EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: harry4516 on June 24, 2016, 11:19:28 pm
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I already own a TVM802. To extend the production capabilities I am looking for a second machine which could be the TVM920.
Please everybody who owns a TVM920, or know how well it is working, share your experience.
Harry
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Harry,
Just got my TVM920 a couple days ago. Still working on getting things up and running. Will start posting pics / videos and info as time permits. Unfortunately, I am super busy at the moment, and finding the time to document things is at a premium.
Rob.
TTS Thermaltech
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Hi
Looking at the dimensions on the machine ... they have the first dimension as L997 mm . With the font on this browser and my tired old eyes that came out as 1.997 mm. I spend a bit of time trying to figure out how it could be 2X as long as wide and still be the machine in the pictures ...
Bob
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The TVM920 is no "little" machine.
It is 43.5" wide x 32" deep x 30" tall
Also, take into consideration it weights about 250Lbs without monitor, monitor arm, keyboard, feeders, etc.
The side mounted monitor is not included in the dimensions either, and neither are the feeders which can easily hang out up to 21" on either side of the machine (12mm feeder with 330mm diameter reel installed).
So, all said you are looking at just over 74" (6'2") in depth not taking int consideration that you need access to both front and back to deal with feeders, and load / unload circuit boards.
But if size is not an issue, so far I am very impressed with build quality. The machine work is exceptional. All machined parts are anodized black, and the machine bed is perfectly flat, without any machining marks. They must have machined to tolerance, ground and anodized, or purchased pre-finished stock machine base stock, as it has a beautiful brushed anodized finish.
The cabinet is solid. All electronics are accessed via removable covers on all sides of the machine.
- Built in Atom based PC, PCI based vision input card, and PC power supply on right side.
- Air Manifold for feeders / vacuum heads on front (30) and rear (30)
- Ethernet based control card, closed loop stepper drives, motor / control PSU, and IO board on left side.
All components are mounted on removable back planes, so servicing is going to be relatively easy should a component need replacing.
Manifolds are serviceable, and valve bodies can be removed individually, which is nice, considering I have seen others with bolt together manifolds which you must take completely apart to service a valve in the middle.....
Feeder air manifolds also are controller via separate control boards which appear to be connected to the main Ethernet based controller via serial network. Could be RS485 or CAN. I haven't dug in too deep yet. In any case, each bank of 30 solenoid valves has a separate control board on the serial control loop. In all there are 6 air manifolds, 3 x 10 valves in front, and 3 x 10 valves in back.
Machine also came with white LED lighting in the cabinet, which is a nice touch. It is controlled via a switch on the front panel.
There is a E-Stop button hard wired to drive power supplies. Computer is on separate circuit, so an E-Stop will not kill the computer.
There are also 3 push buttons on the front of the machine to allow for starting / stopping a board, pausing a board, or stepping through the board one component at a time. A nice feature so you don't have to go back to the PC keyboard / mouse every time you want to load and start a new board / panel.
Anyhow, I will try and post some pics later this week when things slow down for the long weekend here in Canada.
Rob@Thermaltech
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Definitely would like to see pics and some videos of this thing in action when you get the time, Rob. Looks like this unit solves the Z-axis travel issue and flaky feeder issues of the NeoDen 4.
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Greetings to all,
I may be among those eagerly waiting for some feedback from Rob (we are using Philips Eclipse now and it's end is lurking around the corner..). In the mean time I'm posting a product folder specifying all original Philips feeders available at some time for GEM machines (and they should be compatible with the TVM920, just look at "GEM" column). It was helpful to me several times when identifying some second hand feeder offers, so I hope It may be helpful to somebody else here...
Cheers
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what happens to the TVM920 ?
It is not more available at Aliexpress.
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Pick and Place Machine QIHE TVM920 High precision Double vision SMD p&p for LED/PCB SMT lighting production assembly line
Price: US $6,500.00 / piece
Sorry, this item is no longer available!
"
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It's not just the TVM920. Most machines by other seller are also removed.
Even some RF board that I wanted to buy from other seller is removed.
Not sure what happen.
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Hi
It still shows up on their web site and it fills up half of the printed literature I got along with my TVM802B earlier this week.
Bob
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Maybe a simple reason the Chinese need to pay a member fee to use Aliexpress and that's not cheap.
Sales in China is not good now so maybe the supplier want to save money.
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Maybe a simple reason the Chinese need to pay a member fee to use Aliexpress and that's not cheap.
Sales in China is not good now so maybe the supplier want to save money.
Hi
The company listings are still up and running. Unless I'm missing something that implies they still are current on their payments.
Bob
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Just found that Aliexpress has changed their requirement as a seller.
They need to be a company to sell electronics item now (you know the red badge thingy).
So, all this while they are individual seller for their companies (hence many sellers representing the same company).
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Just found that Aliexpress has changed their requirement as a seller.
They need to be a company to sell electronics item now (you know the red badge thingy).
So, all this while they are individual seller for their companies (hence many sellers representing the same company).
Hi
Based on the transaction process on my TVM802B ... it was not an individual seller. The whole thing went through the company first and then was finalized on Alibaba.
Bob
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https://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?_ksTS=1468467167113_331&spm=a21bp.7806943.20151106.1&_input_charset=utf-8&navigator=all&json=on&q=TVM920&callback=__jsonp_cb&cna=ShKvDz0uo28CAbrLBSzQ%2FPF5&abtest=_AB-LR517-LR854-LR895-PR517-PR854-PV895_2462
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https://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?_ksTS=1468467167113_331&spm=a21bp.7806943.20151106.1&_input_charset=utf-8&navigator=all&json=on&q=TVM920&callback=__jsonp_cb&cna=ShKvDz0uo28CAbrLBSzQ%2FPF5&abtest=_AB-LR517-LR854-LR895-PR517-PR854-PV895_2462
sorry, but my Chinese is a little rusty :-)
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Hi
Google translate is your friend :)
Looks like the TVM920 is back up for sale. Selling for just under $6,000 US at this moment's exchange rate.
Bob
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It was never gone from taobao in the first place.
It may have been answered before, but can anyone explain the rather large difference in price between taobao and Ali? Not to mention that there are two vastly different prices ($ 6500 vs $ 7200) on Ali.
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It was never gone from taobao in the first place.
It may have been answered before, but can anyone explain the rather large difference in price between taobao and Ali? Not to mention that there are two vastly different prices ($ 6500 vs $ 7200) on Ali.
Hi
Taobao = internal China price, you are unlikely to get it cheaper.
Ali = price with some room for negotiation and fancy packing.
Bob
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a question to "mrpackethead" regarding reel changing in the TVM920 (I didn't want to hijack the neoden4 thread).
As an example, with the TVM802 I need about 3 to 5 minutes to change a reel (depends if the reel is new or not).
Its more like inserting a film in an old 8mm movie projector, a really tricky job.
For my last board I changed 20 reels, you can imaging how long that takes, some hours.
How is this compared with the TVM 920 ?
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FROM PICK & PLACE - OVERVIEW
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/desktop-pick-and-place-overview/75/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/desktop-pick-and-place-overview/75/)
G'day Harry,
Yes - in its current release there is provision for up to 10 different Tray profiles/components.
We're actually in discussion with the QiHe engineering guys at present with a view to increasing this qty [substantially], and they seem really open and co-operative - which is a great and positive sign!
The only other limit is the area remaining, after the bare PCB space is subtracted. So, pretty much the entire machine platform [inside the transport system constraints].
Hope this info assists and is helpful. We'll will report the outcome of these discussions once confirmed.
Peter
Once robert got past his intial problems with the machine.. ( bit of buggy code ) hes finding that it runs just fine.
do you know if the TVM920 has space for custom trays ? There are so little pictures in the internet. Some close views would be great.
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@ttsthermaltech
Thanks a lot for your detailed description of your new TVM920 machine, and especially the quality of the mechanics side. Seems to be a good unit.
I'm myself considering purchasing one, and we are hesitating because of the "East origin" presumed risk...
Could you tell us me/us more about the software that's delivered with the machine.
Are you satisfied with it ? Is it correctly translated and fully functional? Any frustrations ?
Also another question; does the TVM920 has an S-Curve deceleration available on the Z-Axis to cope with very small and sensitive parts? (in fact, does it allow for separate parameters to be set on the X/Y and Z positionning speeds?)
Many thanks for your reply. Marc/Paris
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I am also thinking about purchasing the 920.
But if I look at the few pictures or videos I can see that the 920
does not have any PCB holder.
Instead the PCB is mounted with some funny pins and screws,
like in the Neoden4 or the Chinese stencil printers.
I have written to qihe because I will not purchase a $10k machine and then manufacture the PCB holder by myself.
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I am also thinking about purchasing the 920.
But if I look at the few pictures or videos I can see that the 920
does not have any PCB holder.
Instead the PCB is mounted with some funny pins and screws,
like in the Neoden4 or the Chinese stencil printers.
I have written to qihe because I will not purchase a $10k machine and then manufacture the PCB holder by myself.
This is something definitely good to know about. A bad designed PCB holder can be a nightmare, no matter for good is the P&P machine itself
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I don't have an experience of Pick & Place Machine TVM920 but from some of the review i would say it operate more fluently and pick and place more accurately but additional cost may be required.
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I don't have an experience of Pick & Place Machine TVM920 ...
thats the problem, it is currently almost impossible to get reliable information about the TVM920,
not even a video on youtube which is very strange.
There are a few videos on the chinese tube channel, one of them show a pcb with two resistors totally out of center and all ICs rotated by a few deg.
When I complained this at qihe they told me that the machine was not ajusted correctly and sent me a new video with perfect placement.
Currently I am not sure if the TVM920 is any better then the TVM802, except the feeders.
On the other hand, the 802 has a very nice PCB holder, the 920 does not have that.
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I would like also to see a TVM920 at work. As you already know I am looking also for a small unit for the proto jobs.
Is anyboy here that has a TVM920 and want to do the great presentation job that was done for the TVM802 ?
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I would like also to see a TVM920 at work. As you already know I am looking also for a small unit for the proto jobs.
Is anyboy here that has a TVM920 and want to do the great presentation job that was done for the TVM802 ?
Same here, would really love to see more of the 920 !!
(looking at the Neoden 4 and the TVM920, the 920 is on the top of the list because of the feeders, but need to see some "real world" footage of it ;) )
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Hi All,
I see there are some who owe the TVM920 already for some time.
Im looking to buy one too.
My question is if the machine owners are still satisfied and can use they machine even for 0402 and fine pitch ? The software is OK ? Everything goes smooth with this machine ?
Thank You in advance !
Zoltan
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I don't think it will handle 0402.
For 0402 you need a professional machine and a constant room temperature in your workshop.
Aluminium changes its length 0,24mm for 10 degC and 1m total size. This is too much for a reliable placement of 0402.
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I don't think it will handle 0402.
For 0402 you need a professional machine and a constant room temperature in your workshop.
Aluminium changes its length 0,24mm for 10 degC and 1m total size. This is too much for a reliable placement of 0402.
If the software is smart enough and can use 3 fiducials, this shouldn't be a problem to compensate. Also, I don't think that 0.5m + long boards with 0402 parts are the usual things people assemble with such machines
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Guys - my machine [TVM920] should ship sometime around mid next week. Once I get things 'settled' I will post some images, video and provide some feedback for you all.
Yes - I expect that it does/and will handle 0402 components - it 'needs' to for our use case.
AFA as 10 degree swings are concerned - even I can't handle those conditions! This machine will be in an AC environment [along with all the other bigger machines that people seem compelled to compare these (relatively) inexpensive machines to].
Thanks - Peter
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Hi Thommo,
From where did You bought ? I mean TVM920 from QIHe or the same machine SMT560 Wenzhou Yingxing Ipmort And Export Co.,ltd ?
Did You bought any feeder ?
How much did You payed for it ? Did You payed all in advance ?
Thank You !
Zoltan
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G'day Zolton,
We purchased our machine from QiHe directly.
Yes - we have also ordered Feeders, and QiHe will also supply these too.
In total we ordered approx 70 Feeders, including [approx] 15 for 0402 size components, as well as a 3-tube Vibration Feeder.
Asia, as you may know, is very sensitive in relation to things like 'price'. We paid very close to what they are asking for it, but we did purchase a large Feeder package, Stencil Printer, and some other items, so they were prepared to negotiate a little on this with us - in the end we were satisfied with our offer.
I think the mistake that we ALL make is to try and screw our Asian friends down in price to the point where they can move no further. And THEN, complain when we are not delivered a World Quality and Performance piece of equipment. We would not accept this from our customers, however it appears to be fair game for Asian suppliers and I believe it's entirely the wrong approach.
I must say that these guys have been extremely helpful to deal with and fully prepared to co-operate with any of our unique requirements.
The proof will of course be in the pudding, however we've seen generally very good reports from customers who purchased their other machines, with the largest issues seemingly being 'component feed' related - all issues which we believe the 920's Yamaha feeders will resolve.
The 920 software App is certainly not the greatest, but it is very capable of delivering the required workflow IMO.
Their latest mods to the machine and Application will accommodate 56x 8mm Feeders and unique 30x Tray Comp[onent IDs - approx 86 variants in total, so a very capable machine all in all.
Good luck, and don't hesitate to contact them directly. I have included Daisy' Skype address in a previous post. She is our representative and interface to the company.
BTW - I'd really appreciate the kudos if you were to mention that 'Peter from Melbourne Australia' recommended you contact them :-)
Pete
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Thank You Peter, Im already in contact with Daisy, just I see very slow communication, as it looks they dont want to sell the machine to me :)
Just now I mention about You, hopefully that will speed up things :)
All the best !
Zoltan
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it will be very interesting to see the first results from Peter.
The biggest problem of the little brother, the TVM802, is not the accuracy of the stepper or mechanics, these are quite well.
The problem is the vision accuracy of the camera detecting the IC surroundings.
After half a year and tons of boards I still have not found a setting that gives reliable results for ICs.
About 50% of my boards need manual correction before soldering. This is not a problem, but would be nicer if the parts are placed accurately by the machine.
I will make a video showing the difficulties in daily work with the machine.
Lets see how the TVM920 is doing this job.
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Harry 4516,
If you are able to take some pics and/or video for me that illustrates this problem [along with the results], I'll raise it with QiHe. The sooner the better [while I have some leverage].
I assume it is not an issue with either the quality of the camera or lens, nor the positioning of the component over the camera for imaging, rather it seems you are describing an issue with edge/feature detection of components - in particular ICs.
If this assumption is correct, can you please tell me what you believe is the biggest contributor to the poor outcome?
eg:
exposure
contrast
lighting
algorithm
Or could it be subsequent movement of the component [because ICs are larger and have greater mass] over the path to its destination on the board? Have you tried a very slow transition from visual recognition to board placement, and if so, do you still get the same result?
Does your software application show on screen what the detection result is? And if so, is this the stage where you have determined there is an issue, or not until after that when it is placed onto the pads of the board?
Do other users also have this issue, and has it been reported?
Please let's know and I'll see what I can get done about it.
Peter
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Peter, I will do a couple of boards during the next days and will have the cam running.
The mechanical positioning is very accurate, I never had a problem with loosing steps or similar.
There are mainly two problems:
for small parts (mainly SOT23 and similar) sucktion is not good enough. The parts can move or even jump or flip on the nozzle while traveling. I.e. I run SOT23s with 20% only, that works in most cases.
The second problem is the edge detection of ICs with the camera. Some ICs are fine, but other are really worse. Currently I have this one: CSD97376 in SON case.
The misplacement is almost 1mm. The green line on the cam picture shows this misdetection clearly. Whatever exposure is set, it does not get better. This case has very smal pads, so the cam should detect the complete case not just the pads. Unfortunately most IC cases are black which gives no contrast. While I am writing this I got the idea to place a piece of white paper on the nozzle to give the cam a better contrast against the black IC cases, will try that tomorrow.
With simple SO16 cases is a rotation problem, this was also reported in another German forum.
And QFN (0,5mm pitch) are sometimes placed very precise, next time with 0,2 to 0,5mm misplacement.
I am not annoyed about it. The correction under the microscope takes me 20 seconds and I can solder the board.
Anyway, it would be nicer without the need for manual correction.
Will take a video until next week.
Harry
(for the people reading this for the first time: I am talking about the TVM802, not the TVM920 which may be different or not, we don't currently know).
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Harry I find speeds 50% and below not usable at all, because vibration increases at lower speed. I can place 0603 at 90% with nearly 100% perfect placement. And get yourself external vac :)
There are 3 tubes going up - two clear tubes for vac and one black for positive pressure. So disconnect the two clear tubes from their pumps and connect two clear tubes and external vac source with a T connector. Not only external pump is better, but since I can place it in the other room it is a lot less annoying than the built-in pump :) The machine then runs quietly.
I don't have any problems with SOT-23.
in the last few month I spent some time to redesign the native feeder block and the stripping mechanism. In two weeks I'm going to get the last remaining parts for my feeder block. Hopefully that will provide an improvement.
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In relation to suction and holding power, the TVM920 is different to the TVM802 machines [I believe] - not the least because it requires an independent, external air supply.
Not detecting an ICs pins, or balls, is definitely an issue that I am hoping we do not suffer.
Some still pictures, together with some video, will be a very good start to resolving your problems though. As I have said in previous posts, we have found the QiHe team very good to work with and they are seriously keen to improve. They also welcome feedback - and obviously, the better this feedback is presented to them, the more likely they are to comprehend the issue at hand, and we all are to get a result.
;)
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I played a bit with QFN detection and made a video:
https://youtu.be/D_OvZhSjXTo
TQFP works much (!) better, maybe because the "edges" of TQFP are the pins with very good contrast.
QFNs without pins are much harder for detection.
@ar__systems: thanks a lot for describing the VAC tubes. This is an improvement I will definitively do next week.
The built-in pump looks to be a membrane pump. Is it better to buy a piston pump to get a very deep vacuum ?
EDIT:
I had some false detects caused by the black paper shield. There is an almost invisible edge of this paper and
cam-1 sometimes detects that instead of the part. This could be solved with the threshold setting, but I did not find a setting
which works for all parts.
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Harry, the main limitation of the built-in pump is not insufficient vacuum, but limited throughput. It takes time to swallow the air from the tubing immediately after pick up. You can notice this by changes in the sound the pump produces after pickup.
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G'day Harry,
Firstly, thanks for producing the video - a movie's worth a million words right?
I've sent it to QiHe and they are looking at it at present and I'm awaiting their comments.
In relation to the 'black paper disk' concept - I think it has potential, however I believe it's effectiveness could be greatly enhanced if you did the following:
* use a rigid substrate - thin plastic or card
* punch a hole in the middle large enough to allow it to be adhered [double sided tape] to the body of the nozzle
* ensure that the disk was maximised for light absorption - eg covered in a velvet or flock material, or at least matt black paint
The reason I say this is because you could actually be increasing the issue due to the uneven faceted nature of the paper you have tested the concept with. Remember that the paper disk itself is now being illuminated by the LEDs in the camera housing. If it were absolutely black [or very close] you could then afford to increase the exposure/light sensitivity of the camera's image sensor. This should allow it to detect the edges better.
The other option is to try a white disk in place of the black one - but again carefully placed to maximise the result.
I'll let you know what QiHe have to say as soon as I hear back from them.
BTW - you'll see this 'disk' technique used by Michael from SmallSMT also - check out the videos on his website.
Peter
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Harry,
In initial discussion with QiHe, their response is that the LED light housing and arrangement is very different on the 920, compared with the 802's system.
They are trying to figure out if the new LEDs design can be retrofitted to the existing 802 machines that are out there, and if they will make them available for purchase. In all, it appears that QiHe recognise a change to the LED structure has improvements on component recognition.
From what I gather, the only real difference is the angle of the LED arrays to the component. Something you may be able to 'play' with yourself.
Finally, I think this discussion is better placed in the TVM802 forum Harry, because the machines are obviously very different.
I hope this has assisted you in some way.
BTW - QiHe say they haven't had any reports or requests from you [or others I assume] in relation to this issue. If you are having problems, then try contacting them directly - they are very helpful.
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QiHe have just responded on the LED topic and suggest that it is an easy mod for the user to do themselves - adjusting the LED Array angle.
If I knew how to post an image or video into this post I could send you some pics ???
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thommo thanks for your response,
today I have measured the troughput of the QiHe vacuum pump.
I used a 30 liter plastic bag filled with air and then measured the time it takes for the pump to get it empty.
The result was 7min 30 s.
This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
Is the TVM920 using the same pump or an external one ?
The end vacuum looks to be fine, just the troughput is the problem.
I found the cheapest vac pump has already 3m³/h which is 12x the troughput of the QiHe pump.
Yesterday I have placed a couple of boards with many problems of parts moving and jumping around on the nozzle, so I will
buy an external pump and give it a try.
With the 920 you have the advantage of 4 nozzles, so you can always use the best nozzle for each part.
A nozzle changer like smallsmt's would be even better.
I will continue with the other topics in the 802 thread.
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Hi Harry,
The 920 relies on a external air supply - [user supplied].
If you are not confident that you are able to 'hold' the component in position after image regognition, then no amount of careful alignment prior to that will solve the problem. It sounds like a productive step to at least try an external supply - BTW there are some small, 10ltr tank 'silent' compressors on the market which I would HIGHLY recommend you try to get hold of. The Rolair model is really good, reliable, and quiet..
As for image recognition, yes it is a difficult task under ANY circumstances, as Uncle Bob has pointed out in the 802 forum space.
I believe QiHe could definitely benefit by improving their algorithm here, or even consider interfacing with the OpenSource code which is available.
Of course, the better and more consistent the lighting [and reflection from the polished surfaces] is, the more likely you are to see better results. Fortunately this is one of the better types of subjects for image recognition as the item is essentially black, or silver [high contrast already - hence the importance of the LED angles being optimized]. Beyond that you just need to define the background for separation .. and Bingo - Bob's your Uncle!
Peter
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Hi thommo, you are in contact with QiHe ?
A separate cam-1 threshold setting for each part would help a lot, for the 802 and I am sure also for the 920.
This would allow the optimum setting for the parts.
I.e. I need threshold 6 for standard ICs and 4 for some QFNs and 7 for black SOT23 cases.
I don't know if they are willing to do that, but would be a great improvement for all users.
Harry
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This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
It is 0.24m^3/h with no pressure to counter. It is even worse in real life, when it needs to create a vacuum.
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This is 30 liters in 450 s which is 240 l/h or 0,24m³/h.
This is a really low value and I understand now why ar__system replaced it with an external pump.
It is 0.24m^3/h with no pressure to counter. It is even worse in real life, when it needs to create a vacuum.
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Hi Harry,
Yes - I am in constant contact with QiHe - mainly just coordinating the logistics at the moment for shipping of our machine.
They have been very responsive to date, so I doubt that the mod you have suggested is going to be an issue to get implemented. I've previously discussed this suggestion with them actually. But I feel I'll hang on now until we receive the machine and I have 'personal experience' with which to discuss any further requirements.
Has your 'vision system' improved any further and have you tried any other mods since last mention? I'm not certain just how 'wide' the lens is on the 802, but in case you haven't tried this yet, do a run with the ambient lights all turned off - at least all those within say 45 degrees of the sky-view of the machine. Don't forget windows also [maybe an evening task]. This will cover off any peripheral flare or other contrast-reducing issues.
Peter
Hi thommo, you are in contact with QiHe ?
A separate cam-1 threshold setting for each part would help a lot, for the 802 and I am sure also for the 920.
This would allow the optimum setting for the parts.
I.e. I need threshold 6 for standard ICs and 4 for some QFNs and 7 for black SOT23 cases.
I don't know if they are willing to do that, but would be a great improvement for all users.
Harry
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Is there a part number or rating printed on the current vacuum pump, which i assume is a venturi type?
Is there also a vacuum reservoir, pressure gauge, check valve etc? ie. could the venturi simply be swapped out with a larger one?
Does a pick and place really need a large volume of vacuum? And in this vacuum flow test what was the pressure and CFM rating of the compressor you used to power the venturi?
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It is not venturi type.
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ah, that's weird, why does QiHE specify such a large air supply is needed?
Is it a small electric aquarium style pump?
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Hi DTF,
I think this forum is at mixed causes once again.
The discussion you are referring to is with regard the TVM802 model - which I understand does not require an external supply. I assume you are in fact referring to the TVM920 model [which does].
Peter
ah, that's weird, why does QiHE specify such a large air supply is needed?
Is it a small electric aquarium style pump?
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I am talking about TVM920 (as the thread title) which requires an external compressed air supply of 95L/min @100psi according to QiHE, which is used for the feeders of course, and what i assumed is a venturi vac pump
so all the vacuum pump talk was about the older machine and not TVM920?
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Yes - I believe so.
This forum knows of only one 920 machine 'in the wild' so far, and our is on its way this coming Monday.
Harry owns a TVM802 machine.
Hope this clears things up.
Peter
I am talking about TVM920 (as the thread title) which requires an external compressed air supply of 95L/min @100psi according to QiHE, which is used for the feeders of course, and what i assumed is a venturi vac pump
so all the vacuum pump talk was about the older machine and not TVM920?
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Good stuff. Mine is on the way too :)
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two 920's on its way to Canada, great !
Lets see if the 920 uses a venturi type pump or the tvm820's aquarium style pump.
I am very curious to know how strongly the parts adhere on the nozzles.
The other thing I like to know is how easy or hard it is to mount a board in the TVM920.
With the 802 its very easy, this is one thing I missed with the 920 (from what I have seen in the few videos).
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Harry,
Your video shows a machine with cut tape feeders and loose component bin feeders.
Are these feeders part of machine frame or are they removable?
If removable are they part of machine offering or did You purchase them separately?
If bought separately, where from and how much did they cost?
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these feeders are homemade.
I have a mill and made these parts from aluminium. Mounted with 3 screws to the 802, so I can replace
it if other feeders are required.
The cut tape feeders are most important, there are so many parts I purchase in small quantities only.
The loose part bins are mainly for microcontrollers and other bigger parts.
Last week I did 25 boards with 58 different components, the left and back stack of the 802 was fully equipped and the other parts in the cut tape feeders.
Lets see how the 920 can handle these kind of things.
I was very close to purchase a 920. What makes me unsure is the housing, this would be the first thing to be removed, there are too many things to do in the machine and the housing is just in the way. The other thing is the PCB-holder, or the not existing pcb holder. This is very well done with the 802 and I miss it in the 920.
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Harry,
Very nice.
I too am looking for fixed feeders for my machine.
I made some cut tape feeders from a 6 mm thick phenolic board. The kind of material switch boards are mounted on.
I make milled printed circuit boards and unfortunately the milling machine can not handle aluminium ( it runs an Alfred Jaeger 100KRPM spindle).
The feeders worked out OK... but it turns out double sided tape on an aluminum plate is better at handling paper tape which has been rolled up.
Rolled up tape tends to buckle upwards unless the edges are held down along the entire length of the tape. Double sided adhesive tape therefore performs better in this regard.
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...
Rolled up tape tends to buckle upwards unless the edges are held down along the entire length of the tape. Double sided adhesive tape therefore performs better in this regard.
and plastic tape is even worse. If the cover tape is remove just touch it gently and all parts will jump in all directions.
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QiHE has sent me pix as they assemble and test my machine, they said it should ship this week.
(http://i.imgur.com/Q793ByC.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Wr3PASX.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/w0XROQl.png)
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QiHE said it will ship today... these images are boring so I will just link them.
http://i.imgur.com/2EFrjgt.jpg?1 (http://i.imgur.com/2EFrjgt.jpg?1)
http://i.imgur.com/YrVNW7v.jpg?1 (http://i.imgur.com/YrVNW7v.jpg?1)
http://i.imgur.com/2gq6y6B.jpg?1 (http://i.imgur.com/2gq6y6B.jpg?1)
I also got their 'high precision' stencil printer and T960 oven to try out.
edit: they want $336 more in shipping :( and shipping will be later next week due to another long holiday.
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Hi Gus,
Anyone receive already a machine ?
Can share please first impression ? and second....
Thanks in advance.
Zoltan
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Ours arrives today guys [in about 2hrs actually if things go to plan] - I will let you all know once we've got it set up and evaluated things
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Hi Peter,
Things goes out of planes ? I dont want to push You, just Im very courious. In next days I would have to arrange the payment for mine, and your experience could influence a lot.
If You have few "free" minutes could You share some impresion/images about Your machine ?
Thanks so much !
Zoltan
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Hi Zoltan,
I wrote a rather detailed response, then captured some images, and proceeded to delete what I had written. Dumb!
TVM920 - initial impressions
I am very impressed by the build quality.
So far, all that we have had time to do is unpack the shipment and check the contents.
It certainly looks like a very well build and finished machine and at this point, I would have no hesitation in recommending this to anyone considering it.
This is a substantial machine and it appears that QiHe have learned a lot in their years of manufacturing the smaller versions of the PnP machines. It certainly appears 'fit for purpose'.
I will provide more information as we progress to set-up.
For now, it remains my opinion that it is the best machine I am aware of in this sector of the marketplace.
I can recommend that you contact a salesperson called Daisy who was incredibly helpful and knowledgeable during our pre-sales process.
Please mention my name - 'Peter from Melbourne Australia' and that I recommended QiHe and to speak with her.
Skype address for Daisy is: daisyqiu1994
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REFLOW OVEN - Torch R350
Though not strictly part of this 920 forum page, I thought I'd include some basic information about the Reflow Oven we purchased to compliment the TVM920.
It is from a company called Torch based in Beijing. The heating design is a combination of dark IR [pre-soak] and dispersed Convection [reflow] and, from memory, it has about 12 controllable zones. My comments regarding initial reaction, build, and unpacking apply equally to this oven as they did to the TVM920 [which I'm very happy to be able to say].
The contact at Torch has been a person called Sara, and I dealt with her throughout the pre-sales process.
Her English is perhaps not as 'deep' as Daisy's [from QiHe] but we managed to get the order completed.
This item too is no toy, and is very solid in construction, and certainly appears 'fit for purpose'.
Skype address for Sara is: sara_h632
Again, please mention my name - 'Peter from Melbourne Australia' when and if you contact her.
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Looking good thommo :D
Any pics with human for scale?
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Well - not so far DTF
No selfies allowed in this forum apparently :-)
TVM920 is 1,100 wide, 900 deep and 750 high
R350 [reflow oven] is 1,500 long and 750 deep
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Going to be a bit bigger, too, with feeders hanging off of it :)
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Thank You so much Peter ! Looks good, You are so prepared as You may became a distributor :)
Please continue with updates on next steps, Im really courious how it works all together.
All the best !
Zoltan
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Put simply guys, I was looking for a Manufacturer and Machine that would
1) fit my requirements
2) fit those which I anticipated of many others
3) generate a solid user-base around which practical and useful info would freely flow
4) provide a sufficiently large user-base so that 'adaptation' could potentially happen for things such as an 'independent SW Application' [or preferably adopt OpenPnP and it's 'vision' counterpart]. Having made this last point, I truly believe that QiHe will continue to listen to its users and respond in tempo - a hugely great benefit for any potential buyer.
So, though I have little, to no, interest in becoming a distributor, I would definitely like to promote this Manufacturer and Machine combination if it meets the expectations I currently have for it.
In this regard I think my direction and goals are similar to many others.
The ONE THING that made the difference and my decision easy [for me at least] is it's use of commercial-grade, reliable and easily swap-able component feeders. As you may already know, it uses the Yamaha CL type feeders which have been the backbone of many a PnP machine throughout the world for a long time now. They are pneumatic, so cheap to produce and maintain than electric feeders - the major downside being max feed rate is slower [but still plenty for most requirements.
So ... let's build the numbers guys!
This is a relatively expensive machine [from a hobbyist's point of view], and a very inexpensive machine from a CM's point of view, but I believe it is the sort of solution that is perfect for someone looking to accommodate up to 80+ diff components per load/project - [56x 8mm feeders + 30x tray-type], and needs to runs components no smaller than 0402. Intend to make custom 'trays' for each different project to handle the 1 & 2 off per board components, where the 56 feeders happen to 'run short'.
BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.
Cheers - Peter
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Thank You Peter, You are Great Guy ! Im so sorry that You are so far - dont think any scary about :)
Hope that we can build here the team of users and share experience and solution regarding our machines.
Have a nice day and good luck to the machine !
Zoltan
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BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.
Cheers - Peter
I tried it, works ok for larger chips, for anything smaller than SOIC-8 not so great. Pins can go between the plate and the affixed pocket layer.
What's the maximum component height the 920 can handle?
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Thanks a lot thommo for the pictures and explanations, very very nice!
Looking forward to follow your discoveries, good luck with the machine!!
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http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html (http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html)
BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.
Cheers - Peter
I tried it, works ok for larger chips, for anything smaller than SOIC-8 not so great. Pins can go between the plate and the affixed pocket layer.
What's the maximum component height the 920 can handle?
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They specify Z-travel only which is not the same as max comp height. On TVM802 z-travel is also 15mm but max height is only 5mm.
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OPS, If only 5mm parts can be handled than is not so nice, as this is the weakness of Neoden 4 too. I really hope that can handle 2-3 mm taller parts too.
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Isn't component height limited to what ( predominantly ) the feeders can process?
10mm seems to be the limit of M10V feeders but the machine can handle taller components on cut tape .
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I get the feeling it might do a little more than 5mm. From the user manual the software can set the height of the trays and pcb. If the PCB holder is lowered this might work.
Software will still be an issue with no control over the path the part is moved.
On the the TVM802 the prick and the camera is the lowest point on the head preventing taller parts. The TVM920 might not have this issue.
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I get the feeling it might do a little more than 5mm. From the user manual the software can set the height of the trays and pcb. If the PCB holder is lowered this might work.
TVM802 also allows setting tray heights etc, but it has exactly 5mm clearance from PCB to the lowest part of the block.
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I recently received a copy of the TVM920 User manual and I thought I would share it here.
http://www.protoneer.com/files/TVM920%20manual.pdf (http://www.protoneer.com/files/TVM920%20manual.pdf)
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So, though I have little, to no, interest in becoming a distributor, I would definitely like to promote this Manufacturer and Machine combination if it meets the expectations I currently have for it.
In this regard I think my direction and goals are similar to many others.
The ONE THING that made the difference and my decision easy [for me at least] is it's use of commercial-grade, reliable and easily swap-able component feeders. As you may already know, it uses the Yamaha CL type feeders which have been the backbone of many a PnP machine throughout the world for a long time now. They are pneumatic, so cheap to produce and maintain than electric feeders - the major downside being max feed rate is slower [but still plenty for most requirements.
So ... let's build the numbers guys!
This is a relatively expensive machine [from a hobbyist's point of view], and a very inexpensive machine from a CM's point of view, but I believe it is the sort of solution that is perfect for someone looking to accommodate up to 80+ diff components per load/project - [56x 8mm feeders + 30x tray-type], and needs to runs components no smaller than 0402. Intend to make custom 'trays' for each different project to handle the 1 & 2 off per board components, where the 56 feeders happen to 'run short'.
BTW - though I've not yet tried it, my design thinking here is to laminate some approx 3mm thick non-EDS material with double-sided adhesive, laser-cut the pockets in it to suit, then adhere it to a 6mm Aluminium plate. Quick, flexible and relatively easy solution to increase the max component-type count.
Cheers - Peter
Thanks Peter.
I bought a TVM802 earlier this year and it has been a HUGE help to get my business of the ground. I picked it because it seemed to be the most hack-able machine of the entry level machines.
Since then my requirements have changed and I am looking at getting a second machine. Top of the list is the TVM920 but I need to make sure it will fit...
Questions I have for the people that own TVM920's:
- Does it work similar to the TVM802 where the machine connects to a PC via Ethernet and two USB camera's?
- Does it need an external vacuum pump as well or just a compressed air source
- Does anyone have a photo's of the insides of the machine? (How easy is it to service PC and electronics)
- Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
- How well does the vibration feeder work?(When running the machine are they always on? I take it,its just a normal front/back feeder to the machine cause the software does not mention any special settings for vibration feeders)
@thommo , what stencil printer would you recommend? I have been looking at the QH3040 http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html (http://www.qihekj.com/enproduct/Benchtop/46.html)
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Hi @protoneer,
Does it work similar to the TVM802 where the machine connects to a PC via Ethernet and two USB camera's?
Yes - save to say that the PC is mounted into the 920 [MiniITX format] and therefore you'd expect a somewhat more predictable result in line with what the QiHe engineers receive. In the 802 for example I see users claiming very different results from the same version of the SW App.
Only had a quick look and not certain that the cameras are necessarily USB interfaced.
Does it need an external vacuum pump as well or just a compressed air source
The 920 requires an external compressed air source - moderate in capacity.
We are intending to use the small Rolair 10Ltr silent model - ~AUD$400.
Does anyone have a photo's of the insides of the machine? (How easy is it to service PC and electronics)
Super easy to gain access - 1 panel on each side of the lower section of the machine, but I'm hoping not to be 'in there' all that often - but with plenty of space to 'move' if required.
Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
I'm not certain of the origin of the CL naming and design, but for the price they are available, I'd only really consider acquiring 'new' feeders. ~USD$55 8mm size. These follow the Yamaha design.
How well does the vibration feeder work?(When running the machine are they always on? I take it,its just a normal front/back feeder to the machine cause the software does not mention any special settings for vibration feeders)
I ordered one Vib Feeder but haven't put it to use yet.
Your assumption that it is always 'on' is correct - it has no logical interface with component selection.
What I have done is get them to place a Pwr Socket on the Front and Rear panels of the machine to supply the Vibe Feeder to spare those extra cables trailing around the place. I'm certain it could be interfaced into the 'system' if required, but I doubt I'll need to do that.
@thommo , what stencil printer would you recommend? I have been looking at the QH3040
That's the printer I selected also. Can't 'recommend it because I've not used it yet, but build quality looks really good and it seems to be 'fit for purpose'.
Given the situation, it all seemed easier to deal with a 'single source' in QiHe that to order the same [or similar] item independently. Also I figured I'd have some 'comeback' and clout with QiHe than another supplier if required.
Cheers - Peter
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Cool, I've also ordered that stencil printer.
QiHE can supply CL feeders with the machine, and I purchased some from them, but also got many more from a different Chinese supplier, i bet they are all the same. Interestingly they are marked 'MADE IN JAPAN' although they are clearly Chinese clones. Purchased 8x2mm 0402, 8x4mm 0603+, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm.
Which vibration feeder did you get?
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Does any CL feeders work with the machine?
I'm not certain of the origin of the CL naming and design, but for the price they are available, I'd only really consider acquiring 'new' feeders. ~AUD$55 8mm size. These follow the Yamaha design.
Thanks Peter.
Did you buy the feeders at that price from QiHE?
@dtf where do you buy your feeders?
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Yamaha "Made in Japan" [suburb of Shenzhen] CL feeders.
Ours came from here I believe, though we purchased them from QiHe and they co-ordinated it on ourbehalf.
http://www.diksmt.com/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=3&SortPath=0,1,2,3, (http://www.diksmt.com/en/ProductList.asp?SortID=3&SortPath=0,1,2,3,)
I believe that this is their Taobao site:
https://13825721751.world.taobao.com/category-461492646.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.w4010-133869645.9.6Md6cr&search=y&parentCatId=461492644&parentCatName=YAMAHA+CL%BF%EE%B7%C9%B4%EF&catName=CL%BF%EE8 (https://13825721751.world.taobao.com/category-461492646.htm?spm=a312a.7700824.w4010-133869645.9.6Md6cr&search=y&parentCatId=461492644&parentCatName=YAMAHA+CL%BF%EE%B7%C9%B4%EF&catName=CL%BF%EE8)*2++FEEDER#bd
and another supplier:
http://ksunsmt.com/partsview.asp?ID=599 (http://ksunsmt.com/partsview.asp?ID=599)
But I sincerely recommend that you acquire them from QiHe if you are considering also buy a machine from them.
One lot of import documentation, they get 'viewed' as an active component of the machine, single handling of 'duty' and 'customs', etc.
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Hi tohmmo,
can you please give us an idea about the cost of machine and parts individually ?
Thanks in advance
Simon
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You'll need to negotiate with QiHe directly, but from memory they advertise:
TVM920 with [8] nozzles for USD$7,000
I reckon it's incredibly good value and, most importantly, it 'exists now' ... meaning you can actually 'buy' one and have in in a couple of weeks. I believe that Michael's new SmallSMT machine which he has just announced is expected to be €9.650,00 for the same [~56] feeder count, as one form of comparison.
CL Yamaha style component feeders
8mm for USD$65
12mm for USD$90
12mm for USD$95
24mm for US$250
Vibe Feeder USD$150
Stencil Printer for USD$380
I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.
From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!
Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?
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I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.
From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!
Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?
@thommo , how far are you from running your TVM920? I am keen on getting one but I need to see it working before I hand over the gold...
I was following the N4 machine but I am not so sure about it.(Did you see its insides? Makes me wonder how their code looks... :palm: )
More Questions:
- How reliable does the feeders work?
- Does the TVM920 suffer the same issue with an under powered vacuum pump?
- How smooth is the machine at lower speeds?
- How stable is the current software? Would you run productions boards with it from day one?
- How easy is it to mount boards to be run?
- OpenPNP will need access to the camera's. How are they connected to the PC?
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Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?
Thanks for your quick responce!
I m in research market for a budget machine like this.
This one, looks like one of the best choices at this moment!
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@ protoneer,
We're probably at least a week or two off running the machine in all its glory. Currently, we are having frames built on which to place it and the oven. It's something we ought to have done earlier, alas - it was not to be.
I don't think you'll be disappointed, and if enough of us can acquire enough 920s [in a reasonably short period of time], I believe I can convince them to assist in opening this machine up to the OpenPnP platform - for those who may be interested. I certainly am.
From there we can customize until the cows come home, and Bob's ya Uncle!
Let's know if this sounds attractive to you too pls?
@thommo , how far are you from running your TVM920? I am keen on getting one but I need to see it working before I hand over the gold...
I was following the N4 machine but I am not so sure about it.(Did you see its insides? Makes me wonder how their code looks... :palm: )
More Questions:
- How reliable does the feeders work?
- Does the TVM920 suffer the same issue with an under powered vacuum pump?
- How smooth is the machine at lower speeds?
- How stable is the current software? Would you run productions boards with it from day one?
- How easy is it to mount boards to be run?
- OpenPNP will need access to the camera's. How are they connected to the PC?
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Does the manufacturer provide a guide on speed of placement ( components per hour)?
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Does the manufacturer provide a guide on speed of placement ( components per hour)?
Online the were saying 7000 without vision and 4000 with.
I don't mind so much about speed. I am more concerned about how repeatable it can place and that it can run with little or no baby sitting.
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mine has shipped :blah:
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Exciting times!
Congratulations @dtf !!!
How are you planning to support/mount it?
What are you intending to use for the reflow process - do you have an oven of any sort yet?
mine has shipped :blah:
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I have some space cleared and a sturdy 15' work table. Feeder and parts storage additionally takes about 6' of wall space. Also ordered T960 oven and their 3040 stencil printer to complete the assembly line. Plus transition automation squeegee.
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7000 per hour seems awfully quick...how many heads does it work with?
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I have some space cleared and a sturdy 15' work table. Feeder and parts storage additionally takes about 6' of wall space. Also ordered T960 oven and their 3040 stencil printer to complete the assembly line. Plus transition automation squeegee.
I'm going to weld up a table for my future TVM920. Can I trouble you to tell me the XY dims of the TVM920 feet envelope to make sure all 4 feet will make it into a table top? I'm assuming the monitor mounts on the side of the machine, and the keyboard could go on a holder arm that I bolt to the side of the table.
And thoughts on a table height that would be comfortable? With feeders on both sides, how do you stick your head in there to get the board out? Looks kind of tight.
Thanks very much for any insight.
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7000 per hour seems awfully quick...how many heads does it work with?
4 heads...
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Hi guys,
TVM920 Dimensions
These are the dimensions provided to us by QiHe which, on a 'quick check' appear to be correct.
This drawing was done for both our TVM920 and the Torch Reflow Oven [hence the dual set of dims]. The QiHe TVM920 dims are in BOLD RED, so you can ignore the other dims marked 'Torch'.
I hope this assists you in preparing for delivery.
Operating Height of Machine
Industry standard appears to be 900mm [in some cases +up to 50mm, so 950mm].
[I have opted to settle on 900mm however]
Monitor & Keyboard
TVM920 comes equipped with a Swivel Monitor Arm already mounted to the R/H side of the machine. It also has a Bolt-on 'shelf' designed to support a keyboard, but without sufficient space for a mouse to operate easily. I plan to use a roller 'chest of drawers' for Keyboard & Mouse, and to store accessories etc.
Access to Machine when Feeders are Loaded
This should not present an issue as approx half the feeder depth is positioned 'inside' the machine. This is also an industry standard approach it appears.
Good luck - Peter
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Machine Leveling Feet
The TVM920 is fitted as standard with 4x 'leveling feet'.
In the attached pic the image shows the foot at its minimum height of ~45mm. The leveling feet have an M12 thread, however we have decided to remove these feet and sit the entire base perimeter onto a 10mm thick x 40mm wide neoprene gasket [eg - self adhesive strip] which we expect will compress to approx 4mm with the machine on top.
The frame we are constructing will be in SHS 75mm x 75mm x 2mm, and we are attaching swivel leveling feet to these legs. We've allowed 70mm height for these feet and so we decided to make our frame 515mm high for this reason.
275mm - internal working platform
36mm - stand-up which are the PCB 'holders/supports'
4mm - neoprene gasket
70mm - swivel feet
515mm - frame
Therefore we expect to end up with a working PCB height of 900mm.
BTW - the panel on the R/H side [in the attached pic] shows the cable entry/exit for Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse, but I think we'll go wireless for Keyboard & Mouse however. And the 3 pairs of holes just to the right of it are the mounting holes for the 'shelf' which I referred to in a previous post, which QiHe includes for the Keyboard
Hope this info is of some use guys.
Cheers - Peter
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7000 per hour seems awfully quick...how many heads does it work with?
Spec sheet shows 7000cph without vision or 4000cph with vision, it's 4 head, of course those are likely 'ideal' numbers.
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DTF,
I do not doubt that 7000 ( or 4000) CPH are correct. I simply did not kno how many heads the machine works with.
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Mmmm... my mistake. Single head with 4 pickup nozzles.
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Mmmm... my mistake. Single head with 4 pickup nozzles.
Ah yes this is a better answer.
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Hi new machine owners.
No one with news ? :)
How the machines works ?
How about the difficulties ?
And the software ? Is there any reason to move to open PnP or it can be used well ?
Thank You in advance for answers !
Zoltan
P.S. Just bought mine.
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Congrats :)
No tracking from the forwarder yet after 1 week+. This was Fedex Express at almost $1900 cost. Been about a month since payment now, of course 1 week of that was Chinese holiday.
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Have you tried to contact Fedex?
Sounds like the ball is in their cart, but unusual for tracking not to be available withing a day of pick-up.
Congrats :)
No tracking from the forwarder yet after 1 week+. This was Fedex Express at almost $1900 cost. Been about a month since payment now, of course 1 week of that was Chinese holiday.
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I've seen several people bought those, but I don't remember seeing any actual usage reviews. Did I miss some?
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Hooray, got tracking, scheduled delivery next Tuesday.
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I hope this assists you in preparing for delivery.
Indeed it does. Machine ordered.
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Good to know that is a brother close to my machine.
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The TVM920 seems very similar to BS281 from Autotronik, Germany, costing comes to around 42K USD with duty and shipment.
http://www.autotronik-smt.de/en/products/smt-pick-place-machine/smt-pick-place-machine-bs281.html (http://www.autotronik-smt.de/en/products/smt-pick-place-machine/smt-pick-place-machine-bs281.html)
While TVM920 seems to give similar functionality at fraction of cost.
I was going to finalize BS281 but came across this thread and changed my mind.
I have been closely reading all threads including this and N4.
After reviewing all post here, I feel TVM920 is the ideal machine for small to medium assembly business.
The selling point for the machine is 4x Juki Nozzles and Yahama Feeders. Its worth the effort to have external compressor pump.
I am from India, Finally I am talking with Grea from qihekj.com to finalize order and payment in this week.
Regards,
Viral
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The TVM920 seems very similar to BS281 from Autotronik, Germany, costing comes to around 42K USD with duty and shipment.
No it does not.
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Similar not in the sense of construction but in functionality to a small business,
BS281 is the entry model with single nozzle and reliable feeder.
Same can be replaced with TVM920 at lower cost easily.
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Similar not in the sense of construction but in functionality to a small business,
You cannot expect similar performance from TVM920, and qihe does not specify it. The only thing qihe is better at is max placement speed (4 heads). But it does not support 0201. BS281 optionally supports even 01005 which tells a LOT about precision of the construction. You cannot expect even closely similar placement reliability. And what you can expect is poor software.
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Hi folks,
I'v been reading this thread frequently and as an early adopter to the TVM802A am very interested in the performance of the TVM920 when it comes to precission. What are the experiences with 0.5 , 0.65 SSOP?
When I look at the picture on their website (http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj/225484283/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj.png (http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj/225484283/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj.png))
I can see the same problems that I have with my machine: the recognition on the lower pins is in the middle of the pin and not on the egde - ergo there will be an misplacement with half this distance.
On the right side you can see that the camera is not facing upwards at 90 degrees but at a slightly different angle. This normally results in some distortion in the reconition process and could be the source of the placement error mentioned before.
Looking forward to your feedback, because right now I am not sure whether to prefer the 920 over the Neoden4.
Jan
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TVM920 fits my requirements because
1. My boards mostly have 0603, SOT223, SMA, MicroUSB, SOIC8, QFN, LQFP 0.5mm
2. More nozzles to cover above parts and to avoid changes of nozzles during operation
3. Quick Reel Changes due to Yahama CL feeders.
4. Easily change more width feeders in same slot.
5. External Air Compressor just like high end machines ensures proper feeders operation unlike push pin type or N4 electric type
6. Easily to Open and Repair
7. Responsive After sales support
Viral
-
Hi JanL,
Though we have not yet commissioned our TVM920, one thing I can assure you is that both cameras ]top & bottom] are designed, and are practically placed, so as to be perpendicular to the PCB plane.
In my view, what you are looking at in the picture you've mentioned, is the result of the component being 'picked' slightly off-center from the nozzle. This has caused the 920's head to offset laterally in order to align the component in the middle of the camera's view of view, and make the compensation for accurate placement.
From what I am able to view, the camera is imaging the component square on, and in its center.
As I said, we have no practical experience with placing components with this machine yet, however I understand that the vision system in the 920 has been substantially enhanced [compared with that used in the 802 model]. Let's hope so huh?
Cheers - Peter
Hi folks,
I'v been reading this thread frequently and as an early adopter to the TVM802A am very interested in the performance of the TVM920 when it comes to precission. What are the experiences with 0.5 , 0.65 SSOP?
When I look at the picture on their website (http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj/225484283/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj.png (http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj/225484283/HTB1iHhuLpXXXXaFaXXX760XFXXXj.png))
I can see the same problems that I have with my machine: the recognition on the lower pins is in the middle of the pin and not on the egde - ergo there will be an misplacement with half this distance.
On the right side you can see that the camera is not facing upwards at 90 degrees but at a slightly different angle. This normally results in some distortion in the reconition process and could be the source of the placement error mentioned before.
Looking forward to your feedback, because right now I am not sure whether to prefer the 920 over the Neoden4.
Jan
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Hello all
Yesterday I placed an order for a TVM920 and full spare parts kit.
I'm pretty impressed with the build quality and this (Chinese) manufacturer has demonstrated themselves to be open to feedback and improvement on their software. Most are not. Down the track it might get a OpenPNP conversion.
Spare parts kit is not cheap, but important if you are a pro and need not to be waiting around for a part to come in...
This might mean I sell my low hour (15kh) Yamaha YVL88-ii if anyone is interested, I have a bit of interest so far.
-Glen
Canberra, Australia
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Hi glenenglish,
Congratulations on the TVM920 purchase - yet another one for Australia!
We're based in Melbourne so, if you find yourself in need of any of our spares kit [which we purchased 'extra bits' for also], just let's know - we'd be more than happy to help out and share with you to ensure continuity of workflow.
OpenPnP, or similar, could well be on the cards as an alternate Control App I reckon, especially if we end up with sufficient users who are willing to 'contribute' - I think even a small number [like 3] could make a big dent in things. There's another TVM920 owner [Rob in Canada] who we've already discussed this with, who is prepared to commit - so let's know if it has any interest for you once you get things up and running!
Good luck.
Can I ask how soon you expect to be getting delivery?
Cheers - Peter
Hello all
Yesterday I placed an order for a TVM920 and full spare parts kit.
I'm pretty impressed with the build quality and this (Chinese) manufacturer has demonstrated themselves to be open to feedback and improvement on their software. Most are not. Down the track it might get a OpenPNP conversion.
Spare parts kit is not cheap, but important if you are a pro and need not to be waiting around for a part to come in...
This might mean I sell my low hour (15kh) Yamaha YVL88-ii if anyone is interested, I have a bit of interest so far.
-Glen
Canberra, Australia
-
2 weeks approx, give or take...
-
Today I ordered TVM920. I got a air compressor with 70liter storage tank and 100psi pressure, which the Tvm920 needs.
-
Suitable feeders for TVM920 are which I ordered are
Yamaha CL 8*4mm Feeders KW1-M1100-000
Yamaha CL 12mm Feeders KW1-M2200-300
Yamaha CL 16mm Feeders KW1-M3200-10x
Yamaha CL 24mm Feeders KW1-M4500-015
-
Don't forget 2mm pitch feeders if you plan on placing 0402, resistor arrays etc
-
Any benefit of 0402 over 0603 except size?
Please share your views.
-
Any benefit of 0402 over 0603 except size?
Please share your views.
lower inductance.
-
Viral
0402 v 0603
that is not a simple topic.
And not really a topic for this forum- best on another forum to avoid polluting this forum
-so I will answer quick
- more board density. lower inductance useful for some applications. some parts are not available in 0402 only 0603 etc
0402 sized parts come on 8mm tape and usually 2mm pitch. . 0603 and larger and common parts SOT-23 etc come on 8mm tape and 4mm pitch.
I would suggest, sticking with 0603 until you understand the difference yourself. There is alot to it. if you are buying 8mm tape feeders, and you do not know how many 0402 compared to 0603 you might use, I would suggest perhaps order 10% (8mm x 2mm), and 90% (8mm x 4mm pitch) - BUT ! as I said , if you need to ask this question, my guess is your experience is not sufficient to make use of them.
Anyway, this is not the place for this sort of discussion- you will find I think plenty on answers on this blog :
"Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff"
or
"General PCB/EDA/CAD Discussions"
good luck :-)
-
So no one has tested placing SSOPs so far?
I was talking to the salesperson on Alibaba and she send me a picture of the requirements for the compressor: https://img.alicdn.com/L1/134/7478/ftssrvlk/9/26/42a151ce52dfdb75e186371854395056.png
This seems huge! What kind of compressors do you people use for this machine?
Jan
-
I have no idea how my 920 machine would use that volume of air.
We are using a small [and very quiet] Rolair 10ltr/2 gallon tiny machine.
Perhaps if you were loading LEDs with all 4 heads and running 100% non-stop, but that's not our usage - as soon as you add in an 'imaging' cycle, you start to drastically reduce the req volume. Even the small compressors will supply that pressure, so that's not an issue.
Cheers - Peter
So no one has tested placing SSOPs so far?
I was talking to the salesperson on Alibaba and she send me a picture of the requirements for the compressor: https://img.alicdn.com/L1/134/7478/ftssrvlk/9/26/42a151ce52dfdb75e186371854395056.png
This seems huge! What kind of compressors do you people use for this machine?
Jan
-
Peter,
thanks. I will go for a smaller one too.
-
I have this one which should be more than sufficient http://www.dewalt.ca/en-ca/products/gear-and-equipment/air-compressors/16-hp-continuous-200-psi-15-gallon-workshop-compressor/d55168 (http://www.dewalt.ca/en-ca/products/gear-and-equipment/air-compressors/16-hp-continuous-200-psi-15-gallon-workshop-compressor/d55168)
Metric push-connect hose and fittings are actually quite difficult to find in Canada so just connecting it was also a challenge, saved by online shopping.
My machine has arrived, it will be installed this week and hopefully I can start assembly asap. So that was ~6 weeks from payment to delivery.
-
My machine has arrived, it will be installed this week and hopefully I can start assembly asap. So that was ~6 weeks from payment to delivery.
Show & tell!
-
Why does not anybody reports about their experience with TVM920? Are you guys holding back?
-
Who else has received a machine recently besides thommo?
-
progress so far, just learning the software now etc. Waiting on the air line fittings to actually do any placement.
The interior light did not work, which was quickly diagnosed as a poor ground connection at the 24V power supply, likely a victim of shipping.
(http://i.imgur.com/DqK5z4Y.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PTNgIcx.jpg)
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Hi dtf
Any reason why the benches and support tables are low to the ground?
I would have the feeder interface plates about chest height so when I was peering into the machine, the PCB would be within my working eyes/ visor length....
My Yamaha YVL88 top cover is about nose height (~1650mm?). feeders plate is about waist height ..... i think that's a bit low hence reason to put the 920 feeder plate about chest height......
My 920 will ship sometime this coming week...
-
i actually took thommo's suggestion of 900mm PCB height and ended up with 905mm PCB height, which is about waist height for the PCB and feeders. I think I would like this better than chest height, where I would have to reach up and over to view a PCB, trays etc. This way I can work either seated or standing
Video is uploading now of running through the sample PCB's program without any nozzles or feeders, but I'm pretty sure if I had the air supply connected I could be placing large pitch / basic panels a short while from now. The software is quite easy to use.
-
To haul this thing up the stairs (what kind of idiot puts a machine shop on the 2nd floor? this guy) I had to remove the metal enclosure above the PCB deck. It was not difficult except the right side Y axis stepper is directly connected to the stepper driver, which is all the way over on the left side, and its cables thread through a hole in the metal enclosure. So, it had to be disconnected and its cable un-threaded all the way through.
Additionally, several bolts had come loose including some securing the steppers to the frame. Of course a good once-over is standard on any new equipment so it was not a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOl8Dz0N8A4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOl8Dz0N8A4)
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Today I ordered TVM920. I got a air compressor with 70liter storage tank and 100psi pressure, which the Tvm920 needs.
The working throughput of the compressor is also important ( l/min )...
-
Hi Guys,
My company is thinking about buying a TVM920. Has anyone in the thread started to use the machine yet?
It would be awesome to have a Google hangout session together with you guys and discuss where you are at and your ideas about an OpenPNP conversion. Any takers?
I have good relationships with employees/professors, at Chalmers University here in Sweden, than can help me out with setting up student projects to do an OpenPNP conversion for us and to do thorough documentation and make that public. I think it would be valuable to have your insights and ideas as you guys are the first to use the machines.
-
Metric push-connect hose and fittings are actually quite difficult to find in Canada so just connecting it was also a challenge, saved by online shopping.
Can you tell what type of connector adapters are needed? Most US compressors are 1/4" NPT. What does the TVM require?
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Hi imanhp,
Definitely interested.
I'll organise another couple of guys and get back to you.
Thanks for the initiative.
Cheers - Peter
Hi Guys,
My company is thinking about buying a TVM920. Has anyone in the thread started to use the machine yet?
It would be awesome to have a Google hangout session together with you guys and discuss where you are at and your ideas about an OpenPNP conversion. Any takers?
I have good relationships with employees/professors, at Chalmers University here in Sweden, than can help me out with setting up student projects to do an OpenPNP conversion for us and to do thorough documentation and make that public. I think it would be valuable to have your insights and ideas as you guys are the first to use the machines.
-
Any benefit of 0402 over 0603 except size?
Please share your views.
less reel changes.
-
Metric push-connect hose and fittings are actually quite difficult to find in Canada so just connecting it was also a challenge, saved by online shopping.
Can you tell what type of connector adapters are needed? Most US compressors are 1/4" NPT. What does the TVM require?
10mm push-connect
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Hi imanhp
I am definitely not interested in an Open PnP conversion by students...
BUT !
it would make an ideal student undergrad thesis project
As the conversion requires knowledge and learning of several disciplines.
- Reverse engineering
- steppers, mechatronix etc, mechanics, dynamics, understanding of dynamic systems and keeping the system closed loop
- microcontrollers and programming
- PC interfaces
- hardware interfacing in general
It would make an ideal undergrad thesis. They would really learn something.
best regards
Glen.
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The air line parts arrived this morning and I got to placing, here are some thoughts
- The covers need to be down or ambient light will affect the up-vision. The vision system would always align on a reflection instead of the 0402 component when placing with the shades up.
- There is only one vision setting which appears to be luminosity threshold, and it is not set per component but per nozzle. This may cause problems down the road if picking different component types with the same nozzle, time will tell.
- The vacuum pumps are operated via the compressed air source. The unit has one vacuum pump per nozzle. So when you're not picking the unit uses no air. The part number is CKD VSY-L05-444S-F which leads to a Japanese manufacturer, the pumps are rated at 66kPa vacuum with 12L/min draw each. The break adjustment locknut is missing on one of the pumps, likely another victim of shipping.
- So far the software has crashed once (unhandled exception error) while stepping thru placement. The changes I made to system settings were not lost, but all the unchanged parameters from the placement file were gone - i.e. when the tutorial tells you to click save after every change, do it
-
...
- There is only one vision setting which appears to be luminosity threshold, and it is not set per component but per nozzle. This may cause problems down the road if picking different component types with the same nozzle, time will tell.
...
I was hoping they learned from the TVM802 problems, but unfortunately they did not.
How to place various ICs with only one vision setting, I did not make it.
-
Vision Settings
Fear not. I am in discussion with QiHe about modifying their App to allow Vision Settings to be applied on a per Component/ Feeder basis.
These guys have been great so far and always reliably responded to reasonable requests.
Cheers - Peter
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Hi DTF,
What version of the App are you running currently?
So far the software has crashed once (unhandled exception error) while stepping thru placement. The changes I made to system settings were not lost, but all the unchanged parameters from the placement file were gone - i.e. when the tutorial tells you to click save after every change, do it
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Hi DTF,
What version of the App are you running currently?
So far the software has crashed once (unhandled exception error) while stepping thru placement. The changes I made to system settings were not lost, but all the unchanged parameters from the placement file were gone - i.e. when the tutorial tells you to click save after every change, do it
Title bar says V1.24
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another missing feature - there doesn't appear to be a way to specify rotation of components on tape. i have to go thru and edit all the pick and place components. and again, if i swap feeder from front to back? Does anyone know if this functionality is really missing?
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One last thing... larger feeders like 24mm don't fit in the rear bank, but I think this is documented somewhere.
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The included nozzles are Juki 503, 504, 505, and 506. There's a handy document on how to choose which nozzle you need here: http://avipre.com/products/smt&tht/juki//Juki%20-%20Nozzle%20Catalogue-Rev-C3.pdf (http://avipre.com/products/smt&tht/juki//Juki%20-%20Nozzle%20Catalogue-Rev-C3.pdf)
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this document is very helpful.
The only thing I make different, for SOT23 they specify the 503 nozzle.
This nozzle has not enough suction to compensate the vibrations, so I use the 504, which works fine.
-
Hmm, kind of frustrating that there's no log of mis-picks, discarded parts, etc. Something to indicate to me that something is amiss.
Also I'm used to having a gerber viewer handy to quickly locate component designators. I can install one along-side but this is nice to have natively.
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Hi folks, just wanted to let you know that we've begun an effort to support the TVM802A/B and TVM920 machines in OpenPnP. If that is a topic that interests you, please come join the discussion at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/735aZn-GFRw.
Thanks,
Jason
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Hi Jason,
Well that's fantastic news!!!
Thanks
Let's know how we can support you - there are at least 3 or 4 of us [in our group] with 920's that will be over the moon to assist you in the effort.
Cheers - Peter
Hi folks, just wanted to let you know that we've begun an effort to support the TVM802A/B and TVM920 machines in OpenPnP. If that is a topic that interests you, please come join the discussion at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/735aZn-GFRw.
Thanks,
Jason
-
some info on the computer inside, it's a Mini-ITX board from unknown manufacturer with the markings P&Q 1536 CM-3 94V-0 E162264 on the rear. It has 2xSATA ports, 2xmSATA plugs with one populated with 32gb SSD, 4x rear USB2 ports and 4 more ports on 2 onboard headers one of which leads to 2 USB2 front panel ports, 2gb DDR3-1300, one PCI port (yes, PCI) populated with unmarked video capture card using SAA7134HL decoder. Two cameras are connected with RCA coaxial jacks. It comes with 32-bit Windows 7 Ultimate installed. There are rear serial, parallel, and ethernet ports with the ethernet running over to a control board on the other side of the machine.
Windows reports the CPU as Intel Atom N2600 1.6GHz which interestingly is a 64-bit processor. Only generic graphics drivers are installed. The capture card enumerates as SDK3000.
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Windows reports the CPU as Intel Atom N2600 1.6GHz which interestingly is a 64-bit processor.
I don't think you can get 32 bit x86 these days,
It comes with 32-bit Windows 7
Which most likely is pirated, as I don't see how they would install legal ultimate edition on something like this.
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It comes with 32-bit Windows 7
Which most likely is pirated, as I don't see how they would install legal ultimate edition on something like this.
[/quote]
Yep, it also came with ancient Altium 6.8.
Anyway upgrading to proper Intel graphics drivers fixed the issues I was having with my CAD software.
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Hi dtf,
What Graphics Drivers were you experiencing issue with?
Did you just allow Windows to do an automatic update in relation to those Drivers?
What CAD software are you trying to run on the 920's MiniITX?
Sounds like you're making good progress over there.
It comes with 32-bit Windows 7
Which most likely is pirated, as I don't see how they would install legal ultimate edition on something like this.
Yep, it also came with ancient Altium 6.8.
Anyway upgrading to proper Intel graphics drivers fixed the issues I was having with my CAD software.
[/quote]
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10mm push-connect
Thanks. Machine has arrived and is getting set up. I'll say the software is very rough at this point. In spite of vision, there seems to be no way to set the pick location on all the feeders. I mean, it should be very easy to identify the location of the first pocket in the tape, and then it automatically goes to the next feeder and finds that pocket, and so on, until it has precisely identified the pick location of each feeder.
There seems to be something automated happening. If I move the camera close enough, it will identify a sprocket hole with a pink circle and then indicate the offset to that from the current camera position. But I cannot find a way to use anything about this.
The manual goes over the obvious, and glosses over the obscure. Most manual entries are along the lines of "This is the XY indicator. Here, you can see the XY location of the head" and then right next to it there's something mysterious that isn't even mentioned. Not very helpful.
There samples load OK, but I am getting the sinking feeling that I am expected to load coordinates by hand. I have a pick and place list, a list that has worked at board makers all across the US and China, and this machine hasn't a clue what to do with it.
Worse, the sample CSV of coordinates has a ton of cryptic numbers after the obvious info. I think they are storing pick and place sessions settings in the pick and place file.
The feeders have a barcode on the feeder which is nice. Ultimately, I'd like to get to the point where I generate a pick and place file, and then software reads that and generates a list of required feeders. And then I scan each feeder in the machine, and as I scan it it says "Not needed" and I remove it or "OK" and I leave it. And then after scanning each feeder, software then says "add in feeder 123456 to Front23" until everything is populated. A final scan of each barcode verifies everything is just so, and then I hit go.
I'm disappointed there isn't a probe to automatically sense PCB height. The nozzles are pretty forgiving, though. And the feeders and the MIC6 plate ensure that once you have one feeder dialed in, the rest will be dialed in too. I think that long term there's 2-3 mm of Z axis "give" in the system that heights wont' need to be checked.
The machine hardware quality is astounding. The X axis servos are massive and there are two of them. But the software so far is very, very poor. Well below expectations. Barely alpha quality, I'd say. That said, the stability is fine.
The LCD they provided is somewhat small and has a limited viewing range. The arm that mounts it has limited tilt range. First up will be a nice IPS display, maybe with touch. If you are tall, make sure you check the delta between your melon and the screen and that you are OK with the viewing quality. Contrast drops quickly if you are off axis.
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I agree, software is rough. But, it could be much, much worse. Sorry, I'm an optimist :) I haven't had any problems importing XY .csv data, what are you using to export it? Could you post a sample file?
I've requested QiHE add some features, such as part rotation - right now if your part doesn't match the orientation in CAD you have to go through every component and change its angle manually. Same again when you move a feeder from front to back. Amateur hour here.
There's no way to tell which IC in an IC tray will be picked or which ones have been picked (current IC index) or to set this value - I've requested this be updated.
There's no part data at all - only feeder data. Very unlike commercial systems. This also means there's no part adjustments (like rotation above) - if the 'visual' center of a part is not the footprint 0,0 coordinate it will mis-place the part, I am having this problem with a USB connector. The XY data needs to be modified by hand to place the part correctly. Amateur hour. And this also slows loading the machine as you have to enter part data for every project.
If there is a mis-pick or missing part, there is no indication, notification, or log. The machine tries to pick the part over and over again. In some rare cases the machine appears to have been 'confused' by this and placed a component incorrectly.
If your design has Per-PCB fiducials (instead of per-panel) only 5 subpanels are supported per design. 6+ PCBs per panel = per-panel fiducials only.
No response from QiHE yet whether they will do anything about software.
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Below are the first few lines of the file I'm trying to import. When I ask QiHi the simple question "What is the expected file format of the import file?" it's met with non-answers--they keep wanting me to use their sample CSV, which of course works. With the lines below, I'm using the LOAD button, and the CSV option is one of the types allowed. I pick the file, and nothing happens. It just ignores it. What would be helpful is an error message saying "Unable to parse item 3 on line 3. Expected float, saw string" or something similar
The Altium file I created from the sample they gave isn't loading either, but as I look at that, the values were in mils, so I'm wondering if that is the issue there.
If you had a sample CSV that you YOU have created and that loads, the first few lines of that would be much appreciated. The CSVs they include have a bunch of numbers after the expected lines of refdes/location/etc. Those aren't useful to me. I just need a simple 5 line CSV with a few parts so I can understand what they expect to see. Thanks very much!
"Designator","NozzleNum","StackNum","Mid X","Mid Y","Rotation","Height","Speed","Vision","Pressure","Explanation"
""
"r0", "1", "F24", "30.00", "30.00", "0.00", "0.5", "100", "Quick", "True", "R0603"
"r1", "1", "F24", "33.00", "30.00", "0.00", "0.5", "100", "Quick", "True", "R0603"
"r2", "1", "F24", "36.00", "30.00", "0.00", "0.5", "100", "Quick", "True", "R0603"
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No response from QiHE yet whether they will do anything about software.
Perhaps we should divide and conquer on this. There are at least 2 categories:
1) Things that can be fixed with external pre-processor
2) Things that cannot be fixed by outside code
I'd submit that if something can be fixed with 1), then we should not request it for now. Have QiHe work on the core stuff that external code cannot improve. For example, things such as re-ordering feeders, handling shift from front to back, etc, can be fixed in outside code and as we figure out work flow on this machine, the needs will become obvious.
But some things, such as automatic recognition of feeder locations, needs to be done by them.
I have requested that they move file formats to XML or JSON. Writing values to a text file line by line is circa 1992 and every modern language can make an XML file in 10 lines of code. And this effectively cracks open #1 above. This lets things like barcode scanning of feeders, part library managers, etc, be written
And yes, the holy grail should be getting the API and a port to open PNP.
I'd buy the machine again, but only because of the feeders. Those are an investment I feel good about. And holy crap are they reliable on this machine. A zillion times better than my previous PNP machine(s). Their decision to use these feeder and juki nozzles was awesome.
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Here's a couple lines of my export that works fine.
"Designator","Footprint","Mid X","Mid Y","Ref X","Ref Y","Pad X","Pad Y","Layer","Rotation","Comment"
""
"R9","0402RES-IPC-L","8mm","29.6mm","8mm","29.6mm","7.55mm","29.6mm","T","360.00","RES 0402 100R"
"C19","0402CAP-IPC-L","7.747mm","12.192mm","7.747mm","12.192mm","7.747mm","11.642mm","T","90.00","CAP 0402 10000p"
I agree, the feeders are excellent, they even have adjustable pull-tape tension and feed pitch adjustment on the larger ones as expected, they are a huge selling point of this machine.
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If I name F1 "RES 0402 100R" and F2 "CAP 0402 10000p" and then import the file you posted, is there a way to make it automatically assign the values to the correct feeders? Or do I manually need to map every imported part in the CSV to the appropriate feeder?
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If I name F1 "RES 0402 100R" and F2 "CAP 0402 10000p" and then import the file you posted, is there a way to make it automatically assign the values to the correct feeders? Or do I manually need to map every imported part in the CSV to the appropriate feeder?
for this reason I wrote the software eagle2tvm which does the assignment automatically.
But it is made for the TVM802, I don't know if the file format of the 920 is compatible.
If one of you is a C# programmer, you can download the source and give it a try:
https://github.com/dj0abr/eagle2tvm802
Without this software I wouldn't be able to handle the assignment of parts in a short time without any mistake.
I also did a youtube video showing how it works.
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Hi Harry, this is very helpful. How did you determine the parameter ordering in the WriteTail routine? Is this published someplace, or did you just reverse engineer it? If the latter, is there a chance you put all this info a doc of some kind?
Nice work you've done there.
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If I name F1 "RES 0402 100R" and F2 "CAP 0402 10000p" and then import the file you posted, is there a way to make it automatically assign the values to the correct feeders? Or do I manually need to map every imported part in the CSV to the appropriate feeder?
There's no way to automatically assign parts / feeders. But once the CSV has been imported and feeders assigned, you can save the QiHE project file which includes feeder data. Yeah it's another step that adds to setup time but before every batch I'm going through feeders/parts anyway so it's not *too* bad.
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In relation to the recent posts, I believe we need to separate the 3 primary elements.
Components
Feeders
Machine Slots/Positions
And obviously we'd require a means to link each of them.
[this is all independant of the current QiHe Application, but if agreed, we could make an approach to them with a clear brief]
With a set-up such as this a User can have as many [or few] Feeders as they wish [and unrelated to the 920's capacity of 56] and would link a Component directly with a Feeder. This data is stored independent of the 'project'.
In turn, a Feeder would be associated with a Machine Slot.
This date is stored as a dependency of the 'project'.
This would also have the benefit of making any future, automated selection/identification software easier to implement - eg QR coded Feeders being 'read' by the 920 'head' [this would require an additional clip-mounted camera to be placed on the head once per set-up.
This would therefore ensure that the correct placement and relationship of Feeder/Machine Slot was maintained [or an alarm raised if not]. The only variable would then become Component/Feeder relationship, which needs to be managed in any event.
Peter
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Hi Thommo,
In the exchanges above, note where I asked "This format isn't working" and the reply came back from dtf saying "This format I'm pasting here works"...that exchange was simple and direct. I had a similar exchange with the software leader at QiHe over 3 days and approaching a dozen messages. It went in circles over and over, with him asserting that I couldn't modify anything in excel, under any circumstances, it all had to be done in Altium. I asked the question many different ways. I gave examples. I went sentence by sentence. I wrote very short mails.
Some background: I've traveled to Asia more than 130 times (Japan, China, Taiwan) for business and I work on very complex projects with folks over there routinely--all great engineers. I used to think that I could communicate in the language of EE...but I'll tell you it is impossible if the person doesn't have the base language skills. In finally gave up with the QiHi guy and found this place.
I'm afraid the language skills aren't where we need them to be at QiHe for complex technical engagements--but I could be wrong. It's certainly worth a try. But if a person cannot answer a direct question of "what is the file format required for this file?" then I think everything that comes after that is borderline hopeless.
If we can understand their file formats, then we can create an external program (as Harry has done) and make the QiHe software very usable. This should be fairly straightforward. I'll likely go this route regardless of where others head as I need something short term.
If concurrent to this they could make the feeder setup automatic (such that the machine would look for feeders pockets automatically and populate the lists) that'd be awesome.
Ultimately, we need to learn the protocol and ditch their software. It is primitive beyond words.
I hope I'm wrong. But I'm slowly setting aside some time to do the work I need to make this machine useful.
If someone wants to put together a list of asks so that we can vote on them, here are my 3 in order:
1) Explain the machine control protocol. Looks like everything is done over TCPIP and 2 vision inputs.
2) Make the current software smarter so that it can discover the location of feeder pockets on front/back automatically and update the locations in the config. This should be easy. Find a sprocket hole is already happening automatically it looks like.
3) Explain the various file formats
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I'm afraid the language skills aren't where we need them to be at QiHe
Hehe :) in my experience in order to make sure people in Asia understand what I'm telling them, I need to repeat the information 3 times using different words.
Unfortunately language barrier is really a barrier. I ordered some CNC parts from China and the girl from there was calling me periodically to follow up. But even though she manages with written English, her spoken Eng was non-existent. I felt so sorry for her, as she was trying.
Back to the topic, is the format of the 920 so difficult to understand? For 802 the format although cryptic, it is fairly simple to reverse.
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The language barrier is not that hard. You could learn Mandarin.
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Hi 'anfang',
Can I ask who you've been speaking with at QiHe on these topics?
Although we understand the frustration, I must say [albeit with persistence] we've received good results from them to date. We have the benefit of having a Chinese speaking staff member, but this hasn't been required with QiHe so far.
If we all fragment, the amount of effort [individually] will be great. If at all possible, especially now that the 920 numbers are starting to add up, it would be great if we can get QiHe onboard and to take this on so that everyone can benefit.
Cheers - Peter
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Can I ask who you've been speaking with at QiHe on these topics?
I just sent you a PM with more info as I don't want to get the guy in trouble. He's very sincere and tries very hard and he's very prompt. It's just that the info that comes back isn't helpful or relevant.
Although we understand the frustration, I must say [albeit with persistence] we've received good results from them to date.
There's no question the hardware these guys have built is phenomenal. I have just loaded a feeder with 0402 caps and the feeding on 0402 is flawless. Placement is a bit wobbly and I still have a bit more diagnosing to do there.
On the software, I've posted twice now my list of wants. If anyone else wants to post their wants I'm happy to have us rank these as a group and pick a person to approach QiHe and get the features scheduled.
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What I found on my TVM920, was that the calibration was off by a considerable margin. At this point, there were no abilities to re-calibrate the steps/mm for X and Y, but they should be in your software / firmware. What I did was went and bought a precision metal ruler, and placed it on the machine bed, and used the camera to re-calibrate the X and Y step scaling the configuration options. Once I did that, the positional accuracy was far better (near perfect). The only caveat, is that once you re-calibrate those two settings, it will throw all your other locations / offsets into a tizzy, and you will have to go over EVERYTHING! I also adjusted the nozzle X/Y offsets from camera / etc, which helped a lot also.
The only area of concern that is currently not correctable, is the error introduced by nozzle concentricity. Since the 920 does not have automatic nozzle correction, if you are not using vision for placement, and the nozzle is not perfectly concentric (in build quality, or in the nozzle holder), and rotations of the part will throw placement accuracy out the door.
But in any case, with a good few hours spent calibrating the machine, mine is running really well (so far).
R.
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But in any case, with a good few hours spent calibrating the machine, mine is running really well (so far).
After I set my machine up, there seems to be drift over time. That is, in the morning, after I turn the machine back on and do the 'home' operation, the locations for everything is slightly off. Not by a fixed amount. But I have to re-zero the pockets for each feeder, re-zero the nozzles, etc.
Does your machine precisely remember the locations of things over hours/days? Or are you having to re-zero things during operation?
I just ran a test of 100 0402 placements at 70% speed using two nozzles and placing onto sticky tape pcb. This was with 'quick' vision correction. I'd be interested if others could run this. You can see there are a few places in the placement where the results were very good. And other places not so good. I will continue to tweak and learn.
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And one more note as I just looked this up: A 10C degree change in room temp will change the length of a 1m piece of aluminum by 1mm, which suggests that if you want to do 0402, you need to keep room temp swings to a few degrees. But more importantly, it suggests that to keep a calibration on a machine overnight, the machine temps need to be within a few degrees of each other day to day.
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Sorry, your math is off by a factor of 5. So it is not so bad.
And one more note as I just looked this up: A 10C degree change in room temp will change the length of a 1m piece of aluminum by 1mm, which suggests that if you want to do 0402, you need to keep room temp swings to a few degrees. But more importantly, it suggests that to keep a calibration on a machine overnight, the machine temps need to be within a few degrees of each other day to day.
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Hi anfang,
From your observation, what are you putting the cause of these misalignments down to?
It occurs to me that the component is moving on the nozzle after visual alignment.
Have you tried 'stepping' through each phase of the placement?
What result do you get if you slow the machine down even more, or use the more precise vision option?
What nozzle are you using?
Have you checked the nozzle tip for damage due to crashing it into the component/PCB?
1mm displacement seems a lot to me. I'm not certain I've explrienced that kind of shift but we are in an air conditional environment.
I'd be interested in your response.
Thanks for your posts.
Thanks - Peter
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Yes, I believe ar_systems is correct
0.2mm shift / 1mtr / 10C
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But in any case, with a good few hours spent calibrating the machine, mine is running really well (so far).
After I set my machine up, there seems to be drift over time. That is, in the morning, after I turn the machine back on and do the 'home' operation, the locations for everything is slightly off. Not by a fixed amount. But I have to re-zero the pockets for each feeder, re-zero the nozzles, etc.
Does your machine precisely remember the locations of things over hours/days? Or are you having to re-zero things during operation?
I just ran a test of 100 0402 placements at 70% speed using two nozzles and placing onto sticky tape pcb. This was with 'quick' vision correction. I'd be interested if others could run this. You can see there are a few places in the placement where the results were very good. And other places not so good. I will continue to tweak and learn.
It looks like a Z axis height problem go in 0.05 mm steps deeper (reduce component height ) and try again and check if it's placing better.
You can reduce max by 0.15mm deeper for 0402.
The PCB maybe not even height so we use the nozzle spring to compensate.
Good luck!
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Yes, I believe ar_systems is correct
0.2mm shift / 1mtr / 10C
Yes, thanks to both for correcting.
Does your machine hold the same calibration over 24 hours? That is, if you locate the pocket on feeder F1, and turn the machine off at night, and then wake up in the morning and do a 'home' operation does it go back to the dead center of the feeder pocket again?
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From your observation, what are you putting the cause of these misalignments down to?
There is a parameter called "pick delay" and "place delay" and both were at zero. I changed both to 150 mS with some good improvement. See attached.
It occurs to me that the component is moving on the nozzle after visual alignment.
Yes, probably. But how do you know the visual alignment is correct after leaving the camera? I can single step it, but for 'quick' alignment, you still don't get to the 'after' shot. Only the 'before' shot, is that right?
What result do you get if you slow the machine down even more, or use the more precise vision option?
I am thinking the lack of delay for 'place delay' was an issue. What do you set this figure at?
I'm not certain I've explrienced that kind of shift but we are in an air conditional environment.
So, when you start a new day and turn the machine on, is everything aligned just as you left it? Nothing needs adjustment? All feeders are perfect, nozzle alignment is dead on, etc?
Any chance someone could run the csv I posted with some 0402 on their TVM920 and post the results? Just load the 0402 into F1 and you'll be ready to go in 60 seconds.
I'll keep tweaking and tuning. Learning a lot.
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The PCB maybe not even height so we use the nozzle spring to compensate.
Hmm. This got me looking at the nozzle in more detail, and there was some xy play in it, and on further inspection I'd not placed the o-rings and so the nozzles had a tiny bit of extra slop. Stupid on my part, I know.
And with the o-rings in place, the results were very good even at 100% speed.
There is still an issue related to Y spacing. All parts should be equally spaced and as you can see they aren't quite. But this is a big step forward. Thanks to all for the advice. Very impressed on 0402 placement at 100% using quick vision. This was about 3 minutes to place 100 parts.
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Nice work anfang!
I am not really 'running' my machine yet, so any opinions or advice are coming out of observation or logic.
The machine has a fairly simply job to do, so the results you first reported didn't make sense, especially knowing that its using closed-loop steppers.
Glad the o-rings are helping also.
What nozzle size are you using? Worth taking a look on the official Juki site to check what they recommend I'd say.
But generally speaking, that's a very positive result on those 0402 with more improvement to come.
BTW - what 'vision' option are you using with the 100% speed for that test?
Cheers - Peter
Oppps - I meant to mention that you ought to consider running your machine through a 'warm-up' procedure before use. I have no idea exactly what it'll do for repeat ability [other than to improve it]. The rails will warm up and the lubricant won't be as sticky, the belts likewise will change characteristics, the pistons will warm up, and the motor also.
All CNC machines I know of have a warm-up phase prior to operation
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so the results you first reported didn't make sense, especially knowing that its using closed-loop steppers.
Yes, agree. The appeal of this machine (for me) was the feeders, closed loop and feeder count. However, I'm still scratching my head on the location drift over time. I need to get out the dial gauge and understand backlash on the machine and also verify how repeatable homing is.
The smallest nozzle the machine comes with is a Juki 503 (aka #1), which Juki recommends for 0603/0805. The 502 nozzle is for 0402, and i'll order one to try out.
My original thinking was that I'd use 0402 for bypass only to help a bit with board sizes. The 503 nozzle (made for 0603) will tend to tombstone an 0402 part if not lined up with 0.2mm or so when it picks, and the corner of the part can almost fit into the nozzle when stood on end. But as you see, once everything is lined up, over 200 parts, there wasn't any tombstoning. It was pretty interesting watching the 'quick correction' images splash by on the screen because everything was so consistent the camera appeared almost like it wasn't working. In other words, the pick up operation was so good that the camera was just cleaning up the +/- 0.2mm shift and +/- 10 degrees or so rotation that was needed. With the o-rings missing, every image on the screen flashing by was drastically different. So, lesson to myself is that if the pick isn't solid, the correction probably won't be able to fix it. Expect the camera tweak the pick, not fix a bad pick.
I suspect the 502 nozzle for 0402 will be a bit more forgiving on the alignment. Will report when it arrives.
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Hi anfang,
Can you confirm that you are using the updated Software App which has provision for calibrating the axis?
Do you 'still' see the Y drift now that the O-Ring is in place? Could it have been attributed to nozzle movement without the O-Ring perhaps?
What are the variations you are seeing over these tests, and how are you measuring it?
Please attach the photos of the steel scale you are testing with illustrating the variation. I assume you are making this conclusion based on the 'down-camera' images - am I correct? Or are you looking at actual parts that have been placed?
Cheers - Peter
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I found another issue: The X axis servo (the axis driven by a single servo) was loose enough to rock ever so slightly. One of 4 screws was missing completely, another was backed out halfway and a 3rd was barely seated. Fixing this has helped too. I found this after the picture shared above.
The 'drift' issue is best replicated as follows: Align Nozzle 1 perfectly with the up-looking camera and 'capture' the location. Then re-home the machine. Place a few boards. Do whatever. And then go back and look again at nozzle 1 via the up-looking camera. On mine, it needs to be re-centered after, say 60 minutes of use. How much it needs is perhaps +/- 5 clicks (+/-0.05mm) in any direction. At least I'm pretty sure it was any direction. Maybe this was a manifested of the loose servo.
I'm getting the dial gauge out today and will track this down further. My current theory is that the home operation is a bit sloppy (+/- 0.05mm).
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Can I suggest you do this that using the down looking camera and the Stainless Steel scale fixed to the riser blocks?
That way you will be able to isolate the area of movement to either the axis in general, or in the heads nozzles..
It could be an issue weiththe nozzle not being concentric, and it is rotating to that location.
You could also do your same test but ensure there are no nozzle rotations in the programme. Of course looking for other loose fixtures in the head is a good idea also.
I must say that at 5/100 mm, I think you are close to hitting the practical limitations of the design. What resolution tolerance are you expecting or needing it to achieve anfang?
Cheers - Peter
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Anfang, do the stepper/servo attachment screws have a flat washer + spring/shakeproof washer ?
At least we know they did not over-tighten the screws- which is a good idea for steel screws in an (soft) Aluminium thread....
Maybe a case for flat+spring washer and precise torque and Loctite on the threads. and maybe where there are nuts, change to Ny-Loc nuts
glen
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Anfang, do the stepper/servo attachment screws have a flat washer + spring/shakeproof washer ?
At least we know they did not over-tighten the screws- which is a good idea for steel screws in an (soft) Aluminium thread....
Maybe a case for flat+spring washer and precise torque and Loctite on the threads. and maybe where there are nuts, change to Ny-Loc nuts
glen
The easy solution is use Loctite 648 glue to fix the screws!
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Can I suggest you do this that using the down looking camera and the Stainless Steel scale fixed to the riser blocks?
Using nozzle as reference is the same, isn't it? And it makes it easy to ask the machine where is the marked location
You could also do your same test but ensure there are no nozzle rotations in the programme. Of course looking for other loose fixtures in the head is a good idea also.
Yes, agree this is very important. When you zero nozzle locations, make sure all rotations are zero degrees. The pick will happen always with 0 degree rotation, and on the way to the camera or pcb, the rotation will occur. And then the place will happen, and on the way back to the next pick, the rotation will be reset to zero.
So, for consistency and max pick accuracy, always zero nozzles and verify zero degrees. The smallest (Juki 503) nozzle has an ID of 0.6mm, and I'd estimate over the full rotation is also the concentricity error. The Juki nozzle error is very likely a small fraction of that, with the way the Juki is mounted to the stepper being the larger sourch
I must say that at 5/100 mm, I think you are close to hitting the practical limitations of the design. What resolution tolerance are you expecting or needing it to achieve anfang?
Right now I'm just trying to learn limits.
Here's a test I did:
1) Place 400 parts to warm up the machine. These were "air" placed (no pcb, no feeder, quick vision).
2) After placement, zero nozzle 1
3) Go home, run 400 more parts, nozzle location is dead on the entire time. Homing is very consistent.
4) Turn machine off, wait 15 minutes, turn machine back on, check nozzle location. Picture attached ("after powercycle")
5) Air place 200 parts
6) Check location. It is mostly unmoved ("after placement" on picture)
Some observations/theories for others bringing up their machines:
1) Warmup matters a lot. I'd estimate +/- 0.5mm. Run the machine for 5 mins or so before zeroing.
2) Homing repeatability is very good. I'd estimate +/- 0.02mm
3) Board to board repeatability is very good.
3) Something I don't yet understand is what happens between step 4 and 5 above. Something gets a bit out of whack and in the pictures, it's mostly an xaxis issue. Will monitor in the future.
Finally, there is a parameter called "delay before vision" or similar that is important at 100% speed. If you are air placing, then you can always see the system's idea of the "absolute zero" nozzle location during a 'quick' vision check: Every image that flashes on the screen should show the nozzle centered exactly in the crosshairs. If the delay value is set to 0, lots of times an image won't even register. I'm assuming the system treated the recognition as failed since it didn't display anything. If you set it to 50 mS, then you will see the nozzle is't in the center of the cross hairs during each recognition. This most likely means it hasn't settled yet--the various mechanical dampings are still occurring even though the system thinks its stopped. But at 150 mS, the nozzle is dead centered every single time.
So, if you are aiming for small parts and accurate placement, you should be looking at 100 to 150 mS for pick delay, place delay, and pre vision delay. This will ensure the system has settled. And when you are watching images flash by during quick vision, make sure that each image shows the nozzle mostly in the cross hairs. If not, then you have a concentricity problem or the system isn't settled enough. If the nozzle is mostly in the cross hairs and the part isn't, then you have a pick problem.
PS. I also attached my best effort on 0402 placement. It's where I need it.
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Anfang, do the stepper/servo attachment screws have a flat washer + spring/shakeproof washer ?
At least we know they did not over-tighten the screws- which is a good idea for steel screws in an (soft) Aluminium thread....
Maybe a case for flat+spring washer and precise torque and Loctite on the threads. and maybe where there are nuts, change to Ny-Loc nuts
No washer, no lock washer. But the threads go into an octagonal anodized aluminum spacer, so probably there is ~30 threads engaged, so little risk of stripping. I will monitor.
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Of course looking for other loose fixtures in the head is a good idea also.
I've studied this some more. If you remove the nozzle and lower the head, the nozzle 'receiver' will come into focus and you can spin it. Mine looks to be very accurately machined. And I inspected the Juki nozzle some more--there is almost no lateral play in the tip. But when you put the two together, the play materializes.
You would think the shoulder of the receiver should mate with the shoulder of the Juki. That would give a metal on metal contact. But in fact, there is a gap between all the nozzles shoulders and the receivers on my machine. It ranges on my machine from about 0.2mm to 1 mm. This gap is the source of the play I suspect. As you wiggle the nozzle, you can see the gap opening and closing.
Ideally, there'd be a second oring on the Juki to keep it centered and prevent the rock. Looking up into the receiver with a camera, I can see another oring up there it looks like. That seems to be the thing that prevents the shoulder to shoulder mating. Note the mating isn't firm--it's a bit squishy.
I wonder if a precise 1mm spacer/washer between the Juki and the receiver might help this problem.
Unrelated...the nozzles are all different lengths. Where does that get accounted for in the software? Does the spring just soak up the ~2mm difference in length?
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Hi anfang,
You're doing some great investigation here - thanks for sharing it.
So it seems to become apparant that the drift/variation could be in the nozzle/head movement area. Good that it's getting isolated.
In relation to your comment "Using nozzle as reference is the same, isn't it? And it makes it easy to ask the machine where is the marked location", I believe the answer is no. The down-looking camera is 'fixed' in its position relative to the head, the nozzles are not. If you only check the nozzles [as you have just discovered] it is not possible to isolate the area where the error is occuring. If you use the down-looking camera it will confirm if the 'head assembly' is repeating accurately, or otherwise.
O Ring
It sounds like the O Ring is slightly too large for the purpose, and is hold the part from seating correctly.
Do you have access to a supplier where you could purchase a smaller O Ring? You could also try putting some silicon on the O Ring as a lubricant. Silicon-based furniture polish would be OK I think.
Juki Nozzle
Are you saying that they vary in length within the grade/size of nozzle, or that they have different lengths for different grade/size nozzles?
If it's the former, then this would be explained by the expectation that larger nozzles are designed for larger [and thicker] components, if it is the latter, then that's probably the price of purchasing non-OEM products.
When nozzle/head height is set, is there not a provision for setting EACH of the 4 nozzles independently? Ideally, this height would be set on a per component basis to match the component characteristics.
Sounds like another item for the SW App wish list if it doesn't already exist.
Cheers - Peter
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I think once you get the correct nozzle, then your problems will mostly disappear. I don't have any 0402 components on hand, but I am willing to bet that the 503 nozzle is too big. Typical spacing between terminations on 0402 components is 0.7mm, A 503 nozzle is 1mm outside diameter. The terminations on those resistor look rather poor (ie, lots of variation in tinning / solder dimension), so if the nozzle cant seat properly in the flat middle section of the component, it will make a poor vacuum seal, sit cocked on the nozzle, and will likely shift during high speed movements. Just my thoughts....
Thanks though for doing all this testing. I have not had the time to do much work with mine, but I did manage to get things working really well during my initial test, to be confident in its operation, however, I only use 805 and larger comps at the moment, so a 503 nozzle is more than adequate for my needs. I am looking forward to seeing how the 502 nozzle works for your 0402 components.
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If you only check the nozzles [as you have just discovered] it is not possible to isolate the area where the error is occuring. If you use the down-looking camera it will confirm if the 'head assembly' is repeating accurately, or otherwise.
Yes, OK understood. The question to be answered is whether the downlooking camera to nozzle relationship is changing (which I've previously assumed is static) OR if the uplooking camera to nozzle relationship is changing.
It sounds like the O Ring is slightly too large for the purpose, and is hold the part from seating correctly.
I got some shim material, but the result is the same. No matter what, the nozzle will never mate metal on metal. In the default case, the nozzle has ~0.2 gap. If I a add a thin washer, then the 0.2mm gap remains. It is the nature of the oring. Yes, maybe smaller would help.
I will over thanksgiving try to turn a new slot on the lathe and install another oring on the Juki nozzle and see what that does for centering. The good news is that the Juki and the receiver both appear extremely round. It's just the mating that needs a little help. If someone else could also note their runout it would be helpful.
Are you saying that they vary in length within the grade/size of nozzle, or that they have different lengths for different grade/size nozzles?
Yes, the length between the small nozzle (Juki 503) and big nozzle (Juki 506) is about 2mm with the bigger nozzle being about 2mm longer. And if the bigger part is also thicker, then this means a pick on the small nozzle at just touches the tape or PCB will barely compress, and then a pick on the bigger nozzle will compress a lot more (2.5mm more roughly). I don't see a place in the SW to specify nozzle length.
I don't have any 0402 components on hand, but I am willing to bet that the 503 nozzle is too big.
Yes, Juki recommends 502 for 0402 and 503 for 0603/0805. When it comes I will report if 502 can be used for 0402 AND 0603. That would be ideal for me.
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What does the manufacturer specify for bearing slideway lubrication?
Are your bearings crrectly lubricated since poorly lubricated bearings may introduce a bit of stutter in transport.
If the manufacturer does not specify the grease or oil ensure the lubricant shears smoothly without sudden slip.
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(https://s21.postimg.org/z2d58quqf/Untitled_1.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ei8ba9ez7/)Juki Nozzle for different SMD Parts (https://postimage.org/app.php)
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Hi Anfang,
Have you received and tested those smaller Juki nozzles yet?
Did any of those suggestions improve the output result? I think that @ttsthermaltech's comments opened up the issue most pointedly. If you can't get good vacuum contact with the component, it's unlikely it'll stay in place until it is placed on the paste.
Please let's know your outcome - Peter
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I received my TVM920 on Saturday. The quality is very very good ! The finish is at least as good as any machine I have seen.
Packing and accessories, kits etc all excellent. 1st class. A few screws a little loose.. They need some thread-locker / spring-washers.
But in general, excellent. I can recommend this machine it is excellent value for money.
Small problem , now resolved : My genuine Yamaha feeders will not attach to the feeder plates. The feeder plates are too thick..
The Chinese copy feeders will attach but not securely - the attachment handle can be pushed home but only with some deforming of the mechanism. The genuine feeders are heavy and do not bend...
The feeder plates measure 17.17mm thick, at the inner edge.
Yamaha Feeder plates must be 16.0 mm thick at least at the inside edge, 15mm deep.
I have measured my own Yamaha YVL88-ii for 'the truth"
QiHe have said they will replace the out of spec feeder plates no cost . Very good QiHe !
photos: attached
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Things are going fast all of a sudden. I received mine on Friday.
Will measure feeder plate on Tuesday.
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I have contacted the QiHe guys and they are investigating it now, and assure us that they will replace immediately at their cost if they have made a mistake.
Other than perfection straight up [which is impossible with any new product - we've made enough to know], I don't think we could ask for anything more from these guys right now.
Peter
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The feeder plates measure 17.17mm thick, at the inner edge.
Yes, same with mine: 17.19mm. I have a few feeders where the handle looks like it won't stay put, but so far they have. I looked for an adjustment when I found the first feeder where the handle wouldn't go down, but couldn't see a way to adjust it. I ordered more feeders from KingSun (including nozzles) and will monitor those.
If they send a new plate, does it include the air hose fittings so that the quick release hoses just have to be swapped? Or does it require that you take all the old quick release fittings out and swap them? The former seems easy, the latter seems like a long afternoon.
Have you received and tested those smaller Juki nozzles yet?
Not yet, in the air from China but I'm backed up on other things just now so it'll take some time to verify.
BTW, how does everyone adjust the offset between the nozzle and the downlooking camera? Adjusting uplooking camera is easy of course. But the biggest challenge with 0402 is adjusting the offset between the DL camera and the nozzle.
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Hi Anfang
I suggested to them they just ship blank plates
It is fairly easy to change over the air system interface,- very quick actually,
4mm hex to remove 6 bolts that hold plate in
10mm spanner to loose air sockets so can be removed
Phillips #1 screwdriver to remove the rest....
Probably 20 to 30 min per plate.
Or you can mill down your own plates-inside underneath 15mm deep (the genuine feeders have long length grab) and 16mm total height (so about 1.2mm comes off the bottom in a step)
16.0 + /- 0.05. probably +/- 0.1 would do it.
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I think 16mm is not ok the feeder will not fix well.
We used 16.75mm and it works fine.
Has anyone tried to fix the feeder cassette using 16mm plates?
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Yamaha thought 16.0mm was a good size. With 16.75mm, you won't be able to fit genuine yamaha CL feeders and clones that have bene made to spec. Some of the CL feeder Clones are not made to spec, are a lot thinker and will fit on thicker base plates.
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Same here, 17.15mm
Tried one 8mm feeder, but locking it in place doesn't quite feel like I feel it should feel ???
Or you can mill down your own plates-inside underneath
Wutt? You're kidding, right? I didn't buy this machine as a hobby project to get me through the winter, I bought it to do serious work, which is precisely what QiHe sells it for. So I fully expect them to come with a serious answer and a serious solution. I'll wait for Peter to report back on this.
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Same here, 17.15mm
Tried one 8mm feeder, but locking it in place doesn't quite feel like I feel it should feel ???
That means you can't put the handle down?
But the feeder cassette is fixed no shaking?
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Yes, the feeder is fixed, but it feels like I have to force something to get there. Never worked with Yamaha feeders before, so I don't know how it should actually feel.
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It should only need a little force to get fixed you feel a click.
But most important is the feeder need to be fixed not shaking!
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Hopefully this is a simple question for those of you who already have the TVM920? I see from the QiHe website that the footprint is L 1080 * W 805 * H 750mm. Can it be installed on a bench that is 900 deep without fouling the feeders? Not having used the Yamaha-style feeders I don't know if they come down further than the base of the machine. Are the feeders the same for 13" reels as with the smaller ones?
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Well, on this subject all I can offer is my knowledge that an original Yamaha PnP machine has a 16.0mm thick feeder plate at its clamping surface.
It should only need a little force to get fixed you feel a click.
But most important is the feeder need to be fixed not shaking!
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Hi xdave,
The answer you are looking for is YES.
You can sit a TVM920 on a flat surface and not have concern that the feeders will interfere with it.
The feeders sit in the space above the table surface plane, and remain well clear of it.
Cheers- Peter
Hopefully this is a simple question for those of you who already have the TVM920? I see from the QiHe website that the footprint is L 1080 * W 805 * H 750mm. Can it be installed on a bench that is 900 deep without fouling the feeders? Not having used the Yamaha-style feeders I don't know if they come down further than the base of the machine. Are the feeders the same for 13" reels as with the smaller ones?
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QiHe have been most helpful and gracious with this problem, and are modifying their feeder plates and will provide new blank feeder plates (and new spacers) for those who ask for them. They will be supplied blank so you have to changeover the air system interface which is quite easy and faster than you think.
You can also modify the existing plate yourself, contact me directly, I have done a technical drawing of the thickness mod.
Both MrPacketHead and myself own Genuine Yamaha machines, YVL88ii and YV100
These are CL feeder machines.
So we should know what we're talking about.
If you do not own a genuine Yahama machine and/or do not have experience with these CL feeders on genuine Yamaha machines , please do not contribute with idle speculation that confuses those who do not have experience.
POST SCRIPT
Couple of minor issues like feeder plate O ring retention plate is a bit too high (1.6mm) and needs to be recessed (the one with 20 little screws) , that will be fixed, also. It only (in a minor way) affects people trying to use old Yamaha CL feeder (like me) . But it will be the perfect article. I will get CAD dwg for approval. Qihe want it perfect which is good.
I have a large variety of CL feeders and they have variations between them and I am confident we have covered all bases by being 100% compliant.
Glen.
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Hi Xdave
I can confirm no problem with large reels (13" etc) and large feeders (24 etc)
My 920 is currently sitting a couple of inches off the floor and even with the large feeders 24mm or small and large reels, there is still plenty of clearance.
So to answer your question, no problem even with machine sitting on the floor.
My suggestion is that in order to get feeders in and out easily, front clearance needs to be at least 450 and rear clearance 300 (the feeder plate is recessed in the rear) . I have my monitor and kbrd above the machine so I dont need any working room left and right. But access to covers is useful allow min 150. large feeders 24+ wont fit on the rear feeder bank due to the recessed feeder plate - minor issue.
cheers
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So, now that we can securely place those feeders, how do you go about loading them?
I mean, do you just lay it down flat on the bench or is there some kind of jig available in which you can set it upright? I had a jig like that for my ancient DIMA, so I can imagine there's something
available for Yamaha feeders as well.
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Hi Rob
Flat on the bench is fine for loading, but you can get jigs. Or you can do it with a 115 x 16mm thick slab of anything with a couple of holes in the right spot in a vice...
For storage , I have got feeder Trolleys, roughly up 80 on each trolley. QiHe sells Trolleys, or you can buy them . About $175USD seems to be the right number for 80 feeder CL trolleys. I got latest from Qihe.
http://www.wickonsmt.com/sale-7925610-smt-feeder-cart-fuji-machine-feeder-cart-feeder-storage-cart.html (http://www.wickonsmt.com/sale-7925610-smt-feeder-cart-fuji-machine-feeder-cart-feeder-storage-cart.html)
Others like SHenzhen J-wide, goodlucksmt ,
They make them into whatever lengths you need
You can buy simple and complex complete calibration jigs ( for post repair or periodic maintenance) . I have no experience using them.
g
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Has anyone assembled boards yet with this machine ? if so how does it handle 0402 and those kind of things ?
Also can anyone comment on the software; is it usable as is (with possible minor tweaks to pnp file) or is there thing that just can't be fixed at this moment ?
Neoden 4 does not use "real" feeders but it seems to be working well (as in vision) for many people.
I'm just looking at options.
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the actual placement, and quality of machine has been excellent.
the software, sadly, is better than hobby-grade, but frustratingly non-pro.
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Ever tought about retrofitting the controller with something else ?
Their closed loop stepper / servo probably just uses normal stepper input. It would probably be the fastest way to get it working.
The thing that holds me back is that these pnp TVM920 , Neoden4 are
expensive enough that it should just work (good) enough.
It still seems that OpenPNP or modding the liteplacer sw (.net) is one of the best way to go at this moment.
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Sure if something was available I'll try it. But, currently the machine works, is under warranty, and is used for production. So any modifications needed or down-time required means it won't happen.
Last post in the openpnp thread was a month ago, I'm not holding my breath.
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If we receive the interface description we build a DLL to operate the machine with our VisionPlacer software.
I think there is a similar controller inside like TVM802.
Do they use ethernet connection or USB to talk to the controller?
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People who have the machine can you show some of the software (screenshots) and describe where
the major problems are.
I'm trying to figure out if this machine is usable "enough" for some 0402 passives and some qfn / bga work.
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If we receive the interface description we build a DLL to operate the machine with our VisionPlacer software.
I think there is a similar controller inside like TVM802.
Do they use ethernet connection or USB to talk to the controller?
Ethernet, ar-systems has started work on reverse-engineering the TVM802 protocol already. Cameras are via a cheap CVBS capture card.
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I asked Qihe and they are going to make a video from setup to placing of a board with mixed components.
As in passives and IC's. They are not working on openpnp support at this moment.
For the people that are really interested in this product just contact them and ask them questions.
If you want openpnp support communicate that to them. If they have enough demand for that then
they probably will work on supporting it.
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And just a tip. If you find a problem or a software bug than it is important
to write a very simple step for step procedure of what is wrong. Pictures with arrows showing directly
what is wrong goes a long way with any developer.
I do these step:
1.
2.
3.
This happens:
[picture with arrows]
[some text what is happening]
This should happen:
[picture with arrows]
[some text about it]
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Edit:
New TVM920 software will have specific vision settings per feeder.
Vacuum setting is just one value for all things.
release date tbd.
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Heard that a new software version will be out in the next few days... I am just starting production on mine, likely tomorrow. Found one little annoying bug in the vision, and it appears that if it can't find the center (bad image / lighting), it just keeps trying and never fails. Found that knocking the component off the nozzle will make the machine do a dump operation and then re-pick, but gotta get a bug report to Qihe on that one. Had pretty good results the other night using nothing smaller than 805s, but I want to get things a little better yet.
Vision settings per component / feeder would be a big step up.
R.
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Update list:
-specific vision settings per feeder
-component rotation setting per feeder
I'm trying to get the whole list of changes that have been made.
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Heard that a new software version will be out in the next few days... I am just starting production on mine, likely tomorrow. Found one little annoying bug in the vision, and it appears that if it can't find the center (bad image / lighting), it just keeps trying and never fails. Found that knocking the component off the nozzle will make the machine do a dump operation and then re-pick, but gotta get a bug report to Qihe on that one. Had pretty good results the other night using nothing smaller than 805s, but I want to get things a little better yet.
Vision settings per component / feeder would be a big step up.
R.
I had this same problem and it was quite frustrating, until I realized the camera was picking up a reflection instead of the part outline, and simply keeping the shades down eliminated the issue
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I'd recommend also removing the piece of Acrylic which originally sits above the camera [and the LEDs].
I have removed it completely on my machine and have replaced it with a 47mm UV filter, which just sits directly on top of the lens itself. It has the benefit of protecting the lens still, but does not suffer from the flair or the potential for reflections which can be caused and captured in the original Acrylic which was mounted on the top of the housing.
Cheers - Peter
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There are so many auto threshold kind of vision operators. I have implemented various methods (by hand so no opencv) before.
Also finding the shape of a components is pretty easy. Especially since the component body's area is already on the center of the cam.
you just need to work inside out instead of finding a shape that's somewhere in the camera view.
But it seems very difficult for them to implement things like that.
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Yes, agree Spikee, but none of this helps or makes any difference if the 'image to be recognised' is contaminated with irrelevant shapes such as reflections, as DTF points out and experienced.
Cheers - Pete
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you could just use a "fillholes" kind of operator but yeah ... less processing is better.
I was not talking about reflection by the way but in general PNP vision operation.
One might almost just make their own software ...
--
If they just would opensource their software or their API ::)
It is not like they sell thousands of these things. It is probably in the hundreds. Better software will get them more sales
and a better name. Current SW is probably meh at best. A decent programmer could replicate it in a short time.
So being afraid of getting copied is not a good argument. But yeah...
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you could just use a "fillholes" kind of operator but yeah ... less processing is better.
I was not talking about reflection by the way but in general PNP vision operation.
One might almost just make their own software ...
--
If they just would opensource their software or their API ::)
It is not like they sell thousands of these things. It is probably in the hundreds. Better software will get them more sales
and a better name. Current SW is probably meh at best. A decent programmer could replicate it in a short time.
So being afraid of getting copied is not a good argument. But yeah...
I'll reiterate my offer that if someone sends me one of these I will get OpenPnP running on it. Then there will be a completely open source software stack that can be used and improved for these machines. If there are enough people interested enough to throw a couple hundred bucks at the problem we can make it work.
Jason
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Jason,
#1. Thanks again for writing a great piece of software. I know it is a tonne of work, and you deserve a pile of respect for it.
I think the key issue at the moment, is that the firmware in the Qihe's is good enough, and works well enough that spending the time to create a driver is low on the totem pole. I want to do it myself, but the problem is that Qihe won't give up the protocol. Odd, as it only adds value to their machine. It is not like we want to open source what they have done so far in terms of software, but OpenPNP is orders of magnitude ahead of them, and they should recognize that it would only strengthen their market by either writing their own driver, or just releasing the protocol, so we can do it ourself.
I my opinion, and based on the motion driver in the current control board (not linearly interpolated), and since it lacks certain hardware assisted features (vac pressure specifically), it would be faster and easier to just rewrite the firmware for the existing board and expose everything to openPNP over ethernet.
What i want to do (in the new year), with some help from a few of my friends (Thommo and GlenEnglish) that we design a complete new control board, with extra IO capabilities (specifically analog for sensors, encoder interfaces for X & Y, and serial / CanBus) that is plug and play with the current wiring, yet fully openPNP compatible, so that it would be a 15 minute swapover from the existing board, and offer a future proof control system.
The Qihe 920 hardware is brilliant, and I would not hesitate to purchase a second unit when the need arises, but they need better software. not that it is buggy, just lacking in features, that a machine base of this capability can truly offer.
R.
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I'd be thrilled to try some new software. And spend time on development. But I don't think anyone is going to send you $10k of equipment.
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I assume this machine just uses closed loop steppers that have the normal step input.
It would be rather easy to connect this to TinyG controller board or gecko G540 4-axis motor controller.
I assume the feeders are "stupid" and only require a solenoid to be switched on for x time.
This could probably be solved with the TinyG or just make another arduino shield that can control the solenoids which you
control by sending a simple uart command like "Feed 1".
By doing it this way it would also be easy to convert any of the other Chinese pick and place machines with feeders.
Instead of making / supporting a separate controller for each machine just swap out the controller.
Using this method you also don't have to risk breaking the machine and have warranty issues because it is more or less plug an play.
And you can plug it out with ease.
If this is the best machine to choose at this price-point in feb/march than I will get one.
IF the software still sucks or I need special features than I will definitely consider doing a retrofit using the described method
and use openpnp.
It has been done before using this method:
https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Retrofitting-a-Zeva-460---Part-1 (https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Retrofitting-a-Zeva-460---Part-1)
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They are indeed regular 4-wire steppers (with feedback) and regular china stepper drivers.
I don't know why you guys are so interested in modifying your machines, imo the hardware is fine. Actually pretty good. And any hardware modifications needed to run 3rd party software would pretty much be a non-starter for me, introducing downtime to the machine. Also adding time needed to go back to working state.
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Its not that I want to modify the machine, but considering the exceptional build quality, this machine begs to do more than it's software is capable of. I know it pretty much works out of the box, but there are some things that could really benefit the machine (and the user)...
1) Vacuum sensing of components at each of the four heads
2) Brightness / Color / Exposure control of the up vision LED's
3) Auto nozzle changer
4) Multiple cameras and or zoom control
Those are my big wants... All of which could be easily added to a new control board, and most are already featured in openPNP. Yes, it could be done with a bunch of tiny-G or other, but the 9 steppers on the 920 make if difficult to use a single motion unit. A custom one would be ideal, as you could likley port much of the motion code necessary from one of the open source variants, but having the ability to switch axis within a single controller just makes things simpler.
My $0.02 worth.
R.
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Just arrived mine.
Well packed.
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4) Multiple cameras and or zoom control
You don't really need zoom, assuing you start with a camera with decent resolution for the smallest parts.
The issue of parts that are too large for the field of view can be fixed by imaging multiple times & moving the part - although slower, chances are there won't be enough large parts to make a big enough speed difference to warrant a different optical FOV.
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Just arrived mine.
Well packed.
Please keep us updated
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Its not that I want to modify the machine, but considering the exceptional build quality, this machine begs to do more than it's software is capable of. I know it pretty much works out of the box, but there are some things that could really benefit the machine (and the user)...
1) Vacuum sensing of components at each of the four heads
2) Brightness / Color / Exposure control of the up vision LED's
3) Auto nozzle changer
4) Multiple cameras and or zoom control
Those are my big wants... All of which could be easily added to a new control board, and most are already featured in openPNP. Yes, it could be done with a bunch of tiny-G or other, but the 9 steppers on the 920 make if difficult to use a single motion unit. A custom one would be ideal, as you could likley port much of the motion code necessary from one of the open source variants, but having the ability to switch axis within a single controller just makes things simpler.
My $0.02 worth.
R.
It really has no vacuum sensing on each head?
How does it know a part was picked up?
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Its not that I want to modify the machine, but considering the exceptional build quality, this machine begs to do more than it's software is capable of. I know it pretty much works out of the box, but there are some things that could really benefit the machine (and the user)...
1) Vacuum sensing of components at each of the four heads
2) Brightness / Color / Exposure control of the up vision LED's
3) Auto nozzle changer
4) Multiple cameras and or zoom control
Those are my big wants... All of which could be easily added to a new control board, and most are already featured in openPNP. Yes, it could be done with a bunch of tiny-G or other, but the 9 steppers on the 920 make if difficult to use a single motion unit. A custom one would be ideal, as you could likley port much of the motion code necessary from one of the open source variants, but having the ability to switch axis within a single controller just makes things simpler.
My $0.02 worth.
R.
It really has no vacuum sensing on each head?
How does it know a part was picked up?
Vision presumably
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Its not that I want to modify the machine, but considering the exceptional build quality, this machine begs to do more than it's software is capable of. I know it pretty much works out of the box, but there are some things that could really benefit the machine (and the user)...
1) Vacuum sensing of components at each of the four heads
2) Brightness / Color / Exposure control of the up vision LED's
3) Auto nozzle changer
4) Multiple cameras and or zoom control
Those are my big wants... All of which could be easily added to a new control board, and most are already featured in openPNP. Yes, it could be done with a bunch of tiny-G or other, but the 9 steppers on the 920 make if difficult to use a single motion unit. A custom one would be ideal, as you could likley port much of the motion code necessary from one of the open source variants, but having the ability to switch axis within a single controller just makes things simpler.
My $0.02 worth.
R.
It really has no vacuum sensing on each head?
How does it know a part was picked up?
Vision, you can choose per feeder whether you want to check for component mispick. If it falls off between camera and placement, this won't be detected.
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Vision, you can choose per feeder whether you want to check for component mispick. If it falls off between camera and placement, this won't be detected.
In the same way as if a part moves after the camera it will be mis-placed.
If it's made it to the camera, chances are it's fine from there on - if not something is probaly marginal and needs fixing
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Our machines check the vacuum value before placement again so it know the part was placed or not.
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My feeder plate is also 17.2mm instead of 16mm :( No one feeder can be installed.
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Daisy from Qihe promised that will send replacement for the feeder plates, once they have tested.
Daisy says that the feeder can be forced, to clamp well, but for me the needed force and 1.2mm difference is to high, and Im affraid that something will bend or break.
No one have found this issue except Glen ? For others the feeders fits well ?
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@zszabo
The issue seems to be with original Yamaha feeders only. I checked with a 24mm, an 8mm and a vibration feeder, all Chinese clones ordered with the machine. The 24mm and the vibration feeder lock perfectly well with a nice 'click'. The 8mm does not have the same click and it does feel a bit like I have to force something, However, it registers well and sits very stable, so I don't expect any problems.
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@zszabo
The issue seems to be with original Yamaha feeders only. I checked with a 24mm, an 8mm and a vibration feeder, all Chinese clones ordered with the machine. The 24mm and the vibration feeder lock perfectly well with a nice 'click'. The 8mm does not have the same click and it does feel a bit like I have to force something, However, it registers well and sits very stable, so I don't expect any problems.
Rob can you please show us a picture of the vibration feeder?
Thanks
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Hi,
My Feeder Plates are also oversized and are being replaced.
You're not alone zszabo 😜
Daisy from Qihe promised that will send replacement for the feeder plates, once they have tested.
Daisy says that the feeder can be forced, to clamp well, but for me the needed force and 1.2mm difference is to high, and Im affraid that something will bend or break.
No one have found this issue except Glen ? For others the feeders fits well ?
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Thanks for feedbacks.
RobK_NL@
My feeders came with machine, so they are not original Yamaha feeders, but they clam is 16mm width too like original ones.
I tried just the 8mm one yet, but will check others too.
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Peter@
Yours have been replaced with new plates from Qihe or You have made new plates ?
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Rob can you please show us a picture of the vibration feeder?
Thanks
They are these:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/yamaha-YV-series-smt-stick-vibrating_60502590105.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/yamaha-YV-series-smt-stick-vibrating_60502590105.html)
Don't know if they are from this same source, but that's exactly what they look like. I have a 3-lane and a 5-lane version.
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Replacement Plates are on the way next week I hope!
Peter@
Yours have been replaced with new plates from Qihe or You have made new plates ?
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Found another software bug, when manually locating fiducials before placement, the machine is in 'fast' jog mode instead of 'slow' so precisely locating them is pretty difficult... in fact the fast/slow jog mode button is missing entirely from the Run screen. Notified them
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Suggested mod:
Do it : before further use.
Why : UP LED current is uncontrolled and could lead to failure of the up LED array (individual LEDS) . There is no current limit resistor...Thermal runaway occurs.
Fix : insert 2.2 ohm , 1/4 W resistor in series with the UP LED power wiring.
Mod : reduces maximum LED current, instead of the Rds ON of the MOSFET switch being the limiting factor...
Current before : ~ 500-600mA
Expected current post mod- ~ 300mA. It's not critical. As long as it is a bit less.
Determined: Using Thermal camera, voltmeter, lightmeter, with assembly removed from machine.
Result : LEDs run cooler, less likely to blow up. reduced variation between LEDs. Plenty of light range for the camera.
How to:
There are a pair of wires that run from the microcontroller PCB on the LHS of the machine to the UP led block. There is a 3 pin connector onto the microcontroller PCB. (two wires used).
You can access this cable by removing the UP light assembly (2 x HEX key bolts) (after 4 cross head screws for the cover) , and dragging up the wiring a little. Or you can access on the LHS compartment, it is labelled UP-LIGHT. Top of the Microcontroller PCB .
Things are well labelled in there, actually. Good on QiHe for that.
Down LED light to TBD.. Most likely same, needs some series R...
Easy mod, and QiHe to fix.
Glen.
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Spent an hour on this tonight... got wireshark running on the Atom PC (internal)
First, before you start :
disc microcontroller ethernet and plug into internet
set adaptor dhcp
download drivers for usb network adaptor, plug it in
get that working
set board eth adaptor back to what it was 192.168.0.10 and set new USB network adaptor (plug in the internet) to dhcp , plug into inet
enable remote desktop
create QIHe user password
share drives, set everyone sharing priv full ctl
ctlpanel system- performance - turn off visual effects (set for max performance)
copy c:\users\qihe to safe local on another pc
ctl panel , region and language set to english *or whatever)
set keyboard to english etc
install wireshark 32 bit ( I downloaded installer from another machine)
Voila! -I do all the work via remote desktop on the USB network adaptor.
Fairly simple protocol.
regular tick also handles vacuum events and other things..
like the 5th byte is the vaccum control
feeder ctl pretty easy, just bit-wise on 05xxx packets (12 bytes)
simple so far
motion obvious, also.
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Can you post a pcap file?
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As follow-up to previous post, I got some more feeders and nozzles (including the 502 nozzles for 0402) and I'll note the 502 nozzles will be a welcome addition to anyone's setup. These were from KingSun. Fit was fine. O-rings not included. Runout was fine. The 0402 nozzle opening is a bit hard to see on the camera (not enough pixels), but you can make it out.
What a difference it makes on pickup. Recall 0402 tending to get picked up sideways with the 503 nozzle. Rock solid with 502.
The Kingsun feeders look absolutely identical to what I ordered from QiHe, and were about 10% cheaper. their sales person watched the transaction all the way through (including a mail to ask if I was happy), they were shipped DHL (about $250 for 15 feeders). They have the same issue on completely locking down--I also have a thick feeder plate. But they seem to hang on fine.
$10/nozzle. They required wire transfer.
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There was a small tub of some kind of lubricant in my TVM920 kit. What is that for? Rails or pneumatics? Was this covered in docs anyplace? Thanks
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Rails
There was a small tub of some kind of lubricant in my TVM920 kit. What is that for? Rails or pneumatics? Was this covered in docs anyplace? Thanks
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"There was a small tub of some kind of lubricant in my TVM920 kit. What is that for? Rails or pneumatics? Was this covered in docs anyplace? Thanks"
it is for when you are bored and single
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Hi Anfang
Good you got the 0402s placing well !
All my new feeders and associated stuff is all from Kingsun. Also spares for my Yamaha....
They are a good company. QiHe feeders a little more money, but one lot of freight clearing cost....
I will spend more time tonight on the protocol reverse engineering.
g
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Great news Anfang, and a simple fix too.
Please attach some of your successful 0402 placements in a pic if you get a chance.
Cheers - Pete
As follow-up to previous post, I got some more feeders and nozzles (including the 502 nozzles for 0402) and I'll note the 502 nozzles will be a welcome addition to anyone's setup. These were from KingSun. Fit was fine. O-rings not included. Runout was fine. The 0402 nozzle opening is a bit hard to see on the camera (not enough pixels), but you can make it out.
What a difference it makes on pickup. Recall 0402 tending to get picked up sideways with the 503 nozzle. Rock solid with 502.
The Kingsun feeders look absolutely identical to what I ordered from QiHe, and were about 10% cheaper. their sales person watched the transaction all the way through (including a mail to ask if I was happy), they were shipped DHL (about $250 for 15 feeders). They have the same issue on completely locking down--I also have a thick feeder plate. But they seem to hang on fine.
$10/nozzle. They required wire transfer.
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$250 for 15 feeders
That comes out to around $17 per piece? I thought they are at least $50 per piece.
If they are really around that price, I don't think there's any reason to choose a pick and place with the fixed feeder. :D
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I think that $250 was the DHL shipping cost.
Paid $60 for my 8mm feeders (45 of them).
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$60 for 45 that comes out 1.33 :) And probably free shipping.
Removed my feeder plates.
Waiting for results from Peter or QiHe.
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Pic again, as I see cant be displayed for some reason.
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I think that $250 was the DHL shipping cost.
Okay, I reread the sentence again. :D
I know there's quite a number of TVM920 owner here, does anyone know like for a particular size of tape width, how many slots it occupies?
On a TVM920, it has 56 slots that can hold up to 56 8 mm CL feeder.
So, how many slots does a 12 mm, 16 mm and 24 mm feeder needs?
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$60 for 45 that comes out 1.33 :)
Oh dear, I stepped right into that one, didn't I :-[
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I think that $250 was the DHL shipping cost.
Okay, I reread the sentence again. :D
I know there's quite a number of TVM920 owner here, does anyone know like for a particular size of tape width, how many slots it occupies?
On a TVM920, it has 56 slots that can hold up to 56 8 mm CL feeder.
So, how many slots does a 12 mm, 16 mm and 24 mm feeder needs?
12mm takes up 3 slots, but if you place it next to another 12mm, you can place feeders every 2nd slot.
16mm takes up 3, but if you place it next to another 16mm, you can again place feeders every 2nd slot, they takes up 5 slots for 2 feeders.
24mm takes up 3 slots, but can only be placed on the front stack. Maybe a 12 or 16mm feeder can be squeezed in next to one, I don't know.
Don't know about larger feeders I didn't purchase any.
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That also depends on your feeder spacing. This does not seem to be a standard. I have seen feeder plates where the distance is 18mm, 20mm or even 24 mm between two slots.
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a morning's work... 6 hours to be exact
straightforward. right down to the limit switches.
attached
it is written as a journal as I figure stuff out with commentary,
ADDENDUM
ADDED control of up and down light
There is a startup readout from the MCU board
all comms are on a single UDP port, nothing else...
The motion commands all but rotation are absolute
rotation is a bit different.
all the on/offs are bitwise...
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Great work Glen !!!!
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Now is Open PNP time....
What are people going to be running- Linux or Windows ?
The local PC will run either... you could even dual boot it.
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As Im Altium/Win user I preffer Win.
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There's no need to complicate the 920 world anymore I feel - Windows is likely to be more 'universally understood' by a broader range of ultimate users, so I say stick with Windows for sure.
Now is Open PNP time....
What are people going to be running- Linux or Windows ?
The local PC will run either... you could even dual boot it.
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Will be both. as my OpenPNP runs here on linux...
Will be a java HAL with network loopback interface to C++
so will work for win32 or pthreads.....
needs to be at least windows because it will NEED to run on the QiHe windows box- HOWEVER it is only an N2600 ATOM and this represents some bottlenecks for good fast vision processing, so we will have to wait and see. It is an older Atom without many of the more (desirable and modern) MMX/ SSE extensions....
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All of the atoms came out way later than MMX-SSE appeared, so they all have all of these supported.
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On the "Sys Config" screen there is a "save" button towards the bottom. Does anyone know where that saves the settings? I know you can import/export. I took a quick look with ProcMon and didn't see anything obvious. If I click Save, there's a ton of registry read/write, but they are to microsoft keys.
Would someone mind exporting their Sys Config and sharing it? It is an easy to read text file. I know I'll have to re-do most settings. That is OK. But I have hosed mine pretty good.
Thanks
BTW, 0603 parts pick up fine on the head made for 0402.
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a morning's work... 6 hours to be exact
Very impressive!
BTW, ProcMon (microsoft sys internals) will capture all the UDP send/receive at the app level. Pretty handy in a pinch
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The new 16mm thick feeder plates arrived this morning from QIHe,
I tried a range of feeders, new, old, FV, CL, vibration, - they fit all the feeders perfectly and precisely.
very good QiHe ! This was all at QiHe's expense. So, bravo.
I will fit them into the machine after lunch and then advise QiHe if they are all right, to proceed...
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I've now got an app going that runs on the internal PC on the qihe TVM920. IE the TVM920 PC application is no more.
it talks directly to the TVM920's microcontroller PCB. (UDP port 8701)
It's the TCP socket interface to OpenPNP, which I think you will want to run OpenPNP on a stronger computer than the internal N2600 (AR_systems - it does not have SSE4.x )
it's written in C++ Builder. but I am using no special C libs.
Just working through interface stuff with openPNP right now like feeder opening, pick, advance etc . all very basic . maybe a few more hours of work.
see attachment
UPDATED
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Hi Glen,
I am very new to OpenPnP but just to get the concept.
Do we need a GUI at the TVM920 Atom board?
Without having experience with OpenPnP I feel running it on an external powerful PC
and heaving Ethernet connectivity to the TVM920 will be pretty convenient.
(Porting everything to the internal Atom board will be always an option later I think)
Or is this GUI you have shown mostly for convenience during your OpenPnP integration?
Thank you!
Dimitar
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Hi Glen,
I am very new to OpenPnP but just to get the concept.
Do we need a GUI at the TVM920 Atom board?
Without having experience with OpenPnP I feel running it on an external powerful PC
and heaving Ethernet connectivity to the TVM920 will be pretty convenient.
(Porting everything to the internal Atom board will be always an option later I think)
Or is this GUI you have shown mostly for convenience during your OpenPnP integration?
Thank you!
Dimitar
It would be best to run it on the internal PC if possible, and if not, an external dedicated machine. Sharing a machine running PnP with anything else is very risky, considering the potential loss of parts if a job stops and can't be continued.
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My application 'TVMdriver program' is the intermediate between OpenPNP (generic interface) and the TVM920 internals.
In the TVM920, there is a microcontroller PCB that deals with everything. The internal ATOM based PC runs QiHe's application.
Communications between the two devices is by ethernet UDP. In the OpenPNP system, we do not use the QiHe PC application at all.
The TVMdriver program has a socket interface (ethernet) to the Microcontroller PCB, and another socket interface that connects to OpenPNP.
The TVM driver program has some manual controls, but these would NOT normally be used for open-PNP.
The only reason there is a GUI on the TVMdriver application is so that I could test all the functions and interface. It would not normally need to be accessed or used. All control in Open PNP mode is from the OpenPNP GUI. The TVMdriver GUi is only for test and verification. (but- the TVM driver can operate at the same time as OpenPNP no problem - there are multiple message queues and three threads) .
It is my opinion that the internal N2600 ATOM PC in the TVM920 does not have sufficient power to provide a good user experience with OpenPNP busy.
So, there are two options
1) Run the TVM driver on the internal PC , and run OpenPNP on a external PC. Connect via LAN. ethernet.
2) change the internal Mini ITX Atom N2600 PC to something like a Mini ITX (1151 pin cpu) with something like a G4400, or G3900 CPU. So total spend would be about USD200. Of course you could put a small Intel i3-6100 in the same Mini ITX motherboard (USD99) for another $100 etc... But I think 2 core, 4 thread processor is a good idea, even a low end processor. Support for SSE4.x is likely useful for the Vision stuff. The low end older processors don't support these multimedia extensions.
I think an external PC is just easier, but some people might like the all in one integrated solution...
The internal PC has Chinese Windows . You cant do much with it, so you might as well just run the TVM driver on it.
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It is my opinion that the internal N2600 ATOM PC in the TVM920 does not have sufficient power to provide a good user experience with OpenPNP busy.
What do you mean by "user experience" ?
The only vaguely taxing thing ought to be vision - everything else is UI, almost all of which is only needed when not running a job
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It is my opinion that the internal N2600 ATOM PC in the TVM920 does not have sufficient power to provide a good user experience with OpenPNP busy.
What do you mean by "user experience" ?
The only vaguely taxing thing ought to be vision - everything else is UI, almost all of which is only needed when not running a job
Vision is not particularly taxing in OpenPnP. There's really very few actual vision operations and most of them are pretty simple. The most CPU heavy thing in OpenPnP is processing, rendering and displaying the images from the cameras. I typically tell people to run their cameras at 5 FPS or less to keep performance high.
It should be noted that OpenPnP has *never* had any optimizations done. I generally try to write performant code, but it's pretty much at the bottom of the priority list since most people run OpenPnP on powerful, modern desktop PCs.
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right. machine interface done....
not bad for an RF/analog man I guess, I have to do computer crap every now and then.
even got the mapping of the front three green, red, yellow buttons
and the command to lock/ unlock the cals and NVM
I'll add into the driver program the ability to pull out ALL the (cal) values out at boot , just like the qihe program does. (48 ints)
I want to see if they vary much between machines and understand any variations
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I poked about a bit on the vision in the TVM920. I recall others had too on this thread, but I cannot find it now.
In the TVM920 is an analog capture card based on Philips SAA7134. It opened in a few lines of AForge in c#. At first I though there would be two streams, but instead it's a single stream and you just switch the camera input mux and keeping inhaling the same stream.
The native resolution looks to be 320x240. In the attached, I grabbed the 320x240 image, did a high quality upsample to 640x480, converted to grayscale, converted to binary (black/white based on pixel thresh), did a blob detection, recognized a quadrilateral, determined the corners and computed and drew normals.
At 640x480 it takes about 25 mS on my desktop without any optimization. Tomorrow I will try the Atom in the TVM and report the detection time there.
The accuracy is a bit better if I upsample to 2X resolution. If it don't and process at 320x240 it's still pretty good, and the recognition time is about 1/4 at 7 mS.
Placing at 3600 parts/hour is about 1 second/part. Even if the atom takes 100 mS at 640x480 it's probably pretty negligible. I think 0603 doesn't even need vision. So the question is mostly moot.
I really like the idea of the current PC running everything so that I could go back and forth between QiHe app and whatever comes next. I browse the web over a USB wifi dongle while the machine is placing now, and it's never stuttered a bit.
PS. In the attached picture is an 0603 capture run through the primitive recognizer noted above.
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Nice. Very nice.
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right. machine interface done....
not bad for an RF/analog man I guess, I have to do computer crap every now and then.
even got the mapping of the front three green, red, yellow buttons
and the command to lock/ unlock the cals and NVM
I'll add into the driver program the ability to pull out ALL the (cal) values out at boot , just like the qihe program does. (48 ints)
I want to see if they vary much between machines and understand any variations
Damn, very impressive.
What type of cal data is stored in the NVM?
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Someone was asking about this
they are stored in the C:\users\QiHe\Desktop\<machineSN> \ .par file
the .par files has the goods.
there is also some other stuff stored in the param.dat file at
c\Users\QiHe\Desktop\SucfaceMountTouch_EN_Belt_V1.24Beta4
Anfang, to answer your question- NVM ( I think- I am not 100% sure but >51%) scale factors for various things. I dont completely know, looks like I don't really have to know, either. I read them all out. I am looking into some of them now . Most of the stuff on the QiHe GUI is not required by the hardware at all. just scale factors for the various axis.
As for the motherboard Atom performance . Yeah, I guess the thing is "Your mileage may vary" , and it depends on your own preferences.
I'd suggest putting a mini ITX with a I3-xxxx into it if you want a single package.
and the Chinese windows is a pain even when you set it to ENGLISH language and keyboard (or whatever language you prefer) .
HOMING
Homing : in my travels in wireshark etc, and measuring things etc, I think the home function in the QIHe software may not be deterministic.
(we of course will have my shiny new home function....)
This will cause perhaps a 0.1mm error , maybe more on the homing.
Leading it to think that it is somewhere where it is not quite
What is the impact of this ?
Well the feeders are at entered locations... so if you are trying to pick up 0402s, this might matter, unless you do a machine fiducial (which I recommend) .IE so you KNOW where the feeders are even if the 'home' location was miles off....
g
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Hi Glen, I was the guy that had made a request on the file contents. I documented as much as I could in the attached xls file (delete the txt extension).
The PAR file holds the parameters I was looking for. These formats are kind of a mess. Some files use micrometers, others use mm. Some use comma delimited fields, others just one item per line. The fact that some use micrometers would suggest that perhaps those are suited for embedded in the controller along with cal data so that the embedded half only deals with ints.
The PAR file holds the system settings. If you assign a name to your feeder, however, It's not here. it's in the DAT file.
The DAT file holds the various names you assign, and and the various feeder locations in micrometers. It's the exact same data as the PAR file. Just different format. No idea which takes precedence.
The QHD file is what is actually exported in the Edit->Export menu. It's fairly readable. But some parameters here really should be system settings. Things like pick and place delay should be in system settings, not specific to a job.
And the biggest mystery of all is....in the SysConfig menu there is a big fat save button. When you push that, nothing gets written to files according to procmon. There are a few registry writes that are inconsequential. And yet, if you change something, save it, and then terminate the app, the setting somehow persists. Now, procmon doesn't tell you much about the UDP activity other than it happened.
I wonder if the act of pushing 'save' pushes the part of the Param.DAT file that is in micrometers down to the embedded controller.
For a while, I also thought things like camera location might be held in the controller so that you just tell it to go to the camera and it happens. But looking at your doc you posted, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Maybe you could look at whether or not any udp stuff of significance happens when you push the SysConfig->Save button
I hope the xls helps you on your discoveries. You are doing god's work here.
And amen on the machine fiducial. I have a Madell DP2006 machine and it uses a machine fiducial. I visually checked the accuracy of home while tracking down by errors that seemed to come and go, and though it might be 10% of my overall errors.
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As for the motherboard Atom performance . Yeah, I guess the thing is "Your mileage may vary" , and it depends on your own preferences.
The day the QiHe app becomes not needed, I will do precisely this. Along with a big touch monitor. But I'd hate to swap motherboards and then find out the QiHi app was tied to the motherboard.
I think the up camera could also benefit from a really high quality camera. I've done a lot with Blackfly USB3 cameras and they are great cameras. Very fast response, great API. Lots of lenses. So, when the day comes for a new motherboard, it'll be USB 3 for me too.
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HI Anfang,
The QiHe is certainly NOT tied to the motherboard.... I have done 100% of my testing via network, with the internal PC powered OFF.
agreed on the Point Grey cameras, however, the OpenPNP guys report very good results with rather basic cheap USB cameras... remember OpenPNP does all image lens correction etc. But certainly better camera useful. see my blogs at glenenglish.com (wordpress)
I have dual monitors on my QIHe, so I have the PC monitor and 2 x LCD video monitors on the machine with a 2 way video splitter.
As for the SAVE button, I've seen it update file times, but not change any contents !
I will check if the SAVE writes to the controller...
cheers
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@Peter
Once attache the plates to the machine could you check please the plates stability ?
QiHe reported that 16mm is not a good size as the feeders are wobbling as You may see on attached video made by them.
Please check this too and report back.
Thank You !
Zoltan
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Hi Zoltan
I have verified that the 16mm feeder thickness is perfect.....- for my new chinese Cl feeders and for the genuine yamaha feeders CL and FV type.
and of course it has to be- t is not the same as the genuine machine.
Does anyone else here apart from Mr PacketHead and myself have a genuine Yamaha ? No ? well then.
If they wobble it is because the feeders they are using have been damaged by trying to put them on 17.2mm plate......
and besides, the machine does not wobble so the feeders should not.
It is possible to stretch / bend the CL feeder linkage by trying to put them on the 17.2mm plate.....
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Hi Zoltan,
I concur with Glen's findings on the Feeder plate thickness - 16.0mm is correct.
Of course .. with sufficient force, everything will move [wobble]. I saw the QiHe video as it was being produced [by them], via Skype, and I also saw the 'wobble' they referred to and initially panicked about. It turns out they we using an 'old and worn' feeder, which no doubt was probably the 'cause' of this issue in the first instance, and possibly became worn due to it being forced onto their thick feeder plates.
However, just for clarity, the feeders are NOT clamped as 'tightly' as ones which have been 'forced' to fit [by applying excessive pressure to the plastic clamping handle], however there is no necessity for them to be this tight in any event.
If your machine is mounted correctly onto a stable surface, then leveled and aligned, there will be no appreciable 'wobble' using the new 16.0mm feeder plates. If not, you'll surely have 'other' issues you'll need to deal with in any event.
Mine will be installed into the machine tomorrow if things go to plan.
PS: don't forget to place some silicon lubricant onto the feeder pin which is mated with the O-ring for the air feed!
Cheers - Pete
@Peter
Once attache the plates to the machine could you check please the plates stability ?
QiHe reported that 16mm is not a good size as the feeders are wobbling as You may see on attached video made by them.
Please check this too and report back.
Thank You !
Zoltan
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Hi Peter,
Strange as I told them exactly same "probably the 'cause' of this issue in the first instance, and possibly became worn due to it being forced onto their thick feeder plates.", but Daisy told that they used new feeders, same as mines. So this is why Im curious, how it really behaves. May be the 16mm is correct for original feeders, but may be the copies need some more. May be a 16.5 or something like that would be accepted by original feeders and could be good for copy market feeders too.
Sorry Im just thinking about, but lets wait your results.
Good luck !
Zoltan
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Hi Zoltan,
I have tested the Feeder/Plate combination already. The results I reported are as a result of me placing feeders into the new Plates. Aside from which, the feeders have a Machined 'flat' in two places in their base as a datum and seat, which ensure the Feeder is aligned vertically.
If you simply measure the gap in a closed Feeder you will discover it is sub 16.0mm, which is where the clamping force comes from.
The Yamaha feeder have no tolerance for anything thicker than 16.0mm.
If you ever have an opportunity to purchase some second-hand, they will not fit a thicker feeder plate.
Cheers - Peter
Hi Peter,
Strange as I told them exactly same "probably the 'cause' of this issue in the first instance, and possibly became worn due to it being forced onto their thick feeder plates.", but Daisy told that they used new feeders, same as mines. So this is why Im curious, how it really behaves. May be the 16mm is correct for original feeders, but may be the copies need some more. May be a 16.5 or something like that would be accepted by original feeders and could be good for copy market feeders too.
Sorry Im just thinking about, but lets wait your results.
Good luck !
Zoltan
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Zoltan if you study the CL feeders, the newer Yamaha ones and the newer chinese copies you will find that they ONLY fit >16mm by deforming and stretching.
The mechanism deforms and bends and stretches > 16.5mm. 0.5mm is the limit of taking up the bearing and bushes freeruns.
that is not a satisfactory way to operate a machine or its parts.
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As for the SAVE button, I've seen it update file times, but not change any contents !
I will check if the SAVE writes to the controller...
On 802 all machine related parameters are saved in NV registers of the machine. I presume the same happens here.
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Thanks guys,
Yes, I have studied the feeders that I received an I saw that 16mm looks OK for feeders clamping, and I didnt forced my feeders (as QiHe recommended) onto the 17.2mm plates. Just they video makes me little confused showing wobbling. This makes me to think that 16.x would be better. May be 16.5mm is exagerated, but still good for starting as that still can be easily reduced if needed :) May be ending up at 16.2. This trials should be done by QiHe, not by any user.
Of course if 16.0mm is fine for any CL feeder than Im fine with it.
Hope that this will be finalized soon and QiHe can send my plates too, and with a month delay I can start playing with my machine.
Zoltan
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I'd say about 1 in 8 of my feeders seat perfectly on the thicker plate. The other don't seat fully, but seat enough such that they don't pop free.
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Guys,
I think we've done the Feeder Plate issue to death now.
If you like what you have already, then that's great.
If you're happy to force the Feeder to mount correctly, that's great too.
If you want to match the genuine Yamaha machine design, that dimension is a 16.0mm plate - if not ... well that's perfect.
There's not really any more to 'add'.
Merry Xmas to all
Cheers - Pete
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glenenglish, I grabbed a UDP conversation on my machine. There are some differences from yours. Makes me wonder if your PNP bridge app will just work on other machines as is. Unrelated, the controller knows the serial number of my machine. When the PC sends out the 010000000000... (line 12) the controller responded with my machine serial number. The SN seemed to go one way only. That is, the PC never sent the SN down. Probably not significant.
if you'd like, I'd try your app and capture a log for you.
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Tomorrow I will try the Atom in the TVM and report the detection time there.
the Atom in the TVM is about 1/4 the speed on the recognition as my 8 core 3.6 GHz desktop. So, the 320x240 recognizers takes about 29 mS
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I have moved software decode etc specific OpenPNP development Q & A and discussion to this topic :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/openpnp_qihe_sw-and-hw/
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/openpnp_qihe_sw-and-hw/)
I feel the decode and development stuff is getting quite niche
General, non specific development should stay in this-> thread
user questions
interested people
etc etc
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Control processing of the machine is now complete.
Note this image attached is a INTERFACE to Open PNP
It has 100% of the control facilities. So if you need to check the operation of the machine at the low level, it can be done.
OpenPNP supports the high level process.
UPDATED with correct image...
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Low cost Chinese hardware that reportably is pretty good + Open Source Software that is pretty good.
Sub $10k solution that supports proper feeders.. Wow. this really does change the playing field a lot.
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CONFIRMATION
OK - so here's the scoop!
I've been fortunate enough to get hold of a Beta release of @glenenglish's TVM920 decoder App.
EVERYTHING he reports is fact and everything he reports works!
This is a real GAMECHANGER guys.
For what seems like at least a year now, I've been reading blogs and discussions about releasing the benefit of good quality Chinese PnP machines which incorporate industry-standard Yamaha feeders, and coupling them at an application level [over which we have individual control if required] to our own software and workflow. In this instance, that application happens to be Jason's OpenPnP project.
Glen has confirmed that he'll have a 'complete interface' into the OpenPnP architecture ready in the next few days, and based on his track record so far, I've no reason not to believe it!
So I'd encourage all of you who either already own a TVM920, or are contemplating buying one in the near future, to support this effort and get on-board!
It appears obvious to me that [at least initially] that the more uses of a single machine type [eg TVM920] we all get participating early, the further this is likely to travel, and quickly.
Please spread the word to your colleagues and friends on this, and other blogs, or by whatever means you have.
For all those contemplating the journey into PnP, this is now a very PRACTICAL reality.
Glen - thanks so very much for this tremendous effort ... and of course to Jason for all that he and his contributors have created to date in their OpenPnP platform!
Cheers - Peter
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Can't wait to try it!
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OpenPNP operation of the TVM920 now in alpha test.
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What did I say?
"Glen has confirmed that he'll have a 'complete interface' into the OpenPnP architecture ready in the next few days, and based on his track record so far, I've no reason not to believe it!"
OpenPNP operation of the TVM920 now in alpha test.
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keep calm thommo,
its a very long way to get a usable pnp software,
This is just the very first beginning.
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Guys, what are the options for a quiet pump to feed the TVM920? I decided to upgrade from TV802 which I suffered with for a year, and I need a quiet pump... I don't have a huge space to hide the pump in some corner.
I have a pump which is loud as hell, when it is on it can be heard throughout entire floor. I only use it once in a while. If I try to run all the time, I'll be evicted, pronto :palm:
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Is 802A close?
OpenPNP operation of the TVM920 now in alpha test.
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I have a pump which is loud as hell, when it is on it can be heard throughout entire floor. I only use it once in a while. If I try to run all the time, I'll be evicted, pronto :palm:
First learn the SPL rating of your current compressor. I have a very loud Porter Cable pancake compressor that is rated at 82 dBA. Extremely quiet compressors are rated at 60 dB. If you have neighbors, you need to be very close to 60 dB
See Amazon for California Air Tools 2010A Ultra Quiet and Oil-Free 1.0 HP 2.0-Gallon Aluminum Tank Air Compressor
It's a 60 dB compressor
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Thanks! Any idea how much air the machine consumes? California Air Tools 2010A have enough throughput?
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I am using a Rolair JC10 with the 920.
https://www.rolair.com/products/air-compressors/hand-carry/jc10 (https://www.rolair.com/products/air-compressors/hand-carry/jc10)
Quiet, and seems to keep up with the TVM920 without issue. I have used small laboratory compressors in the past (converted refrigeration compressors) and albeit quiet as a mouse, I don't think they will keep up with the 920.
R
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I am also using the same Rolair JC10
Cheers - Pete
Quietest on the market for the capacity [and cost] I believe.
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It was never gone from taobao in the first place.
It may have been answered before, but can anyone explain the rather large difference in price between taobao and Ali? Not to mention that there are two vastly different prices ($ 6500 vs $ 7200) on Ali.
Hi
Taobao = internal China price, you are unlikely to get it cheaper.
Ali = price with some room for negotiation and fancy packing.
Bob
Hi Robk,
This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
I think I can answer that question( It may have been answered before, but can anyone explain the rather large difference in price between taobao and Ali? Not to mention that there are two vastly different prices ($ 6500 vs $ 7200) on Ali. )
Duo to the After-sales. We offer each customer a one year warranty, All the spare parts will be provided free of charge for you within the warranty period.
If any problem, pls feel free contact to us.
Sales 1 : MS. Grea
E-mail: sales1@qihekj.com
Skype: greafang@outlook.com
Whatsapp: 0086 151-6877-6060
After-sale email: services1@qihekj.com
Best wish
Grea
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Hi Harry. so, it really does not take me very long... the interface is 100% now. Open PNP is stable enough.
anyone interested to use it with OpenPNP should download OpenPNP and familiarize themselves with it.
Assuming you are competent with the reference "virtual' machine" you can connect up the TVM920.
************************
I am very familiar with the TVM920 now, having fully reverse engineered every last night and bolt of the control system and the platform.
those thinking of choosing other units in a similar price segment, check if that machine is closed or open loop on the motion .
TVM920 is closed loop, it's probably one of the big selling points, that is why it costs several hundred dollars more than the nearest opposition.
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keep calm thommo,
its a very long way to get a usable pnp software,
This is just the very first beginning.
Keep Calm Michel
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This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
Grea
Hi, can we buy the 920 machine without any software.
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Hi TMF
how close is a OpenPNP etc port for 802A?
Well I intend to get a 802A in the next couple of months for porting, then I will probably give it to the local electronics club.
The TVM920 and 802 have the same engineer, so I would expect a fair degree of similarity in the systems, so probably won't take too long to figure out.
The 802A is quite affordable but short on feeders relatively, so I expect there will be some need and application and work done to improve loose part-pickup in the area . there is plenty of pcb area for that.
People who want casual assembly probably can be well served with the 802 series, but for serious work, the 920 is more the business.
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This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
Grea
Hi, can we buy the 920 machine without any software.
Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
You are a special customer. I’m Grea Fang, Nice to meet you !
Lately, we will upgrade the software according to the customer’s suggestions and requirements.
About our software, May I know what’s point you are not like? We really need your advice. Could you Pls give some feedback to us?
This not only can help us to improve the product function, but also to bring quality products to customers. Mutual progress !
Pls feel free contact to me:
Sales 1 : MS. Grea
E-mail: sales1@qihekj.com
Skype: greafang@outlook.com
Whatsapp: 0086 151-6877-6060
YUEQING QIHE ELECTRICAL TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD
Company website: http://www.qihekj.com/home.html (http://www.qihekj.com/home.html)
Looking forward to your reply.
Best wish
Grea
-
Lately, we will upgrade the software according to the customer’s suggestions and requirements.
About our software, May I know what’s point you are not like? We really need your advice. Could you Pls give some feedback to us?
This not only can help us to improve the product function, but also to bring quality products to customers. Mutual progress !
I would like to just buy the Hardware of the machine and not any of the software. I would like to use OpenPNP, which is opensource and can be adapted quickly and to my exact requirements.
Can you provide just the hardware? I do not require the PC or screens that are supplied, just the internal. What would the price be for this.
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Hi, do you need all hardware?
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I dont' need the computer that comes with your TVM920 now...
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Hi, do you need all hardware?
The forum does not support chinese input ...
I put my chinese question here:
pastebin.xyz/p?q=SDg4bFk (http://pastebin.xyz/p?q=SDg4bFk)
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By the way, I've never gotten the answer to Max Component Height that TVM920 can handle with stock s/w. I know Z travel is 15mm, but max component height is not equal to Z-travel
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You need to work with OpenPNP and help them support 920 and 802, we all want open source software, we do not want your software.
This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
Grea
Hi, can we buy the 920 machine without any software.
Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
You are a special customer. I’m Grea Fang, Nice to meet you !
Lately, we will upgrade the software according to the customer’s suggestions and requirements.
About our software, May I know what’s point you are not like? We really need your advice. Could you Pls give some feedback to us?
This not only can help us to improve the product function, but also to bring quality products to customers. Mutual progress !
Pls feel free contact to me:
Sales 1 : MS. Grea
E-mail: sales1@qihekj.com
Skype: greafang@outlook.com
Whatsapp: 0086 151-6877-6060
YUEQING QIHE ELECTRICAL TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD
Company website: http://www.qihekj.com/home.html (http://www.qihekj.com/home.html)
Looking forward to your reply.
Best wish
Grea
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Can you provide just the hardware? I do not require the PC or screens that are supplied, just the internal. What would the price be for this.
The itx mobo in the TVM is probably $50. Entire Windows 10 tablets are selling for $100 which means MSFT has figured out how to be dirt cheap. If I were you, I'd suggest that is money well spent to have a complicated machine arrive and you can run the exact same code on the exact same hardware that the manufacturer ran to test the machine and you can go back to that at any time. I guess I could understand not wanting the screen, but again, it's a $50 panel.
On a $6000 machine, it's nice to be moving servos 10 minutes after you plug the machine to verify it made made the journey without issue. The cost for that verification is perhaps $100 or $200. We'll worth it.
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Can you provide just the hardware? I do not require the PC or screens that are supplied, just the internal. What would the price be for this.
The itx mobo in the TVM is probably $50. Entire Windows 10 tablets are selling for $100 which means MSFT has figured out how to be dirt cheap. If I were you, I'd suggest that is money well spent to have a complicated machine arrive and you can run the exact same code on the exact same hardware that the manufacturer ran to test the machine and you can go back to that at any time. I guess I could understand not wanting the screen, but again, it's a $50 panel.
On a $6000 machine, it's nice to be moving servos 10 minutes after you plug the machine to verify it made made the journey without issue. The cost for that verification is perhaps $100 or $200. We'll worth it.
Not to mention the time spent trying to explain why you want it like that....
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Hi, do you need all hardware?
The forum does not support chinese input ...
I put my chinese question here:
pastebin.xyz/p?q=SDg4bFk (http://pastebin.xyz/p?q=SDg4bFk)
Which i belive translates to
" Can i buy the machine without the software or the screen, and how much is it "
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Glen,
I want to buy the machine without the silly little computer and the software that i dont' want. I'd perfer to buy it withotu the control card as well.
I'm unsure how that affects you, so why are you so concerned. If QiHe is happy to sell me that, then thats great. If they dont' want to then thats great as well.
You dont' have the exclusive on anything.
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Hi Andrew,
I think you will get better answer if you ask Daisy or Grea privately.
If you want a public answer I think your chance to get positive answer reduces.
@Grea I believe you will get best response about your software by asking directly persons as Glen or Jason from OpenPnP
or probably Michael from SmallSMT.
As for the Open Source, being able to change the software and eventually make it more suitable for your particular needs is a great power.
Cheers
Dimitar
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As for the Open Source, being able to change the software and eventually make it more suitable for your particular needs is a great power.
Yes. Great Power. Very powerful in deed.
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It will be interesting to see what they quote minus PC and screen....
However when I buy mine I will get it all as I want to be able to verify operation ASAP on it coming in and knowing there is no issue, before I add my own things, and potentially create an issue and never know if I did it or not :-(
So I do agree with the other poster about "insurance"
Glen,
I want to buy the machine without the silly little computer and the software that i dont' want. I'd perfer to buy it withotu the control card as well.
I'm unsure how that affects you, so why are you so concerned. If QiHe is happy to sell me that, then thats great. If they dont' want to then thats great as well.
You dont' have the exclusive on anything.
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Thats awesome you know what you want.
Its awsome that i'm not getting upset about what you know what you want.
When i buy a order of Components to build somethign do i get an 'insurance policy' it will work.. no. I'm well used to making things that have'nt been made before. Its not a lot different.
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By the way, I've never gotten the answer to Max Component Height that TVM920 can handle with stock s/w. I know Z travel is 15mm, but max component height is not equal to Z-travel
Hi
Maximum Z TRAVEL is a little more than 20mm, 21.5 or something
(fully extended) :
Height (of the bottom of the nozzle holder)
above the big base plate is ~56mm or 76mm retracted.
so a 15mm tall part is reasonable but you could only carry it 5mm above the PCB.
what's that tall ? some ethernet sockets, some inductors I guess
to go all the way to say 18mm , (allowing 2mm for clearance ) routing might have to be derived to move it to location without crashing into other stuff.
15mm is about usual for this market machine.
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(note I made a type on the retracted distance in the previous post) (now corrected)
I have in the TVMdriver program a "crash prevention algorithm''
It ensures the lowered head will not travel through the camera illuminator zone.
It works by checking if the given movement trajectory passes through a defined polygon (and refuses if so) .
Now, that idea *could* be extended to multiple polygons in the form of the components on a PCB.
But you also then need a strategy to go around stuff rather than refusing the command and dumping an error.....
maybe have the handler just pull up the Z axis if there is going to be an illegal traverse. That will work for all but carrying tall components through tall areas.
Also, there needs to be a facility in OPNP for Move_to returning FALSE rather than void or whatever.
It can't carry on blindly. This function will be put in to OpenPNP.
Because in my situation I need to be able to return to OPNP "illegal operation"
(also need to cope with MACHINE FAULT - where the XY drivers return ERROR (TVM920 is closed loop stepper driver)
Now, what we do about that post the attempted illegal move, I dunno. (this will be covered separately in the OpenPNP group elsehwhere.)
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How about just limit jogs to +/-1mm at a time or so while the head Z is not at home?
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agreed. the handler has to safeguard the machine if the user tries to do something they should not.
and 1mm jog at a time could still break something.
I can at a simplification, have the TVMhandler just pull up the Z autonomonously as a protection method.
Ultimately I want to get to a point where the machine can place full height parts in areas where there are already full height parts placed/
That is, navigating down the streets of Manhattan. My Yamaha does that. But that sort of strategy can be built into the host PNP application.
(like OpenPNP.)
My thinking is, and I am open to other ideas, that the TVM handler should just be there to stop down-nozzles crashing into static things when mis-commanded by the operator or the host PNP application.
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Maximum Z TRAVEL is a little more than 20mm, 21.5 or something
I just measured on my machine, and if you use the provided board holder, a 1.6mm PCB and the largest Juki nozzle, then clearance to the PCB is about 10.5mm.
I had been studying to see if the Juki holders linked below might fit. They have balls to center the nozzle in the holder and appear to have excellent eccentricity. Unfortunately, the nozzle holder on the TVM920 is about 10mm long overall, and appears to be press fitted on the stepper. The nozzle holders below are 30mm long. Too bad.
http://www.betztechnik.ca/store/p32/Quick_change_Juki_nozzle_holders-_NEMA_8_5mm_OD_hollow_shaft-_STOCK.html (http://www.betztechnik.ca/store/p32/Quick_change_Juki_nozzle_holders-_NEMA_8_5mm_OD_hollow_shaft-_STOCK.html)
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Ultimately I want to get to a point where the machine can place full height parts in areas where there are already full height parts placed.
Personally, I think that logic should live in OpenPNP. it's not machine specific. It's a feature that would be useful to every PNP machine. it also means that the driver has to get really smart, which means your testing requirement gets really complicated. And since you are a guy doing this out of the goodness of your heart, you will be overwhelmed with bug reports where someone says "My machine won't place C502, can you tell me why?" and then you have to learn all sorts of state information to debug why in fact it failed.
The rapid decline in reliablity of MSFT OSs in the late 90s was overwhelmingly due to drivers getting too smart. Drivers could do anything, and many people that had no business writing drivers were writing poor code in kernel mode. They quickly realized the root cause of the poor stability, and Microsoft moved all the critical kernel mode code into THEIR driver code at the top of the stack, and then basically OEMs just had to write simple read/write functions in user space to make the hardware work. Just like Linux. But the lesson is very important: Keep drivers simple, and move the smarts into the higher levels. Always.
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there are a couple of TVM920 users. I was hoping that some of you will
make a youtube video showing how the machine works.
There are so many videos about the TVM802, but nothing by TVM920 users.
Come on, do us a favor, take your smartphone and upload some vids.
Thanks
Harry
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there are a couple of TVM920 users. I was hoping that some of you will
make a youtube video showing how the machine works.
There are so many videos about the TVM802, but nothing by TVM920 users.
Come on, do us a favor, take your smartphone and upload some vids.
Thanks
Harry
Theres a couple of videos on this forum already. Whats really missing is videos of SmallSmT machines Micheal.
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There are short video's online from vendors / sales people only showing the machine in very short and limited operation.
If anyone who has this machine could just do a short walk-around (don't even need to talk) or could show it operating that would be greatly appreciated.
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Anfang, I am not sure you got that right OR I mis-interpreted your statement.
When I put a 505 juki nozzle in, the bottom of the nozzle is 50mm above the deck
travel is around 21mm - travel is variable of course
the bottom of the nozzle will reach just touch fully extended 50-21 = 29mm above the deck.
you want say 1mm compression so let's call it 30mm is the minimum board height- leaving 20mm
so...you have a 20mm gap between the board and the fully retracted nozzle.
which is reasonable.
I have not used their board mounters- they are a bit clunky and large !. Luckily there are a heap of threads in the plate.
just something like a cap head screw, compression washer and some 5mm x 20mm bar between the screws will do it.
Ok I think I understand what you meant, that is the travel available with the supplied board mounters,
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Anfang, please contact me directly on email/PM
I have a TVM920handler + OpenPNP build for you.
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Smallsmt, do you have any customers in the US yet? Thanks!
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Ultimately I want to get to a point where the machine can place full height parts in areas where there are already full height parts placed/
That is, navigating down the streets of Manhattan. My Yamaha does that. But that sort of strategy can be built into the host PNP application.
(like OpenPNP.)
This problem has a much simpler solution. Just sort placement order by X or Y and give tall parts priority.
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OK, how many here have TVM920s? everybody who does please send me a email / private message, we'll start distributing the TVMhandler and OpenPNP build.
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Maybe just push your code into a git repo. Save your self lots of work and then others can contribute to your efforts as well. Open source is so powerful to get stuff done at speed
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This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
Grea
Hi, can we buy the 920 machine without any software.
Sorry for my late reply.
Excuse me, Are you Mr. who contacted me in Skype? If any problem, pls feel free contact to me. Hoping keep contact.
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This is Grea Fang from Yueqing Qihe electrical technology company.
Grea
Hi, can we buy the 920 machine without any software.
Yes, thankyou for a very useful disussion.
Sorry for my late reply.
Excuse me, Are you Mr. who contacted me in Skype? If any problem, pls feel free contact to me. Hoping keep contact.
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What is the " useful disussion" outcome ? :)
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Maybe just push your code into a git repo. Save your self lots of work and then others can contribute to your efforts as well. Open source is so powerful to get stuff done at speed
+1 to this. A lesson hard learned from OpenPnP is that it's more valuable to document something once on a Wiki rather than 100 times in emails to 100 different people. Push the code up to a repo, add the docs to a Wiki and update as you go. Then you can just send interested parties a link.
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I think you have to pay an additional cost for this Pick & Place.
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I think you have to pay an additional cost for this Pick & Place.
Clearly you have to pay something but what do you mena additional cost?
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Having some trouble with OpenPNP. It can view the cameras from the capture card, but only one camera at a time. I need to close OpenPNP, open the capture program or the TVM920 software, change to the other camera, close the program, and go back to OpenPNP to view the other camera. I guess they are connected via 'channels' and only one can be selected at a time, and the functionality to select channels is not in OpenPNP.
Has anyone got their TVM920 cameras working with OpenPNP?
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there is a thread on this at OpenPNP
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/_RtmRnfAZ-w (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/_RtmRnfAZ-w)
it's being addressed
have a read through the thread, there is quite bit of information there.
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Thanks Glen, this thread did not come up in my search, I'll have a read.
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Everybody
remember ! the feeder pins of the CL feeders MUST be lubricated -
especially the rear pin of the feeder where the pin goes through the O-ring
It will NOT (and should not) go in with out lubrication. Use SILICON GREASE or even a bit of saliva from your mouth.
If lubrication is not used on the rear feeder pins the O ring will be damaged and you'll have a poor air seal and poor feeder operation...
:-)
Glen
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Is it your intention to release the source code?
Maybe just push your code into a git repo. Save your self lots of work and then others can contribute to your efforts as well. Open source is so powerful to get stuff done at speed
+1 to this. A lesson hard learned from OpenPnP is that it's more valuable to document something once on a Wiki rather than 100 times in emails to 100 different people. Push the code up to a repo, add the docs to a Wiki and update as you go. Then you can just send interested parties a link.
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All nozzles (rotation, plunge, vaccuum) from OpenPNP are working today ...
rotation, Z plunge all tidied up .
Things to do :
1) decide where to have openPNP control the lighting (cameras)
2) decide on a machine fiducial at the far end from the standard opto-interrupt setup machine-home, to permit auto XY step cal.
Note : TVM802 + OpenPNP will use same TVM driver interface to OpenPNP. That should be a cinch !
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Everybody
remember ! the feeder pins of the CL feeders MUST be lubricated -
especially the rear pin of the feeder where the pin goes through the O-ring
It will NOT (and should not) go in with out lubrication. Use SILICON GREASE or even a bit of saliva from your mouth.
If lubrication is not used on the rear feeder pins the O ring will be damaged and you'll have a poor air seal and poor feeder operation...
:-)
Glen
Theres some useful information in teh Yamaha User Manuals about the feeders, which i think are pretty general.
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All nozzles (rotation, plunge, vaccuum) from OpenPNP are working today ...
rotation, Z plunge all tidied up .
Things to do :
1) decide where to have openPNP control the lighting (cameras)
2) decide on a machine fiducial at the far end from the standard opto-interrupt setup machine-home, to permit auto XY step cal.
Note : TVM802 + OpenPNP will use same TVM driver interface to OpenPNP. That should be a cinch !
I agree with JasonV...you need to get this in a git repository ASAP and start do pull requests back OpenPNP. This current path is not sustainable.
Why the resistance?
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Anfang as I pointed out about 50 posts ago, the source will be released when it is good to go.
I dont want people damaging themselves or machines until it is good, there is a very small pool of people testing.
You are off the beta program now. I am only interested in test with people who are not PITAs.
Most open source works through problems WITH the users. If nothing was released until it was almost perfet, then Jason would still be toiling away in private kicking people off the beta he didn't agree with in a single post. If you were still concerned about safety, then I doubt you'd be listing off a long set of features that had nothing to do with safety. I was merely pointing out that it might be more valuable to spend an hour and push everything to github, and then people could work on features WITH YOU.
As for being kicked off something I hadn't yet climbed aboard, consider me unfazed.
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I have put out there, people who want to try it , and provide feedback , I have done that and I have had good feedback for a couple of people
you are welcome to ask for this privilege and I will send you link. Anfang you clearly know what you are doing, so I respect that, however, I in this case, know what is best for my source code, so I will take feedback and provide correction in that order
OpenPNP is a different beast- that enormous piece of software has to be all things to all people. This does not.
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As for being kicked off something I hadn't yet climbed aboard, consider me unfazed.
I would'nt wait for this to be done Anfang, probalby best to do it yourself..
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Source won't be released until we're good to go, which will be few days.. maybe a week. I will run a job on it next week.
It's closed until I open it. If you don't like that, write it yourself, be my guest.
Anyone who is a BETA tester has access if they want to the source. Anfang I would welcome you being involved as I think that know what you are doing.
Unlike OpenPNP which is feature and process driven , there is little room for input.
That is to say, it either works, or it does not, there is no in between. The heads either do what they are told or they do not.
This is not a project that has artistic input at this point.
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For those following the Google groups OpenPNP forum you will know there is a bit of talk on using the existing capture card (dual input composite) , and the code requirements to switch inputs are the sticking point currently.
Using the composite card has some benefits- low latency high frame rate linear digitization.
This is good !
The built-in cameras are actually quite good.
There is some move to provide the input switching. I chose a different path, just rip em out and use USB2 ELP monochrome cameras ($40-$50), for me time is money and I couldn't be arsed messing around. The ELP USB2 cameras are screw-bolt compatible ! all you need is a 1.5mm hex key... yes NO holes to change....
The upsides- USB2 ELP camera "Just Work" . The USB2 cameras, in linear output (YUY2) (not compressed motion JPEG) will only make about 6 fps in 2MPixel mode, and about 1MPixel mode- about 9 fps, which is entirely sufficient, but the system does have to wait for the frame capture.
How good these lens will be on these small M12 lens is another story, you can get better lens.
However the use of the internal pre-existing composite 2 input capture board will be supported, either in TVMdriver or in OpenPNP. TVMdriver does not touch the vision, that's an open-PNP thing. TVMdriver is a motion control platform.
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Source won't be released until we're good to go, which will be few days.. maybe a week. I will run a job on it next week.
It's closed until I open it. If you don't like that, write it yourself, be my guest.
Anyone who is a BETA tester has access if they want to the source. Anfang I would welcome you being involved as I think that know what you are doing.
Unlike OpenPNP which is feature and process driven , there is little room for input.
That is to say, it either works, or it does not, there is no in between. The heads either do what they are told or they do not.
This is not a project that has artistic input at this point.
al freír de los huevos lo verá <-- Because you like a puzzle
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SPECIFIC OpenPNP chat is now moving over into Google Groups OpenPNP >> TVM920 OpenPNP driver
However I'll still use this for more general stuff. like mechanics, electronics, mechatronix, air , whatever....
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There is new software for the TVM920 - 1.27 available from Qihe.
I can send it to you, or ask Qihe . Best to ask them so you stay on contact
TVM920 driver for OpenPNP is complete. (has been fr a while)
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There is new software for the TVM920 - 1.27 available from Qihe.
I can send it to you, or ask Qihe . Best to ask them so you stay on contact
TVM920 driver for OpenPNP is complete. (has been fr a while)
were can i can download the OpenPNP driver code from?
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There is new software for the TVM920 - 1.27 available from Qihe.
I can send it to you, or ask Qihe . Best to ask them so you stay on contact
TVM920 driver for OpenPNP is complete. (has been fr a while)
Are you going to release this code like you promised or has somethign changed. It would be deeply dissapointing if you did'nt given the considerable help you where given by Jason to get it going.
If your not just say.. thats ok.
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Give the bloke a chance...
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There is new software for the TVM920 - 1.27 available from Qihe.
I can send it to you, or ask Qihe . Best to ask them so you stay on contact
TVM920 driver for OpenPNP is complete. (has been fr a while)
Are you going to release this code like you promised or has somethign changed. It would be deeply dissapointing if you did'nt given the considerable help you where given by Jason to get it going.
If your not just say.. thats ok.
Mrpackethead you're a sh*t stirrer and its getting tiresome.
Sent from my x600 using Tapatalk
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Thanks Glen, for pointing me to the Source etc.. Much appreicated.
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stuff relating to this is at google groups
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/KOkuTCBide8
(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/KOkuTCBide8)
OpenPNP group , TVM920 driver topic
https://github.com/glenenglishgithub/TVM920driver/tree/dev
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I got TV920, the guys did not ask and I forgot to specify, but they sent me 220V machine. Could've guessed that I need 110V...
Anyway, did anybody have to deal with switching the voltage? The China is now on holidays, unfortunately.
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Ok the machine has 3 24V power supplies inside, each having a 220/110 switch, so that's solved.
I looked at the feeder ports, and it looks like those green o-rings are going to be destroyed fast. I tried plugging one or two feeders, and afterwards I already see some material being stripped from the o-rings. What's going on? Several of the ports that I did not touch also have some o-ring debris in them.
I found 2 loose screws in the machine ;)
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so far cameras don't show up, neither in the device manager or in the QIHE s/w.
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got my stuff tuned to the point where I can place 0402 at 100% speed, most of the setup time was z-height and nozzle-to-camera calibration. this is with juki 502 nozzle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c)
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Nice work DTF - Congrats!
How reliable are you finding it with those 0402s?
What Paste Printer / Oven combo are you using again?
Pete
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placement has been very reliable, this is of #1 importance and the reason why I was running the machine slower. There's still some adjustments to make with vision, nozzle-to-camera offsets, and PCB fiducial settings (qihe needs to add more fiducial-based PCBs to its system, 5 is not enough), and the wooden stand I built needs to be replaced with a heavier metal stand to prevent vibration. Currently, pick/place delay, and before/after vision delay, are set quite high, to account for vibration and rocking due to the flimsy wood stand it's on.
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Regarding 10mm tube fitting for connecting the air:
As several people from North America mentioned, these are hard to get here.
Instead of ordering these, I opened a back panel, unscrewed 6mm quick connect on the inside from the 10mm quick connect on the outside, and used a standard coupling (1/2" I believe) to join a 6mm QC on the inside to 1/2" quick connect on the outside. So I can use a standard compressor hose to connect to the machine.
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V 1.27 of the software.
Run the program, then stop. Restart, it asks me if I want to continue, or start over. I select continue, BUT IT STARTS OVER ANYWAY. Even though the parts are still marked as done in the application. |O
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got my stuff tuned to the point where I can place 0402 at 100% speed, most of the setup time was z-height and nozzle-to-camera calibration. this is with juki 502 nozzle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c)
The sound when it hits the pcb is scary!
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got my stuff tuned to the point where I can place 0402 at 100% speed, most of the setup time was z-height and nozzle-to-camera calibration. this is with juki 502 nozzle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c)
The sound when it hits the pcb is scary!
I'd be pretty sure that sound is not the part being smacked into the board.. Its more to do with the way the mechanics of the head are arranged. A pneuamatically driven machien runs differently from this..
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got my stuff tuned to the point where I can place 0402 at 100% speed, most of the setup time was z-height and nozzle-to-camera calibration. this is with juki 502 nozzle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQD8ibvp1c)
The sound when it hits the pcb is scary!
That's just the sound of the vacuum pump solenoid closing, to shut off the vacuum
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V 1.27 of the software.
Run the program, then stop. Restart, it asks me if I want to continue, or start over. I select continue, BUT IT STARTS OVER ANYWAY. Even though the parts are still marked as done in the application. |O
that's messed up! does it actually clear out the pick-done list? can you pause + cancel + see that they have been reset?
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It does both. For example, I checked that all part from specific feeder already placed, and all marked DONE in the list. And it still goes get more parts from it. Also, when you switch from RUN to EDIT and back, sometimes it (seemingly randomly) deselects some of the DONE flags.
Which version do you have?
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1.24, and i've used this functionality a lot, it's working fine
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Actually the enclosed flash drive contains v 1.24 beta2. Guess I'll try it.
Another REALLY annoying bug, when it detects fiducials and fails, it prompts you to correct manually, using 4 on-screen buttons over the camera view. But the machine is in high speed mode! So there is no practical way to correct, since even the shortest possible click results in a huge jump.
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Right, v1.24 does not have this bug. What I did was switch from RUN to EDIT then in feeders check and uncheck one of the nozzles. Go back to RUN and all of the DONE flags are basically randomized.
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It is amazing how they can't do a simple thing right.... or at least do it consistently. v1.27 actually worked correctly with angles. Feeders have their own "pick angle" parameters. And if that was set to zero, the rotation was exactly as set in the component. Now you can rotate your IC tray, change the "pick angle" and leave alone the components information.
v1.24 does not have "pick angle", and for some unknown reasons adds 90 deg to the components angle. Which means if you upgrade the s/w your setup is screwed up.
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Ok, try this: Load some file, switch to RUN. Check DONE on the first line.
Switch to Edit>Feeders. Uncheck and check one of the nozzles (so that everything is like it was originally).
Switch back to RUN. Now, in my file I have exactly 100 line, and after I do that 51st line is now DONE. If I manually checked 2nd line, 52nd would be DONE after these steps. Even on v1.24. So I guess as long as you don't manually switch DONE, you are fine. I had to reload the files, so I had to do that manually. Basically every DONE flag that you set manually is applied to the other half of the file.... :palm:. I mean you really need to try to mess things up like that.
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How do you guys find performance of the up camera? On my machine the lighting is inadequate.
I adjusted the threshold so it recognized some 0603 caps really well (at setting 140), then I tried placing 0805 caps. I had to reduce the the threshold to 40, at which point it was completely useless for other parts.
That's strange, on TVM802 once I adjusted camera threshold I never had to touch it again. Why did not they just copy the part that worked well.
Anyway, I put some white LEDs on 3 sides of the hexagon, now it seems to work the same way for all parts, like I'm used to.
Down camera struggles with fiducials on HASL boards. It finds one of them easily and another one is not steady.
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Actually the enclosed flash drive contains v 1.24 beta2. Guess I'll try it.
Another REALLY annoying bug, when it detects fiducials and fails, it prompts you to correct manually, using 4 on-screen buttons over the camera view. But the machine is in high speed mode! So there is no practical way to correct, since even the shortest possible click results in a huge jump.
Yeah... I actually contacted them about this issue... very annoying
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Right, v1.24 does not have this bug. What I did was switch from RUN to EDIT then in feeders check and uncheck one of the nozzles. Go back to RUN and all of the DONE flags are basically randomized.
found this out too, while clicking around, pretty flawed programming there
"pick angle" was one of those things i asked them to add :)
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How do you guys find performance of the up camera? On my machine the lighting is inadequate.
I adjusted the threshold so it recognized some 0603 caps really well (at setting 140), then I tried placing 0805 caps. I had to reduce the the threshold to 40, at which point it was completely useless for other parts.
That's strange, on TVM802 once I adjusted camera threshold I never had to touch it again. Why did not they just copy the part that worked well.
Anyway, I put some white LEDs on 3 sides of the hexagon, now it seems to work the same way for all parts, like I'm used to.
Down camera struggles with fiducials on HASL boards. It finds one of them easily and another one is not steady.
It's been working OK since lowering threshold to 80. But I can't get it to detect small LGAs at all. I'll try adding a bunch of white LEDs, thanks for the tip.
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How do you guys find performance of the up camera? On my machine the lighting is inadequate.
I adjusted the threshold so it recognized some 0603 caps really well (at setting 140), then I tried placing 0805 caps. I had to reduce the the threshold to 40, at which point it was completely useless for other parts.
That's strange, on TVM802 once I adjusted camera threshold I never had to touch it again. Why did not they just copy the part that worked well.
Anyway, I put some white LEDs on 3 sides of the hexagon, now it seems to work the same way for all parts, like I'm used to.
Down camera struggles with fiducials on HASL boards. It finds one of them easily and another one is not steady.
It's been working OK since lowering threshold to 80. But I can't get it to detect small LGAs at all. I'll try adding a bunch of white LEDs, thanks for the tip.
Seriously, you guys paid how much for this? Is the open pnp option viable yet?
Sent from my x600 using Tapatalk
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LOL
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QiHE will be upgrading my machine, there's also a hardware change, they are sending me the new board.
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what's the upgrade?
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>Mainly updated speed and algorithm. In short, it is faster than before. and before you say there is an IC setting issues.
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Hm... algorithm update sounds a bit vague :)
Another question, what pressure do you supply? If set pressure higher than 90PSI some parts jump when the feeder advances. Is there some kind of adjustment for that?
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I'm supplying 100psi but only had problems with parts jumping around on tape with a tiny 2x2mm part on 12mm tape. Reducing pressure is a good idea tho, I'll turn it down some.
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Wonder how much the vaccuum will drop. Does a venturi generated vaccuum result in a linear process?
Do you guys have the new feeder plates ?
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Yep, I told them I heard about feeder plate snafu, before the purchase, mine arrived with 16mm plate.
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http://i.imgur.com/TtAiSSF.png (http://i.imgur.com/TtAiSSF.png)
looks like vacuum drops linearly (L type) but it's not like I've ever had part holding problems
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according to ancient documents, yamaha YV100 and therefore CL feeders require 0.55MPa or 80 psi, so I'll try that
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looks like there's no per-feeder setting for pick height - they are all set to the same height... "component height" is for placement only
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Aren't all of the feeders on the same level?
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even the same feeder in the same place will have a different pick height if you're using a part on paper or plastic tape etc.
also there's no independent nozzle z-calibration....
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No problems turning down the pressure to 80psi. The feeders sound much smoother. The compressor also switches on way less often. Some parts are still bouncing around on tape however. I'll try a bit lower.
Some of the pick problems are z-height now too, one nozzle is just at the perfect height to pick, but another is too low and presses the tape down.
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I ordered the machine with a bunch of feeders, but AFTER I paid money they told me they don't have all of these in stock. I only got 8 of 8mm's, and a bunch of larger ones. Promised to ship the balance right after NY. And now they guy I was talking to (KIM) has gone silent...
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even the same feeder in the same place will have a different pick height if you're using a part on paper or plastic tape etc.
also there's no independent nozzle z-calibration....
Damn it, you are right. One of the caps from paper tape does not pick up normally if I press the nozzle too low, but if I adjust pick up height to work for the cap, then another nozzle stays at least 1.5mm above the part on plastic tape. Did you think of the way to work it around?
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Question: is it possible that steps/mm ratio could be different in front and in the back?
I set up camera to nozzle offsets so that they perfectly land nozzles on the parts in front feeders. Now if I go to a back feeder, the nozzle ends up being off by about 0.7-0.9 in Y direction. I stopped the machine when it dropped the needle, noted X Y coords, then clicked "aimed" for that feeder and confirmed that offset matches the vision offset in the config. The nozzle drops to the back feeder at the same angle as for the front ones.
I had to compensate pick location for that feeder so it looks off with down-camera. How could this be possible?
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received new controller board and V1.27 Beta 1 software. PCBs are identical so likely just a firmware change on the STM32. The settings seem the same except for X/Y scaling which now has 4 digits after the decimal point instead of 3. Homing sounds different, and seems to take longer. Feeders are all offset by a few mm and will all need to be re-aligned. Notably the "component rotation by feeder" setting that they promised to add is not present.
Also received two upgraded cams for the Z axis. These ones are adjustable so nozzles 1+2 and 3+4 can be aligned to each other (the cam plate can be rotated a few degrees on the shaft). Unfortunately I don't think it will cure my Z axis issues as even after careful adjustment, 1/2 and 3/4 will be still offset from each other. IMO there needs to be an offset in software that can be set per-nozzle.
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Actually, about that.... In my version of 1.27 I do have component rotation by feeder. But the pickup angle has no effect. None. And angles on back feeders are all of by 180...
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Actually, about that.... I my version of 1.27 I do have component rotation by feeder. But the pickup angle has no effect. None. And angles on back feeders are all of by 180...
On the original software the back feeders were deliberately out by 180 so you can move a part from front to back without changing its angle in the picknplace file, do you mean this feature is gone?
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That makes sense. Can't remember exactly, I think it is reversed now.
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Never mind, the per-component rotation isn't on the feeder screen, but kept in the pick-file feeder assignment screen, I just missed it there.
With the new motion board and after recalibrating everything, the machine is placing much better than before, did a few hundred 0402 today to test and it's much more precise, and is keeping its calibration. The nozzle Z-height adjustment is still quite off but the nozzle pairs are better matched now.
Also the fiducial recognition has been improved, it can accept more shapes, and you can specify the size of the mark to detect. Although I'm having trouble with it, the threshold settings for one fiducial do not work on the other one... lol
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Hi dtf,
Great to hear the new Main board sorts out some of the minor issues. Ours is apparently on its way.
Question:
0402 components - what stencil / paste machine are you guys using to apply paste for your 0402 boards?
We've got some coming up soon but we're only using a manual Chinese 'hinged frame' style printer, and I'm not certain if we'll get what's required for the 0402s.
What paste and oven are you guys using also?
Thnx - Pete
Never mind, the per-component rotation isn't on the feeder screen, but kept in the pick-file feeder assignment screen, I just missed it there.
With the new motion board and after recalibrating everything, the machine is placing much better than before, did a few hundred 0402 today to test and it's much more precise, and is keeping its calibration. The nozzle Z-height adjustment is still quite off but the nozzle pairs are better matched now.
Also the fiducial recognition has been improved, it can accept more shapes, and you can specify the size of the mark to detect. Although I'm having trouble with it, the threshold settings for one fiducial do not work on the other one... lol
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Was using the QiHE-supplied stencil printer but it's absolute junk. I even broke it yesterday. Moving on
Oven is also the QiHE-supplied T960 which is working fine after some adjustment and trial runs, it requires some hot temps and slow conveyor for SAC305, and to be consistent across board sizes and thicknesses.
Hi dtf,
Great to hear the new Main board sorts out some of the minor issues. Ours is apparently on its way.
Question:
0402 components - what stencil / paste machine are you guys using to apply paste for your 0402 boards?
We've got some coming up soon but we're only using a manual Chinese 'hinged frame' style printer, and I'm not certain if we'll get what's required for the 0402s.
What paste and oven are you guys using also?
Thnx - Pete
Never mind, the per-component rotation isn't on the feeder screen, but kept in the pick-file feeder assignment screen, I just missed it there.
With the new motion board and after recalibrating everything, the machine is placing much better than before, did a few hundred 0402 today to test and it's much more precise, and is keeping its calibration. The nozzle Z-height adjustment is still quite off but the nozzle pairs are better matched now.
Also the fiducial recognition has been improved, it can accept more shapes, and you can specify the size of the mark to detect. Although I'm having trouble with it, the threshold settings for one fiducial do not work on the other one... lol
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Going to try turning down the pressure even more, still having problems with 12mm feeders and 4mm pitch
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Hi dtf,
Thanks for the reply.
Have you made any decisions on replacements yet?
We bought a conveyor oven from a CN company called Torch, who also make paste machines and I know that Mr Packethead has recently purchased one. I'm waiting to hear what he has to report before diving in.
Out of interest, what specifically were the shortcomings in the QiHe machine [the 3rd party one they offer]?
BTW - we have the same machine - without any breakages so far. Difficult to imagine where it could be 'broken' actually.
The main issue that I see with using it for 0402 sized components is my own human failure and inability to repeatedly apply the paste with the same pressure and consistency.
Will be interested in your first-hand experience with it on these sized components.
Thanks again - P
Was using the QiHE-supplied stencil printer but it's absolute junk. I even broke it yesterday. Moving on
Oven is also the QiHE-supplied T960 which is working fine after some adjustment and trial runs, it requires some hot temps and slow conveyor for SAC305, and to be consistent across board sizes and thicknesses.
Hi dtf,
Great to hear the new Main board sorts out some of the minor issues. Ours is apparently on its way.
Question:
0402 components - what stencil / paste machine are you guys using to apply paste for your 0402 boards?
We've got some coming up soon but we're only using a manual Chinese 'hinged frame' style printer, and I'm not certain if we'll get what's required for the 0402s.
What paste and oven are you guys using also?
Thnx - Pete
Never mind, the per-component rotation isn't on the feeder screen, but kept in the pick-file feeder assignment screen, I just missed it there.
With the new motion board and after recalibrating everything, the machine is placing much better than before, did a few hundred 0402 today to test and it's much more precise, and is keeping its calibration. The nozzle Z-height adjustment is still quite off but the nozzle pairs are better matched now.
Also the fiducial recognition has been improved, it can accept more shapes, and you can specify the size of the mark to detect. Although I'm having trouble with it, the threshold settings for one fiducial do not work on the other one... lol
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I've had a TVM920 for a few weeks now. Really impressed with the hardware! But the software really lets it down. QiHe tell me I have the latest version software but I have been having a lot of problems with fiducial recognition. Despite having mask devoid 1.5mm fiducials that work really well with another machine (MDC7722FV) the TVM920 preferentially locks onto other entities well outside of the target zone that are nowhere near this size! Qihe's answer is to use manual fiducials. Which just seems wrong to me for a vision based machine. And it sometimes does some really weird things with the parts too!
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Hi!
I am new to this PnP machine but I have tryed to modify it.
1. Acrylic glass has removed.
2. Added an "light ring" with red LEDs to UV photo filter (47mm).
3. This construction is inserted into machine.
There are three stages on video.
1. With acrilyc glass. The MVision is in trouble to detect the border on "difficult IC". Sometimes entering in "dead loop".
https://youtu.be/CAbwZSlUvvk
2. With UF filer situation is better but not the best.
https://youtu.be/x4aDjddtJQY
3. With UF and working "light ring". Works perfect. There are no "dead loops" in recognition.
https://youtu.be/WUepd2Ag7M8
https://youtu.be/b5FleoYFnas
P.S.
If detection of fiducials fails the speed of carriage moving for "manual correction" is the same as in "manual mode" before. So you need to change the speed in "manual mode" and start execution after that.
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Hi m72,
That' looks like a good result.
We removed the Acrylic lens too and also replaced it with a simple glass UV filter. It sits down on top of the lens assembly, as opposed to up at the top on the same plane as the LEDs. The idea being to reduce the amount of 'flare' generated by the LED 'spill' light, and reflections from the component itself.
Did you create the new LED ring, or manage to find one commercially available?
I imagine that the extra amount of light would greatly assist the 'image recognition' process.
Pete
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I too added more LEDs to the up-camera. However I added white LEDs, and I placed them next to (actually on top of) the bottom row of the original red ones.
I don't understand why they use red LEDs. It is a color camera, if you use only one color you increase noise of the output. Works much better with white LEDs.
Thanks for the tip regarding manual mode.
QiHe tell me I have the latest version software
What version is that?
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The main idea of this modernisation: metal pads are mirrors. Matted but mirrors. So we need a bit more light near to the optic axis.
The "light ring" is homemade. The inner diameter 35mm (24x24mm of the viewing area).
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Nah, it only works like this for gold finish boards. HASL pads don't work as mirrors, since they are almost always shaped as pillows.
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I think I found the cause of my 12/16/24mm feeder problems (parts bouncing around on the tape between peel area and pick area), the tape cover/peeler/slider can lift up slightly, which it does when the tape underneath is pressed up against it. On a real YV100 this cover is tensioned down by a plate in the machine, TVM920 has no such plate, I'll have to 3dprint something or rig up some sort of tensioner
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I think I found the cause of my 12/16/24mm feeder problems (parts bouncing around on the tape between peel area and pick area), the tape cover/peeler/slider can lift up slightly, which it does when the tape underneath is pressed up against it. On a real YV100 this cover is tensioned down by a plate in the machine, TVM920 has no such plate, I'll have to 3dprint something or rig up some sort of tensioner
Do you have a real YV100?
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I think I found the cause of my 12/16/24mm feeder problems (parts bouncing around on the tape between peel area and pick area), the tape cover/peeler/slider can lift up slightly, which it does when the tape underneath is pressed up against it. On a real YV100 this cover is tensioned down by a plate in the machine, TVM920 has no such plate, I'll have to 3dprint something or rig up some sort of tensioner
Could you please show what you did?
I also noticed that some parts tend to bounce. Previously I tried to fix that by lowering pressure, but it is kind of hard to control on my pump.
So after that I did a bit of testing and noticed that if I push down on the part that can slide back and forth (the one that holds the already exposed component in place) bouncing is practically eliminated. So for now I just grabbed a rubber band and wrapped it around the feeder :) Simple but works. I tried it and helps tremendously. Yesterday I placed a board with 100 of 0603 LEDs what was bouncing like hell, like 40% of times. With the rubber band installed not a single part mispicked.
Another bounce mode that I discovered was during lifting of the component. After the nozzle lowered , and positioned perfectly, when the nozzle is raised on some caps in paper tape that resulted in part lifted in completely wrong position - at an angle, held by the corner, etc. I traced that to nozlle pushing down too hard during pickup. The problem was of course that I could not raise it any further or it stops picking up from plastic tapes. So now I added another 0.7mm shim to the front feeder block. This way I install all paper tapes on the front and plastic tapes on the back (which is slightly higher).
Also, you guys probably noticed that configuring "nozzle to camera" offsets is huge PITA. And it needs to be done every time you change nozzles... Well yesterday I tried a new contraption that makes this setup step completely fool proof and straightforward. I'll post a pic when I get back to office.
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Further, I can confirm that v. 1.27 of the software does NOT make a correction when you move parts from the front to the back. >:( So 0degree rotation is zero from any feeder, back, front, tray.
Right now I'm making a standalone s/w that does P&P file preparation directly from Eagle file, complete with automatic nozzle/speed assignment, rotations, fiducials etc. Well I already have a usable software but I keep adding features.
Another "feature" to keep in mind, is that QIHE only picks up parts on multiple nozzles if they are assigned the same speed. Sometimes it would make sense to lower speed on some parts to take advantage of multiple nozzles. For example, if you have one part at 70% and another at 80%, set them both to 70%, it will make things overall faster.
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@ar__systems,
I am facing the same problems with the bouncing of the components. I have different feeder sizes installed. A little too much pressure results in a catapult effect when the tape is tranported forward. Lowering the pressure results in some feeders not transporting.
So I look forward to some pictures of your "rubber" trick. Thanks in advance.
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So in the front you can see the alignment help device that I created :) A USB cam with a piece of glass (plastic, really) on top of it. The glass has a cross-hair scratched on it. Here is how it works:
You lower the nozzle just above the glass so it does not touch it, and verify with the USB camera that it is centered perfectly. You do this for every nozzle and after centering you record the coordinated in a spreadsheet. After you are done with the nozzles, move the head so that downlooking camera looks exactly at the center of the cross-hair. Record coordinates again. From here it should be obvious how to calculate the offsets. That's it! No more annoying adjustments.
Two important things:
1) make sure the cross-hair is on the top side of the glass.
2) The glass should be roughly at the level of the PCB.
The next thing you can see is feeders with rubber bands. I continued to work yesterday and placed another 14.5 panels with 100 of 0603 LEDs each and few passives. No bouncing whatsoever.
And at the far end of the feeder block you can see a white strip - that is the extra shim I installed to lower the front feeders.
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Oké, the rubber is clear. May be it will behave like a break too and so reduce the catapult-effect.
Good suggestion with the additional USB-cam also.
Will try both.
Thanks.
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Since then I've ran more of the boards, (went on the second side; 460 parts/panel; 15.5 panels) and I've had nearly zero problems with feeders. There were a few jams, but no bouncing. So rubber thing works :)
Anybody else is using Eagle and runs boards that are coming from Eagle on the machine? Over the last few months I've been working on a tool that generates files that QIHE s/w understands directly from Eagle's .brd and .sch and I find it is way better and reliable than anything. QIHE s/w is a crap to edit your p&p data, since it is so easy to make a mistake there. Other than that, what, Excel? What is your process, guys? Would you like to try my tool? Right now my process is such that starting from Eagle I can spent less than 30 min to prepare a QIHE file that I can actually run (that is, all parts assigned proper feeder and orientation corrected).
One of the big issues that I experienced earlier was inconsistency between how part was oriented in library and how it is oriented on the tape. My tool shows part's footprint, the way it expects to find the part on the tape. I have programmed some of the more common packages to be always oriented a certain way. For example for SOT-23 it makes sure part is oriented so that side with one pin is on the left. So it essentially makes it irrelevant how the part is placed in a library. Instead it looks for pin 1 of the package and makes sure it is in a certain quadrant. I can quickly go through the list of parts and compare expected orientation against the actual tape.
Also if the part in the library is not placed perfectly symmetrically, it will fix the offset as well.
So several things, each of which is relatively minor, but still very important, and combined together they turn into a hassle. And if you forget about one or the other, then it is even more waste of time to correct things. Just a month ago I was building a batch of 5 prototypes and I found that it was easier and cheaper for me to have a guy sit and do it manually over several hours than for me to go through the hassle of setting up the machine. Today I could probably do it fairly efficiently myself.
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Hi AR,
That all sounds really interesting. We're Altium users and are planning to write some translation scripts along similar lines. If there's anything you'd be prepared to share with us in relation to this - method, workflow, scripts, GUI, etc, we'd really appreciate it and will happily share our ideas in return as they're developed.
The shared benefit is clear ... although we're using different software, we're both trying to get to the same place, and on the same machine, with a view to simplifying production and reducing errors.
Please let's know what you think.
Peter
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Could you export to .brd format? Eagle's board format has very a simple structure, especially if you don't consider all routing data which I just skip anyway. Although that would be another intermediary format for you, something I'm trying avoid for myself....
I also implemented a few other features specific for Eagle. That's why I'm primarily interested in Eagle users at this point. For example, it can send commands to Eagle application directly. I'm using it in two different ways: first, I use to review the resulting bill of material. Clicking on any part in the list makes it send commands to Eagle to highlight the corresponding parts in the schematics. So if I see 91K and 100K in BOM, I can click on those and it will highlight them in schematics. Then I can decide if I could get rid of 91Ks and use 100K only. I basically go through the list and if I see 1 resistor of certain value I locate it on schematics and see if I can get rid of it. It's obviously not something I could not do without my tool, but the whole process is now more streamlined and makes my BOM and CAD files synced. I can change the value in my BOM tool and have it send commands to update data in Eagle.
And second application is for manual assembly. Again, going through the BOM, but this time Eagle's board window is in focus. So now it will highlight all instances of 100K on the board, which makes manual placement so much easier.
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Hi AR,
Thanks for your response.
I think, for a bunch of obvious reasons, we'd both prefer to stay 'inside' our chosen software platforms - even though a conversion to Eagle is possible [I believe] it wouldn't be our preferred workflow.
Having said that, the ideas you described in your last comment is of great value so, perhaps, we can just exchange the workflow and functionality. It needn't be in software - just text, or ideally as a flowchart - both work equally well in this regard. I'm sure you are going to continue considering and developing more great ideas - different to ours, and vice versa.
Good luck with the progress and please keep us all 'posted'!
Pete
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I was trying to pick and place quite a big modules (Carambola2 http://www.8devices.com/products/carambola-2 (http://www.8devices.com/products/carambola-2)). Vision was not able to recognize edges of the module, because it's too big to fit into the camera view. About 10% of the part is missing. I wonder if it would be possible to change lens from 12 mm to 11 mm focal length. Has anyone tried that?
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Hi Jedas,
My colleagues and I have indeed experimented with lenses of varying focal lengths.
It really depends on the size of the smallest component you intend placing on the 920. Wider focal length lenses do extend the field-of-view but, they also encounter more barrel distortion, and cause some extra degree of difficulty due to the fact that you are looking down the length of the component, as opposed to directly at it [perpendicular]. And of course reduce the resolution/image size of the smallest components.
The BEST SOLUTION is for us to petition the QiHe guys and have them add a feature that will enable imaging of larger components, like modules, in MULTIPLE IMAGES and have their software stitch the image together [actually the stitching isn't really necessary - it just needs to recognize the extents of the module/component] and coupled with the distance of the camera movement, determine the center position.
Let's know if you're interested [and others] in creating this petition/request of QiHe - we will happily support it.
Cheers - Peter
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Thanks Peter for the comments. I haven't thought about the barrel effect. I've opened cover to check how the camera is mounted there. It looks like it could be lowered by adding 0.5-1 cm distancers and adjusting focus. Maybe it would give just enough additional view coverage. I'll post here, if I will be able to achieve positive results.
If that won't work, I would be definitely interested in Qihe adding this feature.
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Hi Jedas,
My colleagues and I have indeed experimented with lenses of varying focal lengths.
It really depends on the size of the smallest component you intend placing on the 920. Wider focal length lenses do extend the field-of-view but, they also encounter more barrel distortion, and cause some extra degree of difficulty due to the fact that you are looking down the length of the component, as opposed to directly at it [perpendicular]. And of course reduce the resolution/image size of the smallest components.
The BEST SOLUTION is for us to petition the QiHe guys and have them add a feature that will enable imaging of larger components, like modules, in MULTIPLE IMAGES and have their software stitch the image together [actually the stitching isn't really necessary - it just needs to recognize the extents of the module/component] and coupled with the distance of the camera movement, determine the center position.
Let's know if you're interested [and others] in creating this petition/request of QiHe - we will happily support it.
Cheers - Peter
You aren't going to be placing lots of large parts, so multiple imaging is the sensible way to do it - you don't want to compromise resolution for smaller parts, and multiple imaging avoids geometric distortion of a wider lens.
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QiHe release new version of TVM920 Application
I was speaking with Daisy from QiHe yesterday and she confirmed that they have just released version 1.31 of their application.
Contact them by Skype or email to have them send you a copy. I've not yet loaded it so I can't say anything about its functionality.
I have also asked Daisy to send me a list of Bug Fixes/Changes/New Features contained in this release and expect to receive that info sometime today. I'll post it once I receive it.
Cheers - Peter
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Hi all,
This is the best information I could obtain from QiHe.
Regrettably, they don't seem to recognize that a SW/FW release is for ALL users, and not only a response to those how requested the fix/feature initially [this seems to be a fairly common experience with many small Asian manufacturers/suppliers we've dealt with, in that they can't [or won't] step out of their 'own shoes' and into those of their 'customers' every now and then - I don't know how to convey to them just how important this 'step' really is, and how much they would benefit from it].
I tried to get better descriptions of the Initial Request, and how it can be repeated, alas without success.
Hope this helps some of you anyway, and for those who believe they 'recognize' the origin of these fixes/features, it would be great if you could take the time to 'expand & share ' the information on this blog.
Cheers - Peter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2017/06/24 V1.31
1. Fix Multi-PCB results in error
2017/04/25 V1.30
1. Increase the No. 1 nozzle can not be used for the front 27, 28, back 1, 2 feeder.
No. 2 nozzle can not be used for the front 28, back 1 feeder.
No.3 nozzle can not be used for the front 1, back 28 feeder.
No. 2 nozzle can not be used for the front 1, 2, back 27, 28 feeder.
2. The XY axis can not be moved when the Z axis is not zero
3. Corrected three points to determine the English version of the material trays algorithm UI text error
4. The same line can be used to modify the "test" item
5. Corrected the number of times to abandon, and did not alarm
2017/02/23 V1.29
1. Fixed after network reconnection automatically load parameters, the interface and internal parameters inconsistent bug
2017/02/11 V1.28
1. After re-editing, the components completes mark is wrong bug
2. Pick material coordinate order error
3. English version X axis positive limit alarm display error
2017/01/15 V1.27
1. Modify components arrangement failed bug
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
QiHe release new version of TVM920 Application
I was speaking with Daisy from QiHe yesterday and she confirmed that they have just released version 1.31 of their application.
Contact them by Skype or email to have them send you a copy. I've not yet loaded it so I can't say anything about its functionality.
I have also asked Daisy to send me a list of Bug Fixes/Changes/New Features contained in this release and expect to receive that info sometime today. I'll post it once I receive it.
Cheers - Peter
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Hi Thommo,
could you please tell me if OpenPNP is now working well with TVM machine?
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Hi SmallSMT,
Could you tell me when you will have your machine finished? If it was me, i'd be concentrating on getting that finished, rather than worrying about what other people are doing.
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Hi Michael,
Well, given we're talking about a SW App designed to run in a Mekatronics environment and, one that is designed as a Framework suitable for many, many targets & purposes, to ever say 'Working Well' would be a miracle I reckon.
It works nonetheless and has been for some time now.
There are several users of the 920 running OpenPnP solution from what I can gather.
For the OpenPnP product to gain more and deeper traction, IMO it would require a well designed GUI - one which is far more context driven so as to remove all the irrelevant 'options' which are available for the other machines. Following this, all 'sub-options' likewise would be filtered for the tier above them also.
Good luck with your project.
Cheers - Peter
Hi Thommo,
could you please tell me if OpenPNP is now working well with TVM machine?
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Hi Thomas,
thank you for the detailed reply.
I was thinking about OpenPNP support for our machines.
Best regards
Michael
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IMP you'd be wasting your time.
If the App you intend providing is the samw, or similar, to the SmallSMT releases previously, you would be better off paying for a good graphic designer to just cleanup what you've already got, rather than mucking around with OpenPnP.
Your App llooks like it's a really workable solution and well considered already - I would use it in preference to the QiHe app anyday based on the screen shots I've seen to date. In addition, you've already confirmed you'll be opening it up with APIs [a big job] so, if this happens, a User should have all the flexibility they would need.
Good luck - Peter
Hi Thomas,
thank you for the detailed reply.
I was thinking about OpenPNP support for our machines.
Best regards
Michael
-
I don't agree, I think that any manufacturer that makes their machine compatible with OpenPNP will have way more customers no matter how good their original software is.
When you buy a machine you're taking the risk of having a manufacturer that doesn't support the machine adequately or that abandons the support or updates for the software once they switch to new models or even the possibility of them going out of business.
If the SmallSMT machine had compatibility with OpenPnP it would make it a really strong option to buy because it seems like their software developer will probably end up with a very good OEM software but having the ability of being able to make the machine work with OpenPnP gives you the peace of mind of being able to solve issues if the manufacturer doesn't do what you need so you're not left out in the cold.
Chinese manufacturers have difficulty understanding that concept because they feel that doing so is admitting that their software is not as good whereas us in the west look at it as an advantage over other machines and that concept doesn't even pass through our minds. It's like a PC, you can always run Linux but you're likely to stay in windows for the convenience so the same hardware and your choice of software. If you make the software really good and people use it instead if the OpenPnP having the option to do so it's a testament that the software OEM is really good and it also shows that the manufacturer is not afraid of competing against an open source solution.
If I were one of the manufacturers I would make my machines compatible immediately with OpenPnP and as a top priority.
One of the strongest reasons I'm leaning toward the TVM to buy it is just because of that potential ability.
-
Hi!
Can anyone check M-vision in manual mode?
I found that measured angle of component is not equal when nozzle at 0 & 360 degrees.
But it is equal when nozzle turned to 0 & 359.78 (360 minus one step 0.22/0.23).
Is it my TVM920 unique?
WBR, Mikhail.
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Hi guys!
I have TVM802A now I thinking about upgrade. Now I try to chouse between TVM920 from Qihe and CHMT560P4 from Charmtech.
There are not so many information about CHMT560, but based on existing videos, I think software is more stable, but machine a little slower than TVM920. Also builtin PC with embedded linux and small 7inch display is not so usable than external PC with big monitor and keyboard.
So, all looks like TVM920 is better, and faster. BUT!!! I have bad impressions from QiHe software. My TVM802 biggest problem is IC missplacing. Does they solved this problem in TVM920 or it still present.
Also I have a problem with nozzle alignment like @ar__systems. Every time after powerup, I need to calibrate nozzles, especially if I use 0603 chips. As I see, this problem also prsent in TVM920.
Please, guys, share with your impressions about TVM920 and CHMT560/530. There are many requests from other users about it, but still no one full and useful reply.
Thank you!
-
Having some problems with IC placement too. Most of them are placed ok, but for larger packages, like LQFP64 or so, it's noticeable that part is rotated during lowering it to pcb. Here is a video of extreme case of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQo4EsBdowU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQo4EsBdowU)
Customer support has gave me new software, maybe it helped a bit. But sometimes we still notice 1-5 degrees rotation of component during the nozzle drop. It's always the same direction. I've wrote to them again, but maybe some of you have noticed this behavior and has some remedies. My suspicion would be noise induction into servo control lines or something like that.
Thanks for the ideas.
-
Hi,
We (fortunately) haven't seen this behaviour (yet).
You say it's always the same direction, but I notice that there appears to be 2 random (opposite direction) rotations during that placement. One, when it is above the camera - anticlockwise, and two, the clockwise rotation at the board placement. It's very odd.
Are you actually 'speaking' with the QiHe guys?
What software version are you running - 1.34?
Pete
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After upgrading software, rotation during transportation happens not that often. Qihe responded and gave an instructions to adjust "Down to PCB" height in the "Nozzle" section.
http://svn.fpv.lt/~jedas/tvm920.jpg (http://svn.fpv.lt/~jedas/tvm920.jpg)
I'm running 1.34 version, but I'm not exactly sure I have this window. These options looks unfamiliar to me, even though quite useful. We were not able to configure different heights for back and front back ago. I'll play with it on Monday.
-
It looks like, that these options are available only on v1.35 beta. Support guy has sent me this version today. I'll test it couple of days. I hope it will solve at least some of the problems.
-
Hi Jedas,
The link you've attached is, I believe, from a much earlier version of the App.
Since v1.34 [the version you are running] this GUI has been available.
You will find it in v1.35beta under SYS CONFIG > [tab] OTHER. Also check out the [tab] ADVANCE tab.
It doesn't explain that unusual behaviour in v1.34 nonetheless. I have come to realise that, pending on where you are in the App, and how you got there [navigated via ..., then ..., set ..., then - you get the picture], the result has a tendency to 'change'.
In the STRONGEST POSSIBLE terms I employ you to heavily 'request' of the QiHe SW guys [address everything also to Mr Kim - owner] that they provide proper and full documentation for each release of their App, as would any professional developer would.
This documentation must, at a minimum, include the Item was was reported as a Bug, the Fix that was applied, and where to observe the outcome, and any new Features included in the release. New Release docs must also include the Intended Functionality, how to access it, and if if replaces any previous functionality or GUI mods.
A few of us have been 'at' QiHe about this for some time, and I feel only if we maintain this demand are we ever likely to obtain a result.
Without this information, any new release is a Mystery Box at best. Things are sometimes observed to have changed but, are they actually functioning as designed and intended, these and other questions which it raises only make things next to impossible to provide any meaningful feedback to other and to QiHe.
Sorry about the rant - but I feel it's very important - both for them and for us, and I'd really appreciate your effort and support in this request to them.
Hope the 'pointer' helped - Pete
-
Thanks for the notes. We are testing 1.35 right now. Either way, I think I'll try openpnp too. Looks promising. I've tried to compile Glens' driver for TVM920, it went kind of ok. When machine will be less busy, I'll try to switch over at least for one project.
-
OpenPnP has great potential however, for the moment, we have given up on it as it is just too many things for too many people. It's the 'please everyone' solution and as a result it becomes FAR more complicated to deal with and comprehend [assuming you are working on mods] than just dealing with what you already have IMO.
It would be sensational of it could be 'filtered' for a particular machine right up front to exclude all irrelevant functions and code - but that's a huge job! and not expected of anyone to undertake.
No doubt Michael's software in Germany/China would resolve a lot of things IF it could be properly directed to a machine like the TVM920 - and tested before release. Hardware in the TVM920 is great [for the money], but their insistence in continuing to protect a terrible piece of software and not opening up the source is holding back this companies sales tremendously IMO. It's difficult to comprehend how they can be so 'blind' to this issue, and at the same time attempt to save pennies by not commissioning a native English speaking person to write a manual and instruction video.
Good luck - I'll be interested to learn how you go with the OpenPnP.
BTW - what's the nature of the component-mix/range you're generally placing with the TVM920, and what's your experience with regard to its accuracy?
Peter
-
It's difficult to comprehend how they can be so 'blind' to this issue, and at the same time attempt to save pennies by not commissioning a native English speaking person to write a manual and instruction video.
I think it's a cultural thing about not "losing face" by admitting they need external help. It's holding a lot of Chinese businesses back from selling in the West.
Or maybe they sell enough domestically that they don't think it's worth it, though that's somewhat of a chicken-egg situation
-
So far we made ~300 boards. Usually it's 80-150 parts per board. Placement error rate is quite high. Sometimes 10 boards in a row are fine, but sometimes you need to fix at least one part per board.
Components which works ok:
- Passive 0603.
- Small diodes, transistors
- Mid range packages, like so8, so16.
Problems:
- Sometimes part is lifted at weird angle and vision is unable to help. Bad aligned feeder, or something stuck.
- Bigger LFQP64-100 packages sometimes are placed by some offset, sometimes rotated a little bit, just enough that it would cause short on 2 pins or even more.
- Big parts, like RF modules, which are >40mm or so wont fit into vision angle of view, and it's difficult to place them reliably. Usually we need to do some calibration every morning to get those parts placed.
The thing we are missing is repeatablity. Someone in the forum has noticed, that nozzles a little bit wobbly. Maybe part rotation servos aren't precise enough. Maybe controlling software is buggy. I guess we are to find out in a months while using it. My attempt at openpnp, should rule out PC software problems, assuming software in the controller is ok.
I've attached picture of the board, which is most complicated we assembled yet. Those big caps are placed by hand. Even they are 10 mm height, we were unable to use p&p on them.
-
Thanks for the feedback.
I don't think QiHe take their SW development very seriously. From their point of view I reckon they believe the software is 'done' now, and that's it.
There doesn't appear to be any attempt at a managed, development path, let alone for the improvement of existing functionality.
So there is definitely still room for a 3rd party solution, but for us that solution is not going to be OpenPnP at this stage.
With regard to your component placement, are all of your part loaded via their VISION system, or is it dependent on the component? Do you get those erratic results even when you use the EXACT option?
I ask this because we are having an issue at present which is leading us to believe that there are irregularities when using their Vision system. We believe that some of the 'compensation' values [like the offsets, or distance matching values] are not being applied after the 'pick' stage.
It would be interesting to know what you observed when placing the same component in different Vision options - None, Quick, Exact.
Is this with V1.35 beta?
Are you also finding the the ORIGIN wanders from reboot to reboot?
There is definitely a Bug in V1.35 which can cause a crash, after which the Origin needs to be completely reset for all values, FIDs, Feeders, Offsets - the lot! because it selects new 'X&Y' values.
Peter
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- Big parts, like RF modules, which are >40mm or so wont fit into vision angle of view, and it's difficult to place them reliably. Usually we need to do some calibration every morning to get those parts placed.
A machine should be able to vision oversize parts by moving it around to see each corner.
I'm totally not surprised that a Chinese manufacturer didn't think of this
-
Thanks for the feedback.
I don't think QiHe take their SW development very seriously. From their point of view I reckon they believe the software is 'done' now, and that's it.
There doesn't appear to be any attempt at a managed, development path, let alone for the improvement of existing functionality.
This is pretty much par for the course for any Chinese product. I have no doubt that if you could see the source it would be a total unstructured mess.
The Chinese simply haven't figured out how to design software yet.
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With regard to your component placement, are all of your part loaded via their VISION system, or is it dependent on the component? Do you get those erratic results even when you use the EXACT option?
We try to use vision on every component, which is allowed by size. Also we try to use 'quick' vision, instead of 'exact' to save time. Generally IC's are set for exact, passives for quick. For some components we had to adjust "Vision factor" (edge sensitivity) to get it work. I can't say that we get erratic results with 'exact' vision setting, but sometimes they are erratic for sure. Few posts ago, I've posted a problem, with random component rotation during nozzle down operation. Qikeh admited that some of their customers had this problem and they advised to adjust 'down to pcb' height. We've tried that, but I still have no conclusive results about that, because that problem appeared quite randomly.
By the way vision system was working poorly with the cheap plastic window above the camera. When we've removed that plastic, we've got way better performance. For some small components without contrast edges it changed from totally unworkable to normal.
It looks like that exact setting for vision tries to rotate part, but in quite visible incremental steps. Maybe it fails during that process. Maybe part misses alignment on the nozzle during movement. Even we tried slow transport. This won't matter for most components, but big LQFP packages are really sensitive to this.
We believe that some of the 'compensation' values [like the offsets, or distance matching values] are not being applied after the 'pick' stage.
In my opinion, the only setting is applied after vision is "Offset with down camera center to nozzle". This needs to be calibrated quite often. Especially after changing the nozzle, or different moon phase.
Is this with V1.35 beta?
Are you also finding the the ORIGIN wanders from reboot to reboot?
There is definitely a Bug in V1.35 which can cause a crash, after which the Origin needs to be completely reset for all values, FIDs, Feeders, Offsets - the lot! because it selects new 'X&Y' values.
We are testing v1.35, but only for a couple of days, so it's early to say something. We do "home" calibration after each reboot. I'm not sure if we loose settings after program crashes, but maybe it's easy to backup .par config files?
-
hi
sorry for puzzle of pirces.
we will updata the price and unify the price.
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About offsets.
For the best result, when using two fiducials, it is necessary to recalibrate the movement coefficients along the X and Y axes. It is not so important how much they correspond to the real, the main thing is that the "machine mm" along the X axis is equal to the Y axis. From this there is an error along the edges of the PCB outside the axis between fiducials.
The main idea: in the settings you need to specify the axis of rotation of the nozzle, not the tip. The axis position is more stable even you change the nozzle.
With parallel transfer, the displacement of the tip of the nozzle does not matter. The main thing is that the part has been captured.
When rotating, the center of the part must be on the axis of rotation of the nozzle.
To configure nozzles from "down camera".
I put a thick layer of plasticine (about 1-2 mm) on a black block at the height of the PCB. Then from the empty feeder I put the virtual part 8 times changing the angle from 0 to 315 degrees through 45. The center of imprint is the axis of rotation of the nozzle. I use it in the settings.
To configure nozzles from "up camera".
The center of the nozzle does not correspond to its axis of rotation. To check this, just place the nozzle above the "up camera" and in the manual mode rotate 180 degrees. I use the geometric center for the nozzle rotated by 0 and 180 degrees in the settings.
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(From a longer post over in the overview thread, also in the CHMT thread...)
At the risk of being overly simplified, in the $10k range, the choice seems between the CHMT530P4 and the Qihe TVM920, with the price difference mostly attributable to number of feeders supported by the 920 (56 -vs-30)
Is there anything in the EEVBlog collective mind's experience that would swing the pointer one way or the other, if feeder quantity wasn't a factor?
John
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Hi JP,
We own the 920 and I haven't looked at Charmhigh's product for some time now.
If they are still not doing 56+ feeders, then the 920 is a no-brainer. Those feeders fill up at an alarming rate, and because they are so inexpensive, we now have a dedicated feeder for each of our components.
Initially, the reason we didn't consider the Charmhigh was because you were limited to a machine-mounted screen for the GUI. Having to stand/sit right next to the machine and use that tiny display would have driven me mad!
Also, it appeared that the 920's X&Y axis were more rugged that the Charmhigh model.
Either way, you won't know yourself once you bring this in-house.
One very important factor that seems to be given little consideration is what to do once the board is loaded - eg the Reflow oven.
Give this some serious consideration because it will have a major effect of your in-house PnP 'pleasure rating' I reckon.
Thommo
-
is anyone here in touch with QiHE? have they closed shop?
-
yeah - we are
why do you say that?
-
Website is down, several products on aliexpress are listed as unavailable, none of their Skype contacts are ever online or have responded in several months...
Looking for software updates on specific vision issues, any news?
-
Well, I know some people have left the company recently, so that may explain the Skype situation.
QiHe are not really a 'service or after-sales' driven company unfortunately, and we too are finding it very difficult to get reasonable responses to reasonable questions, in a reasonable time frame of late.
Interesting that a number of alternative, very promising looking machines have been made available lately. We are considering another machine ourselves and are questioning if QiHe is still worth the pain.
This machine in particular caught our eye.
http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html (http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html)
6 Heads
Ball Screw drive on X axis
64 Slots
7 Cameras - 6 simultaneous, and a separate one for large components
PCB Conveyor
Stand/Cabinet
USD$11,400
Website is down, several products on aliexpress are listed as unavailable, none of their Skype contacts are ever online or have responded in several months...
Looking for software updates on specific vision issues, any news?
-
Hi Thommo,
http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html (http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html)
6 Heads
Ball Screw drive on X axis
64 Slots
7 Cameras - 6 simultaneous, and a separate one for large components
PCB Conveyor
Stand/Cabinet
USD$11,400
Wow, this machine looks like being in a different league.
Is the ball screw version they call HW-T6-64F ?
Do you have some trusted source of information about the machine
outside of the manufacturer?
Are the feeders and the compressor included in the price you have mentioned?
Are they shipping it out of China?
-
No further info at this stage - sorry, but if you find anything please post it for everyone's benefit
Feeders & Factory Air - almost never included in machine cost
Yes - it is definitely a Step Up and all in the right direction too
Not confirmed, but can just about guarantee they are shipping out of CN, as that is where this machine is manufactured
-
DTF,
It seems that I'm also getting the 'cold [QiHe] shoulder' treatment at the moment too!
It's such a shame that Chinese companies are so ignorant of the basics of business, and fundamental expectations, of the Rest of the World [at least the Western bit, and goodness help you if you're European].
It wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't such an underlying arrogance about it, but i guess that's what comes from decades of undervaluing the Human element - life's still a cheap commodity - at least that's how it seems to be in CN.
It's just a shame that it's not SO CHEAP that they can be bothered to identify an English-educated Tech Support Team, and provide them with sufficient resources to work properly with!
-
Well, I know some people have left the company recently, so that may explain the Skype situation.
QiHe are not really a 'service or after-sales' driven company unfortunately, and we too are finding it very difficult to get reasonable responses to reasonable questions, in a reasonable time frame of late.
Interesting that a number of alternative, very promising looking machines have been made available lately. We are considering another machine ourselves and are questioning if QiHe is still worth the pain.
This machine in particular caught our eye.
http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html (http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html)
6 Heads
Ball Screw drive on X axis
64 Slots
7 Cameras - 6 simultaneous, and a separate one for large components
PCB Conveyor
Stand/Cabinet
USD$11,400
I found this one on Aliexpress ($11200 USD including shipping)... and it sure looks similar and/or could be the same one that you referenced with better pictures and English info:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Stability-Visual-Position-Placement-Machine-Pick-Place-Machine-with-64-Feeders-and-Servo-Motor-for/32821254406.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.150.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-21&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Stability-Visual-Position-Placement-Machine-Pick-Place-Machine-with-64-Feeders-and-Servo-Motor-for/32821254406.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.150.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-21&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3)
Also a smaller version too ($7400 USD including shipping):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-Place-Machine-SMT460-With-Conveyor-0201-BGA-Led-SMD-T-Industrial-Equipments/32832988812.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.163.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-23&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-Place-Machine-SMT460-With-Conveyor-0201-BGA-Led-SMD-T-Industrial-Equipments/32832988812.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.163.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-23&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3)
Cheers,
Sam
-
Hi Sam,
Note that the SMT660 from your first link is the machine with the belt drive on the X axis.
There seems to be also version with ball screw on X axis which is supposed to be more accurate.
-
I was just poking around on the QiHi web site. I must say, their corporate headquarters building sure looks impressive. :palm:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRd6ZfoWkAQbriw.jpg)
http://www.qihekj.com/home.html (http://www.qihekj.com/home.html)
-
Don't be too harsh on them, its very easy to make mistakes like that and use the wrong picture of your headquarters :-DD
-
Well, I know some people have left the company recently, so that may explain the Skype situation.
QiHe are not really a 'service or after-sales' driven company unfortunately, and we too are finding it very difficult to get reasonable responses to reasonable questions, in a reasonable time frame of late.
Interesting that a number of alternative, very promising looking machines have been made available lately. We are considering another machine ourselves and are questioning if QiHe is still worth the pain.
This machine in particular caught our eye.
http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html (http://www.smthw.com/Product-detail-id-546151.html)
6 Heads
Ball Screw drive on X axis
64 Slots
7 Cameras - 6 simultaneous, and a separate one for large components
PCB Conveyor
Stand/Cabinet
USD$11,400
I found this one on Aliexpress ($11200 USD including shipping)... and it sure looks similar and/or could be the same one that you referenced with better pictures and English info:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Stability-Visual-Position-Placement-Machine-Pick-Place-Machine-with-64-Feeders-and-Servo-Motor-for/32821254406.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.150.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-21&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Stability-Visual-Position-Placement-Machine-Pick-Place-Machine-with-64-Feeders-and-Servo-Motor-for/32821254406.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.150.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-21&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3)
Also a smaller version too ($7400 USD including shipping):
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-Place-Machine-SMT460-With-Conveyor-0201-BGA-Led-SMD-T-Industrial-Equipments/32832988812.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.163.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-23&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Technology-Pick-Place-Machine-SMT460-With-Conveyor-0201-BGA-Led-SMD-T-Industrial-Equipments/32832988812.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.163.5I2wKD&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10065_5000015_10151_10344_10068_10130_10345_10342_10547_10343_10340_10341_10548_5130015_10541_10084_10083_10139_10307_10539_5080015_10312_10059_10313_10314_10534_100031_10604_10603_10103_10605_5060015_10596_10142_10107,searchweb201603_14,ppcSwitch_7&algo_expid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3-23&algo_pvid=37202cac-c903-4f8b-927d-d77ce772b8b3&rmStoreLevelAB=3)
Cheers,
Sam
Just looked at the videos & they are the most promising Chinese machines I've seen so far. Sensible Z height (20mm) and proper feeders.
Also a board path that looks like it could handle doing long boards in multiple passes.
No tool change AFAICS but with 4/6 heads this is probably less of an issue.
Software looks like it might be marginally less sucky than others ( not hard)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0KxOM2xRPQ&list=PLYMhrdK38j9vNn-jcDfGYzXV_y7FTMIjD&index=3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0KxOM2xRPQ&list=PLYMhrdK38j9vNn-jcDfGYzXV_y7FTMIjD&index=3)
Watching the vids the machine behaviour looks fairly sensible, and doesn't seem to be wasting much time.
e.g. in slow mode it moves quickly to the pick position, unlike Neoden.
There's a playlist of "training" videos - looks like it can mostly speak English, apart from a few dialogs..
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLetn4MpXKByrofSypSCD-bH9AQZ4V_2gz (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLetn4MpXKByrofSypSCD-bH9AQZ4V_2gz)
The SMT460 looks significantly more promising than the Neoden4 in a similar price range
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The SMT460 looks significantly more promising than the Neoden4 in a similar price range
Although the Aliexpress listings aren't 100% clear about what feeder types are included, and some listings show free shipping and others over $3K....
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The cost of these machines does NOT include any feeders. They all take standard Yamaha CL type feeders however.
The best of these 6 head/7 camera machines I have identified is made by a company called KAYO http://en.kayosmt.com/ (http://en.kayosmt.com/)
Ask to speak with Jenny Wang and tell her I recommended you.
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So, for the cost, it is really difficult to go past a machine like the TVM920 because they are around HALF the cost of those other machines, and not too many users really require a 6 Head machine for small production and protos.
Having said that, we are currently considering replacing ours with a substantially larger 2nd hand Yamaha, [but a several times the cost also], just so we can up our in-house production.
TVM920 FOR SALE
If anyone out there [in Australia - we are based in MELB] is considering getting their hands on an 'as new' TVM920 and is interested in saving some $
then feel free to contact me. Of course the other option is to just keep it as a backup, but it's unlikely that it would see enough use in this role [at least I hope] :-) and would take up valuable space.
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The cost of these machines does NOT include any feeders. They all take standard Yamaha CL type feeders however.
The best of these 6 head/7 camera machines I have identified is made by a company called KAYO http://en.kayosmt.com/ (http://en.kayosmt.com/)
Ask to speak with Jenny Wang and tell her I recommended you.
Best in what way ?
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Regarding the Kayo machines, we're currently looking at purchasing one. I'll be going to their Shenzhen factory to inspect their equipment later this month.
Unfortunately this will be our first foray into in-house production, so I'm probably not the best placed to ask the tricky questions...
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Regarding the Kayo machines, we're currently looking at purchasing one. I'll be going to their Shenzhen factory to inspect their equipment later this month.
Unfortunately this will be our first foray into in-house production, so I'm probably not the best placed to ask the tricky questions...
Take a really simple board design with you and ask them to show it being set up from scratch
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So has anyone spoken with qihe recently, like in the past 2-3 months?
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yeah
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What's their latest skype contact?
Any software updates? No reply from them since posting about large part angle problems, also looking for vision improvements
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I've contacted them by sales email sales3@qihekj.com . Purchased some spare parts. They were quite responsive, provided new SucfaceMountTouch_EN_V1.41Beta1 software. Can't say that it's better, but at least they are working on something.
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Order form unclear, received Falcon Heavy. Lawsuit from homeowners association. Would not buy again. F---- :--
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KE5FX,
Which company did you order from?
I'm about to order SMT460 with 44 feeders and conveyor.
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44 feeders is not enough... Unless you are doing single design. In which case you are better off outsourcing assembly altogether. Remember feeders larger than 8mm take more than one slot. One 12mm will take 3 slots, two 12mm will take 5 etc.
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Thank you, you saved me $10,500. I'm buying a Universal Instruments model instead.
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I guess you’re aware that there is a SMT660 model also (with 60 feeders), and the QiHe TVM920 (with 56 feeders), not to mention the Kayo machines.
I’ve not heard about the company Universal Instruments - do you have a link?
Peter
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Tommo Universal are a huge player in manufacturing equipment.
Originaly in leaded axial and radial taped componet handling and processing as well as in DIP package insertion and later in SMD game.
A huge player pricewise beyond my league.
What i could afford from Universal would not cover current fine pitch technology.
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What do you mean current fine pitch technology?
Used Universal's run around $5-15k. SMT660 is $12k (SMT880 is $15k). Both run 0201 components and are 10k cph. I do have to produce medium volumes (machine runs 8/hrs daily). I am dying for lights out operation.
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FYI guys - just remember that SMT are not manufacturers - they are agents selling on Aliexpress.
For this reason we suggest Kayo [who are also more expensive] but you speak with the Butcher, not his Block when you deal with them. They have also just released a 8 head machine with 72 Feeder capacity.
In any event, this section of chat began with the suggestion that 44 feeders wouldn't be sufficient. We agree totally with that statement [unless you only ever intend producing a board that only requires 44 slots] :-)
As for 2nd hand machinery - you may be lucky, but remember, it is being sold for a reason.
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Is Kayo the manufacturer for SMT?
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No - they are independent and actually make their own [different from SMT] designs. But you need to compare closely as fundamentally they appear the same. Not surprisingly, Kayo say SMT 'copy' their designs, but with some shortcuts [and most probably, if you could speak with the manufacturer directly, SMT would say the same].
We investigated the SMT situation a while back and they swore black and blue that they were the actual manufacturer of the machine - not a distributor or agent, but the manufacturer. When we discovered this wasn't true we immediately lost faith and all interest in dealing with them.
From our limited experience, the closer you can get to the source with CN manufacturers, the more likely the outcome will 'remain' a success, because it's only when thing begin to go wrong that the relationship will be tested. At that point the agent/distributor has already made all the profit they're likely to make from you, whereas the manufacturer has their brand to protect and are most generally keen to receive genuine, positive feedback and suggestions. Just saying.
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Reckless,
When making your purchase decision be certain to take into account the actual Feeder type which your machine will use. It's for this reason that these CN machines are attractive because they accept the time-tested Yamaha CL feeder series, which you can buy 'new' in CN for ~$55 per 8mm feeder. I doubt that Universal Instruments machine accept these feeders, so you may be paying up to 4x + for a single 8mm feeder for their machine.
It's not all as straight-forward as it first appears on the surface.
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Think Thommos advice is pretty correct for any machinery purchase out of china.
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This has been a very tough decision for me. Both units are running same price, same theoretical speeds. One is overbuilt, one is underbuilt. One has service/parts available, one doesn't. One has long track record, one doesn't. One uses proprietary feeders 24V/42V feeders one doesn't. One is worth money used, the other isn't. One is refurb the other new. One is huge, the other is medium. One is the original the other a clone. One has 20,000 in the field the other 400.
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You guys drive me nuts :). I switch from super euphoric to pessimistic about these machines at least twice a day.
From our limited experience, the closer you can get to the source with CN manufacturers, the more likely the outcome will 'remain' a success,...
That's why i try to find the real manufacturer for a few days now, but couldn't find anything but a few clues and a lot of dead ends.
Does anyone have any experience with borey/boreytech? Their machines look ~95% identical(e.g. SMT-W1 vs SMT460/660) but i have a somewhat better feeling.
Vision, software, guides all are identical, just the case and the button arrangement is different.
https://boreytech.en.alibaba.com/product/60705902176-802537962/BOREY_Pick_And_Place_Machine_Chip_Mounter_Pick_And_Place_SMT_Machine.html (https://boreytech.en.alibaba.com/product/60705902176-802537962/BOREY_Pick_And_Place_Machine_Chip_Mounter_Pick_And_Place_SMT_Machine.html)
Pros:
- Pictures from their production site(must not be real) and trade shows
- More technical details: detailed photos, suppliers,...
- There is the address of the factory on the website and i have read something about factory tours
- Fulfills all my needs ;)
Cons:
-Maybe just another distributor with a better cover
-English version of the website doesn't work anymore
-Malware warning on the website http://boreytech.com/product/tiepianji/305.html (http://boreytech.com/product/tiepianji/305.html) BE CAREFUL (i used a VM)
The reason why i want a small chinese P&P is because i think it would really make sense for my business and there are no alternatives(for a similar price)
At the moment i do almost everything by hand and outsource just a few designs. For example i can't assemble a very dense LED array with 300 LEDs.
The main goal is not to save money but to reduce turnaround time and increase flexibility. Also outsourcing the assembly step cost some labour time(send inquiry, prepare documents, send order, answer questions) and isn't cheap for prototypes.
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Reckless,
When making your purchase decision be certain to take into account the actual Feeder type which your machine will use. It's for this reason that these CN machines are attractive because they accept the time-tested Yamaha CL feeder series, which you can buy 'new' in CN for ~$55 per 8mm feeder. I doubt that Universal Instruments machine accept these feeders, so you may be paying up to 4x + for a single 8mm feeder for their machine.
It's not all as straight-forward as it first appears on the surface.
Is there any benefit to Universal Instruments feeders? I only need 40 8mm feeders and a few vibration feeders.
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Well, Kayo is a real factory and the photos are real too - I know someone who has visited them.
http://en.kayosmt.com/ (http://en.kayosmt.com/)
Good luck
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FYI guys - just remember that SMT are not manufacturers - they are agents selling on Aliexpress.
For this reason we suggest Kayo [who are also more expensive] but you speak with the Butcher, not his Block when you deal with them. They have also just released a 8 head machine with 72 Feeder capacity.
In any event, this section of chat began with the suggestion that 44 feeders wouldn't be sufficient. We agree totally with that statement [unless you only ever intend producing a board that only requires 44 slots] :-)
As for 2nd hand machinery - you may be lucky, but remember, it is being sold for a reason.
Thommo,
I checked out Kayo's website. My pcb needs 33 feeders. I am considering a desktop unit. It looks like theirs only takes 23 feeders?
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25* feeders. Are you sure they are better than SMT company? Atleast theirs had 44 slots. I do agree they are not the manufacturer.
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25* feeders. Are you sure they are better than SMT company? Atleast theirs had 44 slots. I do agree they are not the manufacturer.
I can ONLY qualify my comment based on the person selling me the item not telling the truth, and exaggerating the situation in their favor. as for the machines, they appear similar but I know a person who has seen and touched the KAYO machines - not the SMT ones. So this is your call based on the information you have [or just s gut feeling if that's what you prefer].
KAYO make several models up to 72 feeder slots in their top machine. You need to look a bit more carefully at their website I think, and you find them readily.
If there's ANY advice I can give you, its this - don't buy based solely on a single design requirements without allowance for overhead and variation. It is also relatively unusual to find a design that uses 33 discrete components and have them all fit on 8mm tape - are you certain of this, or are you intending to hand-load some of the parts?
Peter
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I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go. I can fit more of them in tight spaces. Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway.
My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs. Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder.
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The SmallSMT guy reckoned his gear was the ducks nuts. Wonder how thats going.
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I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go. I can fit more of them in tight spaces. Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway.
My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs. Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder.
Good luck - unless you go with [a minimum] of the Yamaha CL feeder, then you can safely expect the need to standby the machine and monitor while it loads. Those Tape / drag machines are very lonely beasts, and tend to require to be kept company most of the time.
If you want table-top then I recommend QiHe920 or their smaller, 44 feeder machine. Both use Yamaha CL feeders.
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A machine whihc feels like a real machine...performs like a real machine ... and has no softare issues...
http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/ (http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/)
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I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go. I can fit more of them in tight spaces. Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway.
My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs. Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder.
Good luck - unless you go with [a minimum] of the Yamaha CL feeder, then you can safely expect the need to standby the machine and monitor while it loads. Those Tape / drag machines are very lonely beasts, and tend to require to be kept company most of the time.
If you want table-top then I recommend QiHe920 or their smaller, 44 feeder machine. Both use Yamaha CL feeders.
I thought the SMT460 uses yamaha CL feeder? The Qihe people are very slow to respond to sales inquiries. SMT responds in 1 min average. The SMT unit has higher z axis spec, conveyors, higherr mounting accuracy, much bigger pcb area.
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A machine whihc feels like a real machine...performs like a real machine ... and has no softare issues...
http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/ (http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/)
But extremely slow, 1800 cph. See this video of SMT460:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6K3cPnNmAw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6K3cPnNmAw)
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So after googling even more. I did find that the issue with SMT460 unit is not hardware. It is software. There is a google group describing the issues and it put me off. I was one second away from charging it on my credit card.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/Qe7Bev7nwoY
Will check out Kayo now.
UPDATE: KAYO prices are very high. SMT440 company is allowing me to purchase via paypal with 6 month paypal protection that their machine works and I will be happy. It's a very tempting offer. Tomorrow I am looking at an older Universal Instruments GSM machine which is running twice as much and takes 5x the space.
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Hey, guys, I'm inviting you try our TVM920 processing util. You will notice there a support for 802 machine well, however it is not actively supported so it can be buggy.
It takes Eagle's *.brd file as an input, and allows to make full configuration of the assembly job before sending to the QIHE application.
No proper doc yet, but I'll write a quick reference here.
1. load File - that should be obvious. Note that even though you specify only BRD file, it will also read corresponding SCH file for additional part info.
2. Variant - it supports Eagles board assembly variants, if you have on the PCB.
3. Side, Machine : that's self evident. Note that one type of the machine is BOM. It allows you to edit values of the parts... but more on this later.
4. Nozzle. When you export the date for QIHE, this field specifies the nozzle setup that you prefer. If you don't like any of the nozzle setups, you can add more in the StaticConfigData file.
5. Fiducials. It will find your fiducials, if their name or their package's name starts with "FID". Normally if it found the pair it will be a good pair, even if you have more than two. They will be a pair of the most distant fiducials, and the first will always be to left of the second. "Show fiducials" does not do anything for now. Configure Fiducials (...) also does not work, I think.
Angle. Allows you to rotate the board in the machine. Angle is measured counterclockwise.
6. When you load the file, it will automatically assign the nozzle to the part. First, it scan the StaticConfigData for any packages that match. Then it will scan the part library. If still no hit, it will use part dimensions to select the proper nozzle. It tend to pick larger than necessary, so pay attention.
7. Once loaded, you can edit the height, speed, and all other parameteres relevant to the placement.
8. Save and load part library. Once you set the parameters as you like, you can save them all into part library, and it will hold all of the important info, such as orientation, height, etc.
9. Orientation. Properly setting orientation for QIHE is a PIA, so we tried to stream line it a bit. As you scroll up and down, on the right side the program will show the orientation of the package, how the program expects it to find in the feeder. If the part comes from a reel feeder, orientation of the part in the FRONT feeder should match the one in the application. Even if the part is installed in rear feeder. If the part is taken from tray feeder, it needs to be in the same orientation as seen from the front of the machine. Use the arrow buttons to rotate the package.
10. Feeder column. Allows you to specify the source of the part. Initially all feeders start off as "unassigned". You can select from a drop down menu, or you can type the feeder name. Once you assigned the nozzle that field turns green for the part. It provides easy way to verify that all parts are explicitly assigned. If the feeder is correct, but does not show in green, you can use drop down menu or Ctrl-A to change it to "assigned". It won't allow you put two parts onto one feeder. If you assign already in use feeder to some part, it will move that other part to another free feeder.
11. Nozzle column. If you don't want to place certian part, you can select "manual". That part will not be exported to QIHE app.
12. "Show Unique" leaves only one part instance per unique part on the board.
13. "Display" if you have the board opened in Eagle, it will highlight the part(s) in the board or schematic as you select them in the list.
Well that's the key functions that should let you get started.
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Every time you click "export TVM" it will create a corresponding XML file. So if you started a job configuration, but can't complete it, you can export current state. Next time you open the same board it will read everything that you configured so far from the matching XML file.
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QIHE updated nozzle holder on the TVM920. The got rid of the magnet, got rid of the o-ring, and added metal balls to hold the nozzle in place. Definite improvement over previous design. Nozzle sits very firmly now, but it is easier to insert and easier to take out.
I damaged a shaft on one of the A motors on my machine, so I ordered a couple for replacement. Now I regret I did not order 4 :)
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I got a new s/w for TVM920. it has new parameters in the feeders config window: Factor and Check. Has anyone figured out their meaning?
thanks!
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I got a new s/w for TVM920.
OK, I just got to know: How do you do this? QIHE does not send me any updates or whatever, so do you bug them on a regular basis or what?
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Well not regularly, but I was getting some spare parts and asked a new s/w as well. They send it to me via skype
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It does seem that they are selling TVM925 now and it does look like they are phasing out the TVM920?
It runs on Windows from the photos.
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Windows updates, just what a PNP needs. No doubt it will shut down and restart (if you're lucky) just when you wanted to start a production run.
The TVM920 was in our top 3 list, but will not be replaced with the 925.
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Windows updates, just what a PNP needs. No doubt it will shut down and restart (if you're lucky) just when you wanted to start a production run.
The TVM920 was in our top 3 list, but will not be replaced with the 925.
This does not make sense. TVM920 also requires windows PC. If you worry about updates, take it off the internet.
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TVM925 running looks faster than tvm920 . Seems 4 CCD cameras right ？ :o
A clever design with windows system PC inside machine .
I watched a video from Qihe website
http://www.qhsmt.com/shibinzhongxin/newqihetvm925ppmachine.html (http://www.qhsmt.com/shibinzhongxin/newqihetvm925ppmachine.html)
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Hey guys
Anybody who konws about or purchased a TVM925 ?
How is the design and practicality compares with the old model TVM920？
Very interested in this machine
Any experience will be helpful ^-^
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Finally found the TVM925 video！！
seems much better than TVM920 model
LQFP100 placing looks really impressive !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7kfSupIT9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7kfSupIT9Q)
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Has there been any more progress with the open-pnp project on the TVM920? Are users happy with the TVM920? I've been lurking on this forum in hopes of getting some good vibes before I pull the trigger on one of these. I was fairly optimistic until the last few posts and it seems things have died down on this? Is there a better machine out there for around the same price? I'm also looking at the TVM925. It looks like it has 6 heads instead of 4. Any help would be appreciated! BTW I currently have the Neoden TM-240A and have been limping along with it for a while with my projects.
Thanks in advance!
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Finally found the TVM925 video！！
seems much better than TVM920 model
LQFP100 placing looks really impressive !
It takes about 20 seconds to look at the ic before placing it, what is it doing all that time ? :-//
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...
It takes about 20 seconds to look at the ic before placing it, what is it doing all that time ? :-//
like with the TVM820 and others, the QiHE software has a serious problem with the camera. If I set vision to "accurate" (TVM820) then the adjustment takes a very long time, and is still not perfect. So I am using the quick-mode only, which is much faster and has almost the same accuracy as the accurate-mode.
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Hello,
Which version is Your software ?
THX.
Zoltan
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Hi again,
Where can be fount the new nozzle holder ?
THX.
Z.
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Finally found the TVM925 video！！
seems much better than TVM920 model
LQFP100 placing looks really impressive !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7kfSupIT9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7kfSupIT9Q)
Well, the placement rate for the small passives was a LOT better than many of the other low-cost machines! That was really nice to see! The camera alignment cycle on the LQFP was pretty slow, however. But, the placement looked really accurate. Better than my mechanical alignment machine does them!
This shows some REAL promise.
Jon
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A machine whihc feels like a real machine...performs like a real machine ... and has no softare issues...
http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/ (http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/)
very late answer.
Yes Mechatronika has no software issues because their software is rubbish and incomplete and doesn't support any good features.
Are you able to store the component pitch to the actual component in the component database? Let me answer it: no, it needs to be done every time the pitch in a feeder slot changes.
Component alignment heavily depends on the temperature, and needs to be set up again and again after time (maybe this is just a problem of their biggest machine). Put that machine into an office and don't heat it over night - that won't work due to the mechanical misalignment of the entire build.
The optical recognition of components is not reliable (we gave up after a few hours trying to train TSSOPs from OnSemi, while other ones worked fine. It's not funny if the machine fails to optically detect 3-4 parts out of 10 and throws them into the bin).
Now we have changed that stuff to our own application using opencv and it's okay but the time we have spent on that is nothing that Mechatronika would refund to us. They said they have tested OpenCV and it's too slow, that's not our/my experience. The optical recognition library they are using was licensed from a Belgium company (who knows if they have implemented it correctly..). Basically everything that needs a bit detailed knowledge is bought from external companies.
Everytime you contact that company you'll get a response of one of the bosses directly (it's a tiny company), and the bosses wrote the crap application by themselves.
We have sent a lot emails to them, and I'm by far not interested in a reply like: yes can be done... practically absolutely nothing was done during all the years (asked for multiselect to decrease the extreme amount of clicks that have to be made if someone wants to place a single component, or enable / disable PCBs in a panel). it needs 5 clicks to place a single component manually from a pick and place list, and if you need to place 10 you'll end up with 50 mouse clicks.
Instead of fixing bugs they prefer to teach workarounds to their customers, again most workarounds are not needed.
Such a machine can be operated by a novice if the software guides the operator what can and what has to be done and what has to be taken care about. But this machine lets the operator run straight into the knife if there's a problem the machine cannot handle properly, the software will just run over it blindly and absolutely dumb.
So yes their software does not have any bugs because it just moves components in a cartesian coordinate system without any smartness. If smartness is required it will fail.
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KAYO SMT engineer is online, our full automatic screen printer had come out, if any inquiry or technology problem can send messages.