Author Topic: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting  (Read 6275 times)

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Offline TJ232

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2019, 02:03:25 am »
Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.
[...]
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Not at all, I was just saying that from my personal point of view was enough talk about Customs tariffs. It's not rocket science, for EU, just check TARIC website, As a good practice all the time be sure that all the papers are proper prepared BEFORE goods departure, and that's it. And yes, we have done it many times, including for PNP's, it takes some time, you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.
 
Quote
Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

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Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

Because he is on the both ends of the whole chain and actually controlling it from product design, to production, import and distribution, I think he is the only one that can decide where and how is better to balance incomes for a better fiscal optimization. If you ask me in cases like that the expected extra cost is on the 8%-25%, depending on the volume and whole product margin rate.
I would pay this extra to be able to buy from inside EU, to be able to pay to a EU company, not in some personal Chinese bank account and to have to explain to the fiscal authorities why I'm doing such a thing, to have better support in English, etc.

But really, let's let this thread to be what's intended to be, a full review of a very interesting PNP machine that "revenue_controls" kindly will do for us all.
With zillions of pictures, videos, software presentation and even more details if possible, Thank you. :popcorn:


 

Offline ebastler

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2019, 02:17:35 am »
Quote
Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

It's not a bad thing, of course. All I wanted to point out is that it does not come for free (for the vendor, and hence for you as a customer).

To put it another way: SmallSMT are currently cutting some corners, you might even say evading some responsibilities, by selling direct from China. That saves them money, and enables the attractive prices. They have made a choice in favor of that business model; customers can make a choice and buy elsewhere if they prefer a different model.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2019, 04:25:00 am »
.... you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.

Now Curious, to know if the Commercial Invoice with the machine the machine where consistent with the payment.
 
This so far has been an adventure....
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 
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Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2019, 05:25:16 am »
yes
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #154 on: May 11, 2019, 08:23:11 am »
MrPackethead,

Why dont You purchase a machine and finaly give Your self and the rest of us a break from well meaning belligerence.
Else start a topic all Your own where You can rightly and justifiably steer discussion the way you want it to go.

Let revenue control  do his thing, this is why he started this topic.
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2019, 09:00:02 am »
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2019, 09:08:58 am »
yes...
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2019, 10:23:05 am »
was it just for shipping a test pcb or something.   that wont' be how you use it?
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #158 on: May 11, 2019, 10:42:56 am »
yes, just for shipping. It has very nice pcb mounting system with registration channels and spring loaded stops. I will be up loading more pics soon.
I am currently playing with the software. and manually controlling the machine.
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #159 on: May 11, 2019, 01:06:53 pm »
What are you going to make?
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #160 on: May 11, 2019, 05:38:03 pm »
The "Packet noise" is high on this thread (one could even hope for "Packet loss")....  |O

I'm extremely looking forward to hear about the results and experience on this machine, thanks to "revenue" for taking the time to do this!
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #161 on: May 12, 2019, 08:51:41 am »
Revenue, are you going to be distributing these machines in the USA?
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2019, 09:10:15 pm »
I haven't forgot about you guys... I have been playing with the machine, loading feeders and learning the software. It's all starting to make sense.


 
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Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2019, 10:23:47 pm »
is it possible to upload videos to the forum or do I have to link it to youtube?
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2019, 10:39:39 pm »
Link to YT.
eBay shop with all the gear you need!
FS: Agilent 54815A, 54825A, R&S CMU200, CRTU, SFU, SMIQ06L, SFU, HP8714B, 8595E, Marconi 6201B, Lecroy WP 960,950, 9354TM, THS720P, Anritsu MG3671A 2.75G I/Q RF gen, MS8604A 8.5GHz SA, Keithley 238 SMU
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #165 on: May 15, 2019, 10:36:21 am »
my son just came home from college for the summer and he figured out the machine in 10 minutes!
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #166 on: May 15, 2019, 05:11:49 pm »
Revenue,

What PC are You using ?
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #167 on: May 15, 2019, 08:43:48 pm »
Revenue,

What PC are You using ?

Just an average windows 7 machine.

I now have 95% of the software figured out. Next step is to load all of the feeders and get them calibrated.
I will post a video later today.   
 
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Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #168 on: May 16, 2019, 09:22:50 am »
Check out the walk around video...
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #169 on: May 16, 2019, 02:16:14 pm »
Thanks revenue,

I am expecting my machine to arrive sometime in first week of June. A  VP-2800HP-CL64-4R minus the conveyor system with a bunch of pushfeeders and a mix of CL feeders.
We decided on this machine due to the number of available feeders.
The 4R head was selected in order to improve on optical fly by characteristics of the in line design of the head.
I had spoken to Michael about the PC ( hence my question ) with the view to minimising vision processing time.Michael's advice an i5 core machine.

Presently most of my machines are older generation.I have a collection of sun work stations i use to run linuxCNC to control the milling machine and laser exposure machines.
Presently investigating ryzen5 and intel core5 machines.

I am following Your exploits with considerable interest; thank You.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #170 on: May 16, 2019, 06:18:24 pm »
I find it fairly unlikely these machines use software that is heavily optimized to use multiple cores&threads and its worth bearing in mind that p&p machines have been running vision at speed for quite some time. Admittedly Cognex or the dedicated teams serving some of the established players might be highly skilled in writing optimised code but I would doubt there is actually any advantage in picking CPUs with extra cores, but extra Hz/IPC certainly certainly wouldn't hurt. You can get some bargain 2nd user machines but big name desktop PCs often run funny motherboards & power supplies or have power limits that mean the CPU you pay for can never or barely run at its rated speed. I'd be tempted to find  something like a z400/420 for a system designed to be rocksolid.

Our 2012 Essemtec runs on an i3 with 2GB of RAM and the vision system of that reads processes 4 devices at once from a single camera quick enough you can't really see it pause at the camera.
Our decidedly less clever 2002 Versatronics ran on a 733Mhz P3, you could sort of see it pause but its vision routines were interesting at best and the camera FOV so narrow it used multiple fields of view for quite a few things.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #171 on: May 16, 2019, 07:07:18 pm »
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:17:47 pm by IconicPCB »
 

Offline SWR

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #172 on: May 16, 2019, 07:13:07 pm »
I'm using my laptop to run my VP-2500DP and it runs very smooth.
It's an Acer Aspire with a Core i7-7700HQ and a GeForce GTX 1060 graphics card.
I think it's what they call a budget gaming machine (< $1000).
You should never go down on equipment!
 

Offline revenue_controls

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #173 on: May 16, 2019, 08:01:56 pm »
Thanks revenue,

I am expecting my machine to arrive sometime in first week of June. A  VP-2800HP-CL64-4R minus the conveyor system with a bunch of pushfeeders and a mix of CL feeders.
We decided on this machine due to the number of available feeders.
The 4R head was selected in order to improve on optical fly by characteristics of the in line design of the head.
I had spoken to Michael about the PC ( hence my question ) with the view to minimising vision processing time.Michael's advice an i5 core machine.

Presently most of my machines are older generation.I have a collection of sun work stations i use to run linuxCNC to control the milling machine and laser exposure machines.
Presently investigating ryzen5 and intel core5 machines.

I am following Your exploits with considerable interest; thank You.

Looks like you went all out on the machine 8) ;D :P :-+

my PC is an i7 2700k CPU @ 3.8GHz
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 450 SE video card

Cameras look real time to me.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
« Reply #174 on: May 16, 2019, 08:39:02 pm »
Check out the walk around video...   
Looks great for that money, quite impressed.
Only thing except for the loose cabling (they could be placed in cableducts) that looks what can be improved are the placer heads.
That looks a bit plastick toyish. If they can do CNC aluminium they could have made that a bit more robust.
Like these for instance: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990

Do they have top down camera in the head or do they have linear encoders mouted or solely rely on the steppermotor encoders ?

If it works, it works ofcourse  :-+
 


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