Neoden 4 pick and place

[Merlysys]

How to buy this model without having it shipped from China?

If bought from China...How long did it take? From date you paid for it to date it arrived at port?

[rx8pilot]

I look forward to the day that this machine is bundled with OpenPNP or another software option - ready to go.

My current assembly system is working fine, but it is aging. As time marches on, it will become harder and more expensive to keep operational. This Neo4 concept is good (perhaps 2-3 of them ganged together) but I have so little patience for fiddly software.

Every time this thread is updates, I get my hopes up that it is someone offering a packaged and tested hack with all new software.

[Kjelt]

My current assembly system is working fine, but it is aging. As time marches on, it will become harder and more expensive to keep operational.

I don't know. What is the MTBF for this machine vs your quad?
I wonder how sturdy the design is.
Seeing 2nd hand Quads offered for as low as 2k it is more of a question of storage space and preventive maintenance to keep it running.
What happens if the Neoden fails, no service centre , parts need to be shipped from China.
Sure if you have redundant machines you can continue.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Quad-IVC-Pick-and-Place-Machine/152597608544?hash=item238786b860:g:G7oAAOSwTf9ZTXwQ

[rx8pilot]

If someone gave me a Quad IV-C for free - it would still be expensive. Many of the parts are easily sourced, but some very critical ones are not. Side scanning 'Quad Align', the analog NTSC cameras, the capture system, etc....lots of little things that can only be sourced from PPM and they would be very expensive.

If I had the physical room, I would probably buy another machine for spares. My particular setup has the PPM Windows upgrade that includes a PIC chip that handles some sort of authentication, the PC uses an ISA bus for the interface but runs Windows - a unique and hard to find setup.

My fingers are crossed that all keeps working for a 2-3 more years. Just purchased a huge lot of 130+ feeders, have written some custom software to hep me get it programmed quickly, etc....lots of blood sweat and tears.

I have less than $15k in the whole thing - including the latest feeder purchase. So, 230 tape feeders, strip, tube, and trays as well. Not bad until something breaks and PPM wants $4k for a used circuit board. Perhaps an OpenPNP conversion for Quads would be cool. The hardware is rather awesome. The 'Quad Align' is very accurate and aligns every single pick on the fly. The up facing camera is only used for large parts that need critical alignment.

I could not replace this machine for less than $100k if looking at new/typical professional options - even if used. I don't think buying another out-of-production system is a goal of mine.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I look forward to the day that this machine is bundled with OpenPNP or another software option - ready to go.

And decent feeders

[Kjelt]

I could not replace this machine for less than $100k if looking at new/typical professional options - even if used. I don't think buying another out-of-production system is a goal of mine.

So what is it, first you state that if the Neoden is fully supported by OpenPNP you would switch , which I doubt since it is not as robust as a professional machine you now have, then you say that only a professional $100k+ machine will be able to replace it. If you have nly look at the feeders the Neoden is in a total different league IMO.

[rx8pilot]

So what is it, first you state that if the Neoden is fully supported by OpenPNP you would switch , which I doubt since it is not as robust as a professional machine you now have, then you say that only a professional $100k+ machine will be able to replace it. If you have nly look at the feeders the Neoden is in a total different league IMO.

I should clarify....

I like the commercial elements of my current setup with the Quad. Sturdy and clearly designed for 24/7 use. Nothing to complain about...until I get to the maintenance or replacement part. In general, I cannot afford a $100k replacement but I also hesitant to pay big money to keep an old machine running. I am on the lookout for a fairly low cost replacement and it does not need to be amazing - only better than what I have in terms of maintenance costs.

My usage is infrequent, but when I need PCB's I need them NOW. So, like I said, as time marches on, the challenge of keeping a Quad running will increase. At some point a low-cost replacement will be on my radar. If my little biz grows to needing PCB assembly all the time - a high-end machine may make sense. As I am configured now, I can only consider the low cost options and accept the various limitations that come with that.

I only got into the Quad because it was a low-cost of entry and I have been able to expand over time to increase capability. There was never an option to go with a modern, high-end system.

[rx8pilot]

One additional comment....

My Quad took 6 months to make it work at all and roughly 9 months before it was considered part of the process. Most of what you see on eBay is in similar condition and requires considerable elbow grease and additional money. There are no maintenance manuals that I have found so every issue is a learning curve. I had to sort out a huge pile of issues with no documentation to lean on. Mechanical, electrical, and software. I nearly gave up too.

With all the issues of the N4, at least is is most likely going to be assembling PCB's within a few days. The crusty software and fiddly feeders are significant limitations, but it offers more functionality than I had for the 1st 6-9mos of Quad ownership.

In the end, I am happy that I pushed through the challenges with the Quad, but it was not without pain and suffering. I even invented some brand new cuss words to unleash at 2am on a Saturday night.......

[girts]

With all the issues of the N4, at least is is most likely going to be assembling PCB's within a few days. The crusty software and fiddly feeders are significant limitations, but it offers more functionality than I had for the 1st 6-9mos of Quad ownership.

Feeders - not so bad. Really peel box is a pain. Although  it is always possible to install something like fishing lure. Like "madell" did a lot of years ago on first versions.
If you are going to produce always the same things and there is no need to change reels, everything is OK.
Larger TQFP's with fine pitch - forget about them. Need to align them manually anyway. For limited quantities that's not a great problem. Largest problem is software.
So... Things that are not so simple to solve or "must know":
1. must add a dummy component and skip it at position where bottom left fiducial is located. Otherwise machine isn't going to find fiducials in automatic mode. Relative coordinates goes negative? Not a big problem, just China.
2. pattern compare by size really sucks. Tolerances aren't described, pattern list updated only on reboot. Must be great to avoid component placement on side... if possible to get it work correctly...
3. Impossible to switch vibro on/off and change it parameters on the fly (when machine already runs). In addition in my case must rise vibrofeeder for about 1mm or more, otherwise nozzle doesn't touch component perfectly even if Z = -1.
4. "jointly" vision fails on components with significant height (like HC-49). Not a big problem.
5. how works "large component" mode - nobody knows. For me it doesn't work at all. Always fail.
6. digi-reel size: yes, true. That fails. Some reels are 3mm larger than commonly used ones. In addition they are made from hard plastic (AVX tantalum capacitors for example). Hard to install.
7. new project = must enter all feeder settings again. There is no separate "default" feeder list. Only XY and feed/peel strength are default. Wish to see Z, orientation and vacuum delays too in default list.
8. tray feeder current position must be updated manually on each project restart. There is no "pause" and request to change tray when last slot processed. Impossible to bypass pick failure and proceed with next "pocket", always tries the same.
9. coordinate list isn't relative but absolute instead. In addition they use chinese metric system.  No comments.
10. last 3 feeder positions are hard to align because downlooking camera doesn't move so far.
11. if component lies onto uplooking camera glass, strange things begin to happen. May be some additional checking necessary, not so hard to implement in software. BTW - DIP switches on uplooking camera aren't documented, anybody knows what they do?
12. on "skip" components are blown away from nozzle at actual position instead of trash tray location.

There is no any video on youtube where machine runs with hood closed. No reason to do that because something always goes wrong.     


Another thing: nobody knows if there are no additional surprises with software like "switching to chinese language". May be it self-destroys after 1000 runs or something similar. Or is designed for use until 2019. Maybe somebody already tried to forward date?


Opinion - one N4 is not enough to be sure. Must have alternative solutions. OpenPNP - unreasonable if hardware is not "open source" with all schematics and binaries.

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

OpenPNP - unreasonable if hardware is not "open source" with all schematics and binaries.

Not necessarily - shouldn't be hard to reverse-engineer it. Worst-case replace their firmware in feeders etc.

[rx8pilot]

What controller is in the feeders?

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[mikeselectricstuff]

What controller is in the feeders?

Short and misplld from my mobile......

STM32

[rx8pilot]

The mechanics look dubious for small parts. Hacking the control with custom firmware is not likely a giant project at least. Over the past year, I have prioritized 0402/0201 passives on many of my projects that tend to be sized constrained. Those parts are rather unforgiving when it comes to feeders.

I picked up some parts for my Quad today and the company I got them from had a few Assemblyon(spelling?) machines among others. The Yamaha feeders seem really well considered.  These machines, of course, at 10+ years old are still at least 4x the price of an N4.

Part of me thinks that with a good feeder solution, it would be better to have 2-3 N4's (with all the fiddly issues) rather than one baddass commercial machine that is a single point of failure and anytime it breaks it costs a TON to fix them. At least when the N4 broke - I would have 1-2 spares to continue running.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The mechanics look dubious for small parts. Hacking the control with custom firmware is not likely a giant project at least. Over the past year, I have prioritized 0402/0201 passives on many of my projects that tend to be sized constrained. Those parts are rather unforgiving when it comes to feeders.

I picked up some parts for my Quad today and the company I got them from had a few Assemblyon(spelling?) machines among others. The Yamaha feeders seem really well considered.  These machines, of course, at 10+ years old are still at least 4x the price of an N4.

Part of me thinks that with a good feeder solution, it would be better to have 2-3 N4's (with all the fiddly issues) rather than one baddass commercial machine that is a single point of failure and anytime it breaks it costs a TON to fix them. At least when the N4 broke - I would have 1-2 spares to continue running.

Yes - if/when the Chinese really get their act together, multiple cheap machines would almost certainly be a better solution for low to mid-volume assemblers.

[Ice-Tea]

Yes - if/when the Chinese really get their act together, multiple cheap machines would almost certainly be a better solution for low to mid-volume assemblers.

Alas, their design philisophy seems to be stuck in 'barely good enough' mode

[jmelson]

One additional comment....

My Quad took 6 months to make it work at all and roughly 9 months before it was considered part of the process.

Well, maybe I was insanely lucky!  (But, then, I seem to be that way in these sorts of deals.)  I have never even SEEN a P&P machine before.  I did ask a lot of questions and get a lot of advice on SMTNET before committing to a particular machine, over a year period, first.  I had my Philips CSM84 doing the most basic stuff in about 3 days!  I DID get manuals, although they were for a slightly different version of the machine.  But, the setup and software menus were all quite close.    This was NOT an eBay purchase, but I think I got connected with the seller through either eBay or SMTNET.  Not completely sure, as I was asking a lot of questions of anybody who'd give me some advice.

I have had a few things go wrong on it, and recently a major breakdown, that turned out to be copper dust packing into the commutator of the rotation motor, causing a servo fault.
That one took about 3 months to go from first failure to a reproducible error that I could track down.

OH MY GOD, am I glad I'm not soldering chips on boards by HAND, anymore!  (Shudder!)

Jon

[jmelson]

The mechanics look dubious for small parts. Hacking the control with custom firmware is not likely a giant project at least. Over the past year, I have prioritized 0402/0201 passives on many of my projects that tend to be sized constrained. Those parts are rather unforgiving when it comes to feeders.

I picked up some parts for my Quad today and the company I got them from had a few Assemblyon(spelling?) machines among others. The Yamaha feeders seem really well considered.  These machines, of course, at 10+ years old are still at least 4x the price of an N4.

Part of me thinks that with a good feeder solution, it would be better to have 2-3 N4's (with all the fiddly issues) rather than one baddass commercial machine that is a single point of failure and anytime it breaks it costs a TON to fix them. At least when the N4 broke - I would have 1-2 spares to continue running.

Yes, but...

I have a Philips CSM84 (later machines were made under the Assembleon brand) and they are built like a tank!  Actually, the plain CSM84 may have been the best one for robustness.  The nozzle holders are pretty substantial, the nozzles are pieces of (I think) 6mm steel bar stock turned and machined to the desired tip dimensions.  I have no idea how hard the machine was run before I got it (although I think it had fairly low hours) and I've been using it quite lightly for a big production machine.  But, I have done well over 1000 boards, and well over 100K components on it.  I did make a custom nozzle for mine for large chips like FPGAs.  I've been using it for slightly over 10 years now.  I do worry about a major breakdown, but have been able to keep it running so far.

Fairly early, I had the conveyor sensor go out, it would intermittently dump completed boards on the ground, instead of waiting for me to pick it off the conveyor.  I had to wait for it to get bad enough so I could be sure it was the sensor.  I got a part off PLCCenter, a great resource for all sorts of automation components.

The vacuum filters got full of oil, I found an outfit in China that makes replacements.  Cost more to ship them to the US than the filters cost.

A few hoses cracked, I bought replacements by the meter on eBay.

Then, the rotation axis started getting faults, took a while to even understand what the error message REALLY meant.  Got it fixed for ZERO $, once I finally understood the problem (copper dust in the commutator.)

But, yes, if a servo amp, the main computer board, or the I/O controller goes bad, I will likely have to decide whether to pour serious money into the machine or get another one.

I would like to have a machine with a vision alignment for the higher-density chips.  But, as long as this one is still working, I'm not going to make a big move.

Jon

[Suntee Sun]

Hello friends and NeoDen customers,

Thanks so much for your attention to NeoDen brand and support to us. If any questions during your using our equipment, please feel free to inform us, we will help you and offer our solutions within 24 hours.
If any new inquiry please email to us---neodensales@neodentech.com, we will reply you all the details ASAP.

Thanks again!
-Suntee from NeoDen

[ascarrul]

So I have had the Neoden 4 since the fall of last year.

Its actually not a bad machine for the price and once you figure out its quirks, its not too bad to operate.

 By far the biggest problem is that the fiducial system does not work too well. It seems that it is unable to calculate small board rotations, and instead will just scale the X and Y coordinates. The result is that if the board is not perfectly square when its loaded the parts will be offset . This makes the rails system almost useless if you have 0603 parts. I raised this issue with the Neoden CSR and even provided a video example, but so far there has been no real answer. Hopefully they issue a software fix for this in the near future.

[Suntee Sun]

Hello ascarrul,

Thanks for your message. Whether for small boards or not square boards or normal boards when feed them into NeoDen4 rails, we depend on two diagonal fiducials to calculate all components area and also detect board rotations, after pick components and take photos by NeoDen4 up-looking camera, on the way to place components, it will correct the angle offset automatically.

Now our newest version of NeoDen is v4.1.3.2, you can kindly email to our support to upgrade your NeoDen4.

Thank you!
-Suntee

[girts]

Now our newest version of NeoDen is v4.1.3.2, you can kindly email to our support to upgrade your NeoDen4.

Why not to simply put it on some FTP and post link here?

This topic contains a lot of unanswered questions. Why not to answer them here once and for all?
Or you prefer copy/paste in your mail box? If so - where is a reason?

[zwheat]

Hello ascarrul,

Thanks for your message. Whether for small boards or not square boards or normal boards when feed them into NeoDen4 rails, we depend on two diagonal fiducials to calculate all components area and also detect board rotations, after pick components and take photos by NeoDen4 up-looking camera, on the way to place components, it will correct the angle offset automatically.

Now our newest version of NeoDen is v4.1.3.2, you can kindly email to our support to upgrade your NeoDen4.

Thank you!
-Suntee

How exactly are we to update our machines? When we email you, do we just receive a download file and we install via the usb ports?

[Suntee Sun]

Hello ascarrul,
We prefer reply by official emails one reason is for customers record and another reason is we can offer a one-to-one technical support to service them carefully.
We released NeoDen4 in 2015, now it had a little change on its hardware. we first need to know the Version and Series code of machine they are using and then offer the corresponding solutions for upgrade.

Hello girts,
We first will ask the software version and SN code they are using and then offer our upgrade support on software and hardware.

Thanks a lot!
-Suntee

[girts]

Not necessarily - shouldn't be hard to reverse-engineer it. Worst-case replace their firmware in feeders etc.

Not sure, seems that not a simple job. Chinese think different.
There is a strange mix of CAN, LIN and UART running at 500kbs.
SBF + 2x command (some bits seems used as checksum) + 8x data(response) + 1x checksum.
Almost impossible to log line due to lot of noise. Tx Rx on CAN driver works much better.
Anyway, reason to reverse this thing is very questionable. Because it works, and not so bad...
Somebody asked about real placement speed. Average on my designs = 1600...1800 cph.

Thanks so much for your attention to NeoDen brand and support to us. If any questions during your using our equipment, please feel free to inform us, we will help you and offer our solutions within 24 hours.
If any new inquiry please email to us---neodensales@neodentech.com, we will reply you all the details ASAP.

24 hours, you said?
Mail sent 2 days ago, no response. Except delivery notification.
May be too much questions? Or too busy?
Will wait...
 

[rx8pilot]

Somebody asked about real placement speed. Average on my designs = 1600...1800 cph.

What are the smallest parts you use on average? Can you get good reliability with 0402 at that rate?