Neoden 4 pick and place

[harfaspaul]

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking around here for a while, and this forum thread has helped make the decision tu purchase a N4. Thanks a lot for everyone who provided info here!
We got the machine in early August, with only ~12 feeders initially. Shipping was via DHL, all wend smooth and fast and it was delivered in perfect state.
We didn`t get the stand from Neoden, but instead rolled our own, made out of square steel pipe. Nice & rigid. At around 90% speed setting it rattles a bit, but nothing disturbing. 
After the "standard" experience everyone around here reports, including switching to Chinese, fiddling around with the not-so-friendly software, frustration with setting up panels/fiducials, settings for feed/peel strength etc., I was pretty happy with the results, given the price for the machine.
I have 2 notable incidents to report:

• After ~2 months in, the stepper for nozzle #3 rotation was not functioning properly. With some patience and spare time I managed to take it off the machine, take it apart, and it was just one wire of a winding not properly soldered to the small PCB with the connector going outside. Neoden sent 2 replacements for free afterwards, with the next shipment (see next bullet). Kudos to them!
• A little while after the above incident, we went ahead and ordered a full set feeders to fill the machine. To my surprise (#1), customs declared value / invoice the customs had was for a much lower amount, 10% of the total. Was sorted in the end after 3-4 email exchanges. Surprise #2 was the bonus: we received brand-new peel-boxes and used feeders, with obvious usage/scratch/rust marks... Despite anything I said, Neoden sustained their point of view, that the feeders are "new" and those marks are "normal from assembly/testing". In short, the conclusion suggested by them: "the feeders work, what's the big deal?" 

Other issues:

• Broken white plastic bit in a feeder. Doesn't really bother us yet.
• Vibratory feeders are a F'ING PAIN to use due to the badly designed plastic part on the machine. I'm thinking of designing and 3D-printing my own part to replace the one on the machine. Anyone else who went this way?
• Any questions about a software update hit a brick wall. Would love to hear if anyone received a software update.

We've run ~600 boards in the meantime, with decent results, and rarely requiring a manual nudge on some components. With the exception of the issues above and keeping in mind the price tag, I'd say I`m pretty satisfied with the equipment.

All the best!

[rx8pilot]

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking around here for a while, and this forum thread has helped make the decision tu purchase a N4. Thanks a lot for everyone who provided info here!

Thank you for the report. I am curious if you have calculated the average CPH of the machine while running your programs - including any necessary fiddling with the machine or nudging before reflow.

[harfaspaul]

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking around here for a while, and this forum thread has helped make the decision tu purchase a N4. Thanks a lot for everyone who provided info here!

Thank you for the report. I am curious if you have calculated the average CPH of the machine while running your programs - including any necessary fiddling with the machine or nudging before reflow.

Haven't really measured it, but for some panels with ~800 parts we get around 1800cph with 3 nozzles, 50-60% speed, all components placed with vision, feeder positions not optimised (e.g.machine would travel to both feeder banks to pick up 3 parts in the same cycle), and including some time to adjust/fix stuff (e.g.vibra feeder fails/spills) at each panel. Not so great cph but meh... good enough for now.

Regards!

[technotronix]

I think this is cost effective and even the features are working good. Even it is easily available from the nearest distributor.

[richardlawson1489]

Now it's time to use Neoden 5.

[Eclipze]

Setting up with fidicuals drives me nuts.  I have to offset all the coordinates from placement data so they are positive to get their positions to work, otherwise I go around in circles.  I'd love a few refinements in the software.  Such as being able to test placement height on a component.  I have the feeling it would be better to change my entire component footprint library so the coordinate center is in the center of the part.  Some boards where components are at odd angles are a pain to adjust, as I have to edit the pick and place data based on manually picking coordinates from the PCB.  Some components, like a QFN32, it just won't place accuracy in position or rotation - have to bump the majority, which results in bridges/re-work.  Tiny packages like a SOD323 create a lot of re-work, as they get bounced in the tape and end up on their side or upside down.  I care more for accuracy than speed, so individually vision align on most non-jelly bean parts or those they don't place well.

Boards with at least 0603 or greater and non-fine pitch parts it is quite good.  It does the job and great to have for small quantity and prototyping.  Fine pitch and 0402 boards are the most difficult boards.  I tried to use it for a big job (fine pitch, 0402), using every feeder, doubled sided, near 2500 components per panel side.  Spent all the time to setup (including a lot tweaking) and ran 8 panels... then unloaded all the reels and sent those out for external PCBA.  It just took too much of my time to baby sit for that job, fix panels pre and post reflow.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I have the feeling it would be better to change my entire component footprint library so the coordinate center is in the center of the part.

Why would the co-ordinate centre ever NOT be at the centre ? Or was it just a bad library?

[Eclipze]

Never considered there to be a need to have the footprints designed with origin in the center.  Any component that is symmetrical I create with the origin at the center as a matter of habit/preference, as I've never liked footprints having pin 1 as the origin.  Non-symmetrical components like a DPAK or SON5x6 I tend to use an origin that is convenient given the manufacturers drawing data.  Suspect I've missed something obvious all this time 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Never considered there to be a need to have the footprints designed with origin in the center.  Any component that is symmetrical I create with the origin at the center as a matter of habit/preference, as I've never liked footprints having pin 1 as the origin.  Non-symmetrical components like a DPAK or SON5x6 I tend to use an origin that is convenient given the manufacturers drawing data.  Suspect I've missed something obvious all this time 

Apart from pick/place issues, you generally want a part to rotate around its centre when you're juggling stuff around during the initial stages of placement in the design

[ar__systems]

I designed my export script to calculate geometrical center of the component, and output that data, rather than the random origin used in library. You don't need to mess with it...

[kimatsystems]

Hello

I have been looking for an automatic pick and place machines (TVM920, Neoden4, M10V...) and because of my budget, existing documentation (videos, reviews, comments...) I think I will go finally for Neoden.
But Finally when I was almost decided, I read about the Neoden5 which will have a new tape feeder, but loosing 10 tape feeder positions because of that; from 48 to 38 positions max.

http://pickandplace-neoden.en.made-in-china.com/product/ReAxBJYkVNGL/China-Neoden-5-Visual-Chip-Mounter.html

Does anyone have any additional information about the new upgrade model and what is the difference respect to the existing Neoden4?

I am going to spend quite a lot money on it and if a new revision will be released in few months I prefer wait for it.

Thank you so much to all of your replies :-)

[Eclipze]

I had expected the Mid X, Mid Y, Ref X, Ref Y, Pad X, Pad Y in the placement data would cover the mid point.

[DigitalDeath]

We're thinking about buying one and have some questions:

1) Is the Neoden 5 available already if not should we wait?

2) Is the height limitation still 5mm on the new one or has it been fixed in the old one or what's the latest on the height limitation? Is there a trick to circumvent it?

3) As anyone used it consistently to place 0201 and QFN?

4) Most of our designs are 0402 with only a few 0201 for TVS devices and some QFN-64, TSSOP-14 and LFCSP-56. Would it work for those?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you guys can provide,

John.

[Spikee]

We're thinking about buying one and have some questions:

1) Is the Neoden 5 available already if not should we wait?

2) Is the height limitation still 5mm on the new one or has it been fixed in the old one or what's the latest on the height limitation? Is there a trick to circumvent it?

3) As anyone used it consistently to place 0201 and QFN?

4) Most of our designs are 0402 with only a few 0201 for TVS devices and some QFN-64, TSSOP-14 and LFCSP-56. Would it work for those?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you guys can provide,

John.

As someone who outsources a good amount of SMT assembly just don't go lower than 0402 / QFN type packages.
It is just asking for trouble. BGA, 0201 and those kind of things the tolerances are much lower thus the machines and
the general quality you need to achieve this whit a somewhat acceptable yield you need a top of the line assembler / machine.

All these hobby kind of machines I would not go smaller than 0402 and QFN period (and 0402 yield might just be 80% with these kind of things).

[mikeselectricstuff]

The problem with 0201 is as much feeders as anything else. From what I hear the N4's feeders aren't too great, so 0201 is probably a bit unrealistic

[TheSteve]

I wouldn't try 0201 with the N4 I use. I haven't really looked into the N5 yet as we won't be upgrading. Contact Neoden and ask for the status, they are very responsive.

[DigitalDeath]

Thank you for the info. I'm not that worried about the 0201 because we only use 4 in a 600 component board.  We should probably switch them to 0402 anyway.  What about the 5mm height limit has that changed ? BTW the use is for prototyping not production.
Also would you guys recommend a different machine? I'm not that familiar with the latest ad greatest in this area.

[DigitalDeath]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I contacted NeoDen and asked them about the 5mm height limitation and they explained that if the head's placing route is planned correctly you can place components quite a bit taller without knocking down previously placed components. They sent me this link to a video of the NeoDen 4 placing pretty tall electrolytic capacitor. This took care of my concerns.In case anyone else had the same concerns as me.

[Eclipze]

Keep in mind, tall components can be difficult to accommodate with the feeders.  Hence they have placed them from a generic tray. 

I have had problems with some components that fit in the the feeders.  I've had to remove the metal leaf spring in a few, otherwise with components ~2.5mm and higher it lifts the tape and the toothed wheel starts skipping on tape feeding.

[DigitalDeath]

...  I've had to remove the metal leaf spring in a few, otherwise with components ~2.5mm and higher it lifts the tape and the toothed wheel starts skipping on tape feeding.

Thanks for the info. I didn't understand this last part. Keep in mind I don't have one or access to one so if you're referring to something only an owner would know I would not understand you. Do you happen to have a picture of what you're referring to?

[Eclipze]

I don't have photos of it.  There is a thin stainless sheet that sits under the tape for 12mm feeders, which is spring loaded to hold the tape high in the slot.  8mm feeders don't have it (can't remember if 16/24mm have them).  If the components are tall, it exerts more pressure and can push the tape a bit high, such that the wheel feeding the tape skips.  I've only had to do this for a couple of the 12mm tapes.  Just took the feeders out, undid a little screw and remove that spring leaf. 

[Gary.M]

Keep in mind, tall components can be difficult to accommodate with the feeders.  Hence they have placed them from a generic tray. 

I have had problems with some components that fit in the the feeders.  I've had to remove the metal leaf spring in a few, otherwise with components ~2.5mm and higher it lifts the tape and the toothed wheel starts skipping on tape feeding.

That machine likes those capacitors eh? MMmmmm   Num Num..... Mmmmm   Num Num.

[DigitalDeath]

OK thanks for the explanation I understand now.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I contacted NeoDen and asked them about the 5mm height limitation and they explained that if the head's placing route is planned correctly .

But how well does their software actually support doing this ? If implemented well it could be useable but my suspicion is it's probably a fiddly PITA to do in .

[Eclipze]

I'd concur.  I wouldn't bother loading parts like this with the Neoden4 unless you were building a significant number that made it worth it such trouble.  In the case of these caps... seems a waste of time.  You'd have to unload them off the tape and place them neatly in the pick up tray.  Might as well just place them straight on the board   

Placing jelly bean parts and chips is where all the time is saved.  When I build a short run and have some ICs and bigger parts on cut tape (SIM sockets, inductors, crystals, push buttons etc...), I put a length of double side tape on a flat tray... peel off the cover tape and then pick directly off the indexed tape like the parts were in a tray.  Done this with quite a few cut tape strips before.  Avoids having to change out feeders to fit larger ones and also great when you have all the feeders loaded with other parts you want to keep loaded.  Little cumbersome to reset the index between panels, but for a short run, it's easy.  For prototypes, I use the vibration tray landing for a few of the unique parts - it's nice and close and easy to keep loading while the machine is running.  Great for some of the IC's where you just want the vision place them neatly, or you only have loose parts.