Neoden 4 pick and place

[digger123]

thanks for reply mikeselectricstuff

i found NeoDen4 over internet and looks like will do what i'm plan to do, there is severe reasons for my choice

1. dont really have time to DIY any thing - equipment need to be off shelf ( reasonable price of course )
2. in case i can't adopt it to my project can always use for developing boards
3. need to be robust as need to place 1000 -2000 labels per week ( might be more in near future )
4. yes i need conveyer as boards will be auto loaded to P&P and auto unloaded to hopper

You right N4 might be overkill for placing labels but that best what i can thing now ( in budged upto $10k)

Q1. is openPNP work with N4? - or need special driver ?
Q2. is there other P&P which can be controlled from external PC on market within my budget you can recommend ?
Q3. can you help with link to TVM820 documentation - cant find anything really related
Q4. there is any copy of N4 software i can download and check how i can interact with it ?

thx
 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Q1. is openPNP work with N4? - or need special driver ?
Q2. is there other P&P which can be controlled from external PC on market within my budget you can recommend ?
Q3. can you help with link to TVM820 documentation - cant find anything really related
Q4. there is any copy of N4 software i can download and check how i can interact with it ?

thx

N4 is not documented and AFAIK nobody is actively working on getting openPnP running on it, though a few are interested so may happen at some point.
There are some N4 users here who may be able to help you with software but it may only run on the N4's embedded PC - see earlier in this thread

For what you want maybe you could modify a feeder to extract a "feed" signal to advance your labels.

TVM802 docs
https://github.com/TVM802/TMV802-Protocol

[digger123]

Thats what i though 

is NeoDen embedded PC equipped with Network card ? or any extension slot ?
do software running on that machine is stored on HDD / SD-card / USB / - or embedded in sort of BIOS
it is standard XP machine ?

I can write quickly local application which will emulate mouse clicks and i can control that via ethernet - that's only solution i can think of to control that remotely, think most of <$10k machines will be same ( or might be im wrong )

separate problem if feeder can feed my labels ( 12mm ribbon contain 6.3 x 6.3mm labels )


Thx for sharing info

[mistek]

@TheSteve Do you still use Neoden4 machine?

Any comments?

[Smallsmt]

Thats what i though 

is NeoDen embedded PC equipped with Network card ? or any extension slot ?
do software running on that machine is stored on HDD / SD-card / USB / - or embedded in sort of BIOS
it is standard XP machine ?

I can write quickly local application which will emulate mouse clicks and i can control that via ethernet - that's only solution i can think of to control that remotely, think most of <$10k machines will be same ( or might be im wrong )

separate problem if feeder can feed my labels ( 12mm ribbon contain 6.3 x 6.3mm labels )


Thx for sharing info

You can use USB network card.
How about a VNC  remote control?
http://www.tightvnc.com/

[TheSteve]

@TheSteve Do you still use Neoden4 machine?

Any comments?

We still have the Neoden4. It has no external network port but the motherboard inside the unit does - so if you wanted to enable it you likely could. It uses a small flash based drive. I believe there is more detail earlier in this thread on the hardware inside.

[mistek]

@TheSteve Are you still satisfied your machine?

[Binderedondat]

Good day all!
I too just opened my NEODEN4 and am for the most part...pleased.
Got the whole feederbox ID sorted out...making sure to have at least one "panel" in the list.

I find that when you set up the feeders correctly in your program, if you ensure to detail the footprint, parts place quite nicely...

**however**

If the part is NOT in the footprint library, you can add it...tried that, rejects the parts every time.

Any insights?

[pverras]

Hi all,

I own a Neoden 4.

I'm having a few positioning issues with placement of ICs (see attached images)

I'm using the rail system, component positions from CAD, tray loading. The problem exists with all ICs but it's far worse when rotation is required.

Any suggestions from users of the machine?

Also can someone that has the latest firmware email it to me? (or upload here?)

I have version 4.1.0 B4 which i gather from this thread is pretty old (although only a few month since i purchased the machine)

Also has anyone else in Europe trouble contacting printec (the distributor) for assistance?

Thank you very much,

Panagiotis

[pverras]

Binderedondat

Try to unclick the size correct option, it doesn't seem to work well.

[tony-tid]

Hello everybody!

I'm new here and I also have NeoDen4 aaaand of course I have a problem.
So... I hope you can help me.

Q1: How to calibrate origin/coordinates? - I export PNP file from Altium Designer 2015 and import it in Neoden4. The problem with origin is that for ex: My component is with coordinats X: 111.4 Y: 192.5, but when I start the mounting process the machine coordinats of X: 111.4 Y: 192.5 is somewhere across the PCB. 

Is there anyway to correct it, cuz now I make coordinats manual via camera?  (I've watch the NeoDen4 tutorials but there is nothing about my problem)

[pverras]

Hello everybody!

I'm new here and I also have NeoDen4 aaaand of course I have a problem.
So... I hope you can help me.

Q1: How to calibrate origin/coordinates? - I export PNP file from Altium Designer 2015 and import it in Neoden4. The problem with origin is that for ex: My component is with coordinats X: 111.4 Y: 192.5, but when I start the mounting process the machine coordinats of X: 111.4 Y: 192.5 is somewhere across the PCB. 

Is there anyway to correct it, cuz now I make coordinats manual via camera?  (I've watch the NeoDen4 tutorials but there is nothing about my problem)

Hi Tony,

Welcome to the world of Chinese software

First of all your origin from the CAD software needs to be on the bottom left side of your board, I usually set as origin the bottom left corner of the board. So make sure when you export your data, you know where the origin is and that it's in metric! not inches.

Now you'll need to add manually a point on your board that is going to be your "fake" component 1. This can be a hole or a fiducial, something you can clearly see in the camera of neoden. The software uses the 1st component on the list as a reference.
So for example say that your fiducial has coordinates 10.00, 10.00. You need to add a component on your csv on the top before the other components with these coordinates. you'll make this a skip component as it's not real.

When you start your setup with the Neoden software you need to feed the board in (if you have rails) and then locate with the camera the most bottom left component, if you've done what i mentioned above that would be your fiducial at 10.00, 10.00 (for example). This will correlate the machines coordinates with the PCB coordinates. Then of course you need to click on the panelize button and then add your PCB marks with the coordinates from you CAD software, then import the file.Tip (don't add more than two pcb marks as the software has trouble calculating the angle of the board)


This is the process i follow, i'm actually setting up board right now so if you need further help give me a shout.

Cheers,

Panagiotis

[tony-tid]

Hi Tony,

Welcome to the world of Chinese software

First of all your origin from the CAD software needs to be on the bottom left side of your board, I usually set as origin the bottom left corner of the board. So make sure when you export your data, you know where the origin is and that it's in metric! not inches.

Now you'll need to add manually a point on your board that is going to be your "fake" component 1. This can be a hole or a fiducial, something you can clearly see in the camera of neoden. The software uses the 1st component on the list as a reference.
So for example say that your fiducial has coordinates 10.00, 10.00. You need to add a component on your csv on the top before the other components with these coordinates. you'll make this a skip component as it's not real.

When you start your setup with the Neoden software you need to feed the board in (if you have rails) and then locate with the camera the most bottom left component, if you've done what i mentioned above that would be your fiducial at 10.00, 10.00 (for example). This will correlate the machines coordinates with the PCB coordinates. Then of course you need to click on the panelize button and then add your PCB marks with the coordinates from you CAD software, then import the file.Tip (don't add more than two pcb marks as the software has trouble calculating the angle of the board)


This is the process i follow, i'm actually setting up board right now so if you need further help give me a shout.

Cheers,

Panagiotis

Hi Panagiotis, thank you for fast response.

This is the boards I put. I make manual PNP file for them with help of the tutorials, but I cant everytime for every new board to make manual PNP file.



Here is where I put my origin, is that a problem? 



The other thing in my mind is: Is there a problem if the board is rotated otherwise. I mean for ex: My origin from CAD is left bottom, but I placed the board rotated so my origin now is top left/right/etc.?

When I put my board in rails and put it forward, as I saw in the tutorials, the machine ask for the edge of the board. (is this that Fake point/component?)
So if I understand you right and this is the fake point/component you're talking about I must add a component with this edge coordinates.

Then for panelized list I need to put rows (1) and columns (2), and it "says" to me wich coordinates I must align to creat it. In my case there are left bottom and right top so I align it.
Make the PCB mark points (I make 2 points). And this correlate the machines coordinates with the PCB coordinates, BUT when I import the CAD file the cordinates in *.csv for all elements are different. (should I ignore them? ) 

[Alx]

Hello
You have to place the origin point outside and put it down Left
Take note of this picture:

[tony-tid]

Thank you all.

The problem was with coordination of mark points. And still... Now I choose coordinates of that point, but when try to mount I must coordinate the camera to the point (not automatically).

I know it must be a pad but this desing dont have so I use this one.

[derethor]

yep, the 4.1.2 R3

it worked well

Thank you!
Have you solved the problem with the TQFP100?

I mitigated somehow the problem, but still, i am not confident

Now, i dont rotate the part. I place the chip on the tray, using the correct rotation. I think that when the head rotates the part, maybe it get missaligned  a bit, but enough to be noticeable, as the chip is big

place height is very important. I am playing with this parameter, but I dont know well if i am doing things right.

Anyone here had success with BGA/TQFP100 components?

[Binderedondat]

I don't have it selected, still rejects the part.  I use the dimensions that are in the datasheet for the part, but it doesn't seem to like it.  I tried changing width for length and vice versa, still no joy.  Am I missing something?

[pverras]

I mitigated somehow the problem, but still, i am not confident

Now, i dont rotate the part. I place the chip on the tray, using the correct rotation. I think that when the head rotates the part, maybe it get missaligned  a bit, but enough to be noticeable, as the chip is big

place height is very important. I am playing with this parameter, but I dont know well if i am doing things right.

Anyone here had success with BGA/TQFP100 components?

Hi derethor

I have the same issues with TQPF components, I've been in contact with Neoden and they have been helpful.

These were their suggestions
1. Don't rotate the part (which you're doing already)
2. Use local (to the component) fiducials,
3. Slow down the speed and add pick and place delay of at least 100ms
4. Use the rubber inserts for the heads this will improve stability. But you have to adjust your place height a little bit.

Now what I've found base on my own experience.
The coordinates coming from the CAD export you'd expect them to be 100% correct, and probably are. However the way the machine recognizes the part might be slightly different. So some manual adjustment of the coordinated might be necessary.
Using local ficucials does make a difference however it's not very practical.
Slowing down the machine does help and the delays are essential.
Now this is very important and no one will tell you about it. When you're doing the calibration of the heads, it's very likely that there is a difference between the simple single photograph or the rotate lens aggregate. When your parts are going to be rotated then you absolutely need to use the rotate lens function during calibration. if however your component is not rotated then the center point is better to be of a single photo and not the center of rotation... it's a headache but you can try it.
Once you get it right (trying with double sided tape) repeatability is very good.

I've managed to place a TQFP100 device several times on the same board quite accurately but it took me about 20 tries to get it right

Having the latest software (as reluctant as they are to give it to you) is very important. There are some bugs with the component geometry recognition on the old versions. It has improved vastly on the new one.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Panagiotis

[pverras]

I don't have it selected, still rejects the part.  I use the dimensions that are in the datasheet for the part, but it doesn't seem to like it.  I tried changing width for length and vice versa, still no joy.  Am I missing something?

Binderedondat

can you explain what do you mean it rejects the part?

if you have the size correct unchecked then it doesn't check the size and it can't reject it. Try doing a pick test and see first if the component is picked up correctly.

can you send a screenshot of the feeder configuration as well as the message when it rejects the part.

the footprint library that you are talking about is useless.

also i tried this the other day (with the size correct checked) just to try it out. Remember that the size you need to insert is the TOTAL including the pins, not the body size!

Cheers,

Panagiotis

[rom67]

Having the latest software (as reluctant as they are to give it to you) is very important. There are some bugs with the component geometry recognition on the old versions. It has improved vastly on the new one.

Thank you very much for such a detailed description.
Could you share the last firmware (unfortunately the Chines developer is not answering on my letters for the last month).

[pverras]

Could you share the last firmware (unfortunately the Chines developer is not answering on my letters for the last month).

Hi there, you'll find it attached. Please use at your own risk! As Neoden is insisting it might not work with your machine well. What I asked them for was to send me a version of the original that was running on my machine as well, which they did, just in case I need to revert to it. It did however work well with mine.

Again Use at your own risk! Also in the documentation it notes that in some cases the language reverts to Chinese, and you need a password to revert it to English, for that you need to contact them as they will require a machine code to generate the key to send you!

Also attaching some other documents that were provided to me by the Chinese and EU support.

Bryan at support@neodentech.com was extremely helpful. Reply time is usually around and after midnight UTC.

[rom67]

Thank you very much for information and firmware!!

[zwheat]

Hello All!

I recently recieved a Neoden 4 at my place of business, and I got it put together and plugged into the computer. First start up, it goes through the boot up, I see the Neo Den Tech logo, then i get a black screen and the screen goes into power save mode. At that point, it doesnt respond to any commands from a keyboard or mouse.

Any idea what Im missing?

Thank You

[rom67]

I see the Neo Den Tech logo, then i get a black screen and the screen goes into power save mode. At that point, it doesnt respond to any commands from a keyboard or mouse.
Any idea what Im missing?
Thank You

After Logo you should get the screen with NeoDen software.
It seems that something wrong with the OS (WinXP) or with the hardware.
Any case contact with your local distributor.

[Alx]

Hello All!

I recently recieved a Neoden 4 at my place of business, and I got it put together and plugged into the computer. First start up, it goes through the boot up, I see the Neo Den Tech logo, then i get a black screen and the screen goes into power save mode. At that point, it doesnt respond to any commands from a keyboard or mouse.

Any idea what Im missing?

Thank You

Hi,
your problem has been resolved....??