - it would help a lot to come to a conclusion. But all I keep finding is "demo", "first place" or "work in progress this or that". Like nobody actually really finished building/improving their machines and finally made some boards! (same phenomenon with OpenPNP in general, actually).

Thanks again,
Mark

[Kjelt]

That looks great Mark, use it from Safari on an iPad so to put it near the pcb and it would be a supertool 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yes, I made my own little helper. An interactive HTML tool for EAGLE. You can click on the parts list to highlight the parts or click on the part on the PCB, to scroll to the parts list line and highlight it:

Seriously ? Eagle can't highlight all parts of the same type by itself? From what I've seen it eems like you have to DIY pretty much anything useful in Eagle..

[rx8pilot]

That is Eagle. It sucks beyond comprehension.



Sent from my horrible mobile....

[jmelson]

Seriously ? Eagle can't highlight all parts of the same type by itself? From what I've seen it eems like you have to DIY pretty much anything useful in Eagle..

Hmm, Protel 99 can't do that in one click either.  You can do that pretty easily with a couple clicks to get into global editing, but it sure isn't one click.  To use it as an assembly guide, you'd really want it to be one click.

Jon

[Spikee]

Automated P&P for 1-off prototypes is rarely useful unless there are a large number of relatively few parts.
The time taken to set everything up will usually be way longer than to manually place, once you have a good manual system.
It certainly isn't useful enough for it to be worth anyone selling a machine aimed at 1-offs.

Manually placing with a foot-operated vacuum pen can be pretty quick - couple of seconds per part when placing parts from the same strip on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

Think about what you need to to when manually placing a board, up to the point where you actually place a part - find the right part, take parts out of tapes, make sure it's the right way round etc.   
For an automated system you not only need to do that, but them tell the system where it goes, and put it somewhere it can pick it up.

For more complex PCBs, a small P&P can be useful for placing things that there are lots of - decoupling caps, pullup resistors, LED arrays etc. but for anything there's only a few of, doing it manually is going to be much quicker, with a little practice.

I use my cheapish pick and place exclusively for prototypes. Generally these have between 50 and 150 passives. With a run of about 2-10 boards.
Since about 80-90% of the placement is passives anyway I just run it trough the PNP. And do the small IC and whatever by hand.
This combination works out great for me.

The situation before was that I / my client had to spend about 300 - 700 usd for small batch assembly in China. And we have pretty much always have issues with this.
Be it small confusions on their end, or messing up parts / plain replacing them with other shit and later on you are debugging why it is not working. Which is also quite expensive.
+ Th lead times are generally long as in 2-4 weeks.

Doing it youself might not be cheaper perse. But everything is in my hands. I can assembly 1 board and test it. And do a new iteration and new assembly 2-4 days later.
A complete run for Ordering parts,  boards, stencils and assembly -> basic test -> shipping to firmware guy / client takes about 1-1.5 weeks.

That is where the strength is with these kind of low end machines In my mind / experience. Even with a reasonable hourly rate as a western freelancer in this area is is about the same price / slightly more expensive to do it yourself than to get a company in Asia do it for you.

The risk is so much lower and the possible issues / communication time / problem fixing time can easily double the amount that you pay for assembly due to the designer having to put extra time and effort in it. I think many people underestimate this possible hidden cost.
 

[JPlocher]

I am a hardware/software engineer in California who develops custom electronics for hobby use.  I produce boards with 603 and 805 components, with no 402s or smaller, 20 to 100 components per board, with a board size sweet spot of 10cmx10cm in job runs of 5-30, several hundred per year.  I am looking at a PnP machine, a stencil printer and possibly an oven (my PID toaster oven works fine, but, well, its a toaster  )

The learning curve for PNP machines seems to be: read thru several days worth of pages here on EEVBlog, watch videos, master Alibaba and Google Translate, do it again because it didn't sink in the first time, bemoan the fact that there is no commercial offering that supports openPNP, then cogitate on it all...

Having done so, I'm coming to a few observations I'd like to validate:

• There is a ~$5k range of systems and a ~$10K range, the difference being primarily drag feeders -vs- Yamaha pneumatic
• Cost goes up with the number of feeders required (for both types...)
• Vision is great, but it competes with placement speed - and isn't really needed for larger passives (etc)
• The provided PnP software is functional, but not very usable - and each vendor has a different, large list of issues. 
• Hardware is generally good to great, but the software limits how well it can be used.
• It is a small world, with vendors and manufacturers all intermingling their product lines and trying to clone/copy the good stuff while improving on perceived shortfalls.

The price point for a usable system (PnP, feeders, Printer, Oven, shipping, spares,...)  is several thousand more than the PnP machine itself:

• $7,200 - $13,000 4 head QiHe TVM920 (Juki/Yamaha) embedded Windows
• $5,000 - $ 8,500 4 head CHMT 530P4 (Juki/Yamaha) embedded Linux
• $4,600 - $ 6,430 2 head Qihe 802B (proprietary nozzles and drag feeders) external PC/WinXP?

The smallSMT systems fit in there at the high end, with their new VP3000 systems looking to come in closer to $15-$20k
The Neoden4 (at ~10k+) looks to be the best hardware combined with crappy feeders and the worst software.

(Probably overly generalizing), I'd say the testimonials here from TVM920 and CHMT530P4 owners seem relatively happy and satisfied, while the Neoden and 802 class owners have more frustration with the software, feeders and component handling.

If the above isn't too overly simplified, the choice seem to really be between the CHMT530P4 and the Qihe TVM920, with the price difference mostly attributable to number of feeders supported by the 920 (56 -vs-30)

Is there anything in the EEVBlog collective mind's experience that would swing the pointer one way or the other, if feeder quantity wasn't a factor?

  -John

[rx8pilot]

Automated P&P for 1-off prototypes is rarely useful unless there are a large number of relatively few parts.
The time taken to set everything up will usually be way longer than to manually place, once you have a good manual system.
It certainly isn't useful enough for it to be worth anyone selling a machine aimed at 1-offs.

Manually placing with a foot-operated vacuum pen can be pretty quick - couple of seconds per part when placing parts from the same strip on a board you're familiar enough with to know where they go without looking it up.

Think about what you need to to when manually placing a board, up to the point where you actually place a part - find the right part, take parts out of tapes, make sure it's the right way round etc.   
For an automated system you not only need to do that, but them tell the system where it goes, and put it somewhere it can pick it up.

For more complex PCBs, a small P&P can be useful for placing things that there are lots of - decoupling caps, pullup resistors, LED arrays etc. but for anything there's only a few of, doing it manually is going to be much quicker, with a little practice.

I have done the whole range from manual to P&P - this is generally a pretty good description of reality. Before I had a P&P, I used a variety of methods to get parts on the boards but spent a considerable amount of time getting the manual process about as fast as it could possibly be. As it turns out - after you get a system worked out and dialed in - you can populate even some fairly complex boards faster than you can even get the feeders loaded on a P&P. After that, you would still have to program, tweak, run a double-stick tape pass, etc. For me, the biggest improvement was how I organized the parts ahead of time and how I set them up for the manual assembly. The first few boards felt like slow painful death. After some time, it was not so bad. As my little operation grew, I had days where I was placing parts 10-12 hours straight which at an average of 400-500 parts per hour on a REALLY good day (you have to include breaks).

The pick and place system initially made it way worse - especially when I needed to do 2-3pcs of 5 different designs. It probably took 4x the time at least because I was always fiddling with something. After getting the P&P workflow figured out including the myriad of quirks that every system has - things sped up for the small batches, but not by very much. The biggest improvement by far was my own personal sanity. It is easier to deal with a P&P process all day than picking up tiny parts repetitively for 10-12 hours. I still, of course, wanted more speed which required more process development and more feeders. My current setup represents a lot of effort in process development to achieve a useful assembly throughput. One critical element for me was to have a LOT of feeders so that I can have 4-5 jobs loaded and ready to roll at any given moment.

The last new design I did (last week) was the first time I attempted P&P assembly of a prototype - it was probably about the same effort as doing it manually. The good news is that the prototype most likely will only have a handful of minor changes before I run 50 of them. The machine is 98% ready now for the final design. If I only did prototypes - my P&P would be a total waste of time. If I only had a handful of feeders, it would be a waste of time. The only reason it is a good thing is becuase I put a TON of effort into getting it all worked out an have a lot of feeders that afford some flexibility and effeciency. Also, I got a used commercial system - a fixer upper. Although it has some years on it - it was designed to run 24/7 and is quite consistant. After I figured out its personality - it just works even with BGA's and 0201's. Big capacitors, big inductors, trays, cut tape, tubes, etc - no problem.

[jmelson]

I have done the whole range from manual to P&P - this is generally a pretty good description of reality. Before I had a P&P, I used a variety of methods to get parts on the boards but spent a considerable amount of time getting the manual process about as fast as it could possibly be. As it turns out - after you get a system worked out and dialed in - you can populate even some fairly complex boards faster than you can even get the feeders loaded on a P&P. After that, you would still have to program, tweak, run a double-stick tape pass, etc.

I have a big P&P machine here (Philips CSM84).  i never "tweak" positions, and only use the double stick tape when making calibration adjustments to the machine.  I just did a special job for a customer that was only 4 boards, but they had about 300 parts/board.  It did take me about an hour to set up the feeders and load them on the machine.  But, after that, I cranked out each board in about 6 minutes, including the paste stencil application.  No errors, no possibility of parts in the wrong place, etc.  These were boards I'd made before, so I had the solder stencils, P&P program and all ready to go.

I also don't manually program the machine.  I wrote a C program to read in the placement file from the CAD system and write out the file for the P&P machine.  All I have to do is decide what part to put in which feeder location.

Now, for one-offs, I would not use the P&P machine, but for even 4 modestly complex boards, there's no question let the machine do it!

Jon

[rx8pilot]

I did not mean that I tweak the positions, just all the other things. Like I got some tapes where the parts were rotated 90deg from the last few times I ran the same parts. There are other little things, that need checking and small changes. Any new parts that have not yet been defined have to be entered. So far, in 18 months, I have not yet set up a new design that did not have something that needed some attention.

In relative terms, I am new to P&P and still have a lot to learn. So far, I have figured out how to automate the programming so I never have to do any of that manual. I also (recently) synchronized our internal part numbers with the CAD system so that it is a few keystrokes to get from design to a programmed machine. If faced with 4 boards that are 300 parts - I would certainly setup the machine for it. Not sure how many unique parts you are talking about, but I doubt I could get the machine placement ready in an hour. By the time I find/organize parts, load a feeder and verify with the BOM, theta noted, etc....it seems to be about 5mins per part (loading the feeder is maybe 90 seconds). Then I get them in the machine, and verify that I did not swap the 100nf and 10nf caps, which of course is an easy mistake. So 20 parts, programming, checking, verify - maybe 2-3hrs at my current speed for the 1st board.

[jmelson]

In relative terms, I am new to P&P and still have a lot to learn. So far, I have figured out how to automate the programming so I never have to do any of that manual. I also (recently) synchronized our internal part numbers with the CAD system so that it is a few keystrokes to get from design to a programmed machine. If faced with 4 boards that are 300 parts - I would certainly setup the machine for it. Not sure how many unique parts you are talking about, but I doubt I could get the machine placement ready in an hour. By the time I find/organize parts, load a feeder and verify with the BOM, theta noted, etc....it seems to be about 5mins per part (loading the feeder is maybe 90 seconds). Then I get them in the machine, and verify that I did not swap the 100nf and 10nf caps, which of course is an easy mistake. So 20 parts, programming, checking, verify - maybe 2-3hrs at my current speed for the 1st board.

I use a lot of the same parts on different boards (currently, I am making about 15 different boards).  So, most of the part orientation is built into my program that converts the file formats, and the list of parts that is fed to it.

I've been doing this since 2007, and learning how to be more efficient about it.
The only part that I ever had to change orientation on was when switching to a different 4-pin optocoupler that was put in the tape 180 different.  otherwise, there are JEDEC standards for part orientation in tapes, so almost everybody always does it the same way.  (Sometimes I change between parts in tubes and parts on tape, and that entails a 90 degree change in the program.  But, everything seems to be moving toward tapes, now.)

Jon

[mikeselectricstuff]

IME probably the biggest time-saver is to make sure that your PCB parts library is set up so that part names and, in particular, rotations relative to the tape, are consistent with what the P&P machine uses.
That way you only need to verify rotations the first time you use a part - after that you know it will be the right way round.

Then write some simple software that takes the PCB software's P&P file and converts it into the P&P machine's native format. Add fiducials as components with pick/place points, so your import utility can include the board references in the P&P file.

You want to have different part types for the same size of chip resistors, caps, polyfuses, LEDs etc., as the different parts of the same nominal type may have different vision requirements.

Try to minimise the BOM  as much as possible to reduce feeders.

Aside from loading parts into feeders, my job setup time is typically 5-10 minutes max. The thing that takes the most time is setting up a new part that needs the vision parameters setting up - if there's only a few new parts I'd usually hand-place them.


 

[rx8pilot]

On my last design, I did a lot of that legwork Mike just described. Really looking forward to my next design to see how well it works. To make things a bit more challenging, I am transitioning to 0402/0201 from 0805/0603. My remaining stock of old designs use big parts and all the new use the little stuff. Lots of feeder changes from one size to another, but only a limited number left.

Can hardly wait til I have flushed all the old boards.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[mrpackethead]

I concur with mikes comments.     I actually use our PNP lines for prototypes yes, one offs.. we've got it down to the point that unless it was just a handful of parts then it just not worth it.   This is for a couple of reasons.

(a) our desings are using parts that are allready on the machines..   Weve been really careful about pcking parts that are all ready there.

(b) our librarys partnames etc all match what are already on the PNP line.

(c) programmign the machines is easy, just pass the PNP files from atltium to some python code ( via a web server ) it splits it top and bottom, and also between machines ( we have two machines inline )..   

(d) we have a really strict way about how we setup our pcb panels with tooling, and fids and all that stuff.   

On our machines theres a couple of manual changes on the rails that need to be made to swap between boards.

Our system will also tell me if there is enough stock to run the job, and where additional parts are ( if we have them in stock )..   And for jobs that have one offs where we will only have a few parts for a one off, then we can DNP it really easily )..

its taken a LOT of time and effort to get here, but its paid off.  But the efficiency gain only occurs when to start right at design.

The next task is to interface the serial ports of the the machiens via a terminal server, so we can program them 'online'.. 

[rx8pilot]

its taken a LOT of time and effort to get here, but its paid off.  But the efficiency gain only occurs when to start right at design.

This comment, in my opinion, is the big takeaway.

For P&P to be fast for small batches and prototypes - it is possible but not easy for someone that just got a machine. I feel like I still have quite a bit of effort to get everything all worked out to the point where I am quick. We have quite a bit of work coming up and each board design is an opportunity to push the process to a higher level. The good news is that each design I run through the system is faster than the previous.

Like @mrpackethead said - efficiency starts at the beginning of the design. A part numbering scheme has bee critical for us. The scheme defines the way the parts are stored, ordered, filtered, etc...and each system in your system has to compatible with that part number scheme. When I sort my BOM by part number - it naturally groups the parts by category, size, value, etc that matches the way they are stored. This makes it far easier to pick parts to be loaded in the machine. When I add a new part to the design, I can see what is 'normally' in the P&P and try to make it work. Whatever final component is chosen - the part number pushes all the way through to the BOM, P&P, DigiKey, inventory, and accounting. We just recently got all this organized so still waiting to see how much faster we get from design lock to P&P setup.

[mrpackethead]

Something that is helping me, but i hate doing is using checklists.   theres enough stuff to do, and it has to be done in the right order as well. 

its taken a LOT of time and effort to get here, but its paid off.  But the efficiency gain only occurs when to start right at design.

This comment, in my opinion, is the big takeaway.

For P&P to be fast for small batches and prototypes - it is possible but not easy for someone that just got a machine. I feel like I still have quite a bit of effort to get everything all worked out to the point where I am quick. We have quite a bit of work coming up and each board design is an opportunity to push the process to a higher level. The good news is that each design I run through the system is faster than the previous.

Like @mrpackethead said - efficiency starts at the beginning of the design. A part numbering scheme has bee critical for us. The scheme defines the way the parts are stored, ordered, filtered, etc...and each system in your system has to compatible with that part number scheme. When I sort my BOM by part number - it naturally groups the parts by category, size, value, etc that matches the way they are stored. This makes it far easier to pick parts to be loaded in the machine. When I add a new part to the design, I can see what is 'normally' in the P&P and try to make it work. Whatever final component is chosen - the part number pushes all the way through to the BOM, P&P, DigiKey, inventory, and accounting. We just recently got all this organized so still waiting to see how much faster we get from design lock to P&P setup.

[rx8pilot]

Something that is helping me, but i hate doing is using checklists.   theres enough stuff to do, and it has to be done in the right order as well. 

As a pilot - checklists have become a normal in my world. For the most part, there is no individual task that is difficult, but if you forget about it - things go south quickly. Flipping the gear lever just before landing is easy - getting distracted during approach and landing is even easier.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Something that is helping me, but i hate doing is using checklists.   theres enough stuff to do, and it has to be done in the right order as well. 

As a pilot - checklists have become a normal in my world. For the most part, there is no individual task that is difficult, but if you forget about it - things go south quickly. Flipping the gear lever just before landing is easy - getting distracted during approach and landing is even easier.

..like forgetting to put fids on both sides of a PCB that's populated on both sides.... just did that last week!

[MUDGEL]

As a beginner hobbyist who wants to run before he can even crawl, this has been a really revealing discussion. In essence, I would love to be getting prototyping work from others to process on my own equipment. Ive just realised how far ahead of myself I am to even be considering this. Thanks again for enlightening me.

[jmelson]

..like forgetting to put fids on both sides of a PCB that's populated on both sides.... just did that last week!

My CSM84 can use either traditional solid fiducials or a PTH.  I still have some boards that use the mounting holes as fiducials.  I don't see much difference in placement accuracy.

Jon

[mrpackethead]

yes, all sorts of thigns are possible, but its easier to put them in there.  My processing scripts look for some FIDS with very specifically named component names.  ( FIDBOT1, etc etc ), which it then rips out and automatically creates the fiducial info.

..like forgetting to put fids on both sides of a PCB that's populated on both sides.... just did that last week!

My CSM84 can use either traditional solid fiducials or a PTH.  I still have some boards that use the mounting holes as fiducials.  I don't see much difference in placement accuracy.

Jon