Author Topic: Fluke 732C  (Read 12464 times)

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Offline Awesome14

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2017, 05:11:31 am »
Hi,

I looked at 732B teardown. I don't know if it is late production, I suspect that it isn't. The teardown showed a thru-hole board. This is a target for redesign because the thru-hole parts will be getting hard to get.

The battery chemistry may be another target. VRLA or SLA is still a good for this application, but Li-ion may be considered sexier.

The reference section may be a target for value engineering. It may be that 732B are much better than the specification.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

One of my 732Bs drifts 0.1ppm/90 days. I think the spec is 0.3ppm/month.
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Offline VintageNut

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2017, 03:20:51 pm »
Hi,

I looked at 732B teardown. I don't know if it is late production, I suspect that it isn't. The teardown showed a thru-hole board. This is a target for redesign because the thru-hole parts will be getting hard to get.

The battery chemistry may be another target. VRLA or SLA is still a good for this application, but Li-ion may be considered sexier.

The reference section may be a target for value engineering. It may be that 732B are much better than the specification.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

One of my 732Bs drifts 0.1ppm/90 days. I think the spec is 0.3ppm/month.

I have seen the long-term data for a bank of 732Bs at a primary lab. 0.03 ppm / month is what a good 732B looks like at that lab.
working instruments :Keithley 260,261,2750,7708, 2000 (calibrated), 2015, 236, 237, 238, 147, 220,  Rigol DG1032  PAR Model 128 Lock-In amplifier, Fluke 332A, Gen Res 4107 KVD, 4107D KVD, Fluke 731B X2 (calibrated), Fluke 5450A (calibrated)
 

Offline chuckb

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2017, 07:29:57 pm »
I have seen the long-term data for a bank of 732Bs at a primary lab. 0.03 ppm / month is what a good 732B looks like at that lab.
[/quote]

Do you know if the 0.03ppm / month drift was the actual drift rate or the uncertainty of the predicted drift rate?
 

Offline Awesome14

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2017, 11:46:22 pm »
NBS, now NIST, has a paper: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-2c2d0649085cc34834a8f42deaad328e/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-2c2d0649085cc34834a8f42deaad328e.pdf

At the very end in conclusions it mentions 10V can be transferred between labs with an accuracy of 0.08 ppm using zener standards. But it's from 1987. So, there may have been improvements. Fluke Calibration has a paper: http://download.flukecal.com/pub/literature/1260304D_734A_732B_Fract_Trace_AN_w.pdf

that makes claims superior to the NIST paper. But these are all based on characterization, not actual drift.
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Offline VintageNut

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 02:48:51 pm »
I have seen the long-term data for a bank of 732Bs at a primary lab. 0.03 ppm / month is what a good 732B looks like at that lab.

Do you know if the 0.03ppm / month drift was the actual drift rate or the uncertainty of the predicted drift rate?
[/quote]

Actual. They have their bank of qty 4 732Bs calibrated every year. They have all of the calibration history plotted as a long-term trend. The drift of one 732B in particular is about 0.36 ppm/year; very linear over a very long time.
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Offline PE1RQF

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2017, 02:12:37 pm »
Hereby a picture of the new 732C.
https://ibb.co/jGaOfR

Specification not known yet, but will include retrace/ hysteresis specifications.

 
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Online Echo88

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2018, 11:12:34 am »
Fluke will presumably present the Fluke 732C at the CPEM on 8-13.07.18:

http://www.cpem2018.com/newsletter/04/Newsletter_04_CPEM_2018.html

"We expect another excellent conference, where we hope to both share the research on our new products such as the Fluke 732C Zener reference standard, and to attend the presentations and poster sessions of other electrical metrologists from around the world."
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2018, 04:16:49 am »
Fluke released 732C/734C without any fuss.



Quote
The internal wire-wound-based resistors have been replaced by hermetic thin-film resistive networks, which are less prone to time- and temperatureinduced drift.

Not sure how I feel about this :)

They also give a glimpse on the guts. Good old Linear Technology LTFLU-1ACH on ceramic substrate with AD706 and OP07(?).
LTFLU chip manufactured in 2014 from date code, so I guess we can estimate when Fluke started testing for this project.  :-DMM



797933 hermetic film resistor network likely used to generate additional 0.1V range. It is not actively driven, as we can see from max current spec for this channel (20pA).



DC stability spec for 732C is same as 732B, as expected, but now 1V output have specified stability for 90 days / 1 year.
New 0.1V output specified for 1.2ppm/30d or 9.8ppm/1y and TC +/-0.2 uV/V.  Hysteresis specified at 0.25ppm, same as 732B.

Now calibration procedure also recommends Keithley 2182A instead of old Fluke 845AB.

And as with modern trend  :--, no details on service information or schematics in manuals. I bet 734C box needed lot of development work to get that logo badge changed to new fancy yellow  ;D.

Anybody getting DEMO unit?  >:D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 04:36:04 am by TiN »
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Offline quarks

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2018, 04:55:08 am »
Fluke 732C with 1V and 0.1V and one year stability up to 9.8ppm, I wonder how this should be of any use for anyone with a 5720/5730 calibrator.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 05:00:06 am by quarks »
 

Offline dl1640

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2018, 10:40:06 am »
I heard they will release new 8.5digit meter in the end of this year, with faster speed to beat 3458.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2018, 11:24:50 am »
Fluke released 732C/734C without any fuss.

May be now, we see a price drop of the 732A and 732B and they become affordable again.

How much is a 732C or 734C?
Anyone know?
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Offline e61_phil

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2018, 12:25:43 pm »
Now calibration procedure also recommends Keithley 2182A instead of old Fluke 845AB.

Does anyone know why? I thought the main feature of a good null meter is very low leakage/good isolation. Is the 2182 special in this case or is it because it has very high resolution (100pV afaik) and Fluke and Keithley are now within the same company?

Should I use my Keithley 182 instead of my Fluke 845?
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2018, 01:16:03 pm »
May be now, we see a price drop of the 732A and 732B and they become affordable again.

How much is a 732C or 734C?
Anyone know?

I could see a few upgrading their 732As, but I doubt many will upgrade their Bs, eBay pricing will likely not change much, but here to hoping!!

However, if say Keithley released a K8510, that was a true competitor to the 3458A, then I could see tons of those showing up.

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2018, 03:02:01 pm »
I see zero point for owners of _proven_ and _characterized aged_ 732 units , does not matter A or B-version to start selling them in favour of new refaced C.
Like quarks mentioned, benefit of having 0.1V likely overrated, any serious lab already have 752A for that  :). It would make sense only for new customers and new labs to get C ref.
Metrology DC references market is not like fruitty phone, it takes years and years to get new product proven, even if it's a game changer, like 3458A or 57xx series were 4 decades ago.
I'm sure 3458's legacy will live, and slapping fancy TFT display wouldn't make up for ADC linearity ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 03:03:53 pm by TiN »
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2018, 03:31:42 pm »
Once new models are available, here are a few reasons some minor upgrades will happen:

 - 30 year old equipment is perceived as a production risk, especially when downtime is measured in the $10k + minute range  (this has personally happened to me as an engineer)
 - 732A's physical size, production rack space is valuable, shipping cal costs.  Logistical people complaining to no technical manages do win fights.
 - A half width, 2U, blank face ethernet capable 3458A replacement would capture some interest.
 - Capital expense equipment refresh/cycle planning.

A bunch of the above will directly impact 3458A's, as they are used in production and not just metrology, where their history isn't even tracked.

Offline splin

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2018, 04:06:31 pm »
Annual stability:
10V    2ppm
1V      3ppm
.1V   9.8ppm

If they have a 10:1 (or 7.2:1) divider which has < 1ppm additional drift above the 10V output why would the 1V -> .1V divider be so much worse?
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2018, 04:28:10 pm »
Because 9.8ppm of 0.1V is 98 980 nanovolt. You sneeze on it and touch the connector, and those nanovolts will run like wild. Usually for this level special connectors are required, not just copper binding post, exposed to drafts.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 04:04:53 am by TiN »
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Offline fonograph

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2018, 06:00:38 pm »


What in bloody hell is that! Please tell me its not really a Fluke product,I would be so disappointed in my favorite T&M manufacturer.Did Fluke ever sold product with that level of build "quality"?
 

Offline fonograph

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2018, 06:05:17 pm »
I heard they will release new 8.5digit meter in the end of this year, with faster speed to beat 3458.

Where did you hear that? It may be possible,Transmille just released their 8100 series that competes with 8508a.
 

Online Echo88

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2018, 06:35:33 pm »
You are about a thousand years late to the party fonograph: The picture you posted is the soldering job of a voltage reference from a guy who is long banned here and who sells those DIY voltage references on ebay. Fluke isnt involved in this at all.

Faster 3458A, meh. Even better linearity, now that would be very impressive.
 
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Offline splin

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2018, 07:48:55 pm »
Because 9.8ppm of 0.1V is 98 nanovolt. You sneeze on it and touch the connector, and those nanovolts will run like wild. Usually for this level special connectors are required, not just copper binding post, exposed to drafts.


980nV not 98nV. Thermal EMFs at the connectors could be several uV but they are outside of Fluke's control - they surely will be additional uncertainty that has to be accounted for by the user.

I've just noticed that the output impedance of the .1V output is specced at <= 100R. Someone said it is unbuffered which suggests a 111R/999R divider. So part of the difference may be due to it being more difficult to achieve low ratio tracking ratio drift with these relatively low resistance values.

The dividers absolute resistance drift will be somewhat greater than the tracking drift and its not inceivable that it could be as high as say 50ppm whilst keeping ratio drift at less than, say,  2ppm. A 50ppm change in divider current running through a 200m ohm connection/trace resistance difference between the top and bottom connections to the divider would create another 1ppm change in output.

It would be a bit of a stretch to increase those numbers much further though - a Vishay MORN thin film divider with 1ppm tracking TCR has a 100ppm absolute and 20ppm ratio 1 year shelf life stabilty specification and I would expect Fluke to do rather better unless they don't place much importance on the .1V output. So 9.8ppm stills seems rather a lot to to me. I can't see internal temperature changes could account for .5uV or so of thermal EMF *drift*.
 
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Offline dl1640

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Re: Fluke 732C
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2018, 12:06:50 am »
I heard they will release new 8.5digit meter in the end of this year, with faster speed to beat 3458.

Where did you hear that? It may be possible,Transmille just released their 8100 series that competes with 8508a.

From a local Fluke rep.
I have one 3458 at work, they came and promote me their 8508 to measure current upto 20A, but i really dont care about this feature, then they said a faster meter will come...
 
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