Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[wraper]

I never had this problem with TQFP where the pins (with good contrast) define the edges.

You could try modify/add lighting so the reflection angles become different.

[huebsch]

Folks!
I just got my TVM802A - got it running some sort of. I found one strange thing which causes troubles. From time to time the machine seems to skip a command. Sometimes a board runs through without any problems. Minutes later the prick or a nozzle stays down and the head moves. Of course this messes up the machine, rips off the belts or crashes the nozzle into one of the screws :-(

Does anybody have an idea what might cause the trouble?

I'm working on a W10 machine. Network is 192.168.0.x so no changes here, I'm connected to my company network, but even when I'm isolated (PC directly connected to TVM802) this happened. Cameras where recognized immediately, no need to install drivers.

Thanks for any ideas, maybe some brain storming might direct me in the right direction. So even if you have no definitive solution idea I need some new ideas to look for.

I had a strange thing in the beginning. The ground wire inside the machine was off. So I had about 85V from the frame against earth. I recognized it when I touched the PC case and the frame of the TVM802. I opened the side found the loose wire. I crimped a new plug and the voltage on the TVM802 body is gone. Maybe there is a problem with the power supply internally but now it looks OK.

Arnold

[protoneer]

It soulds like the Windows 10 issues people have had where network commands does not get to the machine. Win7 works very well...

[harry4516]

It soulds like the Windows 10 issues people have had where network commands does not get to the machine. Win7 works very well...

Thats also what I have in mind, Win10 could be the problem.
You can get a Win7 license on ebay for a few Euros, give it a try, may work much better.

Connect the PC to the 802 as short as possible, not through busy network routers.

When the Win7 setup and updating is complete, switch off the auto updater. Automatic updates can cause
immense network traffic in background.

[ar__systems]

Folks!
I just got my TVM802A - got it running some sort of. I found one strange thing which causes troubles. From time to time the machine seems to skip a command. Sometimes a board runs through without any problems. Minutes later the prick or a nozzle stays down and the head moves. Of course this messes up the machine, rips off the belts or crashes the nozzle into one of the screws :-(

Does anybody have an idea what might cause the trouble?

I'm working on a W10 machine. Network is 192.168.0.x so no changes here, I'm connected to my company network, but even when I'm isolated (PC directly connected to TVM802) this happened. Cameras where recognized immediately, no need to install drivers.

Thanks for any ideas, maybe some brain storming might direct me in the right direction. So even if you have no definitive solution idea I need some new ideas to look for.

I had a strange thing in the beginning. The ground wire inside the machine was off. So I had about 85V from the frame against earth. I recognized it when I touched the PC case and the frame of the TVM802. I opened the side found the loose wire. I crimped a new plug and the voltage on the TVM802 body is gone. Maybe there is a problem with the power supply internally but now it looks OK.

Arnold

I had same problem on W10. It actually broke me a couple of nozzles that way. Switched to running on XP machine.

[tmf]

Have any of the TVM802B users got any comments on the feeder system? 

Are you breaking cover tapes? Does it relaibly feed.

And anyone doing 0402?

yes, it feeds reliably, no problem with cover tapes. But needs some adjustment from time to time.
If something goes wrong, the 802B stops and beeps until you fix the problem.
Most problems are self made. With every board I learn a bit and it works better and better.

0402, can work, but I would not do it as my standard parts, 0603 are fine.
For my 0402 parts I always use the camera, even for R and Cs.

Before placing a batch of boards I test the adjustment by placing the most difficult part to a board with double-sided adhesive tape,
a QFN or TQFP to check for any offsets.
Usually the camera rotation needs adjustment. Once adjusted it remains stable for the full batch.
On another day it may need readjustment.
The cam rotation is the only value I adjust regularly, all the other values look to be stable over weeks.

I put a videao on youtube this week which shows some close-up views of the pick&place head beginning at minute 2:30

Do you have a method to calibrate the machine? I just got a TVM802A and can not find how to do this!

RichardS

[SPY GUY]

Hiya all
So sorry that this is my first post here if I should have first said Hi on a new introductory member thread.
Been reading this thread quite a lot and a few times, hence the SPY part of my chosen user name 

I would really first like to start by thanking ServoKit and all other contributors on this thread that freely share much valueable and appreciated information 
Reading your posts that share information, modifications, knowledge and experience, good or bad, directly resulted in my recently aquiring a TVM802B.

I hope this will allow me to participate here and allow me to now reciprocally contribute.

I do appreciate that there are limits to this equipment, but then at its price point think it is a good entry option and provides a very interesting degree of customisation possibilties, expadability and flexibility that I am able and willing to perform, and I hope will make interesting reading.
I am very comfortable in both software and hardware areas, hardware being electronic and engineering wise.

I have already started on making a quick swappable racking system for the IC stack area

When purchasing, I also aquired a rather interesting Vibratory tube feeder option that I have yet to try out, and will of course let you know more about this with pictures 

I am running Sucface V2.23, V2.27 and V.28 on Win7 and annoyingly also see a nozzle left down.

I have 12 Juki Nozzles ranging between the 503 and 506, but just purchased 20 more,
above and below this size range, at prices of mostly $14 each.

I believe and hope I am already about half way through the steep learning curve required.

My only outstanding issue is that I could do with some help with is that I still need to figure how to change the coordinates for componant discarding location.

 

[tmf]

Hiya all
So sorry that this is my first post here if I should have first said Hi on a new introductory member thread.
Been reading this thread quite a lot and a few times, hence the SPY part of my chosen user name 

I would really first like to start by thanking ServoKit and all other contributors on this thread that freely share much valueable and appreciated information 
Reading your posts that share information, modifications, knowledge and experience, good or bad, directly resulted in my recently aquiring a TVM802B.

I hope this will allow me to participate here and allow me to now reciprocally contribute.

I do appreciate that there are limits to this equipment, but then at its price point think it is a good entry option and provides a very interesting degree of customisation possibilties, expadability and flexibility that I am able and willing to perform, and I hope will make interesting reading.
I am very comfortable in both software and hardware areas, hardware being electronic and engineering wise.

I have already started on making a quick swappable racking system for the IC stack area

When purchasing, I also aquired a rather interesting Vibratory tube feeder option that I have yet to try out, and will of course let you know more about this with pictures 

I am running Sucface V2.23, V2.27 and V.28 on Win7 and annoyingly also see a nozzle left down.

I have 12 Juki Nozzles ranging between the 503 and 506, but just purchased 20 more,
above and below this size range, at prices of mostly $14 each.

I believe and hope I am already about half way through the steep learning curve required.

My only outstanding issue is that I could do with some help with is that I still need to figure how to change the coordinates for componant discarding location.

 

Hey Spy Guy, I am new here also, so we probably have a lot in common :-) except yours is B and mine is A (with the juki nozzles)

I had not heard until you saying that it left nozzle down win WIN7... crap!

I am also looking for info on completely tuning this things zero's....

RichardS

[harry4516]

Hello and congrats for your new machines.

Tuning, thats the hard part, it took me a full week after getting my machine. You will learn a lot during setup.
I did it in April, here is what I remember:

The 802 is totally unconfigured when shipped (at least my machine was unconfigured, the values already entered in the setup unusable, maybe this has changed). You need a full setup before the first run. A starting point are the pictures delivery with the software, these values are not good, but better than nothing. So enter all these values from the jpg files into the system setup.

Next thing is to fine tune the pick-up coordinates of the left stack (and the back for the 802B). Start with the left front reel first. Install a reel and move the nozzle to the position previously taken from the jpg picture. Then correct the Y pos until the nozzle is centered. Now you need to check and correct the prick offset, the prick must exactly hit the hole of the tape. After running a simple PnP job for this reel, the prick will move the tape to the X position. Now the nozzle must be adjusted manually for the X pos over the component. The X pos should be the same for all left stack reel, the Y pos must be adjusted for every reel (back stack upside-down)

For the place postion the camera-1 offset must be adjusted. I do this work before every batch of boards because this setting is not stable over time or temperature. I use a chip with as many pins as possible and a real board, put some doublesided adhesive tape to the place location and then start a test run.
If the chip is not placed correctly I adjust cam-1's x and y offset and the rotation until it is placed perfectly.

There are other settings, so take your time.

BTW I never had a problem with nozzle down. If the nozzle is accidentialy down (i.e. by manual move) the machine beeps and print a warning and stops.
Harry

[tmf]

Hello and congrats for your new machines.
Tuning, thats the hard part, it took me a full week after getting my machine. You will learn a lot during setup.
I did it in April, here is what I remember:

The left prick offset is measured from what 0,0? offset from what?

I understand howto zero the nozzle per tape feeder.

Also the nozzle 1 and nozzle 2 vision offset I you can test #1 but what about #2??

Thanks!

RichardS

[SPY GUY]

Many Many thanks Harry ;-)

Seeing your super cool custom milled IC stack tray and videos was certainly hugely inspirational and what mostly convinced me to go for the TVM802B.
I have CNC routing equipment but only go through thin <2.0 mm ally sheets so don't really do depths (Z) much 

My TVM802B came pre loaded with the settings as per CD Jpg's.

I am guessing that these settings are actually stored in the machine itself via TCP/IP based read and write commands.

So I had a little head start, but still have had to do some tuning, figuring and learning which does take at least a week.

I quickly figured about the Left and Rear tape stack pick point & prick point aligning requirement.

I have however only just started playing with all the camera positioning and relative offsets to nozzles etc.p

I note and appreciate your experienced comments re time and temp causing these to shift and already have the transparent sticky tape aspect up my sleeve ;-)

I don't actually need to put ths machine to work until late Nov, and in  the meantime will ensure that by then I will be as knowledgable and conversant as Europeanly possible with it ;-)

If the nozzle is accidentialy down (i.e. by manual move) the machine beeps and print a warning and stops.

Not seen mine do this yet, which is something I would have coded in, and expected, just been stepping through two TFQP placements from a standard waffle tray. After picking one up using nozzle 2 it dropped nozzle one, next step saw it dragging the tray, and me swearing a l
As I stated, in Win 7.

I think that you just have to go into owning and using one of these with an open mind and apprciation of what it is and is not for it's cost and be willing to fill in the gaps yourself and be forgiving and understanding.

[protoneer]

They are great little machines. I have made just over 1000 units with mine and I am looking to make a small tweak to it.

I use the smallest nozzle a lot and find that the pressure sensor does not detect when the tiny nozzles missed a pick up. The bigger nozzles work very well.

[SPY GUY]

hiya protoneer

I use the smallest nozzle a lot

Just to help me and others clarify and fully undestand what you mean, mine came with 4 different Nozzle sizes labeled No1 to No4.
These equate to juki numbers of 503,4,5 and 6.

I quickly learned that Juki has a smaller 500/1/2 as well as a larger 507,8 and a 510 and 511.

So which size on the Juki numbers are you referring to as in "using the smallest"?



 

 

 
 

[protoneer]

hiya protoneer

I use the smallest nozzle a lot

Just to help me and others clarify and fully undestand what you mean, mine came with 4 different Nozzle sizes labeled No1 to No4.
These equate to juki numbers of 503,4,5 and 6.

I quickly learned that Juki has a smaller 500/1/2 as well as a larger 507,8 and a 510 and 511.

So which size on the Juki numbers are you referring to as in "using the smallest"?

Yes... That is where the plot thickens. I have a TVM802A that uses non-Juki nozzles.

The smallest I have is able to pickup 0402-0805 where the next up is struggling to pickup 0805 consistently.

Does anyone know where I can buy some spare nozzles for an TVM802A? I asked for a quote form the machine supplier and they quoted $100 per nozzle and $80 shipping. That sounds a bit steep to me but I only have one #1 nozzle left after my Win10 episode...

The nozzles were on Aliexpress a while back but I have not seen them in a while. It also makes me wonder if I can upgrade the machine to Juki nozzles.

[tmf]

Yes... That is where the plot thickens. I have a TVM802A that uses non-Juki nozzles.

The smallest I have is able to pickup 0402-0805 where the next up is struggling to pickup 0805 consistently.

Does anyone know where I can buy some spare nozzles for an TVM802A? I asked for a quote form the machine supplier and they quoted $100 per nozzle and $80 shipping. That sounds a bit steep to me but I only have one #1 nozzle left after my Win10 episode...

T.he nozzles were on Aliexpress a while back but I have not seen them in a while. It also makes me wonder if I can upgrade the machine to Juki nozzles

So I have contacts to get the nozzles for around $20 a pop, if you want let me know, where are you in the world I was just going to order some...

My machine 802A just came and had juki installed :-)

R.

[tmf]

@SPYGUY

Any hints on prick calibration? Still can not figure that one out well enought.

RichardS

[harry4516]

today I did some work on the vacuum of the TVM802.

The built-in pump can do 150mbar (2.2psi) which is a very good value for a small pump.
But it takes a lot of time until it reaches this low pressure.
The normal working pressure is about 500mbar (7.3psi).

Then I replaced it with an external pump combined with a pressure tank (2 liters).
This external pump can go down to 10 mbar (0.15psi) in a few seconds. Now sucktion is very well.

However there is another problem now: For 0603 parts I use the Yuki 503. With the lower pressure the pressure sensor does not work any more. It works only between 400mbar and 650mbar (5.8 - 9.4 psi)
With the 504 nozzle it works without problem. Tomorrow I will try to pick 0603 parts with the yuki 504, lets see if it works or not.
Unfortunately there is no adjustment for the pressure detector.

[protoneer]

So I have contacts to get the nozzles for around $20 a pop, if you want let me know, where are you in the world I was just going to order some...

My machine 802A just came and had juki installed :-)

R.

Thanks. I will have to look into upgrading my machine to take Juki nozzles first. I asked the machine supplier about upgrade kits but they said they will have to do it. (NOT!!!!)

I get the feeling its as simple as fitting a new nozzle holder to the small stepper motors and making sure that the nozzles sits at the same height as the old one. (The new TVM920 software seems to be configurable for things like this.)

Can you tell me what version of the software you are running?

I calibrated the prick with the tray settings. The Prick needs to align with every trays advancement holes. The Prick is tapered and will slip into the hole when properly aligned. (For each tray I moved the head manually and dropped the prick making sure it was aligned.)

After that the Nozzle to Prick offset needs to be set to ensure the nozzle picks up the part in the center. This bit is still not 100% on my machine cause when the part rotates 360 I can see that its not 100% centered.

[harry4516]

motivated by ar__systems I did a first test run with an external vac pump today.
What a difference !!!
Instead of the (correct) 503 nozzle I use the 504 for the 0603 parts. The 504 is usually too big, but with the better vacuum is works excellent.
Here are some pics of my setup.

Placement is significantly better. Now the last remaining problem is the inaccurate vision of the 802.

BTW, I opened the placement head: the manufacturing quality is very good. I did not expect such a good quality from a Chinese company. Compared with the pictures of the other desktop PnP machines the 802 has the best manufacturing quality.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I suspect that a two stage oil pump is a bit overkill

Bob

[ar__systems]

Recently I started to make paneling outside of the TVM's software. So if I have a panel of 10 boards, 10 parts each, I don't give the machine a 10 parts data file and configure it for 10 boards. Instead I it one data file of 100 parts and configure it as single PCB. Saves time on fiducials and such, when you have to restart the job.

[SPY GUY]

@tmf
I have not actually done a prick calibration myself yet, but it seems so logical and  straight forward enough to me that I feel i understand it enough to offer some comment

I believe it is all about the possibility of a small difference between the position of the prick holes relative to the actual part locations on any particular tape that may vary between reels / suppliers etc.

As a generilized example only
Take an 8mm wide tape, the prick hole might be anywhere between say 6.5mm to 7.5 mm across its width, so you need to adjust the pricks position across the tape width, so it drops in the hole at least correctly in this particular direction.

The other direction is not so important as once it's correct across the width, it will drop into a hole and pull the tape forward repeatably by the assigned pitch, to the point where it then pulls out.

So then you just have to manually set the nozzles pick up point of the part itself centrally, relative to where the prick mechanism has moved the tape to and exited the hole.

@harry4516
wow that's quite some upgrade to the Vacumn system. Thanks for sharing ;-)
Like Bob though, I do wonder if it is not a bit overkill.
Would be nice to know the parts, sources, Part numbers and costs though, because sometimes overkill is nice ;-)   

Although I have not checked, I imagine that as the pumps run full time, the pipes up to the solenoid valves in the heads hold vacumn, that is then quickly depleted when the solenoid valves are energized.
I wonder therefore if just tapping in a small accumulator / reservoir might yield a cheaper and less complex improvement.

Re the pressure sensor problem I read so much of.
Although the software accepts only a digial yes / no switch type input, from the digital sensor
I imagine it to be realatively easy to replace the current digital output sensor with an analogue one that has it's ouput fed into a comparator as well as that of a user adjustable potentiometer.

@ar_systems
I actually do both using fram and per PCB fiducials, but prefer outside paneling.
I have panels where only one board failed an electrical check and so can delete this.

On another note re moving the discard coordinates
I just got yet another variation of the V28 software that has new fields in the config sys menu for this. Of course there are also new bugs with this version.

Whats New LOL

     

[harry4516]

Hi

I suspect that a two stage oil pump is a bit overkill

Bob

sure, this is overkill,
previously I had a membrane pump of the same size. It had two problems. The engine got very hot after a minute and it only started at normal pressure, not if vac was already there.
The new pump costs about $250 and stays cold even after 10 minutes.

[rx8pilot]

I use a very overkill pump on my machine with a storage tank and controller. The nice thing is that is cycles every 5-10 minutes and only stays on for 30sec to a minute. It is a rotary type and very quiet even when it is running, but it is much better than a pump that has to run continuously in terms of noise. Originally I thought that it would be a problem since the vacuum is not constant, but so far it is not a problem at all.

[protoneer]

@rx8pilot , @harry4516 , @ar_systems

Would this vacuum pump do the job? They go for US$100 shipping included..

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/FY-1H-N-150W-1L-Lightweight-portable-air-compressor-vacuum-air-pump-for-vacuum-LCD-separator/32736004424.html?spm=2114.13010208.99999999.304.2cWg7z

Also do you need some kind of regulator to limit the vacuum or will the air valves(solenoids) be okay without it?