Author Topic: Pick & Place MachineTVM920  (Read 162453 times)

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Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #525 on: March 04, 2018, 06:04:45 am »
This has been a very tough decision for me.  Both units are running same price, same theoretical speeds.  One is overbuilt, one is underbuilt.  One has service/parts available, one doesn't.  One has long track record, one doesn't.  One uses proprietary feeders 24V/42V feeders one doesn't.  One is worth money used, the other isn't.  One is refurb the other new.  One is huge, the other is medium.  One is the original the other a clone.  One has 20,000 in the field the other 400.



 

Offline 1uk3

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #526 on: March 04, 2018, 10:43:38 am »
You guys drive me nuts :). I switch from super euphoric to pessimistic about these machines at least twice a day.

From our limited experience, the closer you can get to the source with CN manufacturers, the more likely the outcome will 'remain' a success,...
That's why i try to find the real manufacturer for a few days now, but couldn't find anything but a few clues and a lot of dead ends.

Does anyone have any experience with borey/boreytech? Their machines look ~95% identical(e.g. SMT-W1 vs SMT460/660) but i have a somewhat better feeling.
Vision, software, guides all are identical, just the case and the button arrangement is different.
https://boreytech.en.alibaba.com/product/60705902176-802537962/BOREY_Pick_And_Place_Machine_Chip_Mounter_Pick_And_Place_SMT_Machine.html

Pros:
- Pictures from their production site(must not be real) and trade shows
- More technical details: detailed photos, suppliers,...
- There is the address of the factory on the website and i have read something about factory tours
- Fulfills all my needs  ;)
Cons:
-Maybe just another distributor with a better cover
-English version of the website doesn't work anymore
-Malware warning on the website http://boreytech.com/product/tiepianji/305.html BE CAREFUL (i used a VM)

The reason why i want a small chinese P&P is because i think it would really make sense for my business and there are no alternatives(for a similar price)
At the moment i do almost everything by hand and outsource just a few designs. For example i can't assemble a very dense LED array with 300 LEDs.
The main goal is not to save money but to reduce turnaround time and increase flexibility. Also outsourcing the assembly step cost some labour time(send inquiry, prepare documents, send order, answer questions) and isn't cheap for prototypes.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #527 on: March 04, 2018, 11:28:23 am »
Reckless,

When making your purchase decision be certain to take into account the actual Feeder type which your machine will use. It's for this reason that these CN machines are attractive because they accept the time-tested Yamaha CL feeder series, which you can buy 'new' in CN for ~$55 per 8mm feeder. I doubt that Universal Instruments machine accept these feeders, so you may be paying up to 4x + for a single 8mm feeder for their machine.

It's not all as straight-forward as it first appears on the surface.

Is there any benefit to Universal Instruments feeders?  I only need 40 8mm feeders and a few vibration feeders.
 

Offline thommo

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #528 on: March 04, 2018, 11:30:46 am »
Well, Kayo is a real factory and the photos are real too - I know someone who has visited them.

http://en.kayosmt.com/

Good luck
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #529 on: March 05, 2018, 02:02:09 am »
FYI guys - just remember that SMT are not manufacturers - they are agents selling on Aliexpress.

For this reason we suggest Kayo [who are also more expensive] but you speak with the Butcher, not his Block when you deal with them. They have also just released a 8 head machine with 72 Feeder capacity.

In any event, this section of chat began with the suggestion that 44 feeders wouldn't be sufficient. We agree totally with that statement [unless you only ever intend producing a board that only requires 44 slots] :-)

As for 2nd hand machinery - you may be lucky, but remember, it is being sold for a reason.

Thommo,
  I checked out Kayo's website.  My pcb needs 33 feeders.  I am considering a desktop unit.  It looks like theirs only takes 23 feeders?
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #530 on: March 05, 2018, 02:12:33 am »
25* feeders.  Are you sure they are better than SMT company?  Atleast theirs had 44 slots.  I do agree they are not the manufacturer. 
 

Offline thommo

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #531 on: March 05, 2018, 02:59:08 am »
25* feeders.  Are you sure they are better than SMT company?  Atleast theirs had 44 slots.  I do agree they are not the manufacturer.

I can ONLY qualify my comment based on the person selling me the item not telling the truth, and exaggerating the situation in their favor. as for the machines, they appear similar but I know a person who has seen and touched the KAYO machines - not the SMT ones. So this is your call based on the information you have [or just s gut feeling if that's what you prefer].

KAYO make several models up to 72 feeder slots in their top machine. You need to look a bit more carefully at their website I think, and you find them readily.

If there's ANY advice I can give you, its this - don't buy based solely on a single design requirements without allowance for overhead and variation. It is also relatively unusual to find a design that uses 33 discrete components and have them all fit on 8mm tape - are you certain of this, or are you intending to hand-load some of the parts?

Peter
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #532 on: March 05, 2018, 04:29:40 am »
I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go.  I can fit more of them in tight spaces.  Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway. 

My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs.  Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder. 
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #533 on: March 05, 2018, 05:27:52 am »
The SmallSMT guy reckoned his gear was the ducks nuts. Wonder how thats going.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline thommo

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #534 on: March 05, 2018, 05:28:13 am »
I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go.  I can fit more of them in tight spaces.  Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway. 

My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs.  Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder.

Good luck - unless you go with [a minimum] of the Yamaha CL feeder, then you can safely expect the need to standby the machine and monitor while it loads. Those Tape / drag machines are very lonely beasts, and tend to require to be kept company most of the time.

If you want table-top then I recommend QiHe920 or their smaller, 44 feeder machine. Both use Yamaha CL feeders.
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #535 on: March 05, 2018, 06:34:02 am »
A machine whihc feels like a real machine...performs like a real machine ... and has no softare issues...

http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #536 on: March 05, 2018, 09:01:01 am »
I started feeling that table top machines are the way to go.  I can fit more of them in tight spaces.  Kayo's bigger units wont fit through my office doorway. 

My plan is if I can find working table top machines to set them up so I dont need change overs.  Some of the parts are through hole and may not work with vacuum feeder.

Good luck - unless you go with [a minimum] of the Yamaha CL feeder, then you can safely expect the need to standby the machine and monitor while it loads. Those Tape / drag machines are very lonely beasts, and tend to require to be kept company most of the time.

If you want table-top then I recommend QiHe920 or their smaller, 44 feeder machine. Both use Yamaha CL feeders.

I thought the SMT460 uses yamaha CL feeder?  The Qihe people are very slow to respond to sales inquiries.  SMT responds in 1 min average.  The SMT unit has higher z axis spec, conveyors, higherr mounting accuracy, much bigger pcb area. 
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #537 on: March 05, 2018, 09:07:26 am »
A machine whihc feels like a real machine...performs like a real machine ... and has no softare issues...

http://www.mechatronika.com.pl/content/view/21/4/lang,en/

But extremely slow, 1800 cph.  See this video of SMT460:
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #538 on: March 05, 2018, 07:12:33 pm »
So after googling even more.  I did find that the issue with SMT460 unit is not hardware.  It is software.  There is a google group describing the issues and it put me off.  I was one second away from charging it on my credit card. 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/openpnp/Qe7Bev7nwoY

Will check out Kayo now. 

UPDATE:  KAYO prices are very high.  SMT440 company is allowing me to purchase via paypal with 6 month paypal protection that their machine works and I will be happy.  It's a very tempting offer.  Tomorrow I am looking at an older Universal Instruments GSM machine which is running twice as much and takes 5x the space. 

« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 05:19:48 am by Reckless »
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #539 on: March 17, 2018, 04:51:59 pm »
Hey, guys, I'm inviting you try our TVM920 processing util. You will notice there a support for 802 machine well, however it is not actively supported so it can be buggy.

It takes Eagle's *.brd file as an input, and allows to make full configuration of the assembly job before sending to the QIHE application.

No proper doc yet, but I'll write a quick reference here.
1. load File - that should be obvious. Note that even though you specify only BRD file, it will also read corresponding SCH file for additional part info.

2. Variant - it supports Eagles board assembly variants, if you have on the PCB.
3. Side, Machine : that's self evident. Note that one type of the machine is BOM. It allows you to edit values of the parts... but more on this later.
4. Nozzle.  When you export the date for QIHE, this field specifies the nozzle setup that you prefer. If you don't like any of the nozzle setups, you can add more in the StaticConfigData file.
5. Fiducials. It will find your fiducials, if their name or their package's name starts with "FID". Normally if it found the pair it will be a good pair, even if you have more than two. They will be a pair of the most distant fiducials, and the first will always be to left of the second. "Show fiducials" does not do anything for now. Configure Fiducials (...) also does not work, I think.
Angle. Allows you to rotate the board in the machine. Angle is measured counterclockwise.
6. When you load the file, it will automatically assign the nozzle to the part. First, it scan the StaticConfigData for any packages that match. Then it will scan the part library. If still no hit, it will use part dimensions to select the proper nozzle. It tend to pick larger than necessary, so pay attention.
7. Once loaded, you can edit the height, speed, and all other parameteres relevant to the placement.
8. Save and load part library. Once you set the parameters as you like, you can save them all into part library, and it will hold all of the important info, such as orientation, height, etc.
9. Orientation. Properly setting orientation for QIHE is a PIA, so we tried to stream line it a bit. As you scroll up and down, on the right side the program will show the orientation of the package, how the program expects it to find in the feeder. If the part comes from a reel feeder, orientation of the part in the FRONT feeder should match the one in the application. Even if the part is installed in rear feeder. If the part is taken from tray feeder, it needs to be in the same orientation as seen from the front of the machine. Use the arrow buttons to rotate the package.

10. Feeder column. Allows you to specify the source of the part. Initially all feeders start off as "unassigned". You can select from a drop down menu, or you can type the feeder name. Once you assigned the nozzle that field turns green for the part. It provides easy way to verify that all parts are explicitly assigned. If the feeder is correct, but does not show in green, you can use drop down menu or Ctrl-A to change it to "assigned". It won't allow you put two parts onto one feeder. If you assign already in use feeder to some part, it will move that other part to another free feeder.

11. Nozzle column. If you don't want to place certian part, you can select "manual". That part will not be exported to QIHE app.

12. "Show Unique" leaves only one part instance per unique part on the board.
13. "Display" if you have the board opened in Eagle, it will highlight the part(s) in the board or schematic as you select them in the list.

Well that's the key functions that should let you get started.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 05:21:25 pm by ar__systems »
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #540 on: March 17, 2018, 05:06:17 pm »
Every time you click "export TVM" it will create a corresponding XML file. So if you started a job configuration, but can't complete it, you can export current state. Next time you open the same board it will read everything that you configured so far from the matching XML file.
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #541 on: April 06, 2018, 12:39:19 pm »
QIHE updated nozzle holder on the TVM920. The got rid of the magnet, got rid of the o-ring, and added metal balls to hold the nozzle in place. Definite improvement over previous design. Nozzle sits very firmly now, but it is easier to insert and easier to take out.

I damaged a shaft on one of the A motors on my machine, so I ordered a couple for replacement. Now I regret I did not order 4 :)
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #542 on: April 16, 2018, 10:00:06 pm »
I got a new s/w for TVM920. it has new parameters in the feeders config window: Factor and Check. Has anyone figured out their meaning?

thanks!
 

Offline RobK_NL

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #543 on: April 20, 2018, 09:52:07 am »
I got a new s/w for TVM920.
OK, I just got to know: How do you do this? QIHE does not send me any updates or whatever, so do you bug them on a regular basis or what?
Tell us what problem you want to solve, not what solution you're having problems with
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #544 on: April 20, 2018, 11:21:56 am »
Well not regularly, but I was getting some spare parts and asked a new s/w as well. They send it to me via skype
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #545 on: April 22, 2018, 04:15:59 pm »
It does seem that they are selling TVM925 now and it does look like they are phasing out the TVM920?
It runs on Windows from the photos.

Offline TIOUK

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #546 on: April 23, 2018, 04:48:41 pm »
Windows updates, just what a PNP needs. No doubt it will shut down and restart (if you're lucky) just when you wanted to start a production run.
The TVM920 was in our top 3 list, but will not be replaced with the 925.
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #547 on: April 23, 2018, 05:53:19 pm »
Windows updates, just what a PNP needs. No doubt it will shut down and restart (if you're lucky) just when you wanted to start a production run.
The TVM920 was in our top 3 list, but will not be replaced with the 925.

This does not make sense. TVM920 also requires windows PC. If you worry about updates, take it off the internet.
 

Offline ALEXRA

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #548 on: April 28, 2018, 02:40:42 am »

TVM925 running looks faster than tvm920 . Seems 4 CCD cameras right ? :o
A clever design with windows system PC inside machine .

I watched a video from Qihe website
http://www.qhsmt.com/shibinzhongxin/newqihetvm925ppmachine.html
 

Offline ALEXRA

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Re: Pick & Place MachineTVM920
« Reply #549 on: April 28, 2018, 02:57:43 am »
Hey guys

Anybody who konws about or purchased a TVM925 ?
How is the design and practicality compares with the old model TVM920?
Very interested in this machine
Any experience  will be helpful  ^-^
 


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