"So i want to have my own SMT assembly line"

[mrpackethead]

I don't know how many posts we see " i want to have my own SMT assembly line ".   Do you think For every 50 or so threads someone actually does one?

I thought i'd pose some questions to start a discussion.    Some of us have some experience.

(1)  What is the motivation for having the capablity.
(2)  What do you want do ( technically )
(3)  How much work do you want to do.
(4)  What expereince do you have.

[jmelson]

I don't know how many posts we see " i want to have my own SMT assembly line ".   Do you think For every 50 or so threads someone actually does one?

I thought i'd pose some questions to start a discussion.    Some of us have some experience.

(1)  What is the motivation for having the capablity.

The main reason I do this is because I do very small runs.  Anywhere from 20 to 60 boards of one type.  That makes a contract assembler very expensive.  Of course, if I had not gotten a REAL DEAL on a used machine, this would have never made sense.  And, of course, the reason to do such small runs is so as not to have thousands of $ of stuffed boards sitting around for a long time.

Jon

[boB]

Nothing wrong with wanting to populate your own SMT boards.  We started our production using re-furbed machines.  The original cost was
still thousands of dollars and part of that was having someone to come out and calibrate the machines and show us how to use them.
Then there is the cost of the parts feeders. We found even more machines and even a couple of free machines.  Then a broken
machine for cheap but with feeders for cheap as well.

We are now running full time with 10+ QUAD machines or so with a couple extra for parts.  What I wanted to get at was that
one of these extra machines are slated for engineering.  This is for prototypes too but mainly so that the PCB layout guys can make sure
that their PCBs  are layed out and files output so that production can work with them easier and find the issues earlier.  Great learning experience.
 
But be prepared to spend lots of time and money away from actual circuit design while getting things running.  A lot more money spent gets you
a new machine with a warranty and maybe some training.

boB

[mrpackethead]

I don't know how many posts we see " i want to have my own SMT assembly line ".   Do you think For every 50 or so threads someone actually does one?

I thought i'd pose some questions to start a discussion.    Some of us have some experience.

(1)  What is the motivation for having the capablity.

The main reason I do this is because I do very small runs.  Anywhere from 20 to 60 boards of one type.  That makes a contract assembler very expensive.  Of course, if I had not gotten a REAL DEAL on a used machine, this would have never made sense.  And, of course, the reason to do such small runs is so as not to have thousands of $ of stuffed boards sitting around for a long time.

Jon

This is 80% of my story too.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Me too. At the time it was a bit  of a "new toy" and I didn't think it would pay off for the forseeable futire,  but I was so wrong. The time saved documenting things for subcontractors alone is a big saving, not to mention their setup costs and the cost of the big stencils they insist on using.
I think I paid about £5K, though I subsequently that was over that was over the odds for that (Versatronics Rv4s) machine - they typically go for £1-3K on ebay with feeders.

IMO the availability of sub - $10K solutions, either old used or new Chinese machines makes in-house a much more viable option  for many low-medium volume users. 
Yes, it does take a lot of work to get things up & running , but once running the benefits can be huge.

[ubbut]

I do small production runs of about ~100 boards. In the last years I have done this via various assembly houses in Germany, but always ran into issues. Main problem was the long wait time - sometimes 8 weeks.
So I thought I'd give one of the cheaper Chinese machines a try. Did not expect too much and was very aware this may just be something for prototypes, or pre-series runs. Took me about 1 week to get the machine running and already assembled 2 products, 100 boards each. Pleasantly surprised so far, let's see how this pans out..
Of course I don't have a wave soldering machine, so THT is a bit more complicated. Some connectors however can be soldered 'pin-in-paste', so that's less of a problem. Also there is this drag soldering tht cartridge: https://www.jbctools.com/c245669-cartridge-drag-soldering-125-s2-l-product-916-category-4-menu-4.html

[coppice]

I don't know how many posts we see " i want to have my own SMT assembly line ".   Do you think For every 50 or so threads someone actually does one?

I thought i'd pose some questions to start a discussion.    Some of us have some experience.

(1)  What is the motivation for having the capablity.

The main reason I do this is because I do very small runs.  Anywhere from 20 to 60 boards of one type.  That makes a contract assembler very expensive.  Of course, if I had not gotten a REAL DEAL on a used machine, this would have never made sense.  And, of course, the reason to do such small runs is so as not to have thousands of $ of stuffed boards sitting around for a long time.

Jon

Small runs can be expensive when you are far from the madding crowd. Everything from gathering the parts to getting them assembled is a huge drag on your time and finances. If you are somewhere like Shenzhen, you are so close to many people who can supply parts from stock, and who can do various kinds of small volume manufacturing, that your ways of working can be completely transformed. This is the reason so much electronics work gathers around Shenzhen. Many people who try to set up shop in the cheaper parts of China end up moving back to Shenzhen. China has a really excellent freight train network, which can reliably take something you have finished at the end of the day in Shenzhen, and have it working on a production line a 1000km away the next morning. Still manufacturers find logistics issues hamper them, and they move everything back to the Shenzhen area.

[jmelson]

Me too. At the time it was a bit  of a "new toy" and I didn't think it would pay off for the forseeable futire,  but I was so wrong.

OH, MAN!  I remember with HORROR the days of building boards by hand!  ARRghhh, I NEVER want to do that again!  I still do the first article of an all-new or major redesign of a board by hand, to make sure the board doesn't have some totally catastrophic error, like using the wrong FPGA pinout, that saves me making a set of solder stencils for something that won't work.  But, I've built some thousands of boards on my P&P, and can't imagine ever having to go back to manual.

 The time saved documenting things for subcontractors alone is a big saving, not to mention their setup costs and the cost of the big stencils they insist on using.

I have never used an assembly house, but I have recently seen some prices that look less HORRIBLE than they were a decade ago, but still the setup charge/job would be pretty high with my volume.

Jon

[rx8pilot]

I have posted numerous times  - many of those may sound like doom and gloom but in the end....I am VERY VERY happy I have a P&P line.

To qualify that a bit better, I am only happy because it works and places the vast majority of parts that I need to place. It sits turned off most of the time. When it is needed - it is generally an 'emergency' and there is literally no off-site assembly option at any price that could deal with my needs. For example - a new set of PCB's arrives on a Friday and I need working PCB's by Monday. Perhaps 2-3 different designs, double-sided, 5 pcs of each. 100 unique parts, 750 total parts, some parts are still being calculated as the assembly process is happening.

I don't have to document anything, talk to anyone, wonder if the diodes are reversed, wonder if 1% passives are being placed with 5% parts, etc. The direct to assembly option in-house makes up for the effort that goes into setting up and dealing with the machine.

My needs:
Small volume, short lead times, deal with design un-knowns (last second changes).

[mrpackethead]

To qualify that a bit better, I am only happy because it works and places the vast majority of parts that I need to place. It sits turned off most of the time.

My line gets used about 1.5 days a week on average.    Still well worth having.

When it is needed - it is generally an 'emergency'

I wont' say emergency, but theres always time pressure.   Someone wants somethign as quickly as possible.   I dont' want to have to keep truck loads of finished stock on the shelf.    And often the customers requirement is customised anyway, so it has to be manfuactured as its order.

I don't have to document anything, talk to anyone, wonder if the diodes are reversed, wonder if 1% passives are being placed with 5% parts, etc. The direct to assembly option in-house makes up for the effort that goes into setting up and dealing with the machine.

the talk to somone part.  Transfering all the nessary information is what takes huge amoutn of time, and huge amount of effort, and is where mistakes happen.
[/quote]


The cost for me, was a huge investment in having an end to end system that lets me design for manufacture the moment i start drawing a schematic.  ( for my line )

[D3f1ant]

Merge previous few posts and that's why we have our own machines too. In house proper CNC is next. We already have one of those little CNC routers, but we farm out a lot of custom enclosure work that could be done in house The CNC router gets used as often the PNP machine, boards always need a box with cutouts.

[rx8pilot]

Proper CNC is a rather serious learning curve, but I can't imagine my operation without.

Low cost machines are harder to use than a true commercial option - Haas and higher. All of them have a tendency to suck in time like a super massive black hole. Workholding is the big surprise learning challenge that surprises most newcomers. The expenses never really stop since you always need a different tool, a coolant filter, software upgrades, tool boxes, a bigger compressor, an air dryer, a saw, tool holders, vises, fixture clamps, metrology, surface plate, etc, etc, etc....

12 years in.... I am still surprised constantly at the never ending needs.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[mrpackethead]

Proper CNC is a rather serious learning curve, but I can't imagine my operation without.

Low cost machines are harder to use than a true commercial option - Haas and higher. All of them have a tendency to suck in time like a super massive black hole. Workholding is the big surprise learning challenge that surprises most newcomers. The expenses never really stop since you always need a different tool, a coolant filter, software upgrades, tool boxes, a bigger compressor, an air dryer, a saw, tool holders, vises, fixture clamps, metrology, surface plate, etc, etc, etc....

12 years in.... I am still surprised constantly at the never ending needs.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

Like proper PNP.  You're always needing new feeders, new belts, nozzles.   Etc etc.    And its a rather serious learning curve to do it well, to get 1 in 10,000 placments error rate.            I bet the people who Do their on CNC probalby also do their own PNP.  Its all about attitude.   ( I also cut my own plastic in a laser cutter! )

[Gary.M]

I do small production runs of about ~100 boards. In the last years I have done this via various assembly houses in Germany, but always ran into issues. Main problem was the long wait time - sometimes 8 weeks.
So I thought I'd give one of the cheaper Chinese machines a try. Did not expect too much and was very aware this may just be something for prototypes, or pre-series runs. Took me about 1 week to get the machine running and already assembled 2 products, 100 boards each. Pleasantly surprised so far, let's see how this pans out..
Of course I don't have a wave soldering machine, so THT is a bit more complicated. Some connectors however can be soldered 'pin-in-paste', so that's less of a problem. Also there is this drag soldering tht cartridge: https://www.jbctools.com/c245669-cartridge-drag-soldering-125-s2-l-product-916-category-4-menu-4.html

Which machine did you buy?

[ubbut]

I do small production runs of about ~100 boards. In the last years I have done this via various assembly houses in Germany, but always ran into issues. Main problem was the long wait time - sometimes 8 weeks.
So I thought I'd give one of the cheaper Chinese machines a try. Did not expect too much and was very aware this may just be something for prototypes, or pre-series runs. Took me about 1 week to get the machine running and already assembled 2 products, 100 boards each. Pleasantly surprised so far, let's see how this pans out..
Of course I don't have a wave soldering machine, so THT is a bit more complicated. Some connectors however can be soldered 'pin-in-paste', so that's less of a problem. Also there is this drag soldering tht cartridge: https://www.jbctools.com/c245669-cartridge-drag-soldering-125-s2-l-product-916-category-4-menu-4.html

Which machine did you buy?

TVM802B, but there are several similar machines

[jmelson]

When it is needed - it is generally an 'emergency' and there is literally no off-site assembly option at any price that could deal with my needs. For example - a new set of PCB's arrives on a Friday and I need working PCB's by Monday. Perhaps 2-3 different designs, double-sided, 5 pcs of each.

Well, I really try to AVOID these situations.  I do have ONE board that I make for ONE customer, it is basically an 8-channel version of one of my standard boards.  Well, I don't keep any stock of these completed boards, and they had one go bad in the field.  So, that was a big rush to get them a couple boards whipped up.

But, otherwise, I try to calculate the rate boards get sold, and schedule to make a run so that I don't run out of them.  I really HATE to have big time pressure to cranks stuff out.  That's how you make mistakes that can lead to wasted boards or a lot of rework.

Jon

[jmelson]

My line gets used about 1.5 days a week on average.    Still well worth having.

HAH!  My P&P gets used more like 1.5 days a MONTH, and I STILL think it is WELL worth having!  Of course, not at new prices for a commercial-grade P&P, but for what I paid for it, YES INDEED!

Jon

[pauljmccain]

Just chiming in - I started with a TM802A as well for my business. Same reason, very low volume. It was also much easier than engineering for a contract assembler (though this isn't really a positive, it was just convenient for us not knowing a thing about assembly or contract assembly).

Now, 4 years later, we are running two lines with older Assembleon/Yamaha chipshooters, Speedline screenprinter, and AOI. Staff of two, 8 hrs a day every day. Obviously there's a huge investment now with component inventory, QC, training, machine maintenance, etc... but it's definitely still worth it, and I'm glad we do it vs contracting. Our batch sizes are still 100-200 panels max, running around 200 different products. We can turn things around very quickly, and adjust lead times as we see fit. We have looked at moving some of our higher-volume work to contract, but the best cost we've found is nearly double what we pay, even with utilities, rent, depreciation, etc factored in.

[rx8pilot]

Well, I really try to AVOID these situations.  I do have ONE board that I make for ONE customer, it is basically an 8-channel version of one of my standard boards.  Well, I don't keep any stock of these completed boards, and they had one go bad in the field.  So, that was a big rush to get them a couple boards whipped up.

If I could find a way out of this, I would take it. The nature of the industry and the product create a lot of last-second demand for products that are semi-custom. Not something I like, but something I have to deal with. The parts are too expensive to keep the shelves stocked with much. Whatever I put on the shelf seems to be a different configuration than what gets ordered.

[mrpackethead]

Well, I really try to AVOID these situations.  I do have ONE board that I make for ONE customer, it is basically an 8-channel version of one of my standard boards.  Well, I don't keep any stock of these completed boards, and they had one go bad in the field.  So, that was a big rush to get them a couple boards whipped up.

If I could find a way out of this, I would take it. The nature of the industry and the product create a lot of last-second demand for products that are semi-custom. Not something I like, but something I have to deal with. The parts are too expensive to keep the shelves stocked with much. Whatever I put on the shelf seems to be a different configuration than what gets ordered.

What i've found is that by consoldiating my BOM down to as few parts as possible,  ( in my case i have 172 core parts ), its possible not to have to change / move the PNP line configuration very much at all.. the stock parts can just stay on the machines.      This means that its just a matter of changintg the 'program' on the pnp's,  and putting a differnet stencil on.     Easy now.  Was a big job to get there.

Electronics production is not about PNP, thats somethign that happens down the track. Its about being super efficent in information managment.

[D3f1ant]

That's exactly what we do as well. Because we make a lot of automotive product, pretty much everything we build gets rated parts regardless. It's not worth the time swapping out a feeder save a few cents per board.

After a while it does become more about logistics of finding parts you know you have  somewhere, there is always odd values. We saw this thing first first hand at electronex and it seems like a great idea.

https://www.cluso.com.au/invman

[mrpackethead]

We build our own inventory system from teh ground up, its been key to making thigns work.

We use altium for design.   So all my librarys now are dblib based.    The same database that contains the information about the components, also contains the inventory information.          After i create a BOM in a design, i can quickly run a 'machine-pick' script that will generate a report for that tells me where stuff is.    It seperates the report into sections;   parts that are already on the machine lines,  parts that are in stock and need putting on the machines,  parts that will be needed but hand assembled, and then a list of parts that need ordering.

When i order parts, those orders get entered into the system, the parts get given a 'location' of 'ordered'..    When the parts arrive,  each reel/bag box of parts gets given an artibory unique QR code ( we used UUID's )..  This means we can preprint sheets of Barcodes on the laser printer onto low cost label sheets.   We bring up the list of 'ordered parts', find the part we are looking for.. and then scan the barcode we stuck on it, to register it..      From there, anytime you touch the parts you scan it..     We have stock locations.. ( i'm using small bins that hold about to 10 x 8mm reels ) mostly..   each has a barcode as well.   So you scan the part,   scan the "move" QR code  ( saves keystrokes ) and then scan the location code.        We dont' have to put stock in any particular location. Just an empty space,    It updates the database every time its moved.    If someone pulls a reel out and leaves it on top of the PNP machine.. (meh! ) you can just scan it, and put it away, and its not lost.

When we finish a PNP job we know how many parts where used, and we can then decrement the quantitys etc.

The barcode scanners cost about $35 for wired USB ones.  the wireless ones a bit more.   Bar code lables cost $30 for a box of 100 sheets of 70 per sheet.      Database and sdesign... LOTS of time!   Theres a lot more i'd like to do with it, but need time to do so.

[D3f1ant]

That sounds exactly like what I need. Pity I don't have the time build and develop something myself. Shortcut is to buy something off the shelf like the invman but it's fairly expensive. Complete system is around US$15k apparently. Not sure I could build it for that, unless I rate my time at 0.

[mrpackethead]

I probably coudl make mine public, but its so custom for us, that i'm not sure it would be that useful to anyone else. and its got lots of hacks in it, and things to fix..

[SMTech]

If you want a stock system that integrates that closely with multiple sources it will indeed be expensive and require some custom modules. Even $15k might be a conservative estimate, if you buy a big name package like Sage Manufacturing, the price is IIRC over double that. Just like office however you can pay for many of them as you go, and there are a bunch of open source ones if you have some time to put into setting them up, any package requires a fair bit of effort just to going just to get your data in. The primary acronym is an MES but these tools are manufacturing tuned implementations often offering the features of CRM and MRP so you can find manufacturing modules to add into packages that do that too.

A common package offered by distributors is Aegis Factory Logix , in the UK I have encountered several medium size IT support companies/software that have seemingly developed their own.
Some examples

http://www.manuonline.com/
https://qcadoo.com/en/
https://www.ogl.co.uk/profitplus
https://www.anagramsystems.co.uk/
https://www.xtuple.com/products/postbooks

loads of others, of course some of these can or do go way beyond what many small businesses want, planning lead times, servicing intervals. With open source versions there is always the potential of knocking up a script to integrate a data source of your own against the one the system uses.