Neoden 4 pick and place

[vonnieda]

Unfortunately I installed a serial port sniffer and it does not appear to be G-code.  Looks like some command protocol where they send a simple command and then a set of data bytes come back. Probably similar to g-code (everything appeared to be TX+RX repeated in order) but definitely not ASCII. 

I only spent about 2 minutes after I saw the data was non-ASCII before I had to run for a week long business trip.  I will try to look at things a bit more and see if I can make more sense of it.  Jason, can you tell me your recommended serial port sniffer s/w?  I installed Eltima. 

I'll also try to poke into some of their DLLs (they have a lot) to see if there's any good looking functions we can piggy back onto. 

Also going to reach out to my contact to see if they can give a response on the subject.  I would urge anybody else who has purchased or considering purchasing to do the same.  Seems this would only increase their sales for maybe a few hours of effort so not sure why they wouldn't provide any sort of documentation.

Sorry, I don't have a recommendation on a serial sniffer. I haven't used one in many, many years. It sounds like Eltima is working okay, so I'd say stick with that

If you can post what you've gathered so far, I'd be happy to see if it makes sense to me. Protocols are a specialty of mine, and I might be able to make an educated guess about what it is.

Jason

[jkauf]

Neoden basically replied no on providing any help or protocol info.

I was asking about the serial port logger because the format was a bit weird with that Eltima.  I could basically only get about 4 transactions on the screen at once b/c they had so much extra stuff being shown on the screen.  Again only spent 2 minutes though...  will try again this evening and see if I can get you something.  I'll see if I can take some synchronized videos of what's on the screen too and then step through their "manual" control features so you can compare the log to a video.  I really don't think it will be too hard.  Didn't appear to be encrypted or anything.

[vonnieda]

Neoden basically replied no on providing any help or protocol info.

I was asking about the serial port logger because the format was a bit weird with that Eltima.  I could basically only get about 4 transactions on the screen at once b/c they had so much extra stuff being shown on the screen.  Again only spent 2 minutes though...  will try again this evening and see if I can get you something.  I'll see if I can take some synchronized videos of what's on the screen too and then step through their "manual" control features so you can compare the log to a video.  I really don't think it will be too hard.  Didn't appear to be encrypted or anything.

Sounds good. I'd think that any logger worth it's salt would have a logging feature, where it will write the raw data to a log file. This would be the ideal source of info for me. My plan for this would be to get that log, figure out what format it's in (record length, record order, etc.) and then write a simple little parser just for the log file. Then we can run logging data through it until we identify every record and from there I can write an OpenPnP driver for it.

If you come up with any files you'd like to send me, my email is jason@vonnieda.org.

Jason

[rayshobby]

Hey guys, after reading through all the posts in this thread, I pulled the trigger and bought the NeoDen 4 machine. It arrived last week and I had an exciting weekend learning how to use it. I did a video review of it, which you can find below:
http://rayshobby.net/review-of-neoden-4-pick-and-place-machine-with-vision-system/
Overall it seems a pretty decent machine at a very reasonable price.

[mikeselectricstuff]

SW looks slightly better than I expected but one noticeable very dumb error - when running at reduced speed, it moves to the pick position at reduced speed as well 

When placing noncritical parts without vision, can it still detect mis-picks using vacuum sensing ? Are there any vacuum sensing parameters in the part definitions?

Can you show the process for defining new parts ? - I'm assuming you define parts rather than having to set parameters for parts in each job or per feeder - is this the case ?

[Eclipze]

I've done two board runs with my machine so far.

The machine moving slow to the target, when it could move fast, is a nice to have however it isn't important.  I'd much rather features such as a "soft pickup", where the pickup trajectory is damped.  I hate seeing parts bounced unnecessarily.

From what I've observed, the vacuum sensing only seems to detect a mis-pick.  But it does not continuously check throughout the rest of the trajectory.

I've had some trouble with tape feeding.  Two new reels, a 10nF and LED both 0603.  The tape feeders keep failing to feed enough.  There is no error detection that the tape hasn't actually been feed.  So the pickup attempts just mash the tape and bounce the components out.  Becomes a mess, as you get 5 parts loose and jamming.  Worse if you have two heads picking from the same tape.

There is an option for "Correct Size".  Whatever you do, don't check this.  I believe it's vision checking of the parts size.  You end up getting a lot of suction errors and good parts dumped for no reason.  Wasted sooo much time on this.

The tray pickup is handy, but it's gimped by not saving it's state.  If you stop the machine... for example you want adjust the pickup or placement height of something, it's looses it's index.  I've been running 8 cut-tapes in the tray position for expensive items for a short run of boards.  It's a pain to either hand move parts or have to change the alignment for first component.  Works fine if you're placing board after board.  However during initial setup, it's frustrating.  The tray area also doesn't support auto index on failed pickup.  It just tries the same spot 5 times.  Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

The major frustration is with not being able to make changes without having to go all the way through the nozzle align, board feed, edge align, multiple fidicual matching... then placing.  So if you do have an issue with a feeder not aligned or need to adjust something, you loose a couple of minutes going back/forth and starting again.  I am SO over this sequence when I just want to tweak something.

You really need to align the heads and the heads with the camera.  When I first tried to load boards, I thought there was no chance it could ever place 0402.  Must align them yourself.  Made a massive difference.  There is no password to get into this area, just hit enter.  It's shouldn't be labeled password, as it stops people unnecessarily.  Aligning the head with the camera is a little more complicated... it needs to press/rotate pickup head 1 into some carbon paper, then inspect with the camera to align.

It's a little annoying that you cannot vision align parts at the back of the machine.  The last couple of feeders it out of range for the camera.  You have to use a nozzle check to see where it picks up from.  Limitation of the design.  I've got larger feeders in these positions.

There is a method to check the pickup height.  You can test/adjust the height as well as do a pick test with vacuum.  But there is no option to stop the pick test... i.e. "dump part" blow it off and stop the vacuum pump.

I can't find any way to test the PCB placement height.  In fact if your PCB is loaded in a fixed position, you will have to change all the placement heights in all the feeders to match whatever height you have it set at.  The only way I know parts aren't touching the board with enough placement, is they fly off.  I don't know I'm pressing too hard, unless I can record some fast footage and slow motion it.

My biggest concern at the moment is that all the pickup heads are not even in height.  There is no individual adjustment.  I have two that are >0.5mm difference in height.  One will bounce the tape and possible scatter parts, while the other may not pick up a part.  I've swapped nozzles around to prove the difference is machine side.  There is no individual calibration.  I haven't pulled apart the head to see if I can manually adjust the gear position on the steppers to match them.  But it's really important for pickup/placement success.  I use two small pickup nozzles on the best matched heads, which has helped.

The software does have some features to auto assign BOM components to feeders.  I've tried it.  I find it a lot easier to manage the feeder sheet in Excel and generate the required loadout.  That way I can also optimised pickup and placement based on component groups and sort by X/Y coordinates.

Loading tape is almost fast.  It's really quick to insert new tape.  However I waste so much time trying to get that pull off tape to feed through the gears.  Sometimes I poke some sticky tape through from the other side.  I'II have to try something like folding or twisting the tape end.

If anyone knows how to do any of the following, I'd love to hear from you :-)
1. Avoid going through head/PCB alignment after making a change to the placement file.
2. Adjust/match nozzle heights.
3. Test part placement height.
4. Overcome feeders being too weak to consistently feed.

I think the feeders indexing mechanism is the weakess mechanical aspect.  The software could be more intuitive, although just having more appropriate English terms would help.  The software really needs to give more for individual nozzle height adjustment/control, including component placement testing/tuning.  This machine is a fraction of the cost of higher end machines.  Can't expect the features of a high end machine.  Really hope to see some upgrades in the software though.  Overall... I'm starting to learn the quirks and hope to get the machine loading boards a bit more consistently. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

The machine moving slow to the target, when it could move fast, is a nice to have however it isn't important.
[/qupte]
Not a huge deal but is indicative of a lack of thought in the design

From what I've observed, the vacuum sensing only seems to detect a mis-pick.  But it does not continuously check throughout the rest of the trajectory.

That's the most important - if placing without vision is viable, then a means of detecing mis-picks is essential. Drops after picking should be pretty rare, though can be catastrophic if a big part gets droppped randomly on a board

There is an option for "Correct Size".  Whatever you do, don't check this.  I believe it's vision checking of the parts size.  You end up getting a lot of suction errors and good parts dumped for no reason.  Wasted sooo much time on this.

My machine will detect size, but lets you specify a percentage tolerance. It can be handy to detect things like parts flipping on their side during picking

The tray pickup is handy, but it's gimped by not saving it's state.  If you stop the machine... for example you want adjust the pickup or placement height of something, it's looses it's index.

The tray area also doesn't support auto index on failed pickup.  It just tries the same spot 5 times.  Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

The major frustration is with not being able to make changes without having to go all the way through the nozzle align, board feed, edge align, multiple fidicual matching... then placing.  So if you do have an issue with a feeder not aligned or need to adjust something, you loose a couple of minutes going back/forth and starting again.  I am SO over this sequence when I just want to tweak something.

You really need to align the heads and the heads with the camera.  When I first tried to load boards, I thought there was no chance it could ever place 0402.  Must align them yourself.  Made a massive difference.  There is no password to get into this area, just hit enter.  It's shouldn't be labeled password, as it stops people unnecessarily.  Aligning the head with the camera is a little more complicated... it needs to press/rotate pickup head 1 into some carbon paper, then inspect with the camera to align.

yet you do need a PW to make it speak English 

I can't  find any way to test the PCB placement height.  In fact if your PCB is loaded in a fixed position, you will have to change all the placement heights in all the feeders to match whatever height you have it set at.  The only way I know parts aren't touching the board with enough placement, is they fly off.  I don't know I'm pressing too hard, unless I can record some fast footage and slow motion it.

Seriously...? that's just  ridiculous - it's essential to be able to set a PCB height, to deal with different thicknesses, jigs etc.

Such a shame that what appears to basically be a good machine ( apart from feeders maybe) is spoilt so badly by poor software design. Considering the machine has been around a while, seems they're not interested in making improvements either.

[jkauf]

OnE thing we discovered that really helps picking and components popping out of tape is to turn down the peeler strength.   The default is 80 but for all 8mm tapes we switches to 40.  Really cuts down the noise and vibration and seems the feeder and popped components are much fewer now.  I think for all wider tapes and small ICs we turned it up a bit to 50 or 60.  And big components left at 80.  Basically it's easier to keep this low and turn up if the tape doesn't peel.

Size checking seems to work almost but we have turned off vacuum check completely.   For the size check it's good to have it on for small compinents just to check for sideways pick.  You have to assign a footprint and create the size of it.  We played with the size a lot and ultimately for 0402 we had to do the single component image check rather than the joint 4 at a time.  With the 4 at a time, the resolution seemed too low for 0402 and sometimes the detect box was too small or big and got tossed.  Still better than a bad pick or place since most 0402s are fractions of a penny.   We're averaging 2ish per 100 total components probably 75 being 0402s.  Then on 0603 it is works better so good to have on.  Hint... look at the blue box it makes.  It's too bad the message or output window doesn't give details about the failure... this should be one line of code!!!.

I asked neoden about how the footprint check works and what the tolerance is but got the typical answer that probably means they don't know or simply don't have a good answer.  The shame is I really just want about 40% tolerance or so to check for sideways or 90 degree rotated picks... but no setting for it.

Oh and our biggest problem with vision check and alignment has been that two of the small nozzles were black but have worn and now are a metallic or white color in the bottom camera.  So now the white metallic look of the nozzle blurs with the pad portion of 0402s and cause rejects.  We literally have a black sharpie and paint the nozzle tip before a panel and that helps great until it starts wearing again.   Gonna try some gun or metal blacking chemical soon. 

Does anyone know the optimal height to pick components and to place?  I'd say by far our biggest problem is bad feeds and components coming out or bad picks.   The nozzles have a few mm of spring.  So should we pick 0.1mm above and rely on suction, try exact, or purposely push down a bit.  Same for placement... try for flush on pcb so we smashing paste... or in deeper or less?

We also saw that for sot23s and such it's best to run 50% speed.

On new phone with annoying auto correct keyboard so excuse my grammar and typos...

[mikeselectricstuff]

I asked neoden about how the footprint check works and what the tolerance is but got the typical answer that probably means they don't know or simply don't have a good answer. 
[//quote]
I suspect that Neoden don't do the SW in-house, and may be buying it per-copy from someone else. This might also explain the password-for-English nonsense.

Does anyone know the optimal height to pick components and to place?  I'd say by far our biggest problem is bad feeds and components coming out or bad picks.   The nozzles have a few mm of spring.  So should we pick 0.1mm above and rely on suction, try exact, or purposely push down a bit.  Same for placement... try for flush on pcb so we smashing paste... or in deeper or less?

On my machine, for paper tapes, pick just touching, for plastic, slightly above to suck off, to avoid tape bounce.
For placing you do want it to push it into the paste - PCBs sometimes have some warp and you want to err on the too-hard side, otherwise parts may stick to the nozzle or move too much.

[Eclipze]

Great info jkauf!!!  Appreciated.

Currently I've found a height difference between the feeders either side of the camera.  The front uses 0.6mm, the rear 1.0mm.  Currently using two small nozzles for 0402, 0603, 0805, SOT323, SOT23. Difficult to optimise the pickup/placement height when the nozzles don't match in height.  I did loose many SOT323 parts today... not liking some of the trial and error needed to get consistent loading.  Several ended up being on the camera, which caused trouble with the vision.

Two of my nozzles weren't returning properly after compression.  A little INOX grease has since been working well.

The feeder advancement is a bit of a concern for me.    The advancement seems accurate enough, however I noticed with two tapes I couldn't get working that it doesn't appear to put extra effort in to move the correct distance.   I've just been thinking about the issue, particularly because I now have a $370 reel of LEDs I can't run on the machine.  Could "Feeder Strength" be feeder speed?  I pushed both tape and feeder strength it to 100% and still couldn't get the tape feeding properly.  Perhaps I should have gone the other way and reduced feeder strength.   

Some of the feeders have such a unique sound!  I can tell when certain components are being placed while in a different room.

I finished a short run of 22 boards today.  Put tape strips on the top of the waffle tray that had the micros.  Initially I thought the machine would bump other parts out on pick, however only had this occur on one of the SO8s.  More double sided tape to secure the length probably would have fixed it.   Apart from the indexing not saving on file exit, it worked quite well.  Going to be marvelous to use the machine for building such short-run prototypes on cut tape.

[sparkswillfly]

http://rayshobby.net/review-of-neoden-4-pick-and-place-machine-with-vision-system/

[jkauf]

Some of the feeders have such a unique sound!  I can tell when certain components are being placed while in a different room.

Yes.  That ominous, god-awful noise I could hear in the review video.  It kind of sounds like the noise you hear in some suspense movie trailers as it switches between scenes.  Its from the peelers.   For all ours I think this went away when we dropped the peeler stremgtj to 40 instead of 80 strength... and as I mentioned it seems less components were vibrating out as a result too and never had a bad peel on a 8mm wide tape.

I have no idea what feeder strength actually does and have left all these at 80.  I suspect it is the drive current to the steppers but not sure.  You will hear that with the peelers off, the feeder motors are actually very smooth. 

Some other observations:

We saw some weird behavior aligning 0603s and other 4mm spaced components.  We would try to align the component to the front of the pick window to decrease chances of components popping out.  So to do this we would move 2mm until its there.  Then we switch to 4mm and feed, but every time the next component would end up towards the back of the window (i.e. 2mm or 6mm away), and then all subsequent feeds were 4mm so it would stay towards the back.  Even tried rebooting after getting it in position.  Its like they force the absolute position to be a multiple of 4mm when feeding 4mm, no matter what, and this was always putting the components towards the back of the window.  Wasted hundreds of components figuring this out, and then gave up and just picked from the back.

Also our machine just will not feed 6mm (we realized this while trying to align those 4mm spaced 0603s).  Not sure but maybe this is never a valid spacing so they just quietly don't allow it.  Either way all this leads me to believe there is some custom logic handling the feed spacing. 

We have seen on some bigger components or plastic reels an issue where it doesn't feed.  I think the tape might get snagged on the way down before it wraps around b/c once it starts working it seems to keep working.  Also if a component gets through unpicked (for big stuff) I *think* the radius going to the underside is sharp enough that it could get stuck making the turn down, so you have to manually remove them.  Doubt this is the case with your LEDs (I was seeing it on a TSSOP20) but worth mentioning... maybe you're talking about those big/thick 5W LEDs though.

[harry4516]

http://rayshobby.net/review-of-neoden-4-pick-and-place-machine-with-vision-system/

thanks for the video.
The vision resolution is 100 times better than the picture of the TVM802. Look pretty clear and sharp.

[rayshobby]

Wow, there is suddenly surge of posts. I tried the tip of reducing peeler strength from 80 to 40. Glad to find it worked. At least the peeler noise is much smaller, and it still peels successfully.

Regarding the questions Eclipze asked:
1. Avoid going through head/PCB alignment after making a change to the placement file.

What kind of change do you mean? Generally when I make a change, I place the board at the fixed position (or feed it automatically using the conveyor belt), then you can choose a component and modify it position if I need. The only tricky part is that when using the conveyor belt, it's hard to guarantee the board will be loaded at exactly the same location. What I do is to move the board on the conveyor belt slightly and leverage the fiducials to ensure the board is in the right position, then make changes to components.

2. Adjust/match nozzle heights.

I don't think there is any way to adjust the height physically. But when setting up a feeder you can specify the pick-up height and placing height. The components are not exactly at the same height anyways, so the fact that the nozzles are not the same height doesn't really matter.

3. Test part placement height.

The placement height is determined by the component height. I just measure the component height and use that as placement height.

4. Overcome feeders being too weak to consistently feed.

I haven't encountered this problem so far. One important thing is to make sure the component tape is locked into the gear of the feeder.

One problem I encountered was that I have a 8mm tape of Tantalum capacitors that are quite height (>4mm), and the 8mm feeders can only fit components that are 2mm high. But I discovered that the 8mm feeders have this white plastic support piece which can be easily removed. Once it's removed, the capacitor tape fits in very nicely.

[Eclipze]

1. Examples of changes that currently result in a board re-load cycle...
 - Need to adjust pick or placement height.
 - Have run out of a part (or the machine is dumping too many) and want to skip it for remaining boards.
 - Re-adjust feeder alignment.
 - Want to move the head so I can change the reel.

2. The specific issue is that the nozzle aren't at the same height, which causes issue when both nozzles pick from the same feeder.  See the picture below.  There is currently only one setting for pickup/placement height per feeder.  There is no adjustment per nozzle.  My expectation is to either adjust the gear position on the steppers to get the heights to match, or possible move their reference.  Perhaps there is an opto switch that can be adjusted.  Haven't looked yet.

3. But how do you know how high your PCB?  Particularly if it isn't on the rails. I have projects that use between 1.0mm and 2.4mm thick PCBs.  I think the only way is to use a tray feeder to move the head to the PCB with a component in place, then test as a feeder.  Not ideal, but what I was planning to do with the next board run.

[Gary.M]

1. Examples of changes that currently result in a board re-load cycle...
 - Need to adjust pick or placement height.
 - Have run out of a part (or the machine is dumping too many) and want to skip it for remaining boards.
 - Re-adjust feeder alignment.
 - Want to move the head so I can change the reel.

2. The specific issue is that the nozzle aren't at the same height, which causes issue when both nozzles pick from the same feeder.  See the picture below.  There is currently only one setting for pickup/placement height per feeder.  There is no adjustment per nozzle.  My expectation is to either adjust the gear position on the steppers to get the heights to match, or possible move their reference.  Perhaps there is an opto switch that can be adjusted.  Haven't looked yet.

3. But how do you know how high your PCB?  Particularly if it isn't on the rails. I have projects that use between 1.0mm and 2.4mm thick PCBs.  I think the only way is to use a tray feeder to move the head to the PCB with a component in place, then test as a feeder.  Not ideal, but what I was planning to do with the next board run.

Guys, for the dollars spent this all sounds like crap. I hope you're all feeding back advice to the manufacturer.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[mikeselectricstuff]

1. Examples of changes that currently result in a board re-load cycle...
 - Need to adjust pick or placement height.
 - Have run out of a part (or the machine is dumping too many) and want to skip it for remaining boards.
 - Re-adjust feeder alignment.
 - Want to move the head so I can change the reel.

2. The specific issue is that the nozzle aren't at the same height, which causes issue when both nozzles pick from the same feeder.  See the picture below.  There is currently only one setting for pickup/placement height per feeder.  There is no adjustment per nozzle.  My expectation is to either adjust the gear position on the steppers to get the heights to match, or possible move their reference.  Perhaps there is an opto switch that can be adjusted.  Haven't looked yet.

3. But how do you know how high your PCB?  Particularly if it isn't on the rails. I have projects that use between 1.0mm and 2.4mm thick PCBs.  I think the only way is to use a tray feeder to move the head to the PCB with a component in place, then test as a feeder.  Not ideal, but what I was planning to do with the next board run.

Guys, for the dollars spent this all sounds like crap. I hope you're all feeding back advice to the manufacturer.

You get what you pay for - don't forget that this machine costs maybe a fifth of the nearest equivalent from an established P&P manufacturer.
The frustrating thing is that pretty much all the issues are fixable in software, but it seems the manufacturer has the typical Chinese attitude of "good enough to ship" and isn't interested in fixing it.
Bear in mind most of their market is China, where labour to babysit and set up the machine is cheap.
 

[Eclipze]

For the dollars spent I couldn't even find a descent second hand machine that here.  I remember one quote was $29k for a 26 year old second hand model.  I don't have the space, shop air or power to run those.  Not interested in a bargin either... they can take several months of tinkering to get working.

You work with the tools that you have and can afford.  As an engineer... I apply my skill as best I can to get the most out of it.  That means learning the quirks, the workarounds and make any improvements or adjustments I can.  I loaded boards this morning full of 0402.  In a couple of months, I'II hopefully depend on the machine and it won't take too long to pay it off.

I wouldn't be so quick to label it crap and not worth the money ;-)
Look forward to hearing from others with machines on how they've got smooth loading going.

[mikeselectricstuff]

3. But how do you know how high your PCB?  Particularly if it isn't on the rails. I have projects that use between 1.0mm and 2.4mm thick PCBs.  I think the only way is to use a tray feeder to move the head to the PCB with a component in place, then test as a feeder.  Not ideal, but what I was planning to do with the next board run.

Is there no way to manually guide the nozzle down to the board surface and read out the height?

[Dr. Evil]

Hey All!

I am the proud owner of a NeoDen4 and have been operating it since July.  I think I have a pretty good feel for it now (as I can see on this forum, others have gone through the "discovery process" for this machine), and can accurately and consistently place 0402 parts now.

I have one question:  I appear to be missing something, because I cannot get the tray feeder to work.  After set up, it picks the first part fine and dandy (I am using a 10-paneled board), however for the second panel it just goes to the same spot in the tray feeder for the next part, which by this time is empty.  I have the parameters on the feeder panel all set up right, however there does not seem to be a setting for the part spacing, advancing to the next part, etc.  All I see is the first part coordinates, the number of rows and columns, and the row/column starting point.

What am I missing here?  Any advice would be helpful, thanks!

[mva]

Hey All!

I am the proud owner of a NeoDen4 and have been operating it since July.  I think I have a pretty good feel for it now (as I can see on this forum, others have gone through the "discovery process" for this machine), and can accurately and consistently place 0402 parts now.

I have one question:  I appear to be missing something, because I cannot get the tray feeder to work.  After set up, it picks the first part fine and dandy (I am using a 10-paneled board), however for the second panel it just goes to the same spot in the tray feeder for the next part, which by this time is empty.  I have the parameters on the feeder panel all set up right, however there does not seem to be a setting for the part spacing, advancing to the next part, etc.  All I see is the first part coordinates, the number of rows and columns, and the row/column starting point.

What am I missing here?  Any advice would be helpful, thanks!

With the 'Feeder basis information' you select the first component in the tray feeder and with the 'Tray feeder information' you select the last component in the tray feeder. You fill in the number of rows and colums and the machine calculates all components in between.

Good luck!

[mikeselectricstuff]

ISTR someone mentioned Neoden have a booth in one of the SEG buildings in Shenzen - anyone know exactly where?
I'm in Hong Kong again later this month and may get a chance to sneak off for another SZ day trip

[vonnieda]

ISTR someone mentioned Neoden have a booth in one of the SEG buildings in Shenzen - anyone know exactly where?
I'm in Hong Kong again later this month and may get a chance to sneak off for another SZ day trip

First floor, west side, visible from the main west entrance, about midway down the west wall of the building.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/22%C2%B032'29.1%22N+114%C2%B005'13.6%22E/@22.5414282,114.0865658,19z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d22.541427!4d114.087113

[coppice]

ISTR someone mentioned Neoden have a booth in one of the SEG buildings in Shenzen - anyone know exactly where?
I'm in Hong Kong again later this month and may get a chance to sneak off for another SZ day trip

SEG is just one building. Pretty much everyone offering kit like Neoden has either a shop or a representative with a shop on there. It's maize like quality makes some of them a little hard to find, though.

[thommo]

Guys,

Can any of you confirm if the Neoden4 'conveyor rails package' is available as a separate purchase? If so do you have an idea of the cost?

Any other, similar conveyors [for the purpose of transporting PCBs through PnP machines] are also likely going to do the trick, if you know of any I'd appreciate the heads up.

Cheers - Peter