Author Topic: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine  (Read 10065 times)

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Offline ar__systems

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2018, 12:25:24 am »
I notice they are saying "open design, open hardware", but in the design files section there is only a couple of drawing of some non-essential plates or brackets. No BOM, no CAD files. There is practically nothing open there. That's ok by itself, just remove the claim of "open hardware".
 
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Offline svenskelektronik

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 10:23:55 pm »
I think the first thing that people are dying for is a cheap PNP that implement OpenPNP. Open Hardware would do good but its not a deal killer.
 

Offline nisma

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 02:23:43 am »
But, it is slow,   it is unknown what is the max lifting capacity mass for big components using the biggest nozzle with only 1mm inner diameter and the
 From video, where no placement vision is used, the 800cph is without vision.
With uplooking vision is then below 500 cph and with additional downlooking vision is approx 400 cph.
Annother unclear point is 0402 and 0201 support. It is because hw problems or bad hw/sw integration ? maybe only because it need top and bottom vision
and that slow down to 450 cph and that could be problematic. Unfortunatly lightning is not ok for loose feeders, uplightning seems similar, unfortunatly that
is a ko criterium for better vision algorithm.

It would be helpful if there is a clear statement, what is the max bga package and the status to 0402/0201 .
On openPnP with direct driver C axis, FG 456 is the maximum placeable (1 mm pitch, 23x23mm). Higher pitch is not a problem.
The max placeable 0.4mm pitch is 44x44 (17,6x17,6mm) having 0.05mm x/y repeatibility (20 tooth pulley, direct drive).
Uplooking camera must be  25mm height field of view. This allow using only one HD camera
for 0201 imperial up to all placeable size. 0.3mm pitch (bga/wsa) is not placeable with 0.05mm x/y accuracy, 0.3mm pitch connectors are placeable.
This all with juki 508 nozzle, i have no idea how this works with the tiny inner diameter nozzles from openplacer.

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 08:56:13 am »
Not relevant because this machine targets a totally different market.
If you need high speed, high reliability and full component range choose from the hundreds of professional machines with their very high price.

There are lot of hobbieists and small series prototyping firms where this is good enough and extremely cheap. You need four times the speed? Buy four.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 09:04:41 am »
There are lot of hobbieists and small series prototyping firms where this is good enough and extremely cheap. You need four times the speed? Buy four.

That's what I'm thinking. If it can do 0402 with good result, I will buy another one even at full retail price, so totally 40*8mm feeders, should be enough for most of my designs.

And no, I don't need vision on each and every component. I need top camera vision for 0402s, and I only need a few fiducial marks on my PCB. I don't need to calibrate the head at every pick, and I don't need to read fiducials at every place.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 09:32:33 am by blueskull »
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Offline ar__systems

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 09:14:42 am »
I don't see why any hobbyist would need an SMT machine. I mean, they are likely assembling only single copy of their board. The setup and configuring of the machine will take more time than hand assembly.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 09:19:25 am »
I don't see why any hobbyist would need an SMT machine. I mean, they are likely assembling only single copy of their board. The setup and configuring of the machine will take more time than hand assembly.

Try 0402s and DSBGAs. They don't take much time, but they take a lot of swearing.
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Online rx8pilot

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 09:24:29 am »
I agree - the speed is not a factor for the target audience. On my machine - I usually run it at 50% speed or slower because the rest of the process is much slower than the machine itself. Paste, inspection, hand soldering, test, etc, etc....

The rating on my machine is 3600cph if it if perfectly optimized. I never optimize it and run it slow at about 1000cph or so and it is still faster than the pre and post processes in my case.

Reliability is key for me. If it can run for long periods without errors  - I could see it being useful. Sure would be nice if it can do 0402 (or better) all day long.
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Online rx8pilot

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2018, 09:28:23 am »
I don't see why any hobbyist would need an SMT machine. I mean, they are likely assembling only single copy of their board. The setup and configuring of the machine will take more time than hand assembly.

Not sure about pure hobbyists, but the semi-pro and professionals regularly need 4-5 PCB's assembled with a fairly high component count. It could be useful in that role. From experience - it takes a considerable effort to organize the ENTIRE process to make an overall improvement from hand placing. The actual machine placement of  parts is just part of the process. Planning and setup is the bigger part.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2018, 09:28:29 am »
I don't see why any hobbyist would need an SMT machine. I mean, they are likely assembling only single copy of their board. The setup and configuring of the machine will take more time than hand assembly.
A hobbyist has no use for a pick/place. Many people who think they want a P&P don't understand enough about it to know any better.
The niche for low-end P&P lies between a few boards hand-assembled and the point where it's viable to subcontract it and/or they need it really fast. This niche probably exists at a size to be a small business for someone, but likely can't be filled with just one machine as people will all have different requirements.
And just forget any idea of doing 0201's Ain't gonna happen on a cheap machine. Anyone who tells you that their machine has enough accuracy to place 0201's doesn't understand that  at this scale, the problems are with picking and feeders.
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2018, 09:31:14 am »
I agree - the speed is not a factor for the target audience. On my machine - I usually run it at 50% speed or slower because the rest of the process is much slower than the machine itself. Paste, inspection, hand soldering, test, etc, etc....

The rating on my machine is 3600cph if it if perfectly optimized. I never optimize it and run it slow at about 1000cph or so and it is still faster than the pre and post processes in my case.

Reliability is key for me. If it can run for long periods without errors  - I could see it being useful. Sure would be nice if it can do 0402 (or better) all day long.
Speed is not a primary consideration but it needs to be at least as fast as hand placing. If the above figures are realistic than that's more than adequate, though at that sort of volume you absolutely need at least the option of a few reel feeders for the higher-quantity parts.

Reliable 0402 all day long is a very tough ask. Don't  think that anything smaller will ever be an option.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2018, 10:56:08 am »
A hobbyist has no use for a pick/place. Many people who think they want a P&P don't understand enough about it to know any better.
I don't agree Mike. We have a lot of elder hobbieists that are afraid to start with smt because their hands are not surgeon steady anymore or their eyesight has gone bad etc. Etc.

Then I can also state that no hobbieist needs more than one or two good multimeters and power supply.
Look at this forum people have many meters, supplies and state of the art stuff like 7,5 digits pro gear for what? This thing is so cheap it opens the market to start easy with smt for everybody, it lowers the starter barrier and i applaud them for doing so.

But yes a pro P&P is not necessary, and a different league.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 10:57:58 am by Kjelt »
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2018, 10:59:37 am »
Quote from: Kjelt link=topic=105419.msg1456653and/or #msg1456653 date=1521503768
A hobbyist has no use for a pick/place. Many people who think they want a P&P don't understand enough about it to know any better.
I don't agree Mike. We have a lot of elder hobbieists that are afraid to start with smt because their hands are not surgeon steady anymore or their eyesight has gone bad etc. Etc.
Those people need magnifiers and/or arm/hand-rests, not automatic pick & place machines.
Nobody needs a P&P machine to populate a board unless it has a lot of parts, as setting it up takes way more time than doing it manually.

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2018, 11:09:55 am »
manually placing is tedious work, esp when there are 50 parts or more per board. A mistake is easily made and when you make a mistake and touch/wipe some already placed parts you sometimes can start all over again.

The setting up should indeed be counted. I think hobbieist could limit their inventory for the designs to 20 different resistors , 10 mlcc caps so those could be setup permanently.

Semi automated p&p machines are not that common and cost more then this machine.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2018, 11:25:49 am »
manually placing is tedious work, esp when there are 50 parts or more per board.
Yes but so is setting up a machine.
Most hobbyists will only be doing one or two boards, unless there are a lot of the same part, it will never be quicker to set up than to place manually using a vacuum pen.
Quote
A mistake is easily made and when you make a mistake and touch/wipe some already placed parts you sometimes can start all over again.
A machine setup has at least as many ways to mess up. Like placing lots of parts wrong, instead of the odd one or two.
Quote
The setting up should indeed be counted. I think hobbieist could limit their inventory for the designs to 20 different resistors , 10 mlcc caps so those could be setup permanently.
that is just not realistic for most people.
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Online rx8pilot

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2018, 11:35:27 am »
Yes but so is setting up a machine.

Setting up a machine is a non-trivial task that is very unforgiving of the smallest mistake. I have spent a HUGE amount of time trying to streamline my setup workflow to reduce the time and mistakes. It still takes a lot of time and there are still mistakes.

A machine setup has at least as many ways to mess up. Like placing lots of parts wrong, instead of the odd one or two.

The faster your machine is, the faster you can make bad boards that end up being a nightmare to unravel.

The setting up should indeed be counted. I think hobbieist could limit their inventory for the designs to 20 different resistors , 10 mlcc caps so those could be setup permanently.
that is just not realistic for most people.



Totally.
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Offline asmi

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2018, 03:20:45 pm »
If I would have a PnP machine, I would go for a middle ground - automate placing most of parts (things like decoupling caps and pull-up resistors), and then place the rest manually. On my designs usually more than 70% of all parts are these decoupling caps/pullups and similar commonly used parts, so this would save quite some time while avoiding setup overhead. The problem I have is that most (by the count) of my decoupling caps are 0201, and I'm yet to see a machine that can place them while not costing an arm and a leg.
 

Offline nisma

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2018, 09:33:04 pm »
Yes, speed is not all, but it is important too.
For the use as prototyping tool, it is important to know the capability. If you have a board with spartan 6 (1mm bga) and ddr mem ic (60 pin 0.8mm pitch)
it is important to know if the pnp is able to assemble it or not. Same with resistors, if 0402 and 0201 works because for (semi)professional use, if machine
is not capable of placing the important chips, it is the wrong tool.

For the other case, i think tvm801 is better for that case as it allows to assemble more and higher parts.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 11:49:31 pm by nisma »
 

Offline 1uk3

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2018, 04:52:17 am »
Nobody needs a P&P machine to populate a board unless it has a lot of parts, as setting it up takes way more time than doing it manually.
Completely agree.
I do a lot of prototypes and one-offs and it doesn't make sense to use a P&P machine for this. I need one for the things i can't do eg. very dense LED arrays or a board with 100 copies of the same 10 parts. Without reel feeders OpenPlacer doesn't fill my niche  :(
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2018, 05:12:42 am »
Nobody needs a P&P machine to populate a board unless it has a lot of parts, as setting it up takes way more time than doing it manually.
Completely agree.
I do a lot of prototypes and one-offs and it doesn't make sense to use a P&P machine for this. I need one for the things i can't do eg. very dense LED arrays or a board with 100 copies of the same 10 parts. Without reel feeders OpenPlacer doesn't fill my niche  :(

As I have improved my workflow - P&P assembly of one-off prototypes is actually practical. It took a lot of legwork but I am able to setup a new PCB faster than I can manually assemble in most cases. The programming, part numbers, feeders, etc are carefully organized so that while I am waiting for the PCB fab I setup the machine. When the PCB arrives, the machine is 95% ready to go. I will avoid oddball parts like connectors, inductors that are not in the system, etc. Each prototype, I get a little faster. Still does not work for every project - but going in the right direction.



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Offline Furkan

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2018, 09:36:01 pm »
Dear all

We have conducted some tests with 402 and 201 SMD resistances. The videos and pictures are available at openplacer.com and will soon be available at Indiegogo campaign.

The test is conducted without using the bottom cam.

http://www.openplacer.com/?page_id=66

402 and 201 resistors are placed on tape with our smallest nozzle (0.5 mm inner diameter and 0.8 mm outer diameter) We had announced it as 0.6 mm but it is actually around 0.5 mm +-0.02 mm. It was hard to measure the inner diameter correctly.

We are working on a thinner nozzle with around 0.4 mm inner diameter, but we are not sure that it will be available before the end of the Indiegogo campaign.

I guess 402 users can feel more confident with Open Placer now.

Furkan
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2018, 10:00:13 pm »
I think you need 0.25 ID for 0201. The current state of 0402 looks promising. I'm glad I made the correct decision backing one at 799.
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Offline Gary.M

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2018, 09:49:47 am »
How complete is the integration of Openpnp with open Placer? Is this complete, or is it a work in progress? Can we see some video of Openpnp running the machine?
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2018, 03:50:56 am »
If this were my project - I would define the minimum capability as doing 0402 at 99% success rate or better. Then figure out how to make that performance as affordable as possible.

I have assembled two protos in the past week. One of them was nearly all 0805 the other was nearly all 0402 on the passives. The 0805 I just hand assembled because it was so easy. The 0402 PCB, I setup in my P&P because it was actually easier in the end. The benefit of P&P goes up rapidly as component size shrinks and component qty goes up.

It's like buying a cheap car that cannot go fast enough to drive on the expressway, preventing you from going to work and earning the money to pay for the car. It looks like a car and does some of the things a car should do - except it cannot get you to work. That lowers the interest and value dramatically for most.


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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2018, 07:02:32 pm »
It looks like the PCB sits on a flat plate. How do you handle double-sided assembly?
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