Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 593535 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3063
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1325 on: March 20, 2018, 04:19:30 pm »
Are you honnestly suggesting peer support is a bad thing?

Offline ar__systems

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 516
  • Country: ca
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1326 on: March 20, 2018, 04:48:04 pm »
LOL

Hey, can I purchase a conveyor only?
 

Offline PrintTec

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 6
  • Country: nl
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1327 on: March 21, 2018, 10:45:48 am »
dear ROM67

please do not put this kind of info on the web anymore

what happens is that peiople start sharing other versions of software than are possible to use on their version of hardware (machine)

big costs by damage are then the result

you don;t want  that to happoen do you?

please understand, that is there is anything you want to ask or need support with, only contact and consult Neoden HQ or us as distributor!

www.neodentech.com / www.neodentech.eu / www.electronicatools.com
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6459
  • Country: nl
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1328 on: March 21, 2018, 11:22:57 am »
what happens is that peiople start sharing other versions of software than are possible to use on their version of hardware (machine)
big costs by damage are then the result
Which is entirely the fault of a company not digitally signing their firmware so wrong versions will not install on an inappropriate machine.
You can't blame any customer when the manufacturer is clueless about proper software distribution and software lifecycle management.

BTW why did Printtec stop selling the excellent Polish P&P machines?
 

Offline l0wside

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • Country: de
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1329 on: March 21, 2018, 02:19:59 pm »
Nice you joined - now how about taking the opportunity and answering the questions right here where anyone interested can read your reply?
 

Offline girts

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: lv
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1330 on: March 22, 2018, 11:12:23 am »
BTW why did Printtec stop selling the excellent Polish P&P machines?
I think I have answer.
Nobody will buy a 4x slower M10V for a 3x price of N4.
 

Offline girts

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: lv
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1331 on: March 22, 2018, 11:22:33 am »
dear ROM67
big costs by damage are then the result
That's not a rocket science. It is just PnP machine. CNC with additional functionality.
If somebody wish to make experiments, it is his own problem.
What's wrong if somebody publishes bug fix list?
If I see that there are only some translation errors fixed in latest FW, and I already have previous one, not a big reason to disturb you for individual updates, right?
About peer to peer support - got only formal answers and outdated manuals. Nothing useful. That's not what we need.
 

Offline mairo

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 218
  • Country: au
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1332 on: March 23, 2018, 11:36:25 pm »
BTW why did Printtec stop selling the excellent Polish P&P machines?
I think I have answer.
Nobody will buy a 4x slower M10V for a 3x price of N4.

Are you trying to say that the N4 is a better product than M10V based on just price and datasheet speeds?
Have you ask yourself why there is no one asking questions around the web how to operate theirs M10V, how to fix various issues, or people just complaining about it, and in this forum alone there are 54 pages pretty much about issues with N4?
M10V costs more, but it works out of the box and it has excellent support if you ever need such, not to mention it will place larger variety of parts and has much better software. You say speed - I wonder how well N4 works at 100% speed with various parts?

The main reason people are buying N4s and all other similar alternatives is because they do not have the money to put towards a better system and willing to live/work around with its faults - nothing too wrong with all this,we all need to start from somewhere. Printtec are just a distributor and all they would care is to have a product that would sell so they can make profit at the end of the day.

Do not get me wrong, I hope Neoden can improve their products in the future and still keep the low cost so that more people can have the opportunity to have access to such equipment, but I also hope western manufacturers can also keep out with this competition, if not in price at least on quality and features provided.
 
The following users thanked this post: Smallsmt

Offline girts

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: lv
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1333 on: March 24, 2018, 05:00:33 pm »
Are you trying to say that the N4 is a better product than M10V based on just price and datasheet speeds?
Have you ask yourself why there is no one asking questions around the web how to operate theirs M10V, how to fix various issues, or people just complaining about it, and in this forum alone there are 54 pages pretty much about issues with N4?
For me - yes. I don't need to place parts higher than 5 mm and I don't need loose components tray. Both machines are limited to 0603. Because for 0402 some machine weight is necessary.
Feeder bank ideology (M10V) if there is no "hot swap" option is useless.
Nozzle changer on M10V compared with 4 nozzles always mounted on N4 heads is not a bonus.

54 pages - really useful and helpful are may be 2 or 3.
All issues are software related, mostly caused by outdated manuals and "chinese think different".
Another reason - it is very simple to find 10 N4 users, but hard to find people with M10V. And, of course, there are mostly individuals communicating on forum boards, not employees of larger companies.

M10V costs more, but it works out of the box and it has excellent support if you ever need such, not to mention it will place larger variety of parts and has much better software. You say speed - I wonder how well N4 works at 100% speed with various parts?
May be. I really communicated with Mechatronika. Can't say they are friendly and open for communication. Even to get price list taked one week of intensive communication via e-mail.
About N4 placement speed - that's unbelievable, but it works fine at 100% except for some heavy parts.

The main reason people are buying N4s and all other similar alternatives is because they do not have the money to put towards a better system and willing to live/work around with its faults - nothing too wrong with all this,we all need to start from somewhere. Printtec are just a distributor and all they would care is to have a product that would sell so they can make profit at the end of the day.
10k and 30k eur.... if one for 10k does all you need 4x faster... reason to spend 30k for may be better software is very questionable.
M10V I think is stuck in 2010 - there was no so much alternatives to buy in 2010.

Do not get me wrong, I hope Neoden can improve their products in the future and still keep the low cost so that more people can have the opportunity to have access to such equipment, but I also hope western manufacturers can also keep out with this competition, if not in price at least on quality and features provided.
Really I don't like to support China and their "good enough to sell" ideology. But... I think European / American manufacturers must be more flexible. They are stuck in 90's with all their "corporative games". Worst thing is that Neoden tries to play according to their rules, which are incompatible with selling for masses what they try to do.

OK, that's just a lyrics...
 

Offline Zoe

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: cn
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1334 on: May 15, 2018, 03:17:11 am »
I am looking into buying a NeoDen 4 and will keep watching this thread for information regarding the current status of the software and its limitations.

Neoden, if you are reading this, please note it is very important to participate in the forums, prospective buyers like me look here before buying
Hello uski, I'm Zoe from NeoDen Tech. It's nice to know you. My colleague told me this forum today.  I think you are right. We will participate more in this forums in the future. Thanks for your advise. Really helpful!
 

Offline sd.reza.hosseini

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: de
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1335 on: May 16, 2018, 07:39:19 am »
Thank you for sharing your neoden 4 desk/design
 

Offline charliex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 336
  • Country: 00
  • Car Hacker
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1336 on: June 11, 2018, 06:30:52 pm »
anyone managed to get PCB rotation working on the 4? i did all the detect angle. but even if i make it crazy at 10 degrees nothing rotates when i mount it, the rotation is in the csv as well.

going back and forth with their support team who are repsonsive, but language barrier seems to be kicking in, since i want whole board rotation to account for mounting errors and not individual part rotation.
 

Offline radit68i

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: bg
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1337 on: June 16, 2018, 11:33:07 am »
Can the maschine change nozzle automatically on head for different size of component?
 

Offline luiHS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 591
  • Country: es
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1338 on: June 16, 2018, 11:58:23 am »
Can the maschine change nozzle automatically on head for different size of component?

The machine has 4 nozzles on the head, no need for a nozzle change system, it is better and faster, unless you need to use more than 4 different models of nozzles on the same PCB.

For me it is perfect the head of four nozzles of the N4, I have this machine and I am very satisfied.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1339 on: June 17, 2018, 10:13:01 am »
Can the maschine change nozzle automatically on head for different size of component?

The machine has 4 nozzles on the head, no need for a nozzle change system, it is better and faster, unless you need to use more than 4 different models of nozzles on the same PCB.

For me it is perfect the head of four nozzles of the N4, I have this machine and I am very satisfied.
It's not ideal for throughput but would probably be OK for most applications. Pity they didn't build in tool-change though as it's not that hard to do and gives a lot more flexibility. They'd have to improve their software to make good use of it though.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline luiHS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 591
  • Country: es
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1340 on: June 23, 2018, 06:11:34 am »
Hi.

Does anyone know how to add a new component to the footprint library?
I only see the text options, with name, width, length and thickness, but there is no option to add the image of the component for recognition with the video camera.

I have looked at the videos and manuals, and nothing is explained. I have consulted the support of Neoden, but what I have answered for now, does not clarify anything, they tell me the same thing that it says in the manual.

Surely my concept of what it is to add a component to the footprint library, does not match the way to configure the software, but in that case I do not understand how the machine will recognize a new component if it is not previously captured with the video camera to be able to recognize it and position it in its correct position.

I am also now working with Eagle ULP to export the list of components to Neoden4, I still do not understand why the ULP requests the position of the first component. All my PCBs include two fiducials, so the idea is for Neoden4 to detect the fiducials and automatically calculate the actual position of all the components on the PCB.

At this moment there are two things I do not like of Neoden4, they are based on the very old Windows XP and besides in chinese language. And to turn off the machine, there is a button in the software that shutdown the Windows, but it restart again and again, from Neoden support they say that as soon as I see black screen I put to OFF position the switch of machine, a bit sloppy.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 06:43:33 am by luiHS »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1341 on: June 23, 2018, 12:36:20 pm »
Hi.

Does anyone know how to add a new component to the footprint library?
I only see the text options, with name, width, length and thickness, but there is no option to add the image of the component for recognition with the video camera.

I have looked at the videos and manuals, and nothing is explained. I have consulted the support of Neoden, but what I have answered for now, does not clarify anything, they tell me the same thing that it says in the manual.

Surely my concept of what it is to add a component to the footprint library, does not match the way to configure the software, but in that case I do not understand how the machine will recognize a new component if it is not previously captured with the video camera to be able to recognize it and position it in its correct position.


Not familiar with the N4 SW but all it should need is the part length,width and height number of feeder indexes,plus some threshold adjustments if necessary for reliable vision.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline luiHS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 591
  • Country: es
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1342 on: June 24, 2018, 07:34:37 am »
Not familiar with the N4 SW but all it should need is the part length,width and height number of feeder indexes,plus some threshold adjustments if necessary for reliable vision.


Yes it is. I thought that the machine had to capture an image of the component with the video camera, and those images were saved in the footprint library.

Much simpler than I thought, right now my question is how to define the components that do not have square or rectangular shapes. For example I have a socket for micro SD cards, which is not rectangular, has a small highlight on one side, which matches the shape of the SD card. I have also seen some SMD inductors of round or octagonal shapes. And another thing that I do not know, is if when entering the dimensions of a chip, these should take into account the pins, or simply the encapsulation.

I have ask all questions to Bryan of Neoden, I hope he will reply to me on Monday, and practically Im ready to do my first test.
 

Offline charliex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 336
  • Country: 00
  • Car Hacker
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1343 on: June 24, 2018, 08:04:14 pm »
i don't believe there is way, it does not appear to use template/image matching, builds a box, finds the centre, calcs rotation/offset.

for the ulp you're using (i'm guessing ray's) what he is doing is moving all the components to the physical location of them on the machine, so its 1:1 that doesn't work super well if you move the pcb or use the conveyor

so what i did was add all the components in the ulp, choose rail or fixed, if rail then set the distance of detect Y to make the machine 's head can reach the far side of the board.

then for the first component to match the location in left bottom, detect the angle with pcb angle, then add one panel with create panelised list. then add three fiducials, i used corners , neoden says use two which likely means the software can't correct for shear or contraction/expansion. the order of them, does matter, they either have to be clockwise or anticlockwise (don't recall off hand) but if you do them out of order it'll position the computed board into outer space.

once you've done that and fiducials are aligned use mark align after positioning of fiducials, all your other components should be right. you can reload the pcb and test it with the move to current position button thats on the right side (and not documented anywhere i've seen ) the machine will then go look at the fiducials and do any corrections if the fiducials are out of the camera viewpoint entirely, it won't find them.

initially i punched in the coordinates of the fiducials from my board ulp since if you mark them by hand they'd be offset from the rest of the board

i've been updating the dp tm220 script for eagle for the neoden4, its getting close.





 

Offline tboicey

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: ca
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1344 on: June 25, 2018, 02:29:38 am »
Expressing interest in this Eagle script for Neoden!

I actually have the Neoden 3V advanced (44 feeders) and I've been using the neoden4-mount.ulp from rays hobby.

It works, but the rotations are often wrong, so I have to make a throwaway board on two sided tape and tweak before it's ready to go.

I suspect it has to do with differences between the tape feeder locations of the 3 and 4, and also because my 3V has feeder banks on the side and the back which have different feed orientations. However the rotation mistakes don't always seem predictable, so it might be something I don't quite understand yet.

I would be available to run tests on the script with the 3V and see if it can be tweaked to do both reliably. This script looks like it can help matching new boards to the existing stacks in the machine, which is great. Part of the reason I sprung for all the feeders is to be able to leave all the cheap and common passives in the feeders forever. Buy $20 worth of 1k/10k/100k 1% 0805 resistors and leave them spooled on for months.

Cheers.

 

Offline charliex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 336
  • Country: 00
  • Car Hacker
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1345 on: June 25, 2018, 05:30:42 am »
yeah i had the same problem with rays script on the N4 too also not double sided, and there are a lot of GUI annoyances in the neoden software so trying to move as much of it as possible to the PC side.

you can configure the number of reels in the code of the script too. and then have a DB of different stacks that you can save/load (which is all in the original DP tm220 scripts i'm just doing the "98" reels and extra settings)

i will try to extend it to autofill similar to how the n4 software does it too.

hopefully i'll have a test version ready to play with soon.
 

Offline luiHS

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 591
  • Country: es
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1346 on: June 25, 2018, 06:32:20 pm »
 
Today I tried to start with the first test and to my surprise when I tried everything in the test menu, the main camera did not work.

I contacted Bryan of Neoden, and he had me dismantle all the feeders on the side of the camera, plus several screws to access the camera to check the wiring. It was already late, and he stayed to continue tomorrow.

I kept trying things, until it occurred to me that they could be my USB connections, which were affecting the camera. To not have duplicate mouse, keyboard and monitor, I share those of my PC computer, I have connected a VGA to HDMI converter, and with a 5-meter HDMI cable to my PC monitor, and for the keyboard-mouse, I connected a USB cable 5 meters that reaches my table, and there I have a HUB with keyboard, mouse, USB pendrive and other devices. When I want to use keyboard and mouse with the Neoden4, I disconnect the HUB cable from my PC, and connect it to the USB cable that comes from the Neoden4.

On the Neoden4, the USB cable had it connected to the back of the machine. It has been to change it to one of the USB connectors on the right side of the machine, and the camera already works. I do not know the reason for this problem, but it works for me that it was important.









Another problem I have had is with the chip feeder by vibrator. It seems that they have changed the design of this piece, and I have not been able to place the 5 tubes for SOIC chips of 14/16 pins. Finally, they have sent me a piece of the old design that they still had in stock, I hope it will help me and I can finally use the 5 tubes of SOIC chips that I need.










At this moment, my only question is how the nozzles are placed on the head. Are they going to pressure, I have to dismantle something, do I need a tool ...?

I want put these nozzles:

CN750 --> for TQFP100 / TQFP144 and some SMD power inductors for switched supply with XL4015/XL4016
CN220 --> for SOIC chips (74LS123, CD4050), LD1117, SK86 diode, XL4015, SD card socket, etc...
CN100 or CN140 --> for 1206, some small aluminun capacitors, BAT60 diode...
Custom nozzle --> I have four custom nozzles (CN400/750), these are shorter (-3 or 4mm), I want to try it with high aluminum capacitors, from 8 to 10 mm in height.





« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 06:55:16 pm by luiHS »
 

Offline charliex

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 336
  • Country: 00
  • Car Hacker
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1347 on: June 26, 2018, 04:31:22 am »
they just push in/pull out and click in , no tools needed.

 
The following users thanked this post: luiHS

Offline genekz

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: br
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1348 on: July 02, 2018, 11:08:54 am »
I don't use the size correct option.  It seemed related to vision checking, but I found it just dumps components unnecessarily.

I also do not use this option because it is not described anywhere.

Quote
I've place a lot of 0402.  You really need to set the pickup height with care, otherwise you'll just bounce them around.  I use different height offsets, as the pickups aren't precise enough across the entire machine.

The pickup heigt has nothing to do with the xy coordinate System. I have placed graph paper on the workbench and did some measurements with the camera. In the X axis I have an accumulating error of >= 0.2mm per 100mm. In the Y axis round about 0.15mm/100mm.

We're facing the same problem as LittlePCB.
X and Y axis have an accumulating error.
Is this error linear? creating a script, will it work?
We need to mount most 0402 and fine pitch=0.5 (but 0201 and BGA too), with these error is impossible to mount it.

Thanks!
 

Offline rickvast

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: us
Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1349 on: July 19, 2018, 05:21:00 pm »
So we recently had a power supply go bad and it is suspected we had a bad feeder. Does anyone know how the feeders electrically work. We would like to build a tester to test each feeder before we connect it back into the system. We know the 2 outer pins are for power, but what do the 2 inner pins do and how to electrically interface to them. Thanks in advance.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf