Othermill PCB Prototyper

[Slow Poke]

Whelp, I stopped by Bantam Tools [Othermill mfg] 3 days ago for a personal look-see at their Berkeley, CA location.

Door was locked to the public and I was a walk-in but they graciously opened up, explaining that they're not a store front but I should email for an appt.  Email I did, and entered my info to request sales info on their web site.  Right away I received a response from sales, recommending a ~$4k package for pcb prototyping.

But I like to try before I buy.  Soooo I asked if could demo cut a board from a few gerbers. 

No response today.

OK, might be Monday.  Scrolled down to their impressive looking software download button:

https://www.bantamtools.com/pages/products

Hit download for Windows 7+!

Um....um....tik...tok....timed out.  No download!  How 'boutcha - anyone able to download???

[Mark]

Software download worked for me, here it is on my dropbox:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gko49ex4qrjnmh2/BantamTools-1.2.2.msi?dl=0

[mrpackethead]

Seriously, Milling PCBs is just a receipe for fustration, for all but a few special use cases.   With PCBs avaialble so cheaply, theres no $$ reason to do it.

[beanflying]

Seriously, Milling PCBs is just a receipe for fustration, for all but a few special use cases.   With PCBs avaialble so cheaply, theres no $$ reason to do it.

Time, Build Tweak and Redo if needed are the major one and if you only need 1 or 2 total. Rapid prototyping processes will generally never compete on $ but Rapid/Custom is what it is about.

This one looks nice and tough with a good tool plate compared to say the Slightly upgraded Chinese 3020 I have. However for $3-4k USD there is NO WAY it is worth that much! Even if you went Chinese added a quality driver board spindle and had a tool plate made for you you would struggle to go over $2k even outsourcing the upgrades. If you do some of it DIY or at least design the bits $1k would be easy.

The other thing is how many boards would $3-4k of a local rapid prototyping (Fast Turnaround) company? This is the reason I don't own a welder/gas of any sort or much heavy metalworking gear, I spend $200-1k a year with these sorts of companies instead.

[Slow Poke]

Seriously, Milling PCBs is just a receipe for fustration, for all but a few special use cases.   With PCBs avaialble so cheaply, theres no $$ reason to do it.

Time, Build Tweak and Redo if needed are the major one and if you only need 1 or 2 total. Rapid prototyping processes will generally never compete on $ but Rapid/Custom is what it is about.

This one looks nice and tough with a good tool plate compared to say the Slightly upgraded Chinese 3020 I have. However for $3-4k USD there is NO WAY it is worth that much! Even if you went Chinese added a quality driver board spindle and had a tool plate made for you you would struggle to go over $2k even outsourcing the upgrades. If you do some of it DIY or at least design the bits $1k would be easy.

The other thing is how many boards would $3-4k of a local rapid prototyping (Fast Turnaround) company? This is the reason I don't own a welder/gas of any sort or much heavy metalworking gear, I spend $200-1k a year with these sorts of companies instead.

Application: Prototype development

Attraction:  ~1 hour from design in software to board - when it's where we want it, can send out for rapid prototype then manufacture with much higher chance of success

Problem:  Milling for fine pitch parts; outsourcing pcb yields grossly superior result

Hate to wait but experience w/mill vendors not inspiring confidence - cost not a problem - performance and access to the vendor are the issues.  Have etched in-house, mixed results and etching fine pitch parts can fail.

[mrpackethead]

I'm talking from experienece, as i previously owned a high end LPKF S62 Mill.     $30,000 of high end german engineering.

- How are you going to deal to vias.  This is a major issue you have to deal with.   
- Doing two layer is harder than you imagine to ensure registration.  Its doable.
- How will you do multilayer boards?

If you are only doing single sided boards, or specialist RF things, then it may be viable.

[beanflying]

So Electronics on PCB's can't exist without plated vias or multilayer boards and this is why not to buy a mill of any sort that was never able to do them in the first place? 

With proper jigging double sided boards can be positioned very accurately. Masking tape and T pins is not that solution as I see on some youtube videos  .

There are certainly limits with milling but you work with them and don't try and exceed them. You want a board multilayer board for 0201's and 0.1 traces you wait.

[cdev]

For RF boards, instead of vias you just put all the traces on top and have the bottom just be ground, and make the vias yourself with wire and flush wire cutters and hand soldering. Dont have any side grounds or top ground plane areas, it will just cause headaches. If anybody knows any better ways to do this I would like to know.

That said its great being able to make your own boards.

[mrpackethead]

So Electronics on PCB's can't exist without plated vias or multilayer boards and this is why not to buy a mill of any sort that was never able to do them in the first place? 

Well, actually the LPFK system is supposed to have done it.   But it rarely did.  Of course Electroincs can exisit on a single layer, but its extremely limitiing and precludes 90%+ of what modern design is calling for.  But if it fits your needs go for it.  I'm yet to met anyone who after using it for an extended period of time thinks its a good idea.





With proper jigging double sided boards can be positioned very accurately. Masking tape and T pins is not that solution as I see on some youtube videos  .

There are certainly limits with milling but you work with them and don't try and exceed them. You want a board multilayer board for 0201's and 0.1 traces you wait.
[/quote]

[beanflying]

So the Mill you used to own didn't meet 'it's claims' of milling multilayer boards and it is not the one the OP is considering is a reason not to buy because?  Milling depth accuracy for multilayer would seem pie in the sky IMO no matter how good the mechanics. Did you or did you not manage to make successful double sided boards or did you only ever make single sided on your router and did you use tape or a jig to hold the PCB's down?

In my case 90% of the boards I repair or work on in the coffee industry are at most double sided and still some of the older ones are still single layer. Not every industry in the world need SMD's and multilayer. Stuff I work on for myself I either have the time to wait for boards or make them the size required for components I can then manage with the gear available.

[Slow Poke]

• Mill would be for 2 sided boards only
• Only 1 RF board I'm looking to build, a simple affair.
• Soldered wire through via hole will suffice for milled boards
• Breakout boards for very fine pitch packages will work

Milled boards are strictly proof of concept for me - refinement can come after it works to spec.  Si mucho via stitching, too labor intensive - that'll go out for prototype board mfg.

So what am I looking to accomplish?  Design a board; within an hour have in hand.  Reflow....solder through holes....program what needs programming.  Troubleshoot!

[mrpackethead]

Hope it works out like that for you.  Mine ( and so many others ) experience  ( across many types of mills ) has just not panned out that way.

[Slow Poke]

Hope it works out like that for you.  Mine ( and so many others ) experience  ( across many types of mills ) has just not panned out that way.

I'll take your advice - the voice of experience always trumps sales material.  Until I see it work as needed with my source files, not happening.

Now, Bantam Tools does offer pre-defined samples....

     https://resources.bantamtools.com/sample-request

....video looks pretty good.  And they'll examine my source files....

     https://resources.bantamtools.com/file-review-request

....and that's nice.  But like a famous Missourian, have to see it cut for myself.  Should Bantam Tools offer that, maybe will do a video clip for ya'll.

_____________________________________________________________________

Here's the quote:

"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton, cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri, and you have got to show me." -- Congressman Willard Duncan Vandiver, 1899
_____________________________________________________________________

[Kean]

I've been milling PCBs for about 10 years, although I do very few these days now that China is so cheap and quick.  I prefer to spend extra time going over the design, and printing out scale copies to check footprints and mechanical clearances.

I started for the occasional prototype and to help teach other people PCB design.  It was especially useful for clients who needed a prototype yesterday, or to make up non-working mechanical samples for the industrial designers.  But I also use my CNC milling machines and CNC routers for machining other parts (aluminium and plastic) so the cost was easily justified.  I couldn't justify the Othermill myself, but I know people who have them.

You can certainly get very good results, even making double sided boards and solder resist.  I have made many double sided PCBs down to 0.5mm pitch and 0402 parts, but it is quite time consuming.  One of the big benefits over "home" etching is that the drills and PCB outline are precisely cut.  So precise that I would do double sided PCBs as two single sided half thickness boards, and then solder them back to back.  I also use those tiny copper rivets if I can afford the space for the larger vias needed.  One key thing is making sure the PCB material is as flat as possible, as you only want to make very shallow cuts, and any dips or bows will ruin part of the PCB.

See this Hackaday article from today for an example of what can be achieved if you have everything properly set up (a big task)
https://hackaday.com/2018/12/02/cnc-machine-most-satisfyingly-mills-double-sided-pcbs/

I've never had a board come off the mill looking that good - they generally need some work with fine steel wool and maybe a scalpel - but I also don't tend to buy the really expensive cutters.  I also never would have thought of milling off the resist layer - that needs very good Z precision.

[Slow Poke]

See this Hackaday article from today for an example of what can be achieved if you have everything properly set up (a big task)
https://hackaday.com/2018/12/02/cnc-machine-most-satisfyingly-mills-double-sided-pcbs/

Stunning!  0.1mm traces....but in Czech Republic.  WEGSTR's web site says they're out of stock until sometime in March - July......2018.  But still out of stock, I was able to add a unit to my shopping cart today!  Don't miss out.

Real?  Maybe will buy that Nigerian mill I was emailed about.

____________________________________________________________________

Correction:  European date notation = 12/3/18 - 12/7/18.  In other words, this week.

OK that's better.  Suddenly interesting, I set my Google to WEGSTR pcb milling --> 18.5k hits.  Looking into....constructed with thick plastic sheet, or fiberboard?  Moving table....looks like setup's a breeze:

https://youtu.be/STU5QUoNMJU

Amazon has brand new listing w/WEGSTR listed as vendor - evidently the Hackaday review was their entry into the US market....$2678.00 and $15.99 shipping:

https://www.amazon.com/Engraver-Engraving-Drilling-Milling-Machine/dp/B07DCPS387

Weighs 15.43 lb -- runs on 12v 5a DC -- direct drive brushless motor, likely monitors amp draw -- Runout???

No topo mapping?  May be a show stopper....

Seeing no in-depth pcb cutting reviews.  None. Zero.  That's an issue....

Warranty???  Manual download???

[Slow Poke]

Whelp, I stopped by Bantam Tools [Othermill mfg] 3 days ago for a personal look-see at their Berkeley, CA location.

Door was locked to the public and I was a walk-in but they graciously opened up, explaining that they're not a store front but I should email for an appt.  Email I did, and entered my info to request sales info on their web site.  Right away I received a response from sales, recommending a ~$4k package for pcb prototyping.

But I like to try before I buy.  Soooo I asked if could demo cut a board from a few gerbers. 

No response today.

The final stroke:  No response, period, other than a request to buy a mill: $4k USD.

For now:  No thanks, I don't believe I'll have any.

[ANTALIFE]

Daym that WEGSTR is a nice machine

https://youtu.be/cCm-UL-dCEc

Wowswers, they even mill the soldermask...