Author Topic: Pick & Place MachineTVM920  (Read 96619 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline TJ232

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • Country: 00
  • www.esp8266-projects.com
    • ESP8266 Projects
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2016, 08:10:57 pm »
I would like also to see a TVM920 at work. As you already know I am looking also for a small unit for the proto jobs.
Is anyboy here that has a TVM920 and want to do the great presentation job that was done for the TVM802 ?
 
The following users thanked this post: cgroen

Offline cgroen

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
  • Country: dk
    • Carstens personal web
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2016, 08:34:41 pm »
I would like also to see a TVM920 at work. As you already know I am looking also for a small unit for the proto jobs.
Is anyboy here that has a TVM920 and want to do the great presentation job that was done for the TVM802 ?

Same here, would really love to see more of the 920 !!
(looking at the Neoden 4 and the TVM920, the 920 is on the top of the list because of the feeders, but need to see some "real world" footage of it ;) )
 

Offline zszabo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: hu
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2016, 02:37:52 am »
Hi All,

I see there are some who owe the TVM920 already for some time.
Im looking to buy one too.

My question is if the machine owners are still satisfied and can use they machine even for 0402 and fine pitch ? The software is OK ? Everything goes smooth with this machine ?

Thank You in advance !
Zoltan
 

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2016, 06:28:33 am »
I don't think it will handle 0402.
For 0402 you need a professional machine and a constant room temperature in your workshop.
Aluminium changes its length 0,24mm for 10 degC and 1m total size. This is too much for a reliable placement of 0402.
 
The following users thanked this post: zszabo

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8600
  • Country: lv
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2016, 07:22:11 am »
I don't think it will handle 0402.
For 0402 you need a professional machine and a constant room temperature in your workshop.
Aluminium changes its length 0,24mm for 10 degC and 1m total size. This is too much for a reliable placement of 0402.
If the software is smart enough and can use 3 fiducials, this shouldn't be a problem to compensate. Also, I don't think that 0.5m + long boards with 0402 parts are the usual things people assemble with such machines
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2016, 05:51:38 pm »
Guys - my machine [TVM920] should ship sometime around mid next week. Once I get things 'settled' I will post some images, video and provide some feedback for you all.

Yes - I expect that it does/and will handle 0402 components - it 'needs' to for our use case.

AFA as 10 degree swings are concerned - even I can't handle those conditions! This machine will be in an AC environment [along with all the other bigger machines that people seem compelled to compare these (relatively) inexpensive machines to].

Thanks - Peter
 
The following users thanked this post: TJ232, zszabo

Offline zszabo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: hu
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2016, 01:43:33 am »
Hi Thommo,

From where did You bought ? I mean TVM920 from QIHe or the same machine SMT560  Wenzhou Yingxing Ipmort And Export Co.,ltd ?
Did You bought any feeder ?
How much did You payed for it ? Did You payed all in advance ?

Thank You !
Zoltan
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2016, 11:32:42 am »
G'day Zolton,

We purchased our machine from QiHe directly.

Yes - we have also ordered Feeders, and QiHe will also supply these too.

In total we ordered approx 70 Feeders, including [approx] 15 for 0402 size components, as well as a 3-tube Vibration Feeder.

Asia, as you may know, is very sensitive in relation to things like 'price'. We paid very close to what they are asking for it, but we did purchase a large Feeder package, Stencil Printer, and some other items, so they were prepared to negotiate a little on this with us - in the end we were satisfied with our offer.

I think the mistake that we ALL make is to try and screw our Asian friends down in price to the point where they can move no further. And THEN, complain when we are not delivered a World Quality and Performance piece of equipment. We would not accept this from our customers, however it appears to be fair game for Asian suppliers and I believe it's entirely the wrong approach.

I must say that these guys have been extremely helpful to deal with and fully prepared to co-operate with any of our unique requirements.

The proof will of course be in the pudding, however we've seen generally very good reports from customers who purchased their other machines, with the largest issues seemingly being 'component feed' related - all issues which we believe the 920's Yamaha feeders will resolve.

The 920 software App is certainly not the greatest, but it is very capable of delivering the required workflow IMO.

Their latest mods to the machine and Application will accommodate 56x 8mm Feeders and unique 30x Tray Comp[onent IDs - approx 86 variants in total, so a very capable machine all in all.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to contact them directly. I have included Daisy' Skype address in a previous post. She is our representative and interface to the company.

BTW - I'd really appreciate the kudos if you were to mention that 'Peter from Melbourne Australia' recommended you contact them   :-)

Pete
 

Offline zszabo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: hu
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2016, 02:48:29 pm »
Thank You Peter, Im already in contact with Daisy, just I see very slow communication, as it looks they dont want to sell the machine to me :)
Just now I mention about You, hopefully that will speed up things :)

All the best !
Zoltan
 

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2016, 09:35:21 am »
it will be very interesting to see the first results from Peter.

The biggest problem of the little brother, the TVM802, is not the accuracy of the stepper or mechanics, these are quite well.
The problem is the vision accuracy of the camera detecting the IC surroundings.

After half a year and tons of boards I still have not found a setting that gives reliable results for ICs.
About 50% of my boards need manual correction before soldering. This is not a problem, but would be nicer if the parts are placed accurately by the machine.

I will make a video showing the difficulties in daily work with the machine.
Lets see how the TVM920 is doing this job.
 
The following users thanked this post: Muxr

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2016, 12:58:29 pm »
Harry 4516,

If you are able to take some pics and/or video for me that illustrates this problem [along with the results], I'll raise it with QiHe. The sooner the better [while I have some leverage].

I assume it is not an issue with either the quality of the camera or lens, nor the positioning of the component over the camera for imaging, rather it seems you are describing an issue with edge/feature detection of components - in particular ICs.

If this assumption is correct, can you please tell me what you believe is the biggest contributor to the poor outcome?
eg:
exposure
contrast
lighting
algorithm

Or could it be subsequent movement of the component [because ICs are larger and have greater mass] over the path to its destination on the board? Have you tried a very slow transition from visual recognition to board placement, and if so, do you still get the same result?

Does your software application show on screen what the detection result is? And if so, is this the stage where you have determined there is an issue, or not until after that when it is placed onto the pads of the board?

Do other users also have this issue, and has it been reported?

Please let's know and I'll see what I can get done about it.

Peter
 

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2016, 10:36:17 am »
Peter, I will do a couple of boards during the next days and will have the cam running.

The mechanical positioning is very accurate, I never had a problem with loosing steps or similar.

There are mainly two problems:
for small parts (mainly SOT23 and similar) sucktion is not good enough. The parts can move or even jump or flip on the nozzle while traveling. I.e. I run SOT23s with 20% only, that works in most cases.

The second problem is the edge detection of ICs with the camera. Some ICs are fine, but other are really worse. Currently I have this one: CSD97376 in SON case.
The misplacement is almost 1mm. The green line on the cam picture shows this misdetection clearly. Whatever exposure is set, it does not get better. This case has very smal pads, so the cam should detect the complete case not just the pads. Unfortunately most IC cases are black which gives no contrast. While I am writing this I got the idea to place a piece of white paper on the nozzle to give the cam a better contrast against the black IC cases, will try that tomorrow.

With simple SO16 cases is a rotation problem, this was also reported in another German forum.
And QFN (0,5mm pitch) are sometimes placed very precise, next time with 0,2 to 0,5mm misplacement.

I am not annoyed about it. The correction under the microscope takes me 20 seconds and I can solder the board.
Anyway, it would be nicer without the need for manual correction.

Will take a video until next week.

Harry

(for the people reading this for the first time: I am talking about the TVM802, not the TVM920 which may be different or not, we don't currently know).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 10:38:20 am by harry4516 »
 

Offline ar__systems

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 460
  • Country: ca
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2016, 11:58:34 am »
Harry I find speeds 50% and below not usable at all, because vibration increases at lower speed. I can place 0603 at 90% with nearly 100% perfect placement. And get yourself external vac :)
There are 3 tubes going up - two clear tubes for vac and one black for positive pressure. So disconnect the two clear tubes from their pumps and connect two clear tubes and external vac source with a T connector. Not only external pump is better, but since I can place it in the other room it is a lot less annoying than the built-in pump :) The machine then runs quietly.

I don't have any problems with SOT-23.

in the last few month I spent some time to redesign the native feeder block and the stripping mechanism. In two weeks I'm going to get the last remaining parts for my feeder block. Hopefully that will provide an improvement.
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2016, 08:40:56 pm »
In relation to suction and holding power, the TVM920 is different to the TVM802 machines [I believe] - not the least because it requires an independent, external air supply.

Not detecting an ICs pins, or balls, is definitely an issue that I am hoping we do not suffer.

Some still pictures, together with some video, will be a very good start to resolving your problems though. As I have said in previous posts, we have found the QiHe team very good to work with and they are seriously keen to improve. They also welcome feedback - and obviously, the better this feedback is presented to them, the more likely they are to comprehend the issue at hand, and we all are to get a result.
 ;)
 

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2016, 12:29:29 am »
I played a bit with QFN detection and made a video:


TQFP works much (!) better, maybe because the "edges" of TQFP are the pins with very good contrast.
QFNs without pins are much harder for detection.

@ar__systems: thanks a lot for describing the VAC tubes. This is an improvement I will definitively do next week.
The built-in pump looks to be a membrane pump. Is it better to buy a piston pump to get a very deep vacuum ?

EDIT:
I had some false detects caused by the black paper shield. There is an almost invisible edge of this paper and
cam-1 sometimes detects that instead of the part. This could be solved with the threshold setting, but I did not find a setting
which works for all parts.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 08:02:57 pm by harry4516 »
 

Offline ar__systems

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 460
  • Country: ca
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2016, 12:34:06 am »
Harry, the main limitation of the built-in pump is not insufficient vacuum, but limited throughput. It takes time to swallow the air from the tubing immediately after pick up. You can notice this by changes in the sound the pump produces after pickup.
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2016, 12:12:34 pm »
G'day Harry,

Firstly, thanks for producing the video - a movie's worth a million words right?

I've sent it to QiHe and they are looking at it at present and I'm awaiting their comments.

In relation to the 'black paper disk' concept - I think it has potential, however I believe it's effectiveness could be greatly enhanced if you did the following:

* use a rigid substrate - thin plastic or card
* punch a hole in the middle large enough to allow it to be adhered [double sided tape] to the body of the nozzle
* ensure that the disk was maximised for light absorption - eg covered in a velvet or flock material, or at least matt black paint

The reason I say this is because you could actually be increasing the issue due to the uneven faceted nature of the paper you have tested the concept with. Remember that the paper disk itself is now being illuminated by the LEDs in the camera housing. If it were absolutely black [or very close] you could then afford to increase the exposure/light sensitivity of the camera's image sensor. This should allow it to detect the edges better.

The other option is to try a white disk in place of the black one - but again carefully placed to maximise the result.

I'll let you know what QiHe have to say as soon as I hear back from them.

BTW - you'll see this 'disk' technique used by Michael from SmallSMT also - check out the videos on his website.

Peter
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2016, 12:51:46 pm »
Harry,

In initial discussion with QiHe, their response is that the LED light housing and arrangement is very different on the 920, compared with the 802's system.

They are trying to figure out if the new LEDs design can be retrofitted to the existing 802 machines that are out there, and if they will make them available for purchase. In all, it appears that QiHe recognise a change to the LED structure has improvements on component recognition.

From what I gather, the only real difference is the angle of the LED arrays to the component. Something you may be able to 'play' with yourself.

Finally, I think this discussion is better placed in the TVM802 forum Harry, because the machines are obviously very different.

I hope this has assisted you in some way.

BTW - QiHe say they haven't had any reports or requests from you [or others I assume] in relation to this issue. If you are having problems, then try contacting them directly - they are very helpful.
 
The following users thanked this post: cgroen

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2016, 12:54:38 pm »
QiHe have just responded on the LED topic and suggest that it is an easy mod for the user to do themselves - adjusting the LED Array angle.

If I knew how to post an image or video into this post I could send you some pics ???
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 03:53:48 pm by thommo »
 
The following users thanked this post: small

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2016, 10:38:16 pm »
thommo thanks for your response,

today I have measured the troughput of the QiHe vacuum pump.

I used a 30 liter plastic bag filled with air and then measured the time it takes for the pump to get it empty.
The result was 7min 30 s.

This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand  now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
Is the TVM920 using the same pump or an external one ?

The end vacuum looks to be fine, just the troughput is the problem.
I found the cheapest vac pump has already 3m³/h which is 12x the troughput of the QiHe pump.

Yesterday I have placed a couple of boards with many problems of parts moving and jumping around on the nozzle, so I will
buy an external pump and give it a try.

With the 920 you have the advantage of 4 nozzles, so you can always use the best nozzle for each part.
A nozzle changer like smallsmt's would be even better.

I will continue with the other topics in the 802 thread.





 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2016, 10:53:30 am »
Hi Harry,

The 920 relies on a external air supply - [user supplied].

If you are not confident that you are able to 'hold' the component in position after image regognition, then no amount of careful alignment prior to that will solve the problem. It sounds like a productive step to at least try an external supply - BTW there are some small, 10ltr tank 'silent' compressors on the market which I would HIGHLY recommend you try to get hold of. The Rolair model is really good, reliable, and quiet..

As for image recognition, yes it is a difficult task under ANY circumstances, as Uncle Bob has pointed out in the 802 forum space.

I believe QiHe could definitely benefit by improving their algorithm here, or even consider interfacing with the OpenSource code which is available.

Of course, the better and more consistent the lighting [and reflection from the polished surfaces] is, the more likely you are to see better results. Fortunately this is one of the better types of subjects for image recognition as the item is essentially black, or silver [high contrast already - hence the importance of the LED angles being optimized]. Beyond that you just need to define the background for separation .. and  Bingo - Bob's your Uncle!

Peter
 

Offline harry4516

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: de
    • www.dj0abr.de
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2016, 07:44:23 pm »
Hi thommo, you are in contact with QiHe ?

A separate cam-1 threshold setting for each part would help a lot, for the 802 and I am sure also for the 920.
This would allow the optimum setting for the parts.
I.e. I need threshold 6 for standard ICs and 4 for some QFNs and 7 for black SOT23 cases.
I don't know if they are willing to do that, but would be a great improvement for all users.

Harry
 

Offline ar__systems

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 460
  • Country: ca
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2016, 06:42:47 am »

This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand  now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
It is 0.24m^3/h with no pressure to counter. It is even worse in real life, when it needs to create a vacuum.
 

Offline ar__systems

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 460
  • Country: ca
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2016, 06:45:07 am »

This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand  now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
It is 0.24m^3/h with no pressure to counter. It is even worse in real life, when it needs to create a vacuum.
 

Offline thommo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: au
Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2016, 03:02:31 pm »
Hi Harry,

Yes - I am in constant contact with QiHe - mainly just coordinating the logistics at the moment for shipping of our machine.

They have been very responsive to date, so I doubt that the mod you have suggested is going to be an issue to get implemented. I've previously discussed this suggestion with them actually. But I feel I'll hang on now until we receive the machine and I have 'personal experience' with which to discuss any further requirements.

Has your 'vision system' improved any further and have you tried any other mods since last mention? I'm not certain just how 'wide' the lens is on the 802, but in case you haven't tried this yet, do a run with the ambient lights all turned off - at least all those within say 45 degrees of the sky-view of the machine. Don't forget windows also [maybe an evening task]. This will cover off any peripheral flare or other contrast-reducing issues.

Peter

Hi thommo, you are in contact with QiHe ?

A separate cam-1 threshold setting for each part would help a lot, for the 802 and I am sure also for the 920.
This would allow the optimum setting for the parts.
I.e. I need threshold 6 for standard ICs and 4 for some QFNs and 7 for black SOT23 cases.
I don't know if they are willing to do that, but would be a great improvement for all users.

Harry
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf