Pick & Place MachineTVM920

[ar__systems]

BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.

Cheers - Peter

I tried it, works ok for larger chips, for anything smaller than SOIC-8 not so great. Pins can go between the plate and the affixed pocket layer.

What's the maximum component height the 920 can handle?

[cgroen]

Thanks a lot thommo for the pictures and explanations, very very nice!
Looking forward to follow your discoveries, good luck with the machine!!

[thommo]

http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html

BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.

Cheers - Peter

I tried it, works ok for larger chips, for anything smaller than SOIC-8 not so great. Pins can go between the plate and the affixed pocket layer.

What's the maximum component height the 920 can handle?

[ar__systems]

They specify Z-travel only which is not the same as max comp height. On TVM802 z-travel is also 15mm but max height is only 5mm.

[zszabo]

OPS, If only 5mm parts can be handled than is not so nice, as this is the weakness of Neoden 4 too. I really hope that can handle 2-3 mm taller parts too.

[IconicPCB]

Isn't component height limited to what ( predominantly ) the feeders can process?

10mm seems to be the limit of M10V feeders but the machine can handle taller components on cut tape .

[protoneer]

I get the feeling it might do a little more than 5mm. From the user manual the software can set the height of the trays and pcb. If the PCB holder is lowered this might work.

Software will still be an issue with no control over the path the part is moved.

On the the TVM802 the prick and the camera is the lowest point on the head preventing taller parts. The TVM920 might not have this issue.

[ar__systems]

I get the feeling it might do a little more than 5mm. From the user manual the software can set the height of the trays and pcb. If the PCB holder is lowered this might work.

TVM802 also allows setting tray heights etc, but it has exactly 5mm clearance from PCB to the lowest part of the block.

[protoneer]

I recently received a copy of the TVM920 User manual and I thought I would share it here.

http://www.protoneer.com/files/TVM920%20manual.pdf

[protoneer]

So, though I have little, to no, interest in becoming a distributor, I would definitely like to promote this Manufacturer and Machine combination if it meets the expectations I currently have for it.

In this regard I think my direction and goals are similar to many others.

The ONE THING that made the difference and my decision easy [for me at least] is it's use of commercial-grade, reliable and easily swap-able component feeders. As you may already know, it uses the Yamaha CL type feeders which have been the backbone of many a PnP machine throughout the world for a long time now. They are pneumatic, so cheap to produce and maintain than electric feeders - the major downside being max feed rate is slower [but still plenty for most requirements.

So ... let's build the numbers guys!

This is a relatively expensive machine [from a hobbyist's point of view], and a very inexpensive machine from a CM's point of view, but I believe it is the sort of solution that is perfect for someone looking to accommodate up to 80+ diff components per load/project - [56x 8mm feeders + 30x tray-type], and needs to runs components no smaller than 0402. Intend to make custom 'trays' for each different project to handle the 1 & 2 off per board components, where the 56 feeders happen to 'run short'.

BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.

Cheers - Peter

Thanks  Peter.

I bought a TVM802 earlier this year and it has been a HUGE help to get my business of the ground. I picked it because it seemed to be the most hack-able machine of the entry level machines.

Since then my requirements have changed and I am looking at getting a second machine. Top of the list is the TVM920 but I need to make sure it will fit...

Questions I have for the people that own TVM920's:

• Does it work similar to the TVM802 where the machine connects to a PC via Ethernet and two USB camera's?
• Does it need an external vacuum pump as well or just a compressed air source
• Does anyone have a photo's of the insides of the machine? (How easy is it to service PC and electronics)
• Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
• How well does the vibration feeder work?(When running the machine are they always on? I take it,its just a normal front/back feeder to the machine cause the software does not mention any special settings for vibration feeders)

@thommo , what stencil printer would you recommend? I have been looking at the QH3040 http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html

[thommo]

Hi @protoneer,

Does it work similar to the TVM802 where the machine connects to a PC via Ethernet and two USB camera's?
Yes - save to say that the PC is mounted into the 920 [MiniITX format] and therefore you'd expect a somewhat more predictable result in line with what the QiHe engineers receive. In the 802 for example I see users claiming very different results from the same version of the SW App.

Only had a quick look and not certain that the cameras are necessarily USB interfaced.


Does it need an external vacuum pump as well or just a compressed air source
The 920 requires an external compressed air source - moderate in capacity.
We are intending to use the small Rolair 10Ltr silent model - ~AUD$400.


Does anyone have a photo's of the insides of the machine? (How easy is it to service PC and electronics)
Super easy to gain access - 1 panel on each side of the lower section of the machine, but I'm hoping not to be 'in there' all that often - but with plenty of space to 'move' if required.


Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
I'm not certain of the origin of the CL naming and design, but for the price they are available, I'd only really consider acquiring 'new' feeders. ~USD$55 8mm size. These follow the Yamaha design.


How well does the vibration feeder work?(When running the machine are they always on? I take it,its just a normal front/back feeder to the machine cause the software does not mention any special settings for vibration feeders)
I ordered one Vib Feeder but haven't put it to use yet.
Your assumption that it is always 'on' is correct - it has no logical interface with component selection.
What I have done is get them to place a Pwr Socket on the Front and Rear panels of the machine to supply the Vibe Feeder to spare those extra cables trailing around the place. I'm certain it could be interfaced into the 'system' if required, but I doubt I'll need to do that.


@thommo , what stencil printer would you recommend? I have been looking at the QH3040
That's the printer I selected also. Can't 'recommend it because I've not used it yet, but build quality looks really good and it seems to be 'fit for purpose'.
Given the situation, it all seemed easier to deal with a 'single source' in QiHe that to order the same [or similar] item independently. Also I figured I'd have some 'comeback' and clout with QiHe than another supplier if required.

Cheers - Peter

[dtf]

Cool, I've also ordered that stencil printer.

QiHE can supply CL feeders with the machine, and I purchased some from them, but also got many more from a different Chinese supplier, i bet they are all the same. Interestingly they are marked 'MADE IN JAPAN' although they are clearly Chinese clones. Purchased 8x2mm 0402, 8x4mm 0603+, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm.

Which vibration feeder did you get?

[protoneer]

Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
I'm not certain of the origin of the CL naming and design, but for the price they are available, I'd only really consider acquiring 'new' feeders. ~AUD$55 8mm size. These follow the Yamaha design.

Thanks Peter.

Did you buy the feeders at that price from QiHE?

@dtf where do you buy your feeders?

[thommo]

Yamaha "Made in Japan" [suburb of Shenzhen] CL feeders.

Ours came from here I believe, though we purchased them from QiHe and they co-ordinated it on ourbehalf.
http://www.diksmt.com/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=3&SortPath=0,1,2,3,

I believe that this is their Taobao site:
https://13825721751.world.taobao.com/category-461492646.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.w4010-133869645.9.6Md6cr&search=y&parentCatId=461492644&parentCatName=YAMAHA+CL%BF%EE%B7%C9%B4%EF&catName=CL%BF%EE8*2++FEEDER#bd

and another supplier:
http://ksunsmt.com/partsview.asp?ID=599

But I sincerely recommend that you acquire them from QiHe if you are considering also buy a machine from them.
One lot of import documentation, they get 'viewed' as an active component of the machine, single handling of 'duty' and 'customs', etc.

[SimonD]

Hi tohmmo,

can you please give us an idea about the cost of machine and parts individually ?
Thanks in advance
Simon

[thommo]

You'll need to negotiate with QiHe directly, but from memory they advertise:

TVM920 with [8] nozzles for USD$7,000
I reckon it's incredibly good value and, most importantly, it 'exists now' ... meaning you can actually 'buy' one and have in in a couple of weeks. I believe that Michael's new SmallSMT machine which he has just announced is expected to be €9.650,00  for the same [~56] feeder count, as one form of comparison.

CL Yamaha style component feeders
8mm for USD$65
12mm for USD$90
12mm for USD$95
24mm for US$250
Vibe Feeder USD$150

Stencil Printer for USD$380

I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.

From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!

Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?

[protoneer]

I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.

From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!

Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?

@thommo , how far are you from running your TVM920? I am keen on getting one but I need to see it working before I hand over the gold...

I was following the N4 machine but I am not so sure about it.(Did you see its insides? Makes me wonder how their code looks...  )

More Questions:

• How reliable does the feeders work?
• Does the TVM920 suffer the same issue with an under powered vacuum pump?
• How smooth is the machine at lower speeds?
• How stable is the current software? Would you run productions boards with it from day one?
• How easy is it to mount boards to be run?
• OpenPNP will need access to the camera's. How are they connected to the PC?

[SimonD]

Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?

Thanks for your quick responce!
I m in research market for a budget machine like this.
This one, looks like one of the best choices at this moment!

[thommo]

@ protoneer,

We're probably at least a week or two off running the machine in all its glory. Currently, we are having frames built on which to place it and the oven. It's something we ought to have done earlier, alas - it was not to be.

I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.

From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!

Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?

@thommo , how far are you from running your TVM920? I am keen on getting one but I need to see it working before I hand over the gold...

I was following the N4 machine but I am not so sure about it.(Did you see its insides? Makes me wonder how their code looks...  )

More Questions:

• How reliable does the feeders work?
• Does the TVM920 suffer the same issue with an under powered vacuum pump?
• How smooth is the machine at lower speeds?
• How stable is the current software? Would you run productions boards with it from day one?
• How easy is it to mount boards to be run?
• OpenPNP will need access to the camera's. How are they connected to the PC?

[IconicPCB]

Does the manufacturer provide a guide on speed of placement ( components per hour)?

[protoneer]

Does the manufacturer provide a guide on speed of placement ( components per hour)?

Online the were saying 7000 without vision and 4000 with.

I don't mind so much about speed. I am more concerned about how repeatable it can place and that it can run with little or no baby sitting.

[dtf]

mine has shipped 

[thommo]

Exciting times!

Congratulations @dtf !!!

How are you planning to support/mount it?
What are you intending to use for the reflow process - do you have an oven of any sort yet?

mine has shipped 

[dtf]

I have some space cleared and a sturdy 15' work table. Feeder and parts storage additionally takes about 6' of wall space. Also ordered T960 oven and their 3040 stencil printer to complete the assembly line. Plus transition automation squeegee.

[IconicPCB]

7000 per hour seems awfully quick...how many heads does it work with?