Neoden 4 pick and place

[girts]

What are the smallest parts you use on average? Can you get good reliability with 0402 at that rate?

Mostly 0805. Seems that there will be no big problems with 0603 too.
0402 - no such projects, I will buy QUAD if any.
 

[TheSteve]

We have no issues with 0603 but would avoid 0402.

[Suntee Sun]

Hello girts,

Sorry we just back from our weekends today, we noticed all your questions and concerns and will reply you now by email.

Please kindly wait!
-Suntee from NeoDen

[girts]

Thank you, mail and update file received. P&P machine still working in English...

Camera angle checking and adjust - ohhh... simple things, implementation really fails. Why not to place 2 points on screen and ask user to move pp head between them? That's all what's necessary to calculate right angle I think.
In my case angle is about 0.7xxx degree. SW allows to enter -1, 0, 1, 2... and so on in 1 degree steps... Reason why all this floating point mathematics necessary is very questionable. 

Anyway, most important questions are still unclear for me and may be for the most of community.

Q: 3) pattern check by dimensions - what are the tolerances?
A: 3.When you set the correct footprint and set the suitable brightness value,normally the component will be recognized by the machine(the correction box encircle the component). So the machine will calculate the offset and place the component to the correct position. There is no tolerance concept in here, the correction box shows correctly, then component will be placed correctly.

there is always some concept... So... going to practical example: if component real size is 2x3 mm, pattern sizes are set to 2.2 x 2.8 - what will happen? May be somebody already performed some experiments?

Q: 4) large component fiducial check - what are requirements? How it works?
A: 4.For the big component fiducials.Using smaller mark points diameter will help increase the accuracy. For the big component mark point selecting, please refer the attached methods summarize. Sometimes,creat two working files, one for the normal component mounting,other for the big component mounting, will help mounting accuracy.

May be wrong question. Actually I asked about feeder settings -> vision type -> possible options: no vision, individual, jointly, large component. "LARGE COMPONENT" - that's what I actually mean...

Q: 5) is there a possibility to switch on / off /adjust vibro feeder parameters "on the fly" - may be there is some hotkey available?
A: 5.In current software, there is not hotkey to control the vibration feeder. The vibration feeder can be switched on in the manual test interface and the mounting interface. The vibration feeder frequency and strength can be set in the system setup interface. The frequency and strength values depends by your tube component type.

May be planned in some future update?

Q: 6)  tray feeder current position must be updated manually on each project restart. There is no "pause" and request to change tray when last slot processed. In addition it is impossible to bypass pick failure and proceed with next "pocket", always tries the same. May be there is a simple solution here? How to skip "pocket" and force device to go to next "pocket"? How to force "PAUSE" to change tray?
A: 6.If the tray feeder position is same as before,then there is no need to update it. Only when the tray position has been changed, then need set its pick up position and top right position again.
After the last slot processed, the placement head will go to the first slot to pick up the chip again. You can manually pause this, then change a new tray. Or the machine will fail to pick up, after several pick up fails the machine will stop and pop up an error message, then we can change the tray.
If the pick up failed error message shows, click the "Ignore" button, then will skip this component.

That's clear. Wish to see some additional option like: "GO TO PARKING". Then another message box with "GO BACK"/"RETURN" and 1st message box with options again. Otherwise it's a real pain to change reels. Very simple to implement into software if source code already available, isn't it? Park place location - adjustable  in system settings like trash tray location, XY...

Sorry for copy/paste, anyway I think that a lack of good user manual is a real problem for most users. Nothing secret and private copy-pasted, just technical information.

[zwheat]

Hi guys,

Im working with 2 neoden 4 pick and place machines, and Im having an issue with the nozzle not traveling all the way down to the parts tray to pick parts up, but only when running a pnp file. If i do a pick test while editing the file, it travels the necessary distance and works just fine. Any idea whats going on??

Also, does anyone know why, when i run nozzle 1 or 2, sometimes the other nozzle with click down as well? Its not normally a problem but it is a bit annoying and I dont want the other nozzle to go pushing parts off

[Suntee Sun]

Hello zwheat,

Thanks for your support to NeoDen brand. Actually we are not always on these blogs, in case of we missed your questions on blogs, we kindly suggest you email to us directly thus we can see it and reply you ASAP.

Thanks so much for your kind understanding.

Suntee from NeoDen

[rx8pilot]

Hello zwheat,

Thanks for your support to NeoDen brand. Actually we are not always on these blogs, in case of we missed your questions on blogs, we kindly suggest you email to us directly thus we can see it and reply you ASAP.

Thanks so much for your kind understanding.

Suntee from NeoDen

Building a public community goes a very long way. I would consider participation in forums, public discussions, You Tube, etc. You will learn about your customers and be able to deliver a better product. If you are closed and secretive - it pushes a lot of people away.
You may end up with some 'ambassadors' that push and support your product just because they like it. Treat them well - send them some accessories or upgrades while they build a user community and stimulate sales.

This may fall on deaf ears, but it is worth saying.

[jamesod]

I've had my NeoDen 4 up and running for about 5 months now with no major issues except a feeder breaking.
I came in to work today planning on assembling some boards, and the NeoDen won't turn on. I have the same issue tony-tid had. The switch lights up (dimly) if I hit the EStop, but nothing if the EStop is released.
I expected some problems with this machine, and I've been pretty happy with the mechanical components. This is frustrating though. How hard is it to get a power supply right?
Waiting for a response from NeoDen, in the meantime, has anyone else seen this problem? I'm hoping it doesn't keep me down too long. I need to get boards out ASAP!

[ronmetrix]

hi guys<
Just new in this forum. I want to seek advise on what to do with our neoden 4 pnp. We first encounter vacuum problem and then head xy ordinate. We first reboot but same error occur with xy ordinate then check power supply we found out that theres no 24v coming out from the signal cable of the head.

[uski]

I am looking into buying a NeoDen 4 and will keep watching this thread for information regarding the current status of the software and its limitations.

Neoden, if you are reading this, please note it is very important to participate in the forums, prospective buyers like me look here before buying

[Merlysys]

I am looking into buying a NeoDen 4 and will keep watching this thread for information regarding the current status of the software and its limitations.

Neoden, if you are reading this, please note it is very important to participate in the forums, prospective buyers like me look here before buying

Looking to buy same, whereabouts in the country are you?
I am in Georgetown, ON...that is North West of Toronto.

[TankSparks]

Neoden 4  Part 1
Here are my notes on the Neoden 4
Over 82000 parts placed so far

1) Does a good job with fiducials. 
2) Quick and easy to load feeders (2 min) despite clearance issue when inserting reel
3) Programmable feeder pitch.  No messing with mechanical setup like on older machines.
4) You can preview part locations with camera,  this is useful to verify your x,y data
5) To use xy data I had to copy and paste into their .csv file (comma delimited file) I'm ok with that.  The fact that is uses a text file is great.   I may automate that process (anybody else is welcome to it)
6) Does not require an air compressor.
7) No fork lift required,  fits through a door,  two people can move it around.
Can place 0603,0805,   did not test with 0402

Our Neoden has No rails  and have never used vibe feeder
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Issues
We  use fiducials...For proper placement I have to program it my way.   Following there instructions doesn't work for me.  See my other post with screen shots about that. 

Brightness adjustment is global not per part.  This a problem..
 Top and bottom Vision seems to be pretty smart.  Accurately knows where the pins are on the chip, it draws an outline around the pins,  you will see this on the screen so you know if its working correctly,  we had to reduce flash brightness.   Unfortunately brightness adjustment is global and not per part,  that’s a problem as some parts may need more brightness or less brightness,  that’s a shame because it does work really well when you have the brightness setting right.  Right now we get some placement errors sometimes because we have to compromise on brightness, some parts may require 80% and others 60% so we settle for 70% and get a few errors. 

Acceleration is too harsh, and may move part on nozzle.   look how harsh it moves when it moves over the camera for individual pictures.  We had to do a certain  part one at a time because of that

Really need to have retries programmable per part by the user.  Its a global value set by neoden.  You can’t adjust it!!!   I have many $3.00 FTDI chips on the floor. (note that my 24mm FTDI feeder works ok now that I have right feed and peel values)  I would set retries to 0. 
.
You have to adjust column width when entering data,  in some cases there is plenty of room to .make them wider.    How hard would it be to fix that. 

If you want to use a strip of small parts as a tray you need to have it perfectly lined up.  No software feature to compensate for poor alignment, 

Picking up from tray…
Can't force it to next location on tray during a production run.  You will need to exit and fix that.... then restart production where you left off.  At least its capable of doing that.  Tip:  hit save button before exiting, so it remembers where to start in tray next time.  Why did they not make it save automatically

Would be nice if you could single step the feeders to correct position, instead of manually moving the tape

Software improvements required

Brightness level for each component
Adjustable acceleration.
Auto adjust pick height
Z height is weird,    0 should equal top of PCB board.
Improve screen layout

[Saak]

Hi guys,

Just ordered a N4 + PM3040 printer + T-962C oven, should arrive in 2 weeks.
I've read carefully all your post and I'd like to thank all of you for being so generous sharing your knowledge.
Looking forward to do the same.

I have 2 questions:
1 - Is there a way to import / export the csv files with an USB flash drive ?
2 - One of the board I have to assemble is a 2.4mm thick PCB. I Haven't found a setting for that. Is there one ?

Thanks

[tony-tid]

Hello everyone!
I have NeoDen4 with visio system and vibration, so I have two - three questions...
I've watch a video about NeoDen4 with visio that take a picture from all four nozzels at once, not one by one.

1. My NeoDen4 take one by one picture of the nozzels, so is there anyway to make it to take from all nozzels at once?   RESOLVED
2. Where I can find a firmware update file (if there is available update)? My current version s v4.1.2 B3 
3. Someone else except me to have problems with placing LTST-G563ZEGBW (SMD RBG LEDS)?? Sometimes the nozzel don't let/place the led ( keep moving with it on it), after trying to place it. RESOLVED

[rom67]

Here is the list of bugfix and fitures of NeoDen4 firmwares

v0.9.4.2   19/08/2015   1. Add a mode into head movement window -keyboard control movement
                        2.Password protection enabled based on Machine code
                        3. The number failed pickups attempts is 5
                        4."Angle detection" will be available on panelized board mode
                        5.Feeder cordinates to be interchangable
                        6. Revise the issue of setting down-looking camera and nozzle 1 relative postion.
                        7.Revise the issue of skip placing 1st part on each panel
v0.9.4.3   26/08/2015   1.Optimize fiducials recognition 2.Optimize working speed
v0.9.4.4   28/08/2015   1.Optimize fiducials recognition 2.Optimize accuracy
v0.9.4.5   29/09/2015   1.After click " feeder exchange" feeders' information should be all changed
                           2. Placement head movement, a fast or continuous click will lower its movement speed
                           3.Lower the brightness of down-looking camera
                           4. Precise error reporting on step-out issue on a pop up screen
                           5.The imported file can't be duplicated with any file that exists
                           7. Revise the issue of pressing "Esc" accidently, the machine won't stop PnP.
                           8. Optimize the function of angle detection of board
                           9.Revise the issue, that the default setting of feeders in file are not aligned with that in system
                           10.The fiducials can be negative value
                           11. Camera Zoom Option optimized to accomodate Bigger QFP ICs
v0.9.4.5   23/11/2015   1.Revise of skipping a component during "multi-rails" mode accidently
v4.0.1 B01   01/12/2015   1. Add new function. The initial angle and brightness of up-looking camera can be supported
                        2.Add new function. coordinate in CAD file could be converted to machine absolute coordinate
                        3.Can control the brightness of Light source of Down Looking camera for a better fiducial capture
                        andfiducial point references are now more accurately captured with the user definable size and width
                        4.Will recognize the issue of part's abnormal condition.
                        5.Add new function. Larger part is supported. But it should be square or with little circle on each angle.
v4.0.1 B02   02/12/2015   1. Revise the issue of large component can't be seen completely
                           2. The fiducial brightness could be automatic
v4.0.2 B01   22/12/2015   1. Will blow after three times pickup failure, will throw parts after six times
                           2. Optimize fiducials recognation
v4.0.2 B02   29/12/2015   1. The flashlight will be inner light source once revising the relative position of down-looking cameraand Nozzle 1
v4.0.2 B03   30/12/2015   1. All the new feeders'ID is 50
v4.0.2 B04   06/01/2016   1. Revise English translation issue
v4.0.2 B05   08/01/2016   1. Revise the issue that feeders won't be available during "Multi rails" mode
v4.0.2 B06   09/01/2016   1.Will throw part after 6 times' failed pickup attempt with vacuum test on,click "Yes"to try again
v4.0.2 B07   12/01/2016   1.Can change the speed of Fiducials test (only applied for internal test)
v4.0.2 B08   18/01/2016   1.Prolong the blow time during throwing large component
                           2.Add minmum size of fiducials, which will be more recognizable on white board
v4.0.3 B01   01/04/2016   1.The vibration feeder can be turned on mount screen.
                           2.After converting to absolute coordinate, manual recolonization of fiducials are available.
v4.0.4 B02   01/05/2016   1.Add the mirror function for double sided board
v4.0.4 B05   29/11/2016   1.Add a "Skip" option on the pickup failure screen, rather than only continue or stop.
                           2. Add the "Feed Test" function on "Feeder Configuration" screen.
v4.1.1 B2   20/02/2017   Increase special feeders to 50
v4.1.1 B3   01/03/2017   Revise translation issue
v4.1.1 B4   04/03/2017   No need to enter password againwhen change language
v4.1.1 B7   20/03/2017   Revise translation issue
v4.1.2 B3   22/05/2017   Revise recognization issue of camera
v4.1.2 B4   28/08/2017   1. Add row skip and column skip functions in edit interface and processing interface (select from thedrop-down box in the component list)
                           2. Add search function in edit interface (via coordinate search)
v4.1.2 B5   21/09/2017   1.translate some words which is in Chinese
v4.1.2 B6   30/10/2017   Fix the coordinate error bug after click the "to current position" button
v4.1.2 B9   16/11/2017   1. Add the function of measuring the initial angle of the up-looking camera
                           2. The four nozzle vacuum detection pressure values can set separately.
v4.1.3 B1   01/12/2017   Optimize Chinese and English translation
v4.1.3 B2   05/12/2017   1.Optimize Chinese and English translation2.Optimize UI

[girts]

I have many $3.00 FTDI chips on the floor. (note that my 24mm FTDI feeder works ok now that I have right feed and peel values)  I would set retries to 0.

Hundreds of SSOP-30 and thousands of SSOP-20 placed without any problems if picked from tray... Using original SAMSUNG nozzle. Because bigger ones supplied with N4 have issue - they have free play (no centering groove). By the way - small nozzles already have it. May be initial pickup angle (which is more accurate if picked from tray) and "limited alignment try count" is your issue.

problems with placing LTST-G563ZEGBW (SMD RBG LEDS)?? Sometimes the nozzel don't let/place the led ( keep moving with it on it), after trying to place it.

May be wrong pick / place height settings. Or wrong nozzle. Anyway, machine has no option to "blow off" component from nozzle. Only vacuum, so placement of these "sticky" parts most likely is a problem.

[TankSparks]

 

machine has no option to "blow off" component from nozzle. Only vacuum,

The machine does blow,or at least has the ability to, it has a 220vac aquarium pump inside, but being on 110vac here its not as strong, I was told by Neoden that is fine.  You can also test it in diagnostic and get pressure numbers if you plug nozzle hole with your finger. 


 

[girts]

The machine does blow,or at least has the ability to, it has a 220vac aquarium pump inside, but being on 110vac here its not as strong, I was told by Neoden that is fine.  You can also test it in diagnostic and get pressure numbers if you plug nozzle hole with your finger. 

Are you sure? Vacuum, not pressure.
220 or 110 - doesn't matter, they are 12 or 24v DC driven.

[TheSteve]

The machine does blow,or at least has the ability to, it has a 220vac aquarium pump inside, but being on 110vac here its not as strong, I was told by Neoden that is fine.  You can also test it in diagnostic and get pressure numbers if you plug nozzle hole with your finger. 

Are you sure? Vacuum, not pressure.
220 or 110 - doesn't matter, they are 12 or 24v DC driven.

100% sure it has a "blow" pump in it. It is nothing more then an aquarium pump as TankSparks said. Our 120 VAC unit included a 220 VAC pump, it still works but has less pressure.

I have many $3.00 FTDI chips on the floor. (note that my 24mm FTDI feeder works ok now that I have right feed and peel values)  I would set retries to 0.

Hundreds of SSOP-30 and thousands of SSOP-20 placed without any problems if picked from tray... Using original SAMSUNG nozzle. Because bigger ones supplied with N4 have issue - they have free play (no centering groove). By the way - small nozzles already have it. May be initial pickup angle (which is more accurate if picked from tray) and "limited alignment try count" is your issue.

We're picking the FTDI chips from tape, if they were in a tray it would probably be more reliable.

[zwheat]

Im having an issue with one of my Neodens, Where, when i try placing a part, the nozzle next to the one that places the part will follow it down right after, and hit the board, potentially sending parts flying and making a mess of my board... 

Anyone know why it is doing this, and how to stop it??

[ascarrul]

Check to make sure the placement height for the part is not set too low. Both nozzles will come down when one of the nozzle pushes too far down. This happens to me when i am placing a tall part and a forget to change the place height from the default.

[GEORGE12]

Neoden4 @  mHUBchicago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=SNt1YKkGBvA

[smirnoff]

Good afternoon.
Question to the technical specialist installer components neoden 4.

The installer does not want to give a fee to the conveyor.
Writes "rail busy" after installing all components.
What signal should come to the conveyor connector?
The sensor that was bundled with the NeodDen  stands on the left at the entrance of the boards.
Pipeline native, is right at the exit boards.
When measured by the tester on the terminals of the conveyor connector connected to NeoDen , 0 V, when the last sensor is closed on the conveyor 3.3 V.

[luiHS]

 
Hello

I'm going to buy this machine, and I have some doubts.

1.- Have you solved in any way, the placement of high components? According to the characteristics, the maximum height would be only 5mm, but this leaves out a good part of electrolytic capacitors, power inductors and others. The manufacturer tells me that they are going to make some personalized nozzles with which I can put components, as long as they do not exceed 10mm, but that still leaves me with a 13mm high capacitor.

2.- How does the machine place the TQFP100 and TQFP144?

3.- What maximum height of component allows you to put in the feeder with reel?, For example to put some electrolytic capacitors that reach 7-8mm high.

4.- For integrated SOIC, of 14/16 pins, which is better, put it on tape/reel or tube on the vibration feeder?

5.- Do the internal rails seem useful or can you do without them and save 1000 USD?

Greetings.

[PrintTec]

to all of you interested in a Neoden machine or if you need support;

please contact Neoden or a Neoden distributor only!

do not ask anybody else for support than the OEM or distributor in order to avoid damage

there are several systems and versions and we are willing and able to help you properly

please visit http://www.printtec.nl/contents/en-uk/d596_NeoDen_pick___place_machines_with_vision.html
for Europe, USA or EMEA distribution and support; we stock the product for you!