Author Topic: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?  (Read 821 times)

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Offline MarshallPlexi

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Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« on: November 08, 2018, 02:00:16 pm »
Hey guys!

I run a small business that designs and manufactures guitar pedals and vacuum tube guitar amps.

http://www.jackson.audio

http://www.jacksonampworks.com

I am looking to get into doing the SMT work in house because my US manufacturing prices are becoming pretty steep. For the volume I'm expecting to move in 2019, I think it's a great time to bring that process in house.

To that end, I'm looking at the NEODEN4 PNP and their entire production line (stencil printer, PNP, conveyor and reflow oven). The price on those units absolute SMOKES the prices that I've seen from Manncorp and DDM Novastar. Are there any other brands that I should be considering?

The only huge red flag I've seen on the NEODEN4 is the 5mm max component height. If that's a REAL number, that precludes me from installing SMD relays and almost all SMD electrolytics. I did see these videos which did give me some hope:




This video shows a 10mm cap being installed:
https://youtu.be/8AYhYWiWpAw?t=99

We are looking to run around 800 to 1200 panelized boards per year so our volume is not huge by any stretch.

If you have council I would be very grateful for it!

All the best!

Brad Jackson
 

Offline Zoe

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 04:41:51 pm »
Hello Brad,

This is Zoe from NeoDen Tech. Thanks for your support about our pick and place machine.

The maximum component height of our machine NeoDen4 is 5mm. But we can offer customize service, which could higher the limitation. Please contact me with email : neodensales@neodentech.com  or Skype: pnp.machine
 
We can discuss the details. The videos you saw are actually workable for our machine.

Regards
Zoe
 
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Offline MarshallPlexi

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 05:25:42 pm »
Hello Brad,

This is Zoe from NeoDen Tech. Thanks for your support about our pick and place machine.

The maximum component height of our machine NeoDen4 is 5mm. But we can offer customize service, which could higher the limitation. Please contact me with email : neodensales@neodentech.com  or Skype: pnp.machine
 
We can discuss the details. The videos you saw are actually workable for our machine.

Regards
Zoe

email sent! thanks!
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 08:47:25 pm »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times. 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 12:01:06 am »
. Are there any other brands that I should be considering?

Qihe, Charmhigh, Sjyingxing.
Search "pick place machine" on Aliexpress to see a selection.
When looking at prices, don't forget the recent import duty hike in the US
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Online SMTech

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 03:49:27 am »
Not to forget 2nd user, as an example - this is what craigslist show up in the UK https://london.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=pick%20and%20place&sort=rel or indeed used from China or more established broker/dealers who might have serviced it between owners.
 

Offline MarshallPlexi

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 07:09:06 am »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times.

That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.

 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 12:50:34 pm »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times.

That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.


You'll just end up being fustrated with machines of this grade.  ( neo, qihe etc etc ) ..     You'd be much better to buy some good 2nd hand machines.. What size components are you going to be placing.
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Offline MarshallPlexi

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 01:07:37 pm »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times.

That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.


You'll just end up being fustrated with machines of this grade.  ( neo, qihe etc etc ) ..     You'd be much better to buy some good 2nd hand machines.. What size components are you going to be placing.

Tons of 0805's...relays, electrolytics, uC's, TSSOP, SOIC etc.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2018, 03:52:56 pm »
Thats not that demanding..

I bought a couple of 2nd hand Yamaha Machines a few years ago, and they have been rock solid.. they just go and go and go.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 06:30:18 pm »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times.

That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.
Bear in mind that any P&P will take you a while to get up to speed with and develop processes to streamline setup. If you're not short of space then a used old machine may be at least as good an option if not better, especially if you have part height issues that will be problematic on new Chinese machines.
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 06:43:02 pm »
You'll get what you pay for.  Most folks who bring SMT in house for production end up fustrated by machines such as these.  They are ok for buildign prototypes.. Iv'e seen this so many times.

That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.
Bear in mind that any P&P will take you a while to get up to speed with and develop processes to streamline setup. If you're not short of space then a used old machine may be at least as good an option if not better, especially if you have part height issues that will be problematic on new Chinese machines.

I have just moved into my new factory space. Movingt two machines that are some 1500kg is not something you do quickly!
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2018, 06:48:19 am »
Thats not that demanding..

I bought a couple of 2nd hand Yamaha Machines a few years ago, and they have been rock solid.. they just go and go and go.
I got a used Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) about 11 years ago.  I have had a few things break on it, having a little machine shop in house has been quite helpful.  But, mostly, it just chugs along.  I've done several thousand boards on it in that time.

It did not take me long to get it running boards in production, although as I learned stuff about it, I was able to use it more effectively.

Don't forget to get plenty of feeders!

Jon
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 07:17:56 am »
I think if you ask around, you'll find that the typical story of people who bought some of the lower cost ( sub $10k ) desktop machines with the dream of doing 'production' volumes, goes like this..

Got it, fustrated, kept trying, more fustration..   then its a choice.. gave up, went back to CM, or bought a commerical machine

If you are doing it to save money you'll just end up running out of time.
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Offline MarshallPlexi

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2018, 02:51:35 pm »
I think if you ask around, you'll find that the typical story of people who bought some of the lower cost ( sub $10k ) desktop machines with the dream of doing 'production' volumes, goes like this..

Got it, fustrated, kept trying, more fustration..   then its a choice.. gave up, went back to CM, or bought a commerical machine

If you are doing it to save money you'll just end up running out of time.

Okay then so let's scrap the NEODEN idea. How about the Manncorp MC385? It appears to be a well crafted machine. Anyone have any history with these units in a production environment?

I've seen that SparkFun has one.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 05:46:58 pm »
That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.

Every PnP machine will be temperamental.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 05:52:48 pm »
That's my biggest concern. I need production machines that work every day. I can't sink $20k+ into a production line only to have it be tempermental etc.

Every PnP machine will be temperamental.

Yes, but its a question of how temperamental it is.  I can tolerate a few issues a day.. ( tape breaking on reel ) a misfeed, or even a broken nozzle. ( they dont' last forever )..     I cant' tolerate a few issues per board...   And a lot also comes down to expereince and learning. You just get better at it over itme.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2018, 06:18:38 pm »
The whole process is temperamental. The P&P machine itself is just part of it. The learning curve is exceptional regardless of what machines you buy. The cheaper you go, the less likely you will get it all stabilized.

The big concept to keep in mind is that PCB assembly is not a machine, it is a process. An unforgiving and challenging process with countless variables that need to be balanced to match your expectations.

Personally.... I don't think I would buy an N4. Especially if it was expected to be a critical business tool.

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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2018, 06:20:43 pm »
An engineer never has a problem. He just needs more time.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2018, 06:27:48 pm »
OK, what's the deal with Neoden employees on this forum, I count no less than 10 accounts!

Tonny-NeoDen, NeoDen-Haimi, Cathy_Neoden, SMT-Ellie, Suntee Sun, Zoe, Suntee, NeoDen Tech, TheJack, salestwo@neodentech.com

None seems to be sockpuppets, as they are identify themselves, but geeze, you all had better be careful.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2018, 06:32:51 pm »
Yes, but its a question of how temperamental it is.  I can tolerate a few issues a day.. ( tape breaking on reel ) a misfeed, or even a broken nozzle. ( they dont' last forever )..     I cant' tolerate a few issues per board...   And a lot also comes down to expereince and learning. You just get better at it over itme.

Sure. You have to weight up the advantages of running it yourself and massaging daily issues. If it's a production machine then you probably need a full time employee who specialises in not only running it but maintaining inventory etc. Multiple products multiples potential headaches and management complexity too.
But yeah, with experience you get better.
It's a cost-benefit analysis vs an external assembler.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2018, 09:05:25 pm »
Here's a suggestion on evaluating the benefit of doing in-house assembly.
Assume that while the machine is running, there will be one person attending to it 100% of the time.
Even if it can do a whole board with no attention, unless you have a fully automated process like with conveyors, stackers etc., then the operator won't be able to do significant other work as you will have constant interruptions for  feeding boards, stencilling etc.
Look at the placement rate, halve it as these figures are usually unrealistic, halve it again if you have significant numbers of large or fine pitch parts or low numbers of parts per board, add time for stencilling, inspection & rework.
From that, work out how much person time that will take for your expected production throughput, and whether it makes sense.

Now you may eventually get to the point where you can be doing useful work while the machine is running, but that should be an unexpected bonus, not an expectation.
 
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Online SMTech

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Re: Entry Level Pick And Place Machine - NeoDen?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2018, 09:57:23 pm »
Here's a suggestion on evaluating the benefit of doing in-house assembly.
Assume that while the machine is running, there will be one person attending to it 100% of the time.
Even if it can do a whole board with no attention, unless you have a fully automated process like with conveyors, stackers etc., then the operator won't be able to do significant other work as you will have constant interruptions for  feeding boards, stencilling etc.
Look at the placement rate, halve it as these figures are usually unrealistic, halve it again if you have significant numbers of large or fine pitch parts or low numbers of parts per board, add time for stencilling, inspection & rework.
From that, work out how much person time that will take for your expected production throughput, and whether it makes sense.

Now you may eventually get to the point where you can be doing useful work while the machine is running, but that should be an unexpected bonus, not an expectation.

I think Mikes guidelines here are pretty much spot on, if you are running an SM line you are occupied doing so, you have 3 processes requiring your attention. I can't do much else that's truly useful while running my standalone system even tho the placement stage itself is pretty bombproof. There's just very little you can do with 2-3 minute intervals, all those little jobs you think take 30seconds.. they don't and if you try and squeeze in another process alongside running the surface mount one something will suffer and you will do something really stupid like let a PCB drop off the end of your oven conveyor, load a pcb backwards or twice, or simply slow down you placement job because you weren't paying attention when it needed you to be. Even really mundane tasks are quite hard to do with continual interruption if you have something that suits it should be considered a bonus certainly not somethign you put in your sums.
 


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