Author Topic: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors  (Read 119787 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2017, 11:47:01 pm »
The high pressure of a crimped connection creates a cold weld and the metals are bonded together, so there shouldn't be any oxidation if the copper is cleaned before being crimped.

The problem with solder is that you're adding a dissimilar metal (lead) into the mix, which can create additional thermal EMF.

What's the effect (or preferably lack of effect) of using lead-free solder or high silver content solder such as 4% Ag, 95.5% Sn, 0.5%Cu ?

And apologies for the necropost; I'm only just starting to fall into this bottomless pit.
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Offline Kenny Powers

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2017, 07:01:28 am »
The high pressure of a crimped connection creates a cold weld and the metals are bonded together, so there shouldn't be any oxidation if the copper is cleaned before being crimped.

The problem with solder is that you're adding a dissimilar metal (lead) into the mix, which can create additional thermal EMF.

What's the effect (or preferably lack of effect) of using lead-free solder or high silver content solder such as 4% Ag, 95.5% Sn, 0.5%Cu ?

And apologies for the necropost; I'm only just starting to fall into this bottomless pit.

Also interested in this if anyone had carried out any tests?

I picked up a few feet of Belden 8719, is there any point in me connecting the guard lead on to the shield most of the units I would be testing don't have a guard for eg 34401A. So I could only connect the guard at one end?
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2017, 07:40:04 am »
You shouldn't connect the guard twice to LO. If I forgot to set the guard switch on the 3458A into the right position in connection with the 5440B, there will appear some ppm of offsets due to EMI.
 

Offline Kenny Powers

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2017, 08:41:10 am »
So you only connect it to one instrument, if they both have a guard terminal? and if not just to the calibrator?


Thanks
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2017, 09:07:09 am »
If both have a guard terminal it should only connected at one instrument to LO. The 3458A (3456A...) and the Fluke 5440B calibrator have both a switch to disconnect guard from LO. The guard is connected to both instruments.

Edit: In case of the 34401A I'm not sure about the best practice. One could connect LO to guard at the 34401 and disconnect the guard from LO at the calibrator. The other way is to connect the guard only to the calibrator. I would prefer the first option.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:29:41 am by e61_phil »
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2017, 01:05:43 pm »
On Teflon wire, AFAIK it's a high temperature process so tinned wire won't work. Probably problems with bare copper too, so all you find is silver plated wire.

I avoid all the crimping and worry by just putting the (clean) wire(s) in the hole and tightening the jack.
 
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2017, 07:35:05 pm »
On Teflon wire, AFAIK it's a high temperature process so tinned wire won't work. Probably problems with bare copper too, so all you find is silver plated wire.

I avoid all the crimping and worry by just putting the (clean) wire(s) in the hole and tightening the jack.

This is by far the best route to repeatable results.  In fact, whenever we can in the cal rooms we just leave the wires attached to an instrument - say 3458a - and just trim and restrip the DUT end of the wire for the next test  setup.  A lot of times the "low Thermal" connectors won't solve whatever is really wrong with your test setup - which is usually caused by poor thermal management.

If you're chasing PPM's and repeat-ability, you really want to stay away from "banana" plugs and sockets if you can - good, clean, snug (not squashed) copper to clean copper connections are best.  Just a clean copper wire into the cross-drilled hole and snug the nut down.  Even better yet is to make sure your connections are at same temp. and draft free.  That will get you as good or better results than any "Low Thermal" banana or spade lug setup (for voltage / resistance we don't usually use spades, current measures are where spades can help spread the contact area & lower local heat).

Sometimes we will spec an instrument to come modified from the vendor with the recessed banana sockets replaced with binding posts, or they must supply an adapter board that gives us access to make clean copper wire connections as required. 

Make good use of guard connections also - and those are only connected at one end.  Normally you don't want any device-to-device current flow in your guard / shield.

If you have to use a connector,  a good quality crimp is best, and use the correct crimp dies to achieve a solid connection without weakening the conductor.  You don't want to over-crimp the wire so that the conductor starts extruding out from the crimp area - that will cause weird effects also.

If the crimp is solid & correct, you normally don't need or want any solder - unless specifically called for.  A quick & simple test for a correct crimp setup is to crimp on a sacrificial connector, then clamp down the connector in a vise or similar and pull on the wire until the wire breaks. The break in the wire should -not- occur at the crimp joint.  If the broken conductor is at the crimp, then you need to look at your crimp process.  Normally a good crimped joint will be stronger than the wire by itself.

Obviously, if you do the above test and the wire slips out of the crimp, then that's wrong also. ;D

Teflon insulation can help on situations where very small current flows will have an effect. Sometimes PVC insulation is fine, it just depends on what you're measuring and at what voltage.



 
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Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2017, 03:36:28 pm »
because I am still searching, here is a short update.
Does anyone know where to find these JST spade lugs?

thx
quarks

I bought some copper spade lugs from China ,not bad.
I use it to made a 34420A test lead.

The left side of the picture is original 34420A test lead,
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 07:17:47 pm by 0.01C »
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Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2017, 05:32:21 pm »
So far (besides ebay) I have not found DeoxIT in Germany.
And with equivalent products from "Kontakt Chemie" I am not happy with my handmade lugs (see the one in the middle).

quarks i got my deoxit from Holland , shipping shouldn't be bad to .de

http://www.schreeven.nl/3313-deoxit
http://www.schreeven.nl/3315-deoxit

/Bingo

The price of the deoxit HKG agent is the cheapest , can pay via paypal.

http://www.clarityd.com/main/en/products/caig/detoxit-d-series-cleaner
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2017, 08:11:38 pm »

I bought some copper spade lugs from China ,not bad.
I use it to made a 34420A test lead.

The left side of the picture is original 34420A test lead,

1.)
I don't have a 34420A (but one day I will), so I am not completely familiar with the connector.
But your own 34420A cable looks like it has a LEMO connector, is that correct?
If so, what is the LEMO connector number?

2.)
What base PTFE cable are you using for the 34420A cable?

3.)
What precision resistor are you using to get 10.0000 °C on the 34420A
Very impressive !
The 34420A is probably one of the best temperature measurement instruments.



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Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2017, 09:04:05 pm »

I bought some copper spade lugs from China ,not bad.
I use it to made a 34420A test lead.

The left side of the picture is original 34420A test lead,

1.)
I don't have a 34420A (but one day I will), so I am not completely familiar with the connector.
But your own 34420A cable looks like it has a LEMO connector, is that correct?
If so, what is the LEMO connector number?

2.)
What base PTFE cable are you using for the 34420A cable?

3.)
What precision resistor are you using to get 10.0000 °C on the 34420A
Very impressive !
The 34420A is probably one of the best temperature measurement instruments.

1.  correct , it is Lemo connector ,original is about $100
http://www.ebay.com/itm/95H8756-Agilent-Technologies-34104A-Low-Thermal-Input-Connector-For-34420A-/271810830417?hash=item3f49302051:g:WjQAAOSw2gxYvV6q
There are two Lemo plug can use in 34420A ,
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/looking-for-the-input-connectors-for-agilent-34420a/
I use China made Lemo ffa 1s (gold plated) $5  ;),

2. cable : 3.6mm Teflon silver plated four wire shielded cable $3/M ,
copper spade lug 5pcs <$1
Total : <$20 (original >$200)

3. I used Fluke 518 dry block and L&N 8163 SPRT , 10.0000 °C just can keep 1-2s ;)
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2017, 09:38:21 pm »
Thanks for this information, 0.01C

I have never heard of a L&N 8163 SPRT
You must be doing very accurate temperature measurements.
 

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Offline Muxr

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2017, 10:16:14 pm »
I've been experimenting with these (speaker) banana plugs for my logging measurements: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071LK46PD/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've made a few short twisted pair probes with them. And I really like the snug fit and the quality so far.

They have two tightening screws as well which makes the cables pretty tough to rip out of them:


 

Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2017, 10:22:12 pm »
8163 is a Meyers' type thermometer ,you see my nickname then you will know I like thermometer  :D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 10:24:45 pm by 0.01C »
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Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2017, 10:47:05 pm »
I've been experimenting with these (speaker) banana plugs for my logging measurements: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071LK46PD/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've made a few short twisted pair probes with them. And I really like the snug fit and the quality so far.

They have two tightening screws as well which makes the cables pretty tough to rip out of them:


I just find a shop selling nice binding posts,
https://world.taobao.com/item/521116800640.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.2LAU7Z#detail

the 2nd picture is the best type of the banana jack ,because it made by one piece copper

« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 10:54:01 pm by 0.01C »
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Offline z01z

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2017, 07:20:55 am »
The big question is, is it copper or brass.
If you happen to by them, please check and report back.
 

Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2017, 12:19:55 pm »
Does anyone have experience with this test leads and are willing to share the results :)
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Offline alm

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2017, 01:06:22 pm »
They also sell the parts (cable, spade lugs) separately on their own website. This is much cheaper if you need multiple cables.

Offline quarksTopic starter

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2017, 01:48:06 pm »
They also sell the parts (cable, spade lugs) separately on their own website. This is much cheaper if you need multiple cables.

the easiest way is probably to contact eevblog member ap (as he is the seller afaik)
 

Offline 0.01C

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2017, 09:13:30 am »
I received eight pure copper binding posts free sample from the taobao seller (Thanks) and already sent to TiN and some members for test the emf.
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Offline TiN

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2017, 10:23:15 am »
I just got EM A10 fixed up, also got few Pomona banana's and 3770's to try.
If anyone have specific ideas how to run TEMF connector test, I'm all ears. So far idea to hook pair of copper fresh wires to two connectors and measure differential voltage.
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2017, 07:43:53 pm »
We've found that a 3uV full scale Null meter is your best friend here to look at the differential voltage across the connector, generally easier, faster and more accurate than any DVM for this test.  Generally you test close-mounted pairs of connectors because that's how they are most often used in-circuit.

It's important to note that you want the connectors mounted to a whatever substrate they will be mounted to because the only thing that is going to generate thermal EMF trouble is if a pair of connectors are at DIFFERENT temperatures.  Generally you don't give a whit what the connector thermal EMF is if a pair of connectors in the same circuit are at same temp.  In other words mount the connectors on a good thermal conductor and you'll have far less thermal problems, if any.

It also makes a difference what wire you're using at the connector and how fast its thermal flow is contributing to a temperature difference at each node.

Of course air drafts, ambient temperature, and so on all make things better or worse. The mass of the connection joint area also sets the reaction time of the join.

So the concept of "Testing a Connector" really applies to the whole connector, wiring and enclosure SYSTEM and how and where it will be used.  Sometimes you find it doesn't matter a whole bunch - and there are much bigger errors in the system.

Suggestion: While testing connectors, jacks sockets etc., if they are threaded: use a torque wrench for repeatable torque force on the connection.  The clamping force on the conductor and how compression force is distributed  makes a difference.  Generally resistance measure circuits want a smaller contact area (to reduce changes in R especially in lower ranges), higher amperage flow wants a larger contact area (to lower self-heating) - but use what works best for your application.  When testing connectors, you also want to see how -repeatable- the connection is, not just thermal EMF.   A clean pure copper to pure copper connection is best, snug and hopefully gas-tight in the metal to metal zone but so the wire isn't extruded or bent.  Everything else goes downhill from there.

You'll probably find out that one of the best connections ever invented is just two ea. 24AWG solid -clean- copper wires well twisted together...   :)  Telco wire / shielded Cat5e wire can work for lots of stuff at DC.  If chasing PPM's then teflon insulation will certainly help solve leakage current problems, but silver-plated wire may or may not be an asset.

RE: Banana plug - not normally used for low PPM work - they really aren't that repeatable as they age and the plug spring force drops off and inside plating wears away from inside the socket.  Binding post is usually preff. for high accuracy / repeatability.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 08:04:50 pm by MisterDiodes »
 
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Offline TiN

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2017, 01:00:14 pm »
I've just got 0.01C's kit. Copper connector indeed look very much like Pomona 3770. I've took few photo to illustrate:



And here's disassembled (there is no thread stop for top nut part, so it's easy). Plus comparison to Pomona 3770 (from Digikey).

 

And here's idea of testing just connector alone. Just to make it act as a thermocouple, with pure clean fresh wire attached on base and nut part. Perhaps I'll need to add second connector outside of the thermal box, otherwise TEMF will cancel out with just one connector. Purpose is to sort copper-copper connectors vs plated brass ones.



Keithley 2002 on 20microvolt range should be well suitable for the task measuring thermocouple voltages.

Perhaps 0.01C can be kind for us to have group order of copper 5-way binding posts? I'd be definitely willing to buy 50-100pcs of these and could spread the batches for rest of copper nuts here.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 04:50:10 am by TiN »
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2017, 05:20:33 pm »
I would still suggest you test in series connected pairs at some point - because most of the time that's how they will really be used in circuit.  i.e. one connector is adding a thermal error, and the second is canceling it out with the same thermal error emf (mostly).  Air drafts ruin that theory, of course.  Normally if the connector pairs are  at same temp the cancellation effect works very well and you don't worry about it most of the time.

A decent low thermal post will have a base insulator that has high thermal conductivity - so that when you mount a pair to aluminum or copper base, the connector post pair will be at same temp, or close to it.  Those posts in the photo all look like the usual cheaper low-grade hobby stuff, built by people with little or no understanding of how thermal flow works.  They way those are built, it will be harder for the connector pair to be at the same temp. even when mounted to a good thermal reference substrate.

By the way - always test with the low-thermal connectors mounted up to a proper thermal-conductive base plate.  Not plastic!!!

If those are real bare copper posts and spades, that's great - that will help!.  That also means you clean the connections -every- time.  File into the connector and see if they are just plated.  That happens a lot, dang!

Try different wire sizes on the series-connected pair setup also, and check the difference between spades vs clean bare wire going the the center post hole.

Don't forget to test for connection repeat-ability.  You'll tend to see that get a bit wonky with banana plugs / sockets after a few hundred cycles.  That's why DMM's with binding posts work more repeatably when chasing low ppm's.

No Null meter?  These are easier/faster than DVM to see what's going on, quickly.  You want to put that on your shopping list....once you learn to use one you realize they are quick and easy, and require no real calibration even with an extremely high input impedance near null - which is what you need to check thermal emf effects.

Watch out for that amp on there - with the setup you've got it will tend to pick up any noise from anywhere.  Make sure to run tests first with just a straight solid connection (without connector in circuit - just twist wires together + wire nut if you have to) and make sure you're at close to zero emf. (i.e. noise floor).  Keep your wiring very short, and use your guards too.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 05:34:31 pm by MisterDiodes »
 
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Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: DIY Low EMF cable and connectors
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2017, 08:27:29 pm »
TiN:  Another thought...with that amp in there you're be measuring any UN-equal thermal junction EMF's across -all- the front-end connectors in your setup, along with the connectors under test.  Just a head's up to watch out for that.  You want to keep it all short, tight, shielded / guarded, etc. and thermally equalized everywhere.
 
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