Author Topic: Newest Pace ADS200 station (tempting durability, and just over $200)  (Read 34374 times)

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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #550 on: July 19, 2018, 08:40:08 am »
What Dave says is true, whenever I swap tips in my SL2020 I often have to adjust rotation a bit further left or right.
 

Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #551 on: July 19, 2018, 08:41:01 am »
The one with the ISB stand is "In stock soon. Order now to get in line. First come first served."

Alex,

I just contacted the owner and he will take care of it. Again, I suspect this more of a PACE issue as the ADS200 with ISB Tool Stands were the last items to be cleared for shipment in June. Expect a call or contact from a Accessotronik Representative named Fred Gravel tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience (darn, I hate having to say this so much!)

Aaron
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #552 on: July 19, 2018, 10:28:03 am »
As per EEVBlog's statement of using the lowest temp possible temp POV, I get where he's coming from. Unfortunately however, it's more important to have the temp set where the joint is made properly in 1 -2 seconds without damaging either the component or board IME (minimal dwell time).

I'm not suggesting that You turn down the temp and sacrifice the quality of the joint, I thought that was obvious? (maybe not it seems)

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #553 on: July 19, 2018, 10:32:56 am »
Dave's stated premise was that you should solder at the lowest temperature possible. This is not exactly correct. You should solder at a temperature no higher than you can safely and consistently control the process.

I did not imply that you should turn down the temperature such that it sacrifices soldering quality, I thought that was obvious?
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #554 on: July 19, 2018, 10:33:19 am »
If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #555 on: July 19, 2018, 10:39:46 am »
I would say yes...
 

Offline VK4GHZ

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #556 on: July 19, 2018, 10:48:12 am »
Why has Dave's video been taken down?

No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #557 on: July 19, 2018, 10:50:45 am »
I got 5 mins in before it was yanked.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #558 on: July 19, 2018, 10:59:31 am »
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
 

Offline helius

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #559 on: July 19, 2018, 12:02:20 pm »
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?
As heat transfers from the tip to the work, the tip cools, and the sensor then detects the cooling, and the MCU then sends more power to the heater.
But, if there is no solder bridge because the temperature of the work is below reflow, heat can't move out of the tip, so the sensor stays hot, and power doesn't increase. It's the same reason that you can't solder with a dry tip and need to touch the solder to the tip before feeding it onto a pad.
The tip geometry, composition, and plating determine the thermal resistance, RT in °C/W: the temperature difference required per watt of heat transfer. On a workpiece with a heavy ground, more heat transfer is needed to keep the solder molten, so the tip must be hotter.
One of Pace's comments indicates that their tips are higher RT compared to JBC, because they have heavier plating.
In other words, it's a false belief that you can keep a low tip temperature on any kind of work, just because you have the ability to supply high power. The RT means that the minimum usable tip temperature is always higher for heavier workpieces.
 
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #560 on: July 19, 2018, 12:13:15 pm »
From the video, it seems to me the PACE control loop is taking too long to update power as an ƒ(temp), in the scope you can see the JBC feeding more power every few (mains) cycles, in the PACE it's more like only a couple times/second or so instead. That may be too slow if the rate at which the ground plane cools the tip is faster than that.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 12:15:08 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #561 on: July 19, 2018, 12:45:24 pm »
I realize that soldering at such a low temperature isn't the norm. However, I'd think you wouldn't have to crank it up so much higher than the JBC?  It certainly has enough power to deliver. If the tip remains under load, why doesn't it continue to deliver power until it's up to temp?

Because the thicker iron plating has higher thermal resistance and therefore the temperature of the solder on the ground plane is much lower, so the tip is effectively "dropping" that temperature. Just like the old style contact tips have a higher thermal resistance again. It's the basic resistor-thermal analogy. I prefer the lowest thermal resistance in the tip I can get, so that the displayed temperature is at least closer to the actual joint temperature. Tip life be damned. But as always, YMMV.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 01:10:10 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #562 on: July 19, 2018, 12:49:02 pm »
Why has Dave's video been taken down?
No more freebies from Pace if it wasn't?

No, I don't give a toss about freebies.
Several commenters and Pace were right, it wasn't clear why I was soldering that ground plane at 270C. I didn't want people thinking you should be doing that, it's confusing. As was my statement about soldering "at the lowest temperature possible", I did not articulate it well enough, well, at all really.
I also added some stuff about the iron plating differences, showed the Hakko 888 and added the JBC temp measurement.
I have reshot that bit and will upload a new version.
I think Pace's claim about "unsurpassed thermal performance" is bullshit, and I say so in the video. They can argue all they want about tip life plating tradeoff and higher temps all they like, when you make a claim like that it's going to be tested. And there is only one way to test that, at the lowest temperature that shows the differences. I think it's quite disingenuous of Pace to claim that it's "unfair" and that only a higher temp should be used to make it fair. If that's the case, the Hakko 888 performs the same. The Pace doesn't match the thermal performance of the JBC, it can't due to the higher resistance tips, they know that, and they admit that with the iron plating explanation. Yet their marketing says opposite.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 01:11:46 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #563 on: July 19, 2018, 01:13:15 pm »
If the solder isn't melting at the set temperature, then isn't the tip temperature lower when it's under load?

Yes. No matter how good your soldering iron and tip, the actual temperature of the joint always drops due the unavoidable thermal resistance.
Cue the Metcal induction fanboys...
 

Offline helius

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #564 on: July 19, 2018, 01:49:42 pm »
"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".
Just ad lib, you could be talking about setpoint accuracy, setpoint variance, ready time from standby, recovery time, overshoot, or energy efficiency: these are all thermal performance parameters. Different users will weigh these factors differently, according to their preferences and needs.

For both thermal conductivity and total heat delivery, it's very hard to match a Weller D550 with a solid 12ga. copper wire! But such a tool has limited application to modern electronics.
 
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Offline labjr

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #565 on: July 19, 2018, 02:00:08 pm »
Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #566 on: July 19, 2018, 02:21:00 pm »
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story. Great ergonomics handpiece and low oxidating tips will do it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #567 on: July 19, 2018, 04:04:04 pm »
Dave can you add a compare of tip oxidation JBC vs Pace. It is bad tip oxidation on JBC which drives me mad. If Pace is better i will not care about rest of the story.

Problem is that's a really long term experiment. I don't know of way to accelerate it that would realistic?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #568 on: July 19, 2018, 04:06:37 pm »
"Unsurpassed thermal performance" can be interpreted in multiple ways. It isn't just another way of saying "low thermal resistance".

Sure, but few people are going to argue that temperature drop on the the tip (a.k.a tip thermal resistance) isn't one of the main criteria for determining thermal performance.
Indeed, soldering irons are split into two design camps (three if you include induction based tips like Metcal) entirely based on this concept alone.
 

Online Shock

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #569 on: July 19, 2018, 04:32:15 pm »
Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline presjar

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #570 on: July 19, 2018, 08:23:22 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Really looking out for the users on this forum.  :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #571 on: July 19, 2018, 08:36:49 pm »
Heard a knock on the door, look what has arrived.

So they do stack!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #572 on: July 19, 2018, 08:37:41 pm »
Now I'm more curious about an ADS200 vs FX-951 comparison.

Not cheap to get one here in Oz, like $500 or something.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #573 on: July 19, 2018, 08:39:16 pm »
Hi PACE-Worldwide

Nice work letting the Australian distributors get away with a price of $543AUD ex Tax. Only a mark up of 67%!   :palm:
239USD = 325AUD x 1.67 = $543AUD

Hakko have basically the same mark-up here. i.e. the FX-951 is $542 AUD ex GST
 

Online Shock

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Re: Newest Pace ADS200 production station (a JBC killer at $239??)
« Reply #574 on: July 19, 2018, 08:45:28 pm »
Dave your power meter froze it seems while measuring the JBC.
Did you notice any slight temp overshoot while measuring the JBCs recovery on the thermometer?
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 


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