Author Topic: Professional assembly mishaps  (Read 27435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Professional assembly mishaps
« on: October 13, 2017, 08:15:19 pm »
Just a few of those sweet little things UK assembly houses did to me over the years... 

I had hundreds and hundreds of rejects.  And then there are stories... Quite a few of stories.

These are all from ISO9000 certified UK companies.

Leo
 
The following users thanked this post: mcinque, asmi, bd139, I wanted a rude username

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 03:55:28 am »
That first one!!!  :wtf:
 

Offline dave_k

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 05:05:21 am »
These are all from ISO9000 certified UK companies.

That merely assures the quality of the mishap...
 
The following users thanked this post: Ribster, rs20, Tom45, Kilrah, Connoiseur, SVFeingold

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 09:07:52 am »
These are all from ISO9000 certified UK companies.

That merely assures the quality of the mishap...
:o :-DD

Seriously though, they qualify for the  :wtf:  award IMHO.  :palm:
 

Offline Mattylad

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 143
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 10:20:47 am »
The first one, could this redefining what is called "flip chip" ? lol

All signs of very poor assembly and testing control.
Matty
CID+
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16272
  • Country: za
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 10:31:48 am »
ISO9000 just means all will have the same defect, not that all will be perfect. Looks like they were literally using a chip shooter in there for some.
 

Offline Yellofriend

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: hk
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2017, 04:11:06 am »
These are all from ISO9000 certified UK companies.

ISO900* just means they have a quality procedure. You can send them the pix and ask them to follow up with a 8D report.

Looking at the images, the only one I would worry about is the last one, because it could be a serial error.
--------------
TVM802C - now with OpenPnP
T962A
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 09:14:57 am »
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 12:34:29 pm »
Today's scoop.
 

Offline dmills

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2093
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 01:49:20 pm »
That shit happens,
I have had completely wrong values (Apparently the reel was mislabelled!).
Wrong way around, especially good fun with tants....
1mm pitch FPGAs where the tray had been fumbled and they were randomly twisted on the paste, oh how we laughed.

Completely upside down is a new one on me however, how the hell??! 

Then we come to the fun that sometimes follows when the assembly house decides to monkey with the paste mask before getting the stencils made (And without asking first), very annoying.

Assembly houses are pretty much a case of 'who has pissed you off least recently'. They all allege to do AOI, I think the AOI machine is sometimes the intern.

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline fcb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2117
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 01:52:41 pm »
So no AOI?

Even my non-ISO9001 (or anything) local CEM has AOI - it's not perfect (current favourite is it won't pick up SOT223's with a leg bent upwards) but close to it.

Great to see someone else using TagConnect also.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline dmills

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2093
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 03:05:14 pm »
Oh everyone has AOI, it just seems to be a real fiddle to get it to reliably pick up some things.

Regards, Dan.

 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 03:11:13 pm »
We had panels with scorched AOI stickers on them.  I guess it tells you something.
Leo
 

Offline xani

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 400
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 03:37:35 pm »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 03:46:27 pm »
I've seen upside down SOICs - even had it with my own machine.
Probably a mis-pick or slipping on the nozzle, dropping & bouncing.
Or just from a tube, starting teh wrong way up.
Also not impossible that it was taped upside down.
 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline fcb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2117
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 05:14:08 pm »
We had panels with scorched AOI stickers on them.  I guess it tells you something.
Leo

Implying they did the AOI BEFORE reflow??
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 05:30:07 pm »
ISO9000 just means all will have the same defect, not that all will be perfect. Looks like they were literally using a chip shooter in there for some.
"Before implementing ISO9000, we occasionally made crappy products. After ISO9000, we consistently make crappy products!"
 
The following users thanked this post: Kilrah

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 06:04:41 pm »
One of the assembly houses also kitted some boards for us.

The first batch had 175V MMBD1404A diodes replaced with 30V BAT54C diodes. 
Of course, all of them promptly and consistently blew up after application of 50V bus.

Second batch had fake TDK components  from Alibaba (the only place in the whole world I could find the fakes on) that fell off the board because tin plating was shit. Assembler assured me that all the components are genuine and have traceability certificate.  I got very excited and asked for a copy.  I got it (below.)

I rang TDK, they just yawned and fell asleep, didn't even want to see the samples.

I got a copy of the assembler ISO9001 certificate and rang the guy at BSI who signed it.  He was the most "bored at work" guy in the world.  Complete lack of any interested, wasn't even sure if there is a process of revoking ISO9000 certification.

In the end I have given up on trying to make them lose certification and moved on from them, nobody is taking ISO9000 seriously anyway.
From recent conversations with friends who are still using this particular UK company - the show still carries on.

We now went through 8 assembly companies and there are only two who did not screw us up [yet.]

You'd think I made it all up.  I wish I did.

Leo
 

Offline Yellofriend

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: hk
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2017, 02:20:17 am »
Second batch had fake TDK components  from ....

A very good way to test for fake ICs is X-ray. Many assembly factories have one for BGA use.

Typically the leadframe for one IC never changes, fakes usually do not use the same leadframe. Dice size will be different too. That's how I identified a fake Maxim CAN bus IC.

To ask a factory to buy parts for you is always extreme high risk. Buy everything yourself from Mouser etc., that is the safest way.
--------------
TVM802C - now with OpenPnP
T962A
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21606
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 03:29:42 am »
To ask a factory to buy parts for you is always extreme high risk. Buy everything yourself from Mouser etc., that is the safest way.

Depends on who you're asking.  I regularly do design with a local company; they are, in turn, part of a global CM.  They have good procedures in place.  For example, for a proto run, they only buy exactly what you specify (mfg+pn, if not supplier too).  I have seen mistakes in protos, but they're more easily attributed to lazy employees than bad procedures or management I think.  The managers are always interested to know about mistakes.

I've seen a couple of the failures shown above.  Never seen a flipped chip.  Have seen poor soldering, or missing paste.  Usually they spot these and do rework.  Most of the faults I've seen are either my fault (a poor footprint, in turn because the drawing is poor or I missed something), or avoidable with my help (e.g., ensuring adequate soldermask web width between pads, to prevent shorts on paste and wave steps -- closely spaced, untented vias is one I didn't expect to see, but it seems to happen regularly on lead-free wave).

I've also seen variable results, like the mfg cell nearby usually does nice work, while the one in the next state sometimes makes errors.  So there's probably some variation in local culture, as well as employee performance.  Which is probably about as good as you can expect.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2017, 07:58:44 am »
Duh, speak of the old devil Murphy.  Got this from a customer just this morning. No idea how we got this through but of course we are rushing a replacement.  Luckily this happened once for 70k+ devices.

It is impossible to do extensive functional test on each and every board, essentially double-checking what assembly house should have done. If it's assembled properly it will work fine. This is why having a trustworthy assembly partner is critical for us.

Leo
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2017, 08:11:58 am »
Duh, speak of the old devil Murphy.  Got this from a customer just this morning. No idea how we got this through but of course we are rushing a replacement.  Luckily this happened once for 70k+ devices.

It is impossible to do extensive functional test on each and every board, essentially double-checking what assembly house should have done. If it's assembled properly it will work fine. This is why having a trustworthy assembly partner is critical for us.

Leo
You can see how that might pass AOI but definitely a test-coverage issue if it gets out the door
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2017, 08:17:52 am »
You can see how that might pass AOI but definitely a test-coverage issue if it gets out the door
People who assembled this showed me how their AOI system works.  It did stop and alerted operator if it could not correlate package markings with the reference.
I assume that either operator just cancelled and let it through or AOI was simply not done.
Leo
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Kean

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2017, 08:20:47 am »
To ask a factory to buy parts for you is always extreme high risk. Buy everything yourself from Mouser etc., that is the safest way.
You'd think that  a CEM is in a good position to provide value by combining orders, getting qty discounts etc. but IME it doesn't tend to work out in practice, at least for the low volumes I typically do.
They  basically pass on their cost plus what they charge for procurement, and have little incentive to find better prices as you're probably already committed to them. They also like to combine all costs so it's hard for you to tell what part of the cost is parts, assembly and setup.
Same situation for things like stencils - they just buy teh same large stencils form the place they've used for years and pass on the cost, despite the the fact that you can get them for a fraction of the cost from China, or for a small run, tape up a much smaller stencil into their frame.
 
I've yet to meet a CEM that shows any passion or enthusiasm for what they do, or any significant amount of imagination.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 08:27:45 am »
We had panels with scorched AOI stickers on them.  I guess it tells you something.
Leo

Implying they did the AOI BEFORE reflow??

Or that they reworked it
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7307
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2017, 08:35:02 am »
This things happen. The important is to have IPC-610 at hand to send back feedback, or pas this info for purchasing, so they can haggle.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2017, 08:35:09 am »
We had panels with scorched AOI stickers on them.  I guess it tells you something.
Leo

Implying they did the AOI BEFORE reflow??

Or that they reworked it
If it was a mixed TH/SMD board it would be reasonable to AOI before flowsoldering the TH parts
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline mc172

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 487
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2017, 09:49:53 am »
I've yet to meet a CEM that shows any passion or enthusiasm for what they do, or any significant amount of imagination.

Exactly. Those that I've come across have just ended up in that field and hopelessly bumble around, somehow delivering product. A few I've come across have grand ideas about designing their own product but really have no idea about the work involved.

These places also tend to be "run" by a lot of managers and the like, whereas there are really only one or two really good people ensuring that the place runs.

Liaising with them is hard work as the people you're put into contact with don't have a clue.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2017, 10:08:56 am »
I've yet to meet a CEM that shows any passion or enthusiasm for what they do, or any significant amount of imagination.

Exactly. Those that I've come across have just ended up in that field and hopelessly bumble around, somehow delivering product. A few I've come across have grand ideas about designing their own product but really have no idea about the work involved.


Liaising with them is hard work as the people you're put into contact with don't have a clue.
Lack of communication about their process is also a big issue - I think they regard it as a trade secret.
For example I always include fids in my pick/place data but I know at least one -place was still programming them manually from a sample board.
Quote
These places also tend to be "run" by a lot of managers and the like, whereas there are really only one or two really good people ensuring that the place runs.
And the only people/person who knows anything about electronics are in the test dept.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2017, 11:57:21 am »
One more from today. 
This is from the company that was (and still is) my favourite.  Not because it's the best but because the others are worse.
Leo
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2017, 12:09:28 pm »
Ugh been wanting to get this off my chest for years ... seems like the right place!

I fell out of university into a dying industry in the UK so I did some time on a soldering line. I think I lasted a week before I was promoted to rework only because I wasn't a dumbass and the rework guys lasted about a month before they had a mental breakdown.

This was mid-1990s and they did everything in house because it was defence sector. The whole line was producing stacks of legacy TH replacement boards that were designed in the 1970's for a refurbishment programme. The people on the line had been there doing that line for 15+ years. All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

And you know what? Someone in inventory accidentally swapped a bin full of diodes and resistors around due to a "heavy pub lunch". They stuffed and soldered 80 boards before the QA guys noticed. They put the resistors in the diode holes and the diodes in the resistor holes. Orientation of diodes? Who cares, just stuff them in. What could possibly go wrong. Part 1 comes from bin 1 and goes in that hole. Part 2 comes from bin 2 and goes in that hole. Turns out that if you put them in the bin the wrong way round, all the diodes would have been soldered in the wrong way around. Silk screen? Nah that's for the design engineers to worry about.

So my job was to rework the fuck ups for about a month when they had come back from QA. One day I just flipped my shit like happy noodle boy [1]. Then I, as many before me had done, got reassigned to a different department which was just as bad.

GRADE F TO GRADE E STAFF PROMOTION ACHIEVED!

[1]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 12:11:17 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2017, 12:21:38 pm »
Lack of communication about their process is also a big issue - I think they regard it as a trade secret.
^ This!

Quote
For example I always include fids in my pick/place data but I know at least one -place was still programming them manually from a sample board.
I actually had one assembler specifically tell me not to bother providing the Pick and Place files (for about 10 designs being run at once, all in qty of about 50-100).  Surprisingly these guys did one of the best jobs of all the companies I've dealt with.  They've since closed down though :(
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2902
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2017, 12:23:41 pm »
The moral of the story is the Human Element is where the highest quality standards must exist in the overall system.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2902
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2017, 12:29:59 pm »
Ugh been wanting to get this off my chest for years ... seems like the right place!

I fell out of university into a dying industry in the UK so I did some time on a soldering line. I think I lasted a week before I was promoted to rework only because I wasn't a dumbass and the rework guys lasted about a month before they had a mental breakdown.

This was mid-1990s and they did everything in house because it was defence sector. The whole line was producing stacks of legacy TH replacement boards that were designed in the 1970's for a refurbishment programme. The people on the line had been there doing that line for 15+ years. All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

And you know what? Someone in inventory accidentally swapped a bin full of diodes and resistors around due to a "heavy pub lunch". They stuffed and soldered 80 boards before the QA guys noticed. They put the resistors in the diode holes and the diodes in the resistor holes. Orientation of diodes? Who cares, just stuff them in. What could possibly go wrong. Part 1 comes from bin 1 and goes in that hole. Part 2 comes from bin 2 and goes in that hole. Turns out that if you put them in the bin the wrong way round, all the diodes would have been soldered in the wrong way around. Silk screen? Nah that's for the design engineers to worry about.

So my job was to rework the fuck ups for about a month when they had come back from QA. One day I just flipped my shit like happy noodle boy [1]. Then I, as many before me had done, got reassigned to a different department which was just as bad.

GRADE F TO GRADE E STAFF PROMOTION ACHIEVED!

[1]
Wow, just WoW!
Sue AF6LJ
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7307
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2017, 12:49:13 pm »
Turns out that if you put them in the bin the wrong way round, all the diodes would have been soldered in the wrong way around. Silk screen? Nah that's for the design engineers to worry about.
I've worked in a PCBA factory for internship, back in the day. It was Japanese run.It was run by the Japanese. (this is more english, right?) They had rigorous QC requirements for component orientation. And leaflets, telling the workers:
1) If a cap is placed backwards, it blows up.
2) If it blows up only later, we need to recall the boards
3) If we need to recall, we loose a bunch of money, and we have to close down
4) And YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOB, and everyone working with you will loose your job

Engineers were sometimes running around with stopwatches, measuring how much time each assembly steps took. Not to grade workers but to optimize the assembly process for higher throughput. Didn't matter, it still scared them. Workers were told, that if we "have to let them go", there is a dozen other to take their places. It was actually true.
"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station."
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:17:08 pm by NANDBlog »
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, Kean

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2017, 12:56:54 pm »
If only that place was Japanese run. I'd have loved that. That's how I run my software team.

That lot on that line ended up working in McDonalds when Six Sigma came in. Mainly because they had to fire them to pay for the consultants. You couldn't hire anyone now to do that in that locality.
 

Offline Gribo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 629
  • Country: ca
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2017, 01:20:21 pm »
Dead bugs happen, especially on low pin count SOIC. Good (semi-competent) manufacturers usually catch those errors in production, mainly because the cost of repair rises logarithmically with each step of the process.
I am available for freelance work.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2017, 01:42:10 pm »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

Was this M_____ in West London? Sounds like them.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Yellofriend

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: hk
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2017, 01:49:54 pm »
To ask a factory to buy parts for you is always extreme high risk. Buy everything yourself from Mouser etc., that is the safest way.

Depends on who you're asking.

Sure! If you work with me I only buy from Digikey etc. I do lots of assembly in China. Would I let the factory buy parts - no way!

BTW, for the testing, the bad thing was that the fake ICs had full function, we we tested them 'good'. The client made an extended function test -20°C to +70°C for 24 hours - that's where 90% failed.
--------------
TVM802C - now with OpenPnP
T962A
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2017, 01:54:44 pm »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

Was this M_____ in West London? Sounds like them.

No not them actually. I don't wish to name the company in question as they are still active and all hail corporate now. But they're Essex side of London in the badlands.
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2017, 02:31:59 pm »
Dead bugs happen, especially on low pin count SOIC. Good (semi-competent) manufacturers usually catch those errors in production, mainly because the cost of repair rises logarithmically with each step of the process.
Surely you meant to say exponentially?
Leo
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1084
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2017, 02:32:22 pm »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

Was this M_____ in West London? Sounds like them.

No not them actually. I don't wish to name the company in question as they are still active and all hail corporate now. But they're Essex side of London in the badlands.

Does the name start with a "T"?  ;D
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2017, 02:58:01 pm »
Nope :)
 

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2416
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2017, 03:05:13 pm »
What keeps upside down packages from falling off the board? Is there an adhesive?
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2017, 03:51:32 pm »
What keeps upside down packages from falling off the board? Is there an adhesive?
Flux seeps underneath and solidifies after cooling down.
Leo
 
The following users thanked this post: Nusa

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2017, 04:44:20 pm »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

Was this M_____ in West London? Sounds like them.

No not them actually. I don't wish to name the company in question as they are still active and all hail corporate now. But they're Essex side of London in the badlands.

Does the name start with a "T"?  ;D
"D" ?
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Gribo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 629
  • Country: ca
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2017, 06:53:16 pm »
Yes, I did. Meh. It always gets more expansive, faster than you can blink.
I am available for freelance work.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2017, 08:15:26 pm »
Well, classic tombstone.  Not real common with modern processes, but it can happen.  It might actually be an undetected mis-pick on the P&P machine.  If the part drags on the side of the component tape, it can tumble into this position and show enough vacuum that the machine doesn't reject it.

Jon
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2017, 08:41:39 pm »
Well, classic tombstone.  Not real common with modern processes, but it can happen.  It might actually be an undetected mis-pick on the P&P machine.  If the part drags on the side of the component tape, it can tumble into this position and show enough vacuum that the machine doesn't reject it.

Jon
It is not tombstoning at all. Component was placed between 2 pads vertically and produced dead short after reflowing. Tombstoning is when part is soldered on one side and lifted on another.
 

Offline M4trix

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 307
  • Country: hr
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2017, 09:44:12 pm »
One more from today. 
This is from the company that was (and still is) my favourite.  Not because it's the best but because the others are worse.
Leo



Hmm, that's actually a brilliant solution when you don't have jumpers, zero ohm resistors ! Just flip the cap vertically !  :-DD
 
The following users thanked this post: Kilrah, asmi, bd139, I wanted a rude username

Offline Yellofriend

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: hk
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2017, 02:59:56 am »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

That's what we did when I worked in an assembly factory in China a long while ago. All manual, each person maybe 3-5 parts. Only difference, our ladies were young. Zero problems with missing parts or polarity. The method can work, but nowadays too expensive I guess.
--------------
TVM802C - now with OpenPnP
T962A
 

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2017, 08:35:07 am »
All manual insertion and manual soldering. All old ladies chatting as they were working.

That's what we did when I worked in an assembly factory in China a long while ago. All manual, each person maybe 3-5 parts. Only difference, our ladies were young. Zero problems with missing parts or polarity. The method can work, but nowadays too expensive I guess.

Agree, the salary in China doubled, or even Tripled in the past 10 years.  manually soldering is expensive and only suitable for the prototyping 1~5 pcs production.
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2017, 11:48:03 am »
I'd add rework or repair of high-value products.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3063
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2017, 03:15:58 pm »
Partially my own fault but:

I once made a small mod to a design while on holliday in France. Send out Gerbers without checking (only a small change, just this once it will be fine!). The outjob was bad and two layer were 'blank'. The assembly house produced it and everything was shorted together as every via would be connected to two solid sheets of copper on the mid layers.

Still can't believe nobody at either the assembly house or board house caught it.

Offline JuKu

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 566
  • Country: fi
    • LitePlacer - The Low Cost DIY Pick and Place Machine
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2017, 02:45:13 pm »
My favorite assembly mishap:
http://www.liteplacer.com - The Low Cost DIY Pick and Place Machine
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline capt bullshot

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3033
  • Country: de
    • Mostly useless stuff, but nice to have: wunderkis.de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2017, 10:57:02 am »
Some time ago, I had this one



Inappropriate manual handling of the boards after reflow
Safety devices hinder evolution
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2017, 08:22:26 am »
Few more from today.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2017, 08:29:29 am »
That first one looks like someone got fed up with it and threw some parts in the general direction of the board.
 

Offline l0wside

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2017, 01:45:01 pm »
No pictures, but still my very first assembly run (mid-size PCBA company in southern Germany) cost me a bunch of nerves:
  • I had sent them an extra picture of the board, showing polarity or pin 1 for each component. Result: out of 100 parts, 100 had the electrolytic caps the wrong way round. They fixed it manually at their cost, but I still lost at least two weeks.
  • The design has a tactile switch. Roughly half of the switches did not work. Turns out they washed the PCBs after assembly (which is not uncommon). Washed-out flux got into the switches and blocked them mechanically. The datasheet states clearly "Washing: Not possible". They fixed it manually at their cost...
  • From previous tasks, I am used to using no-clean flux. I have a sensor on the board which has a protective cap...that was washed off in the process.  Some covers were still on, some dangling around, most had been washed off. QC seems not to have cared. To be honest, it was at least partly my fault - I had simply not considered washing.
 

Offline fcb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2117
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2017, 03:54:29 pm »
They can't possibly have gone through AOI or any form of inspection.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2017, 04:52:41 pm »
No pictures, but still my very first assembly run (mid-size PCBA company in southern Germany) cost me a bunch of nerves:
  • I had sent them an extra picture of the board, showing polarity or pin 1 for each component. Result: out of 100 parts, 100 had the electrolytic caps the wrong way round. They fixed it manually at their cost, but I still lost at least two weeks.
It would be more disturbing if only 63 (or 17 or whatever) were the wrong way 'round!
 

Offline asmi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 05:10:22 pm »
My own oopsie that happened this weekend  ::)
Decided not to fix as it's a 0201 cap which is too close to the DDR3L IC so that I couldn't get in there with an iron without risking damaging the IC. The module works at full speed just fine even without one cap :phew:

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2017, 08:52:10 am »
My own oopsie that happened this weekend  ::)
Decided not to fix as it's a 0201 cap which is too close to the DDR3L IC so that I couldn't get in there with an iron without risking damaging the IC. The module works at full speed just fine even without one cap :phew:
0201 is indeed risky for some soldering factories, avoid to use 0201 package unless you are design PC/phone....
 

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2017, 09:09:46 am »
No pictures, but still my very first assembly run (mid-size PCBA company in southern Germany) cost me a bunch of nerves:
  • I had sent them an extra picture of the board, showing polarity or pin 1 for each component. Result: out of 100 parts, 100 had the electrolytic caps the wrong way round. They fixed it manually at their cost, but I still lost at least two weeks.

this kind of problem occurs some times, when i make the PCBA, my vendor makerfabs will make a sample and take detailded picture for me for checking. although very rare i found mistakes,  it make me ease...

  • The design has a tactile switch. Roughly half of the switches did not work. Turns out they washed the PCBs after assembly (which is not uncommon). Washed-out flux got into the switches and blocked them mechanically. The datasheet states clearly "Washing: Not possible". They fixed it manually at their cost...
it needs experience for the vendor,almost impossible for the soldering man to check the datasheet, but it is really very basic knowledge that most of switches can not be washed by flux

  • From previous tasks, I am used to using no-clean flux. I have a sensor on the board which has a protective cap...that was washed off in the process.  Some covers were still on, some dangling around, most had been washed off. QC seems not to have cared. To be honest, it was at least partly my fault - I had simply not considered washing.
most of factory use the soldering that need to be washed after the soldering, or the PCBA would be looks urgly- as they may think so normally they will wash after the THT soldering.  most sensor for the Environment can not be washed ... that you should remind them, unless your soldering vendor themselves is electronic engineers and know the notes. i suggest you my long-term PCBA vendor Makerfabs, really help me a lot in the DFM and solves my problems in their side. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 09:11:17 am by zeqing »
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2017, 04:55:23 pm »
@zeqing Almost every other post of yours you mention the name of your "vendor".  Please stop with the shilling!
 
The following users thanked this post: wraper

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2017, 01:57:23 am »
@kean  here's not your personal back garden and stop shouting to others with your uncivilized manner.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2017, 02:25:52 am »
@kean  here's not your personal back garden and stop shouting to others with your uncivilized manner.
No, it's you who treats this forum as a personal spam garden. Frankly, after reading your posts, I have strong suspicion that you could be makerfabs marketing shill and should be banned if that turns out to be true.
Edit: Actually you are a shill and admitted it in one of your posts and just got reported.
nice to meet you here,   how is the project krunch king now? :)

I stopped selling them, putting it through a redesign after all the hardware issues I had. Where do I know you from?  8)

i run a PCB assembly studio in shenzhen called makerfabs with some friends, and once i quoted for you.... your name really special that i still remember you after 3 years... :-DD
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 02:41:35 am by wraper »
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2017, 02:50:46 am »
yes, i have been there for half an year and still now we have had good cooperation on my PCBA and good relationship personally, and i try to help them but without bribery. i do not think the word "shill " impartial for me. strong attitude not works but report me as spam, unless your words nonsense.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2017, 02:54:14 am »
yes, i have been there for half an year and still now we have had good cooperation on my PCBA and good relationship personally, and i try to help them but without bribery. i do not think the word "shill " impartial for me. strong attitude not works but report me as spam, unless your words nonsense.
Keep lying. Look your quote in my previous post from which is obvious you worked there at for at least last 3 years. You are shill because you said you were ordering from them while actually are working there.
 

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2017, 03:06:17 am »
you confused and Biased. as i know, the makerfabs only created for about 1 year ago(check their site with alexa!), how could i work there 3 years ago..
"your name really special that i still remember you after 3 years... :-DD"
that is to say many years ago when i was in another company .  do you want me open my resume for you?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 03:10:41 am by zeqing »
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2017, 03:11:37 am »
you confused. as i know, the makerfabs only created for about 1 year ago(check their site with alexa!), how could i work there 3 years ago..
"your name really special that i still remember you after 3 years... :-DD"
that is to say many years ago when i was in another company .
Quote
i run a PCB assembly studio in shenzhen called makerfabs with some friends
And I also should believe you are from Germany  :clap:. It could be different Chinese company back then, but it doesn't matter. The fact is you claimed yourself in that post you are running this business. While in the rest of your posts you claimed you buy things at makerfabs.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 03:16:00 am by wraper »
 

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2017, 03:17:36 am »
maybe you should firstly answer my questions. have you checked the site registration date, as  you believe i have been there for 3 years. 
i have answer your questions with "left".
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 03:19:15 am by zeqing »
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2017, 03:21:10 am »
maybe you should firstly answer my questions. have you checked the site registration date, as  you believe i have been there for 3 years. 
i have answer your questions with "left".
I checked, 2016. But it does not change the fact you wrote yourself that you are running makerfabs.
 

Offline zeqing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2017, 03:24:37 am »
maybe you should firstly answer my questions. have you checked the site registration date, as  you believe i have been there for 3 years. 
i have answer your questions with "left".
I checked, 2016. But it does not change the fact you wrote yourself that you are running makerfabs.

OK, so you have admired your mistakes? how would i explain the "left"? :-// please check my above posts.

this is "Manufacturing & Assembly" and the post  for "assembly mishaps", i think this is a good place to share my  experience, and caught as a "shill" |O
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 03:31:30 am by zeqing »
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2017, 06:47:43 am »
@kean  here's not your personal back garden and stop shouting to others with your uncivilized manner.

Hahaha!  That's hilarious!  I didn't shout nor was I uncivilised.

You have now been reported to the moderators.  I hadn't done that before, I just stated facts and asked you to stop misrepresenting your "vendor".
 

Offline gnif

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1672
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2017, 06:49:35 am »
maybe you should firstly answer my questions. have you checked the site registration date, as  you believe i have been there for 3 years. 
i have answer your questions with "left".

I suggest you stop here, I have had a look at your post history and issued you a warning. Your activity is very suspicious. Any further plugs for Makerfabs will incur a ban on your account.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2017, 06:58:50 am »
Shill confirmed:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/which-stores-do-you-guys-usually-purchase-from/msg1284806/#msg1284806

Quote
depends on what do you want to buy
1. for components IC: digikey/mouser;
2. for components common used such as LED: aliexpress/ebay/amazon
3. for instruments: alibaba;
4. for hardware modules: sparkfun/seeed

personally in the past half a year i orders some simple modules such as OLED/power supply from a store makerfabs DOT com, really good experence, their products has much higher quality than other China sellers that on aliexpress/ebay, and feedback me quickly when any problems encountered.

among many other posts about makerfab.
He's now banned. We get countless PCB house shill accounts and spam on the forum, it's almost plague proportions.
 
The following users thanked this post: janoc, wraper, Kean

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2017, 07:11:04 am »
this is "Manufacturing & Assembly" and the post  for "assembly mishaps", i think this is a good place to share my  experience, and caught as a "shill" |O

Yes, and some of your posts had some good info - but you continually went on about your "vendor".
I would not have cared one bit if you mentioned makerfab in every post if properly disclosed (others might have...).

I didn't specifically want you banned, you brought that upon yourself.
 

Offline gnif

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1672
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2017, 07:11:54 am »
Shill confirmed:

Good call, I didn't have time to read through his posts in detail, was just going to watch his reaction and see.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2017, 11:35:57 am »
this is "Manufacturing & Assembly" and the post  for "assembly mishaps", i think this is a good place to share my  experience, and caught as a "shill" |O

Yes, and some of your posts had some good info - but you continually went on about your "vendor".
I would not have cared one bit if you mentioned makerfab in every post if properly disclosed (others might have...).

I didn't specifically want you banned, you brought that upon yourself.
I wouldn't mind this myself. Actually I would not mind if he admitted he's from makerfabs and stopped pretending to be their customer. What pissed me the most is attitude when presented with evidence.
 

Offline olkipukki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 790
  • Country: 00
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2017, 12:05:14 pm »
Not sure if anybody will bother to reply here after above "mishaps", but I will try  :-//

My questions are really simple:

Who is paying bills for these mishaps and what usually assembler contract says about that?
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2017, 12:19:34 pm »
Yes, sorry for the diversion.  I was finding this topic really interesting.

I'd guess the cost of these mistakes will depend on the contract with the assembler.  But I guess even if you're not paying for fully tested PCBA, they still have to rectify/rework these kinds of glaring errors.
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2017, 12:24:50 pm »
Here is a couple of contributions...
1. A capacitor that was poorly placed, but strangely didn't tombstone
2. A connector that must have been hand placed, as it was the wrong pin count and horizontal instead of vertical.  I think they picked up a spare connector from the PnP reject box, but didn't verify it was the right one
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2017, 02:09:51 pm »
Here is a couple of contributions...
1. A capacitor that was poorly placed, but strangely didn't tombstone
Actually most likely it was placed completely fine. SMT pad layout with a huge gap between pads is just asking for such trouble to happen during reflow. Doing so is certainly against recommended pad layouts.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 02:15:10 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #84 on: December 16, 2017, 02:47:51 pm »
Yes, you could be partly right there.  In this case I didn't design the board nor the footprints.  I just took the project over, made some minor changes on various boards, and had a couple of batches made up for the client.  I've since designed a lot of new add-on boards for the client with my own footprints... and written a lot of new firmware & apps for them.  That said, that particular 0805 footprint has been used on a bunch of designs without further issues.  I believe the footprint may also in use at a large UAV company (unrelated to my clients products).
 

Offline hermit

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 482
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #85 on: December 16, 2017, 03:57:57 pm »
Had an easy one on the Kicad forum I reported.  He used his real name and he was listed on their marketing page.  Some are just too easy.  As someone else mentioned, if they were contributing AND transparent I wouldn't have a problem with them if their shilling was at least helpful to the current situation.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #86 on: December 16, 2017, 05:10:46 pm »
I love the upside down IC.

I worked for a ISO9000 certified company for a few years. It was mostly BS, we had a bunch of processes to follow and had to read all these process control documents and sign off that we had read them. There was no assurance at all that the process was good or made any sense, just that it was documented and followed. I had to read and sign off on a bunch of process documents that had no relation whatsoever to the job I performed. One I recall involved dealing with politicians and foreign diplomats and what actions could constitute bribery. As if any of the engineers were ever in a position to negotiate with foreign diplomats and politicians.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16272
  • Country: za
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2017, 10:08:06 am »
I would say the capacitor was placed poorly, with most of it being on the one pad, if placed slightly left on the paste it would have soldered fine.

The connector I can believe, as likely they used only the central pins from the battery, ignoring the rest, so having no pads on the one would not be an issue as it likely was an unused internal cell temperature sensor.
 

Offline plazma

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 472
  • Country: fi
    • Homepage
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2017, 10:17:18 am »
Many PCBA factories don't use AOI for small volumes. It requires a lot of work to program. Common faults may be programmed if there are more production runs.
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2053
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2017, 10:21:25 am »
The connector I can believe, as likely they used only the central pins from the battery, ignoring the rest, so having no pads on the one would not be an issue as it likely was an unused internal cell temperature sensor.

The board with the battery connector is for a submersible datalogger.  It should have a 6 pin vertical connector for the battery (including thermistor as you surmised).  The 7 pin right angle connector was used on a completely different set of boards (submersible sensors) produced at the same time.  I had to swap the connector to make it usable.  Thankfully one was like this in the batch.

Many PCBA factories don't use AOI for small volumes. It requires a lot of work to program. Common faults may be programmed if there are more production runs.

For sure!  But they always make a point of telling you they have the capability even if they don't plan to use it on your job.  ;D
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2017, 11:32:43 am »
I would say the capacitor was placed poorly, with most of it being on the one pad, if placed slightly left on the paste it would have soldered fine.
This is not how tombstoning works, it does not require inaccurate placement. In this case because pads are very large with a very high distance between them, it was pulled horizontally with a terminal to the center of the pad instead of just lifted vertically and hanging above the pad like here:
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2017, 12:08:00 pm »
I had one of those the other day on a cheap Chinese switcher module. It was on the input side of the unit so it still worked reasonably well, enough to pass QA  :palm:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2017, 12:12:52 pm »
I love the upside down IC.

I worked for a ISO9000 certified company for a few years. It was mostly BS, we had a bunch of processes to follow and had to read all these process control documents and sign off that we had read them. There was no assurance at all that the process was good or made any sense, just that it was documented and followed. I had to read and sign off on a bunch of process documents that had no relation whatsoever to the job I performed. One I recall involved dealing with politicians and foreign diplomats and what actions could constitute bribery. As if any of the engineers were ever in a position to negotiate with foreign diplomats and politicians.
ISO9000 is primarly about a quality control system being in place, not about actual quality being the result of it. That's the mistake many people make.
 
The following users thanked this post: julianhigginson

Offline julianhigginson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 783
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2017, 09:36:16 pm »
Who is paying bills for these mishaps and what usually assembler contract says about that?

Usually if you can prove CM fault with a local CM, they will make good at their own expense. This is less likely to happen with a cut-price overseas CM.

My most recent board run was a multi board (8 design) prototype job (X10) done with an overseas CM, selected for speed purposes more than anything else.  We paid for them to buy Digi-Key and mouser to my BOM, but when boards arrived, I had one case of a tantalum cap being the wrong voltage... And so obviously not what I listed in the BOM... So I pulled and replaced those parts myself... Noting that while the boards all basically work we have no guarantee on the correctness of any part on them... They worked fine as prototype, but that issue just killed them for any future production build of these PCBAs..
 

Offline HalFET

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 512
  • Country: 00
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #94 on: December 18, 2017, 08:08:56 am »
I would say the capacitor was placed poorly, with most of it being on the one pad, if placed slightly left on the paste it would have soldered fine.
This is not how tombstoning works, it does not require inaccurate placement. In this case because pads are very large with a very high distance between them, it was pulled horizontally with a terminal to the center of the pad instead of just lifted vertically and hanging above the pad like here:


The one in that image is rather nasty. That's one that AOI and even XRay might not pick up!
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #95 on: December 18, 2017, 01:04:14 pm »
I love the upside down IC.

I worked for a ISO9000 certified company for a few years. It was mostly BS, we had a bunch of processes to follow and had to read all these process control documents and sign off that we had read them. There was no assurance at all that the process was good or made any sense, just that it was documented and followed.

Yup, that's my experience too, we had BS5750 and later ISO accreditation, it's all about the documentation, if you state you take each board and pray over it while anointing it with the grated peel of 1000 lemons they will approve your process but woe betide you if you only grate the peel from 999 lemons and someone spots your non compliance.

 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2017, 01:30:08 pm »
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2017, 02:28:52 pm »

It might be shit, but at least you know you're getting shit every time!
 

Offline HalFET

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 512
  • Country: 00
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2017, 10:40:39 pm »

It might be shit, but at least you know you're getting shit every time!

Quality!!!
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2902
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2017, 06:34:01 pm »

It might be shit, but at least you know you're getting shit every time!
Having the flow of reliable shit has nothing to do with quality, that shit is needed to keep our profit margins high.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2017, 06:44:19 pm »
That Dilbert cartoon is hilarious, that mirrors my experience almost exactly.
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2017, 10:24:00 am »
Few more bingos from Birmingham.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2017, 11:30:53 am »
Few more bingos from Birmingham.
I wonder how did they get it. They would need to either put those through reflow process with connectors inserted or stop within wave soldering machine for prolonged time. Solder joints on connector pins don't look nice as well, look like blobs of solder.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2017, 12:07:16 pm »
These are all from ISO9000 certified UK companies.
All that says is they should be offering the same defect rate consistently to all their customers.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2017, 01:52:42 pm »
Few more bingos from Birmingham.
Aren't those just the wrong USB connectors? Maybe these simply weren't connectors intended for reflow. The pin headers look fine.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2017, 01:58:24 pm »
Few more bingos from Birmingham.
Aren't those just the wrong USB connectors? Maybe these simply weren't connectors intended for reflow. The pin headers look fine.
Why would they need to be intended for reflow?
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3452
  • Country: it
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2017, 02:00:57 pm »
a recent adventure with wave soldering: in this board a big automotive connector is wave soldered.
i am programming and testing the latest batch, one board won't program.. strange. then i see the smoke.
It turns out that the external 5V line is shorted to ground, the smoke came from a series resistor so the current wasn't high enough to trigger OCP but high enough to excheed the power rating and burn the resistor.

a good half hour spent inspecting the board and then i see it, a splash of solder on the inside of the connector :palm: and the only short was between +5V and GND, of course.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2017, 02:05:19 pm »
Few more bingos from Birmingham.
Aren't those just the wrong USB connectors? Maybe these simply weren't connectors intended for reflow. The pin headers look fine.
Why would they need to be intended for reflow?
Things intended for reflow need to be built to tolerate the temperatures involved in reflow. Some things designed for reflow with leaded solder can't take the higher temperatures involved in lead free reflow.

Many through hole connectors can't tolerate reflow, as they were designed for wave soldering. Wave soldering keeps a lot of the heat away from the side of the board with the plastic parts.
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2017, 02:11:12 pm »
coppice, PCBs that have both type of components are made in two stages.
These are PTH connectors.  They are not intended for reflow.

Few other jobbies from the same gentlemen.  Unfortunately, we figured them out too late to stop the destruction.

 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16795
  • Country: lv
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2017, 02:32:40 pm »
Things intended for reflow need to be built to tolerate the temperatures involved in reflow. Some things designed for reflow with leaded solder can't take the higher temperatures involved in lead free reflow.

Many through hole connectors can't tolerate reflow, as they were designed for wave soldering. Wave soldering keeps a lot of the heat away from the side of the board with the plastic parts.
Trough hole parts = not intended for reflow. Sometimes reflow can be done to avoid additional production stage but this is a special case when components need verification they can withstand it, not how things are done normally. Also there is so much solder on the solder joints it's basically impossible that was reflow soldered. Not enough solder to fill the hole is actually a big problem if you reflow solder TH components.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8605
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #110 on: December 27, 2017, 02:38:40 pm »
Trough hole parts = not intended for reflow.
That's not strictly true. Reflow is not the ideal (or cheapest) way to solder through hole parts. However, many through hole connectors and heavy inductors are designed to tolerate the temperatures involved in reflow, so the board can be stuffed in one go, and all the parts will be safe during the reflow step(s).
 

Offline fcb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2117
  • Country: gb
  • Test instrument designer/G1YWC
    • Electron Plus
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2017, 11:34:37 am »
I get that they might have used the wrong wave solder settings (speed), or that the USB sockets chosen/substituted aren't upto it and that the wave can easily move those long cage-clamps (or they weren't seated correctly etc..).

What I can't get my head round is that they still sent them out - their QC must be non-existent.
https://electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References, Picoammeters, Curve Tracers.
 

Offline julianhigginson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 783
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2017, 11:44:34 am »
every package from these guys must have you jumping up and down with excited anticipation at what they have stuffed up this time!
 

Offline Gribo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 629
  • Country: ca
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2017, 02:39:06 pm »
Quote
What I can't get my head round is that they still sent them out - their QC must be non-existent.

Maybe it was approved by blind hamsters?
I am available for freelance work.
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #114 on: December 29, 2017, 09:58:08 am »
Quote
What I can't get my head round is that they still sent them out - their QC must be non-existent.

Maybe it was approved by blind hamsters?
Oi! Stop talking about my critters.   :o

Kidding. Mine's a rather pudgy lab cat (originally named Oliver after Oliver Twist, but has since been properly renamed Porkins).   :o  >:D
 

Offline capt bullshot

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3033
  • Country: de
    • Mostly useless stuff, but nice to have: wunderkis.de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2018, 09:32:11 am »
A rather smallish mishap:

Safety devices hinder evolution
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, I wanted a rude username

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2018, 09:36:22 am »
How the hell did that happen  :-DD
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4694
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2018, 09:44:11 am »
I'm more impressed that the connectors look so unaffected, the USB socket has had so much solder pour in that its leaking out the back corner yet the ethernet and general connector are un-melted to my eyes.
 

Offline capt bullshot

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3033
  • Country: de
    • Mostly useless stuff, but nice to have: wunderkis.de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #118 on: December 17, 2018, 09:58:49 am »
I'm more impressed that the connectors look so unaffected, the USB socket has had so much solder pour in that its leaking out the back corner yet the ethernet and general connector are un-melted to my eyes.

It's difficult to see on that photo, the solder has found its way in between the USB and eth socket, not through them. I've heard someone mumbling about the hand operated mini wave soldering machine ...
Safety devices hinder evolution
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16272
  • Country: za
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2018, 09:59:03 am »
Went Under the wave, not on the top of it.......
 

Offline tristan PCB

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 8
  • Country: cn
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2018, 11:20:47 am »
I really “admire” the professional manufacturing level
 

Offline hermit

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 482
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2018, 01:07:14 pm »
I'm more impressed that the connectors look so unaffected, the USB socket has had so much solder pour in that its leaking out the back corner yet the ethernet and general connector are un-melted to my eyes.

It's difficult to see on that photo, the solder has found its way in between the USB and eth socket, not through them. I've heard someone mumbling about the hand operated mini wave soldering machine ...
Hand operated mini tsunami soldering machine.....
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2018, 01:10:22 pm »
Someone put a drunk T1000 in it
 

Offline CJay

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4136
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2018, 03:01:54 pm »
A rather smallish mishap:



Pfft, bit of solderwick and a steady hand, she'll be right...
 

Offline julianhigginson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 783
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2018, 08:16:02 pm »
How on earth did that get packed and sent?
 

Offline capt bullshot

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3033
  • Country: de
    • Mostly useless stuff, but nice to have: wunderkis.de
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #125 on: December 18, 2018, 07:55:27 am »
How on earth did that get packed and sent?
This thing never left the shop and was properly scrapped before I could take the photo.
Safety devices hinder evolution
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1527
  • Country: au
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #126 on: December 18, 2018, 08:28:25 am »
Flooding ...depends on the machine and or pallet.

Somtimes the machine board sensor will mistime and the wave will come on too early.

Sometimes if the board is not clipped into a carrier pallet solder may flood the board through the gap.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17728
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #127 on: December 26, 2018, 09:43:05 am »
Pfft, bit of solderwick and a steady hand, she'll be right...

As the machinists say, it will buff out.

just hold it at the right angle and blow torch it :)
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3452
  • Country: it
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2019, 08:09:58 am »
Top board was not communicating with bottom board

« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:13:43 am by JPortici »
 

Offline ddavidebor

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1190
  • Country: gb
    • Smartbox AT
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #129 on: August 19, 2019, 12:48:30 pm »
It's only me who never had this sort of issues?
David - Professional Engineer - Medical Devices and Tablet Computers at Smartbox AT
Side businesses: Altium Industry Expert writer, http://fermium.ltd.uk (Scientific Equiment), http://chinesecleavers.co.uk (Cutlery),
 

Offline SMTech

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 845
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #130 on: August 19, 2019, 01:38:00 pm »
If the production doesn't happen in your own facility, there really isn't much reason for you to get to see it. Accidents/Failures will happen on even the best of production lines, particularly in smaller volumes where there isn't the budget to justify a jig/pallet which could/should have prevented some of the flooding examples shown.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3452
  • Country: it
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2019, 09:29:32 am »
Exactly. we get to see something that has slipped through QC at the production facility, because the vision system (or the qc employee) wouldn't be able to recognize the failure.
Every time we catch something the production facility asks for a report so that they can improve the process
 

Offline jonroger

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Country: us
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2019, 04:13:44 pm »
> A very good way to test for fake ICs is X-ray.

Perhaps publishing a X-ray fingerprint for parts will become standard.   Similar to signed binaries for software.
I am available for custom hardware/firmware development.
 

Offline Leo BodnarTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2019, 09:40:25 pm »
Today we have rescued our £££ assembly kit from a UK assembly house that went into administration few days ago. 
I think we were hours away from never seeing it again.

Their last batch has tonnes of problems but we are happy we at least got non-working boards back and the rest of the kit.

Plumbing new lows.

Leo
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13695
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2019, 09:48:07 pm »
Today we have rescued our £££ assembly kit from a UK assembly house that went into administration few days ago. 

Who, out of curiosity ? (I believe administration is on public record) - PM if you prefer.

Many years ago I bought a load of stuff from a tender sale of an assembly house - at the viewing there were a number of un-lotted boxes which they told me were subject to retention of title, and were clearly customer kits, assemblies and test jigs, but on the day of collection the auctioneer company people  didn't give a toss and were happy to let it all go to anyone to avoid having to haul it into the skip.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Professional assembly mishaps
« Reply #135 on: November 28, 2019, 10:01:42 pm »

Who, out of curiosity ? (I believe administration is on public record)

Yes, very much so. As well as there being court records (High Court) of administrators appointed, a notice of the appointment is posted in the London Gazette.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf