Multiple designs on a PCB makes the price jump

[b_force]

Like said before, there is absolutely no technical reason why a PCB manufacturer would have additional work/costs to the process.

It's probably to encourage people not to panelise themselves. Pool services will puzzle together dozens of designs on a single panel. There will be less space wasted with 5 small designs compared to 1 large of the same surface...

So, more efficient, less waste in material/pollution etc.
Seems like a good idea rather than a bad idea to me. 

It says a lot about where they actually get the most profits from, which are the startup/tooling costs

[StuUK]

Thanks for the note Bob - nice tool you have created. Well done.

I am going to look around and see who operates this way. It feels so shady to operate that way.

Yes Bob, nice tool, perhaps you could even at a nice BOLD "No Multi Design Surcharge" against the suppliers that don't use this practice.

[rea5245]

Yes Bob, nice tool, perhaps you could even at a nice BOLD "No Multi Design Surcharge" against the suppliers that don't use this practice.

Well, I added a field that lets you specify how many designs are in your Gerber, and I report manufacturers' prices based on that. But I want PCBShopper.com to be a neutral, objective price comparison site. Displaying a bold "No Multi Design Surcharge" message would sort of be taking sides.

- Bob

[StuUK]

Yes Bob, nice tool, perhaps you could even at a nice BOLD "No Multi Design Surcharge" against the suppliers that don't use this practice.

Well, I added a field that lets you specify how many designs are in your Gerber, and I report manufacturers' prices based on that. But I want PCBShopper.com to be a neutral, objective price comparison site. Displaying a bold "No Multi Design Surcharge" message would sort of be taking sides.

- Bob

It's just a statement of fact but I can understand your viewpoint.

[Honk]

It's not an uncommon practice, but it annoys and bewilders everyone who runs into it. I run the price comparison site PCBShopper.com and I got enough complaints from my users about surcharges on multiple designs that I added it as a parameter in my price calculator.
- Bob

Hi.
A very good PCB price comparison tool but it seems it has lost its strength to calculate on multiple designs.
The returned results is for one PCB design only even if more design is added to the search input.
The reson to this is probably that the manufacturers sites have changed since PCBshopper was programmed.
But it could good for the newcommers to know this fact before placing orders based upon the search results.

[rea5245]

A very good PCB price comparison tool but it seems it has lost its strength to calculate on multiple designs.
The returned results is for one PCB design only even if more design is added to the search input.
The reson to this is probably that the manufacturers sites have changed since PCBshopper was programmed.
But it could good for the newcommers to know this fact before placing orders based upon the search results.

Can you give me some details about this? What did you search for, and which manufacturer's price was incorrect?

PCBShopper works by querying the manufacturers' sites for their prices, so it's not a problem when manufacturers change their prices, only if they change their sites (which usually causes an error which gets reported to me and I fix it quickly). But if you've found a problem, please give me the details. I'm very responsive: I generally fix things within 24 hours.

- Bob Alexander
  PCBShopper.com

[katy201607]

if your 5 design need to be connected each other, you could draw some tracks to connect so that the boards seems to be one design,it will avoid higher price. that is my opinion.

[KL27x]

^That is cheating... PCB fab is very likely catch that. There is usually at least one human being looking at the gerbers for potential issues.

Like said before, there is absolutely no technical reason why a PCB manufacturer would have additional work/costs to the process.

For one-offs or prototyping quantities, it may not matter as much. But in higher quantities it makes a few big differences in the logistics. There is a human being at most of these manufacturers looking at the pcbs for defects and marking them with a Sharpie. When you are screening panels of multiple pcb on a panel, this makes the job more difficult. Then there's the actual quantity of good boards that must be produced to fill the order. If there's a 20% fail rate on one of the boards, for whatever reason, that means they have to make that many extras of the other 4, too, which just go in the garbage as wasted time, labor, and materials. The reason they manufacture arrays of pcb in large panels is to make the process faster, easier, and cheaper, and putting multiple designs on the same panel removes some of this efficiency.

In many ways, combining pcbs on a panel is like making one larger pcb. It is easier and cheaper to make, test, and produce 3000 small pcb  30 to a panel than it is to make 100 pcb that is 30 times the size. If the customer wants their pcbs to work, anyway. One defect on every single panel of the small order still results in 2900 good boards per 100 panels.

It's more likely they are losing money on many smaller multpcb panel orders that don't matter so much and don't really dedicate the time to catching and adjusting them all.

[rx8pilot]

Its true, they do catch it. Its also when I tell them I am going somewhere else. There was a place I was using consistently for my low volume stuff. Probably about $10k in 6 months which is not really huge business, but they where more than willing to let me walk away over a design with a few layouts.

Seems strange, but they would not budge an inch. I have since spent about $25k on PCB fab, just not with them.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[digsys]

... It's more likely they are losing money on many smaller multpcb panel orders that don't matter so much and don't really dedicate the time to catching and adjusting them all.

All what you say is very true.
In my case, when I do a multi on a single pcb, I rarely have the total dims much greater than their std ~120x120mm. Usually I fill these up with
those 1001 little adapter / breakout / driver pcbs that are damn handy to have around.
It also helps them, NOT having to deal with 100x 10x10mm, 5x20mm little cr@ppy pcbs that I couldn't care less if I lost a few.

[KL27x]

I hadn't even considered the assembly, if that is something you are also outsourcing. You can't  X-out one board out of the group without consequences. Perhaps the component cost for that board is negligible and you just allow the bad board to populate as dead waste, but then you have to communicate a different BOM requirement to the customer. Which is more human capital just to iron out stupid details.  And in the end, you have to make up any odd missing boards... which means.. hrmm. Well, it gets sorta complicated, doesn't it? More likely, no x-outs is the easiest way to deal with it.

Instead of being able to parallel process 5 different panels through 5 lower cost machines, they will pile up in line for the more capable machine with the higher number of feeders. And you have to wait for parts for all 5 boards on hand before you can start.

Post assembly inspection is more difficult. Instead of parallel processing 5 different panels to 5 different workers who have to inspect 1/5th the data, you either need each worker inspecting all 5, or you have to have different workers handling the same panels 5 times.

Henry Ford figured out a lot of this stuff like 100 years ago. Maybe we are disconnected, just a little bit, to the actual process. Expecting multi-pcb panels at the same cost is just plain inconsiderate. Even if your boards are small, this costs when doing quantity.

Maybe first order wasn't big enough for them to care. But after many repeat orders they realize this is not a small order, just a spaced out large order.

I couldn't care less if I lost a few.

This requires enambiguous and precise communication which costs human capital (support/service). Failing that, misunderstanding and more human capital ensues.

I ordered a super tiny, simple board with assembly. I was surprised when they arrived each tiny miserable board individually bagged in static cage ziplock bag. (There were no semiconductors on the board, even.) I didn't really think about it at the time of order, but I expected something like 100 per bag. Or even just a box with all 3000 of them. It was a PITA to open each one, and it cost them money. But failing the ability to read minds, it is probably less costly in the end to stick with the program if in any doubt. The customer can't complain for getting consistent service as agreed upon. And stopping to inquire can cause more damage than helping. If the customer is not expecting communication and doesn't answer immediately, there can be delay that can cause problems on both ends.

That said, of course if I'm Rx8, I'm unhappy at this price hike. And compared to one single board, it probably does not cost more. Maybe it's just the opportunity cost. Like any business, there are more and less profitable services. And maybe even loss-leaders that are suffered in order to get the good business. Say you sell hotdogs at 200% profit margin and hamburgers at 0%, and someone orders 1000 hotdogs... but with stipulations that financially turn them into hamburgers.

[T3sl4co1l]

This requires enambiguous and precise communication which costs human capital (support/service). Failing that, misunderstanding and more human capital ensues.

These proto services are very low cost.  Even with Chinese labor, they can't afford to spare any.  Any work you need done (beyond the proto panelization, which is their thing, it saves production costs), expect to pay for it -- or do it yourself.  This includes taking the time to shop around for another supplier, if one will not meet your unit pricing (for any particular reason or not).

When you can't afford things, life is hard!

On a related subject, I'm moderately impressed with PCBCart, who panelized a design for me, 10 pieces for $80.  I provided one set of gerbers, containing three designs, to be built as four (two units of one board).  They correctly read the drawing and sent a check plot.  Probably would've been cheaper elsewhere, but I'm not picky enough to care.

Tim

[rx8pilot]

That said, of course if I'm Rx8, I'm unhappy at this price hike. And compared to one single board, it probably does not cost more. Maybe it's just the opportunity cost. Like any business, there are more and less profitable services. And maybe even loss-leaders that are suffered in order to get the good business. Say you sell hotdogs at 200% profit margin and hamburgers at 0%, and someone orders 1000 hotdogs... but with stipulations that financially turn them into hamburgers.

In my case - I am doing the assembly myself and the PCB was routed and de-paneled by me as well. Submitted as a single Gerber, no V-score, internal routing, mouse bites, etc. - all that done by me. Literally - the exact same effort as a PCB with the same stack, dimensions, and features. In the USA - the base price is generally vastly higher than Chinese fabs so when they add an additional arbitrary fee it is time for me to run.

Sunstone Circuits is a high quality, higher cost USA fab and they never cared what I did with the boards after I got them. They charged based on size, stack, and features as one would expect. I regularly saved a bit by grouping 5-6 very small designs myself and doing them at Sunstone. So, if I do USA based I will go with Sunstone or a few others that work the same way.

When cost is an issue - I go to China and they sometimes charge for grouped designs but the base cost is so low it doesn't make much difference. In fact, Chinese fabs are so cheap that I usually don't even bother and let them do the work instead of me.

[Honk]

Well, you can try this input: (selected size, layers, copper and others doesn't seem to affect the results)
5 designs, 100x200mm, 4 layers, 5pcs PCB, any color, Silkscreen both, 2oz copper.
I haven't checked all manufacturers search result but Elecrow returns: US$123.30 total, US$24.66 each
If you go to their site you'll see that this is for one design only. (as for some others as well)

Change the search input to:
1 design, 100x200mm, 4 layers, 5pcs PCB, any color, Silkscreen both, 2oz copper
And the result is the same: US$123.30 total, US$24.66 each at Elecrow

So it seems the multiple design search is out of order, at least for some of the manufacturers.

Perhaps you could look into this issue? 

A very good PCB price comparison tool but it seems it has lost its strength to calculate on multiple designs.
The returned results is for one PCB design only even if more design is added to the search input.

Can you give me some details about this? What did you search for, and which manufacturer's price was incorrect?

PCBShopper works by querying the manufacturers' sites for their prices, so it's not a problem when manufacturers change their prices, only if they change their sites (which usually causes an error which gets reported to me and I fix it quickly). But if you've found a problem, please give me the details. I'm very responsive: I generally fix things within 24 hours.

- Bob Alexander
  PCBShopper.com

[rea5245]

Hi Honk,

Thank you for the specs. PCBShopper's price is correct.

When you specify the number of designs on Elecrow's site, you are specifying the number of designs separated by v-grooves. You can verify this by hovering the mouse over the "* eg" link on the "Different Design" line. A picture will pop up showing what Elecrow means by "different designs". Also, their FAQ says "(Two design PCB is separated by V-groove)".

When you specify the number of designs on PCBShopper, you are specifying the number of designs not separated by anything (other than, perhaps, a silkscreened line). You can verify this by hovering the mouse over the circled question mark next to "Number of Designs".

I do it this way on PCBShopper because some companies charge extra for these un-separated extra designs. That's often a nasty surprise for customers: everyone expects to pay extra for v-grooves, but a lot of people are surprised when they're charged extra for a second design that, seemingly, doesn't cost the manufacturer any extra. I heard about it from enough irate users (they weren't mad at PCBShopper, they were mad at the manufacturer, but they let me know about it) that I added the Number of (unseparated) Designs field.

I recently re-vamped PCBShopper's UI to make it look nicer. In the process, I got rid of long help texts that were sitting next to each entry field, and put them behind the circled question mark. So it used to be that I had always-visible text explaining what I meant by "Number of Designs", and now that text is hidden. I can see that at least in this case, that doesn't work well.

So I've changed the label on that PCBShopper field so that it will be more obvious what I mean. I'm not crazy about the wording I used; if you can suggest something better, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
   Bob Alexander
   PCBShopper.com

[Honk]

Hi Bob and thank you so much for great feedback.
This really makes my day since I prefer Elecrow as board supplier for some years back.
My designs usually contains several smaller boards that I separate by silkscreen lines.
I was afraid of Elecrow abandoning their previous generous rules of free different designs.
Their new online web quote doesn't mention straight forward that one can still freely fill up the board without extra cost.
The V-Cut is not clearly stated by the pictures or by any text at the Different Design option.
So this was perfect news for me

Great work with PCB shopper

[1276-2449-1-ND]

OMG, yes please add a "No Multi Design Surcharge" notice or toggle for easier filtering. "Number of Design Separated Only by Silkscreen" doesn't do anything to limit board houses who charge for pre-panellized designs.