New PCBCART prototyping service

[fredboivin]

Hi!

I just found out that Dave's recommended PCBCART website has been overhauled (that was much needed!) and they've added a new prototyping service!

http://www.pcbcart.com/cart.php?page=capability___prototype_pcb

The price seems VERY reasonnable (43$ for 5 4x3 2-layers boards) and it's only 5 days lead time. That can be a very attractive alternative to OSHPark! The only thing is that you have to order 5pcs minimum.

What do you think? Yay or Nay?

[David_AVD]

They must have rolled out the new web site over the CNY break.

It will be interesting to try the pricing on a mixed panel.

[fredboivin]

Just checked quickly:

18in x 18in (max size), 2 layers, panel with 7 different designs : 182.59$/panel. That works out to 50cents/sq in, a little less than 3$ for the 5 boards the minimum order requires! Shipping doesn't seems to be included though, but they say they have discounted rates.

Capabilities are also quite respectable at 4/4 and 6mil holes.

[mikeselectricstuff]

free stainless stencil as well!

[fredboivin]

Stainless steel!? Now we're talking.

My job just ordered a prototype at a contract manufacturer: 60$/pcs for a 4 layer 4inx3in and 250$/side for stainless stencil!
It could've cost them 25$/pcs + shipping with PCBCART. What a ripoff... But hey, they're close and trusted.

[mikeselectricstuff]

A problem with all the subcontractors I've ever dealt with is they need a full-size, sometimes framed, stencil, which can be most of the 1-off cost of a job

[EEVblog]

free stainless stencil as well!

That's pretty sweet.
The website was due for an overhaul, and their prices had slowing increased and increased over the last 5 years or so.
Will have to check them out again.

[EEVblog]

What a ripoff... But hey, they're close and trusted.

That should not be undervalued sometimes.

[fredboivin]

That should not be undervalued sometimes.

I know, I know. I can appreciate the fact of just having to send the design files and having them manage the PCB order, the kitting and assembling and having my built prototypes 2 weeks later on my desk.

It just baffles me that nobody on our side or their thinks that spending 500$ on a stencil thats only going to get used once, maybe isn't worth it... I mean, we could easily save money by buying them a smaller frameless stencil printer and tell them to use the free stencil from the PCB manufacturer!

[EEVblog]

0.4mm boards too 
I think they only had 0.5mm before.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It just baffles me that nobody on our side or their thinks that spending 500$ on a stencil thats only going to get used once, maybe isn't worth it... I mean, we could easily save money by buying them a smaller frameless stencil printer and tell them to use the free stencil from the PCB manufacturer!

The problem is that it's rarely in the interest of the subcontractor to go out of their way to reduce this sort of cost, as it's an industry norm, and just something they pass on to the customer.
A problem with having a second smaller printer is it's another thing to clean and put paste in, and train operators with etc. etc.

Mydata's paste-jet machine is an interesting alternative, however I suspect it's expensive enough that the subbys that have one would want to cover its cost with a charge not much less than a stencil.  Anyone have any experience of this?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Shipping cost may be a killer for small orders, though stencil may compensate.
Didn't see an option to add a second stencil for double-sided, though you can specify stencil size - at larger sizes it adds cost.
Also the MOQ of 5 may make it less attractive for larger boards if you only need 1 or 2

[codeboy2k]

My job just ordered a prototype at a contract manufacturer: 60$/pcs for a 4 layer 4inx3in and 250$/side for stainless stencil!
It could've cost them 25$/pcs + shipping with PCBCART. What a ripoff... But hey, they're close and trusted.

I'm in Vancouver. Who did you use that's nearby and trusted?  I always like to know who's available in the country, in case I need it too.

Thanks.

[fredboivin]

I'm in Vancouver. Who did you use that's nearby and trusted?

Our fab house is near Boston, because that's where the main office is. Our office is in Montreal and I know a couple reputable contract manufacturer in the area. I don't know how close you are looking for?

Shipping cost may be a killer for small orders (...). Also the MOQ of 5 may make it less attractive for larger boards if you only need 1 or 2.

Pitty they don't include a quick shipping estimator for that. Do you know a service where you can order a board at 1$/sq in + shipping in qty of 1 or 2?

The problem is that it's rarely in the interest of the subcontractor to go out of their way to reduce this sort of cost.

Yeah, as anybody... We used to build our prototypes in-house, but higher management though it would save cost to outsource it. Funny thing is, we still have all the equipment we need (printer, oven, manual pick and place, shear, etc) and the office next to ours is a contract manufacturer! But they still insist that we ship all of that in the US, costing 100s of dollars in duty taxes every time.

[codeboy2k]

I'm in Vancouver. Who did you use that's nearby and trusted?

Our fab house is near Boston, because that's where the main office is. Our office is in Montreal and I know a couple reputable contract manufacturer in the area. I don't know how close you are looking for?

There's plenty in Surrey, BC.. I'm just not sure which ones are reputable. So please PM me the names of the ones you know in Montreal, thanks!

I'll get a chance to use one from Surrey soon enough

[Falcon69]

I think they are way overpriced.

My next project consists of a board that is A4 size (210mmx297mm, is panelized with a bunch of other boards).  500pcs from Elecrow is $5016. For same boards from PCBCart, it is $41,000.  I think I'll stick with Elecrow or someone else.

[fredboivin]

500pcs from Elecrow is $5016. For same boards from PCBCart, it is $41,000.

I'm not a rep for PCBCart or anything, and I was curious of the price difference, so I went and checked.

Elecrow : 500pcs, 2-layers, ENIG, >750cm2, 5 designs................................................................5987$
PCBCart : 500pcs, 2-layer, ENIG, A4 size panel with 5 designs, silkscreen on 2 sides, 1oz......................4478$

I have no idea how you came up with 41k$ for PCBCart...

On the small prototypes order, however, Elecrow is a clear win:

Elecrow : 5pcs, 4-layers, HASL, 10x16cm................................................................95$
PCBCart : 5pcs, 4-layer, HASL, 10x16cm, silkscreen on 2 sides, 1oz..............................218$

and PCBCart is still double Elecrow for a 2-layer board.

Well, seems I got excited for nothing...

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've found that there are some options at PCBCart that produce huge spikes in the price, but these tend to be problems with their quoting system rather than actual production cost. number of slots comes to mind.
The flip side is that on occasion they increase cost after order is placed - had this happen with a board with a large number of test nodes.
 

[wreeve]

or gold flash; if you order gold over Ni and have a large non-photo resist area they get upset and charge you more!