Pick & Place MachineTVM920

[NF6X]

I was just poking around on the QiHi web site. I must say, their corporate headquarters building sure looks impressive. 



http://www.qihekj.com/home.html

[cgroen]

Don't be too harsh on them, its very easy to make mistakes like that and use the wrong picture of your headquarters 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Well, I know some people have left the company recently, so that may explain the Skype situation.

QiHe are not really a 'service or after-sales' driven company unfortunately, and we too are finding it very difficult to get reasonable responses to reasonable questions, in a reasonable time frame of late.

Interesting that a number of alternative, very promising looking machines have been made available lately. We are considering another machine ourselves and are questioning if QiHe is still worth the pain.

This machine in particular caught our eye.

http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html

6 Heads
Ball Screw drive on X axis
64 Slots
7 Cameras - 6 simultaneous, and a separate one for large components
PCB Conveyor
Stand/Cabinet
USD$11,400

I found this one on Aliexpress ($11200 USD including shipping)... and it sure looks similar and/or could be the same one that you referenced with better pictures and English info:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Stability-Visual-Position-Placement-Machine-Pick-Place-Machine-with-64-Feeders-and-Servo-Motor-for/32821254406.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.150.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-21&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3

Also a smaller version too ($7400 USD including shipping):

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-Place-Machine-SMT460-With-Conveyor-0201-BGA-Led-SMD-T-Industrial-Equipments/32832988812.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.163.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-23&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3

Cheers,

Sam

Just looked at the videos & they are the most promising Chinese machines I've seen so far. Sensible Z height (20mm) and proper feeders.
Also a board path that looks like it could handle doing long boards in multiple passes. 
No tool change AFAICS but with 4/6 heads this is probably less of an issue.

Software looks like it might be marginally less sucky than others ( not hard)



Watching the vids the machine behaviour looks fairly sensible, and doesn't seem to be wasting much time.
 e.g. in slow mode it moves quickly to the pick position, unlike Neoden.

There's a playlist of "training" videos - looks like it can mostly speak English, apart from a few dialogs..

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLetn4MpXKByrofSypSCD-bH9AQZ4V_2gz

The SMT460 looks significantly more promising than the Neoden4 in a similar price range

[mikeselectricstuff]

The SMT460 looks significantly more promising than the Neoden4 in a similar price range

Although the Aliexpress listings aren't 100% clear about what feeder types are included, and some listings show free shipping and others over $3K....

[thommo]

The cost of these machines does NOT include any feeders. They all take standard Yamaha CL type feeders however.

The best of these 6 head/7 camera machines I have identified is made by a company called KAYO  http://en.kayosmt.com/

Ask to speak with Jenny Wang and tell her I recommended you.

[thommo]

So, for the cost, it is really difficult to go past a machine like the TVM920 because they are around HALF the cost of those other machines, and not too many users really require a 6 Head machine for small production and protos.

Having said that, we are currently considering replacing ours with a substantially larger 2nd hand Yamaha, [but a several times the cost also], just so we can up our in-house production.


TVM920 FOR SALE

If anyone out there [in Australia - we are based in MELB] is considering getting their hands on an 'as new' TVM920 and is interested in saving some $
then feel free to contact me. Of course the other option is to just keep it as a backup, but it's unlikely that it would see enough use in this role [at least I hope] :-) and would take up valuable space.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The cost of these machines does NOT include any feeders. They all take standard Yamaha CL type feeders however.

The best of these 6 head/7 camera machines I have identified is made by a company called KAYO  http://en.kayosmt.com/

Ask to speak with Jenny Wang and tell her I recommended you.

Best in what way ?

[CaCtus491]

Regarding the Kayo machines, we're currently looking at purchasing one. I'll be going to their Shenzhen factory to inspect their equipment later this month.

Unfortunately this will be our first foray into in-house production, so I'm probably not the best placed to ask the tricky questions...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Regarding the Kayo machines, we're currently looking at purchasing one. I'll be going to their Shenzhen factory to inspect their equipment later this month.

Unfortunately this will be our first foray into in-house production, so I'm probably not the best placed to ask the tricky questions...

Take a really simple board design with you and ask them to show it being set up from scratch

[dtf]

So has anyone spoken with qihe recently, like in the past 2-3 months?

[thommo]

yeah

[dtf]

What's their latest skype contact?

Any software updates? No reply from them since posting about large part angle problems, also looking for vision improvements

[jedas]

I've contacted them by sales email sales3@qihekj.com . Purchased some spare parts. They were quite responsive, provided new SucfaceMountTouch_EN_V1.41Beta1 software. Can't say that it's better, but at least they are working on something.

[KE5FX]

Order form unclear, received Falcon Heavy.  Lawsuit from homeowners association.  Would not buy again.  F---- 

[Reckless]

KE5FX,
  Which company did you order from? 

I'm about to order SMT460 with 44 feeders and conveyor.

[ar__systems]

44 feeders is not enough... Unless you are doing single design. In which case you are better off outsourcing assembly altogether. Remember feeders larger than 8mm take more than one slot. One 12mm will take 3 slots, two 12mm will take 5 etc.

[Reckless]

Thank you, you saved me $10,500.  I'm buying a Universal Instruments model instead.

[thommo]

I guess you’re aware that there is a SMT660 model also (with 60 feeders), and the QiHe TVM920 (with 56 feeders), not to mention the Kayo machines.

I’ve not heard about the company Universal Instruments - do you have a link?

Peter

[IconicPCB]

Tommo  Universal are a huge player in manufacturing equipment.
Originaly in leaded axial and radial taped componet handling and processing as well as in DIP package insertion and later in SMD game.

A huge player pricewise beyond my league.
What i could afford from Universal would not cover current fine pitch technology.

[Reckless]

What do you mean current fine pitch technology?

Used Universal's run around $5-15k.  SMT660 is $12k (SMT880 is $15k).  Both run 0201 components and are 10k cph.  I do have to produce medium volumes (machine runs 8/hrs daily).  I am dying for lights out operation. 

[thommo]

FYI guys - just remember that SMT are not manufacturers - they are agents selling on Aliexpress.

For this reason we suggest Kayo [who are also more expensive] but you speak with the Butcher, not his Block when you deal with them. They have also just released a 8 head machine with 72 Feeder capacity.

In any event, this section of chat began with the suggestion that 44 feeders wouldn't be sufficient. We agree totally with that statement [unless you only ever intend producing a board that only requires 44 slots] :-)

As for 2nd hand machinery - you may be lucky, but remember, it is being sold for a reason.

[Reckless]

Is Kayo the manufacturer for SMT?

[thommo]

No - they are independent and actually make their own [different from SMT] designs. But you need to compare closely as fundamentally they appear the same. Not surprisingly, Kayo say SMT 'copy' their designs, but with some shortcuts [and most probably, if you could speak with the manufacturer directly, SMT would say the same].

We investigated the SMT situation a while back and they swore black and blue that they were the actual manufacturer of the machine - not a distributor or agent, but the manufacturer. When we discovered this wasn't true we immediately lost faith and all interest in dealing with them.

From our limited experience, the closer you can get to the source with CN manufacturers, the more likely the outcome will 'remain' a success, because it's only when thing begin to go wrong that the relationship will be tested. At that point the agent/distributor has already made all the profit they're likely to make from you, whereas the manufacturer has their brand to protect and are most generally keen to receive genuine, positive feedback and suggestions. Just saying.

[thommo]

Reckless,

When making your purchase decision be certain to take into account the actual Feeder type which your machine will use. It's for this reason that these CN machines are attractive because they accept the time-tested Yamaha CL feeder series, which you can buy 'new' in CN for ~$55 per 8mm feeder. I doubt that Universal Instruments machine accept these feeders, so you may be paying up to 4x + for a single 8mm feeder for their machine.

It's not all as straight-forward as it first appears on the surface.

[mrpackethead]

Think Thommos advice is pretty correct for any machinery purchase out of china.