Author Topic: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B  (Read 112152 times)

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Offline ServoKit

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Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« on: March 06, 2016, 01:05:24 AM »
Creating a new thread specific to this particular machine. TVM802B is mostly identical but has more feeders.

Update on TVM802B: The machine comes with Juki / Juki-compatible nozzles. TVM802A has screw-in nozzles like in Neoden TM220/240 and similar.

Cost of machine as purchased: $3,400 including shipping from China to Germany.

Manufacturer: http://www.qihesmt.com/sell-2403372-pick-and-place-machine-vision-mounter-qihe-tvm802a-qihekj-qihe-smt-machine.html
Blog post re. purchase on Ali Express, importing & customs: http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/03/pick-place-tvm-802-a-arrived-today/
Blog post with unboxing (plenty of hi-res images): http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/04/unboxing-the-pick-and-place-tvm802a/
Blog post with setting up the machine: http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/05/tvm802a-pick-and-place-setup/

Will post more information and experiences as we go along.

Regards, Axel

« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 07:31:02 PM by ServoKit »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2016, 02:08:36 AM »
That table doesn't look very solid - I'd expect it to wobble a bit with the machine running....
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Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2016, 02:23:54 AM »
Yep, it does, a bit. Once we've settled for the layout of the production it will be bolted to the wall.

Regards, Axel
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2016, 02:42:09 AM »
Hi

Just to keep this fairly self contained, it might be a good idea to post the current delivered pricing in this thread. All of these machines are "made to sell at a price point". We quickly spiral off comparing $250,000 machines to $3,900 machines and wondering why the $3,900 gizmo "does not measure up". The most basic answer is that you didn't spend $250,000.

====

Bolt the table to a wall. Better yet, bolt it into a corner between two walls.

Bob
 

Offline electrfunch

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2016, 06:13:47 AM »
@ServoKit: Did the machine come with any kind of CE conformity documentation for customs clearance?

Regards,
PG 
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2016, 06:38:58 AM »
@uncle_bob: Good point, I've added it to the intro post.

@PG: No certificate or declaration of conformity. However, customs didn't ask, they just wanted their pound of flesh...

Regards, Axel
 

Offline thommo

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2016, 07:12:01 AM »
Hi Servokit,
Just wanted to congratulate you on the quality of your blog posts.

The guys over in the NeoDen4 forum would do well to take this style and use it as a reference standard, because there are a fair few issues being reported, but little on the steps and procedures that do function, but don't have proper documentation.

Well done and please keep them coming.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 07:14:21 AM by thommo »
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2016, 07:17:00 AM »
Hi

So now (at least to me) some of the most fundamental questions:

1) How well does it do on 0.5 mm pitch leaded parts?

2) How well does it do on 0.5 to 1.0 mm pitch BGA's?

You may or may not place a dozen of either one on a board. Most modern boards (other than Blinky Light stuff) is rapidly going to fine(r) pitch parts.

Bob
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2016, 10:18:52 AM »
Axel thanks for creating this post and sharing with all of us in such detail.

I'm very excited to see how well this machine works for you. I have high hopes for it based on all the videos I have seen of similar systems.

I'm considering the CharmHigh version with vision + LCD that's selling for $5,000 based on how well this works out for you.

Keep the great review coming along.

Can you share with us what kind of boards you plan on running and how fine pitch the parts you plan on placing?

I would need the machine to place 0.5mm spaced no lead parts accurately.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2016, 12:48:03 PM »
Hi

One thing, at least in my case ... I could care less (to some limit) how long it takes to place a 484 ball FPGA. If it wants to take three pictures of both top and bottom of the part and six pictures of the board, that's fine. It can run in the most awful dead slow mode it wants to while getting the job done. For speed, I care about the other 578 parts on the board, not the single big IC. Doing the test with all the settings set to "be careful" is fine.

Bob
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2016, 04:48:18 PM »
@thommo: Thanks!

@Bob, rwb:

We won't do any fine pitch or BGA stuff, at least for now. I see this as an entry level machine to produce the first generation of our controller boards. They have around 30 parts, mostly 0805, some TSSOPs and SOT23. The boards will be panelized with a typical run being 20 panels with 6-8 PCBs each. We wanted to have the boards made but the online calculators we tried were like $10 per board for manufacturing alone. With a little luck the machine will pay for itself after a few runs.

The machine comes with a sample PCB (33 x 100mm) that has some fine pitch components on it (.5 or .65, not sure). Once I get my hands on some cheap chips of the right size I will try this out. BGAs are most certainly not an option with this machine, the cameras are simply not good enough wrt resolution and optics. No leads, maybe.

Regards, Axel
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:10:44 PM by ServoKit »
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2016, 05:01:26 PM »
When do you plan on running your boards or doing some initial testing?

I'm very eager to see how the software programming and first run goes of for you.
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2016, 05:36:24 PM »
Will post a video later today; we hope to finalize the PCB design in two weeks and have the first boards in late March / early April.

Regards, Axel
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2016, 09:36:05 PM »
Ok, video of the very first test run is here:



Blog post: http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/06/tvm802a-first-test-run/

Regards, Axel
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2016, 09:40:06 PM »
For test runs,use thin film doublesided sticky tape to stop placed parts moving
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Online matseng

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 09:45:25 PM »
That table doesn't look very solid - I'd expect it to wobble a bit with the machine running....
Would the table-wobbling affect the placement?  If the machine is internally sturdy enough to not warping while the entire unit moves then it should be all good - or?
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2016, 09:50:01 PM »
@matseng: Not the actual placement. The machine itself does not warp or anything, it's rock solid. But when the head moves fast and then stops you feel the table shaking ever so slightly. Parts sticking to solder paste wouldn't move, I think, but chips just lying there do.

@mike: Thanks for the tip.

Regards, Axel
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2016, 09:52:06 PM »
If it shakes,parts may jump out of the tape.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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Offline Psi

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2016, 09:54:37 PM »
make a concrete slab to bolt it too.
Problem solved.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2016, 11:04:11 PM »
Concrete maybe a bit Ott, though that,s what Essemtech do for their machines
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Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2016, 12:11:06 AM »
Video #2:



I found some empty smd breakout boards in the cave which make for a more realistic test. Also experimented with the speeds and contrast settings for the cameras a bit. I also found that the "Quick" setting for the vision system is more than sufficient if the part is already properly aligned, i.e. not skewed in the tray.

The software has very useful feature, don't know if this is common for that kind of machine: If you have no pick place data you can position the camera over the PCB, move it where the center of a part is and add this coordinate to the part list, kind of a teach-in.

If you look closely, you see that part #3 moves a bit after released by the nozzle. I think this wouldn't happen with paste.

Regards, Axel
 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 12:13:33 AM by ServoKit »
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2016, 04:06:42 AM »
Excellent high quality videos Axel!

The machine looks to do great in the 2nd video.

The vision makes all the difference with this line of machines.

Now lets see it place 1000 x 0603's with zero errors?  :-+

If I end up buying the Charmhigh version I promise to do just as good of a review as you are doing.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2016, 05:44:03 AM »
@thommo: Thanks!

@Bob, rwb:

We won't do any fine pitch or BGA stuff, at least for now. I see this as an entry level machine to produce the first generation of our controller boards. They have around 30 parts, mostly 0805, some TSSOPs and SOT23. The boards will be panelized with a typical run being 20 panels with 6-8 PCBs each. We wanted to have the boards made but the online calculators we tried were like $10 per board for manufacturing alone. With a little luck the machine will pay for itself after a few runs.

The machine comes with a sample PCB (33 x 100mm) that has some fine pitch components on it (.5 or .65, not sure). Once I get my hands on some cheap chips of the right size I will try this out. BGAs are most certainly not an option with this machine, the cameras are simply not good enough wrt resolution and optics. No leads, maybe.

Regards, Axel

Hi

I certainly do not disagree with your evaluation that this is an entry level machine and one can easily ask to much of it. My problem is that when I take a look at modern MCU's and FPGA's it is rare to find a non-BGA part. When you do, 0.5 mm pitch is what they offer. It may be leaded, it may be  one of the no lead packages.  Either way you are stuck with a beast of a part to place. If I'm looking at that situation on new designs today, it's only going to get worse over a (hopefully) multi-year life of the machine.

======

You might consider putting the machine on the floor until you get your table tied down. I'd also recommend haunting the local sales lists for a real assembly table. Often you can find them cheap (like haul it away) and they are a lot more sturdy than anything you can buy at a big box store.

Bob
 

Offline ServoKit

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2016, 06:17:15 AM »
@Bob: For the second video we tied the table to another one which eliminated almost all shaking (note that we place the same parts in roughly half the time and have better results). The camera is on a tripod isolated from the table and all apparent movement of the image is from focus pumping. For the time being perfectly acceptable.

@rwb: After three days with the machine I certainly wouldn't even consider a system without vision. I think you will want to have at least a camera for the fiducials, everything else is just guessing. The software lets you define multiple fiducials for panelized PCBs and will optionally center each of them before placing parts on the individual PCBs. Very useful and a good compensation for not having encoders.

Regards, Axel
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2016, 06:25:23 AM »
Ok, video of the very first test run is here:



Blog post: http://servokit.com/blog/2016/03/06/tvm802a-first-test-run/

Regards, Axel
That vision is taking forever...
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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