Pick & Place MachineTVM920

[mrpackethead]

I think I found the cause of my 12/16/24mm feeder problems (parts bouncing around on the tape between peel area and pick area), the tape cover/peeler/slider can lift up slightly, which it does when the tape underneath is pressed up against it. On a real YV100 this cover is tensioned down by a plate in the machine, TVM920 has no such plate, I'll have to 3dprint something or rig up some sort of tensioner

Do you have a real YV100?

[ar__systems]

I think I found the cause of my 12/16/24mm feeder problems (parts bouncing around on the tape between peel area and pick area), the tape cover/peeler/slider can lift up slightly, which it does when the tape underneath is pressed up against it. On a real YV100 this cover is tensioned down by a plate in the machine, TVM920 has no such plate, I'll have to 3dprint something or rig up some sort of tensioner

Could you please show what you did?

I also noticed that some parts tend to bounce. Previously I tried to fix that by lowering pressure, but it is kind of hard to control on my pump.

So after that I did a bit of testing and noticed that if I push down on the part that can slide back and forth (the one that holds the already exposed component in place) bouncing is practically eliminated. So for now I just grabbed a rubber band and wrapped it around the feeder Simple but works. I tried it and helps tremendously. Yesterday I placed a board with 100 of 0603 LEDs what was bouncing like hell, like 40% of times. With the rubber band installed not a single part mispicked.

Another bounce mode that I discovered was during lifting of the component. After the nozzle lowered , and positioned perfectly, when the nozzle is raised on some caps in paper tape that resulted in part lifted in  completely wrong position - at an angle, held by the corner, etc. I traced that to nozlle pushing down too hard during pickup. The problem was of course that I could not raise it any further or it stops picking up from plastic tapes. So now I added another 0.7mm shim to the front feeder block. This way I install all paper tapes on the front and plastic tapes on the back (which is slightly higher).

Also, you guys probably noticed that configuring "nozzle to camera" offsets is huge PITA. And it needs to be done every time you change nozzles... Well yesterday I tried a new contraption that makes this setup step completely fool proof and straightforward. I'll post a pic when I get back to office.

[ar__systems]

Further, I can confirm that v. 1.27 of the software does NOT make a correction when you move parts from the front to the back.  So 0degree rotation is zero from any feeder, back, front, tray.

Right now I'm making a standalone s/w that does P&P file preparation directly from Eagle file, complete with automatic nozzle/speed assignment, rotations, fiducials etc. Well I already have a usable software but I keep adding features.

Another "feature" to keep in mind, is that QIHE only picks up parts on multiple nozzles if they are assigned the same speed. Sometimes it would make sense to lower speed on some parts to take advantage of multiple nozzles. For example, if you have one part at 70% and another at 80%, set them both to 70%, it will make things overall faster.

[MeLa]

@ar__systems,

I am facing the same problems with the bouncing of the components. I have different feeder sizes installed. A little too much pressure results in a catapult effect when the tape is tranported forward. Lowering the pressure results in some feeders not transporting.

So I look forward to some pictures of your "rubber" trick. Thanks in advance.

[ar__systems]

So in the front you can see the alignment help device that I created A USB cam with a piece of glass (plastic, really) on top of it. The glass has a cross-hair scratched on it. Here is how it works:

You lower the nozzle just above the glass so it does not touch it, and verify with the USB camera that it is centered perfectly. You do this for every nozzle and after centering you record the coordinated in a spreadsheet. After you are done with the nozzles, move the head so that downlooking camera looks exactly at the center of the cross-hair. Record coordinates again. From here it should be obvious how to calculate the offsets. That's it! No more annoying adjustments.

Two important things:
1) make sure the cross-hair is on the top side of the glass.
2) The glass should be roughly at the level of the PCB.

The next thing you can see is feeders with rubber bands. I continued to work yesterday and placed another 14.5 panels with 100 of 0603 LEDs each and few passives. No bouncing whatsoever.

And at the far end of the feeder block you can see a white strip - that is the extra shim I installed to lower the front feeders.

[MeLa]

Oké, the rubber is clear. May be it will behave like a break too and so reduce the catapult-effect.

Good suggestion with the additional USB-cam also.

Will try both.

Thanks.

[ar__systems]

Since then I've ran more of the boards, (went on the second side; 460 parts/panel; 15.5 panels) and I've had nearly zero problems with feeders. There were a few jams, but no bouncing. So rubber thing works

Anybody else is using Eagle and runs boards that are coming from Eagle on the machine? Over the last few months I've been working on a tool that generates files that QIHE s/w understands directly from Eagle's .brd and .sch and I find it is way better and reliable than anything. QIHE s/w is a crap to edit your p&p data, since it is so easy to make a mistake there. Other than that, what, Excel? What is your process, guys? Would you like to try my tool? Right now my process is such that starting from Eagle I can spent less than 30 min to prepare a QIHE file that I can actually run (that is, all parts assigned proper feeder and orientation corrected).

One of the big issues that I experienced earlier was inconsistency between how part was oriented in library and how it is oriented on the tape. My tool shows part's footprint, the way it expects to find the part on the tape. I have programmed some of the more common packages to be always oriented a certain way. For example for SOT-23 it makes sure part is oriented so that side with one pin is on the left. So it essentially makes it irrelevant how the part is placed in a library. Instead it looks for pin 1 of the package and makes sure it is in a certain quadrant.  I can quickly go through the list of parts and compare expected orientation against the actual tape.

Also if the part in the library is not placed perfectly symmetrically, it will fix the offset as well.

So several things, each of which is relatively minor, but still very important, and combined together they turn into a hassle. And if you forget about one or the other, then it is even more waste of time to correct things. Just a month ago I was building a batch of 5 prototypes and I found that it was easier and cheaper for me to have a guy sit and do it manually over several hours than for me to go through the hassle of setting up the machine. Today I could probably do it fairly efficiently myself.

[thommo]

Hi AR,

That all sounds really interesting. We're Altium users and are planning to write some translation scripts along similar lines. If there's anything you'd be prepared to share with us in relation to this - method, workflow, scripts, GUI, etc, we'd really appreciate it and will happily share our ideas in return as they're developed.

The shared benefit is clear ... although we're using different software, we're both trying to get to the same place, and on the same machine, with a view to simplifying production and reducing errors.

Please let's know what you think.

Peter

[ar__systems]

Could you export to .brd format? Eagle's board format has very a simple structure, especially if you don't consider all routing data which I just skip anyway. Although that would be another intermediary format for you, something I'm trying avoid for myself....

I also implemented a few other features specific for Eagle. That's why I'm primarily interested in Eagle users at this point. For example, it can send commands to Eagle application directly. I'm using it in two different ways: first, I use to review the resulting bill of material. Clicking on any part in the list makes it send commands to Eagle to highlight the corresponding parts in the schematics. So if I see 91K and 100K in BOM, I can click on those and it will highlight them in schematics. Then I can decide if I could get rid of 91Ks and use 100K only. I basically go through the list and if I see 1 resistor of certain value I locate it on schematics and see if I can get rid of it. It's obviously not something I could not do without my tool, but the whole process is now more streamlined and makes my BOM and CAD files synced. I can change the value in my BOM tool and have it send commands to update data in Eagle.

And second application is for manual assembly. Again, going through the BOM, but this time Eagle's board window is in focus. So now it will highlight all instances of 100K on the board, which makes manual placement so much easier.
 

[thommo]

Hi AR,

Thanks for your response.

I think, for a bunch of obvious reasons,  we'd both prefer to stay 'inside' our chosen software platforms - even though a conversion to Eagle is possible [I believe] it wouldn't be our preferred workflow.

Having said that, the ideas you described in your last comment is of great value so, perhaps, we can just exchange the workflow and functionality. It needn't be in software - just text, or ideally as a flowchart  - both work equally well in this regard. I'm sure you are going to continue considering and developing more great ideas - different to ours, and vice versa.

Good luck with the progress and please keep us all 'posted'!

Pete

[jedas]

I was trying to pick and place quite a big modules (Carambola2 http://www.8devices.com/products/carambola-2). Vision was not able to recognize edges of the module, because it's too big to fit into the camera view. About 10% of the part is missing. I wonder if it would be possible to change lens from 12 mm to 11 mm focal length. Has anyone tried that?

[thommo]

Hi Jedas,

My colleagues and I have indeed experimented with lenses of varying focal lengths.

It really depends on the size of the smallest component you intend placing on the 920. Wider focal length lenses do extend the field-of-view but, they also encounter more barrel distortion, and cause some extra degree of difficulty due to the fact that you are looking down the length of the component, as opposed to directly at it [perpendicular]. And of course reduce the resolution/image size of the smallest components.

The BEST SOLUTION is for us to petition the QiHe guys and have them add a feature that will enable imaging of larger components, like modules, in MULTIPLE IMAGES and have their software stitch the image together [actually the stitching isn't really necessary - it just needs to recognize the extents of the module/component] and coupled with the distance of the camera movement, determine the center position.

Let's know if you're interested [and others] in creating this petition/request of QiHe - we will happily support it.

Cheers - Peter

[jedas]

Thanks Peter for the comments. I haven't thought about the barrel effect. I've opened cover to check how the camera is mounted there. It looks like it could be lowered by adding 0.5-1 cm distancers and adjusting focus. Maybe it would give just enough additional view coverage. I'll post here, if I will be able to achieve positive results.

If that won't work, I would be definitely interested in Qihe adding this feature.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi Jedas,

My colleagues and I have indeed experimented with lenses of varying focal lengths.

It really depends on the size of the smallest component you intend placing on the 920. Wider focal length lenses do extend the field-of-view but, they also encounter more barrel distortion, and cause some extra degree of difficulty due to the fact that you are looking down the length of the component, as opposed to directly at it [perpendicular]. And of course reduce the resolution/image size of the smallest components.

The BEST SOLUTION is for us to petition the QiHe guys and have them add a feature that will enable imaging of larger components, like modules, in MULTIPLE IMAGES and have their software stitch the image together [actually the stitching isn't really necessary - it just needs to recognize the extents of the module/component] and coupled with the distance of the camera movement, determine the center position.

Let's know if you're interested [and others] in creating this petition/request of QiHe - we will happily support it.

Cheers - Peter

You aren't going to be placing lots of large parts, so multiple imaging is the sensible way to do it - you don't want to compromise resolution for smaller parts, and multiple imaging avoids geometric distortion of a wider lens.

[thommo]

QiHe release new version of TVM920 Application

I was speaking with Daisy from QiHe yesterday and she confirmed that they have just released version 1.31 of their application.

Contact them by Skype or email to have them send you a copy. I've not yet loaded it so I can't say anything about its functionality.

I have also asked Daisy to send me a list of Bug Fixes/Changes/New Features contained in this release and expect to receive that info sometime today. I'll post it once I receive it.

Cheers - Peter

[thommo]

Hi all,

This is the best information I could obtain from QiHe.
Regrettably, they don't seem to recognize that a SW/FW release is for ALL users, and not only a response to those how requested the fix/feature initially [this seems to be a fairly common experience with many small Asian manufacturers/suppliers we've dealt with, in that they can't [or won't] step out of their 'own shoes' and into those of their 'customers' every now and then - I don't know how to convey to them just how important this 'step' really is, and how much they would benefit from it].

I tried to get better descriptions of the Initial Request, and how it can be repeated, alas without success.

Hope this helps some of you anyway, and for those who believe they 'recognize' the origin of these fixes/features, it would be great if you could take the time to 'expand & share ' the information on this blog.

Cheers - Peter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2017/06/24 V1.31
1. Fix Multi-PCB results in error

2017/04/25 V1.30
1. Increase the No. 1 nozzle can not be used for the front 27, 28, back 1, 2 feeder.
                           No. 2 nozzle can not be used for the front 28, back 1 feeder.
                           No.3 nozzle can not be used for the front 1, back 28 feeder.
                           No. 2 nozzle can not be used for the front 1, 2, back 27, 28 feeder.
2. The XY axis can not be moved when the Z axis is not zero
3. Corrected three points to determine the English version of the material trays algorithm UI text error
4. The same line can be used to modify the "test" item
5. Corrected the number of times to abandon, and did not alarm

2017/02/23 V1.29
1. Fixed after network reconnection automatically load parameters, the interface and internal parameters inconsistent bug

2017/02/11 V1.28
1. After re-editing, the components completes mark is wrong bug
2. Pick material coordinate order error
3. English version X axis positive limit alarm display error

2017/01/15 V1.27
1. Modify components arrangement failed bug

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

QiHe release new version of TVM920 Application

I was speaking with Daisy from QiHe yesterday and she confirmed that they have just released version 1.31 of their application.

Contact them by Skype or email to have them send you a copy. I've not yet loaded it so I can't say anything about its functionality.

I have also asked Daisy to send me a list of Bug Fixes/Changes/New Features contained in this release and expect to receive that info sometime today. I'll post it once I receive it.

Cheers - Peter

[Smallsmt]

Hi Thommo,

could you please tell me if OpenPNP is now working well with TVM machine?

[mrpackethead]

Hi SmallSMT,

Could you tell me when you will have your machine finished?   If it was me, i'd be concentrating on getting that finished, rather than worrying about what other people are doing.   

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

Well, given we're talking about a SW App designed to run in a Mekatronics environment and, one that is designed as a Framework suitable for many, many targets & purposes, to ever say 'Working Well' would be a miracle I reckon.

It works nonetheless and has been for some time now.
There are several users of the 920 running OpenPnP solution from what I can gather.

For the OpenPnP product to gain more and deeper traction, IMO it would require a well designed GUI - one which is far more context driven so as to remove all the irrelevant 'options' which are available for the other machines. Following this, all 'sub-options' likewise would be filtered for the tier above them also.

Good luck with your project.

Cheers - Peter

Hi Thommo,

could you please tell me if OpenPNP is now working well with TVM machine?

[Smallsmt]

Hi Thomas,

thank you for the detailed reply.

I was thinking about OpenPNP support for our machines.

Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

IMP you'd be wasting your time.

If the App you intend providing is the samw, or similar, to the SmallSMT releases previously, you would be better off paying for a good graphic designer to just cleanup what you've already got, rather than mucking around with OpenPnP.

Your App llooks like it's a really workable solution and well considered already - I would use it in preference to the QiHe app anyday based on the screen shots I've seen to date. In addition, you've already confirmed you'll be opening it up with APIs [a big job] so, if this happens, a User should have all the flexibility they would need.

Good luck - Peter

Hi Thomas,

thank you for the detailed reply.

I was thinking about OpenPNP support for our machines.

Best regards
Michael

[DigitalDeath]

I don't agree, I think that any manufacturer that makes their machine compatible with OpenPNP will have way more customers no matter how good their original software is.

When you buy a machine you're taking the risk of having a manufacturer that doesn't support the machine adequately or that abandons the support or updates for the software once they switch to new models or even the possibility of them going out of business.

If the SmallSMT machine had compatibility with OpenPnP it would make it a really strong option to buy because it seems like their software developer will probably end up with a very good OEM software but having the ability of being able to make the machine work with OpenPnP gives you the peace of mind of being able to solve issues if the manufacturer doesn't do what you need so you're not left out in the cold.

Chinese manufacturers have difficulty understanding that concept because they feel that doing so is admitting that their software is not as good whereas us in the west look at it as an advantage over other machines and that concept doesn't even pass through our minds. It's like a PC, you can always run Linux but you're likely to stay in windows for the convenience so the same hardware and your choice of software. If you make the software really good and people use it instead if the OpenPnP having the option to do so it's a testament that the software OEM is really good and it also shows that the manufacturer is not afraid of competing against an open source solution.

If I were one of the manufacturers I would make my machines compatible immediately with OpenPnP and as a top priority.

One of the strongest reasons I'm leaning toward the TVM to buy it is just because of that potential ability.

[m72]

Hi!

Can anyone check M-vision in manual mode?
I found that measured angle of component is not equal when nozzle at 0 & 360 degrees.
But it is equal when nozzle turned to 0 & 359.78 (360 minus one step 0.22/0.23).

Is it my TVM920 unique?

WBR, Mikhail.

[Sugrob]

Hi guys!
I have TVM802A now I thinking about upgrade. Now I try to chouse between TVM920 from Qihe and CHMT560P4 from Charmtech.

There are not so many information about CHMT560, but based on existing videos, I think software is more stable, but machine a little slower than TVM920. Also builtin PC with embedded linux and small 7inch display is not so usable than external PC with big monitor and keyboard.

So, all looks like TVM920 is better, and faster. BUT!!! I have bad impressions from QiHe software. My TVM802 biggest problem is IC missplacing. Does they solved this problem in TVM920 or it still present.

Also I have a problem with nozzle alignment like @ar__systems. Every time after powerup, I need to calibrate nozzles, especially if I use 0603 chips. As I see, this problem also prsent in TVM920.

Please, guys, share with your impressions about TVM920 and CHMT560/530. There are many requests from other users about it, but still no one full and useful reply.

Thank you!

[jedas]

Having some problems with IC placement too. Most of them are placed ok, but for larger packages, like LQFP64 or so, it's noticeable that part is rotated during lowering it to pcb. Here is a video of extreme case of that:


Customer support has gave me new software, maybe it helped a bit. But sometimes we still notice 1-5 degrees rotation of component during the nozzle drop. It's always the same direction. I've wrote to them again, but maybe some of you have noticed this behavior and has some remedies. My suspicion would be noise induction into servo control lines or something like that.

Thanks for the ideas.