Author Topic: Is the quest of replicating a Datron 470x calibrator totally foolish or crazy ?  (Read 20716 times)

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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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In a simplified version the R_on correction and thus linearity improvement Fluke is using in the 5700 is about in the way shown in the attached drawing. I hope I got the resistor rations right. The main idea is that essentially all the current is coming from the lower PWM switch with the higher voltage and the upper switch is only correcting small errors. This way the current through the upper switch is very small and thus the on resistance much less important.  In the form shown the lower switch has a differential voltage that is 1.5 times higher than the original reference.

The filter in only simplified with a simple switch. The main buffer should likely be an AZ type, possibly with an extra driver and sense. It might also need an extra buffer for the dividers - but this depends on the rest of the circuit.

With modern µCs I would not use galvanic insulation for the PWM signal, but get the PWM signal directly from an µC (e.g. AVR or similar 8 Bit) and only send control values via UART and opto-coupler. The modern µCs tend to cause not much more noise / spikes than  sychronising flip-flops needed if the PWM signal is send via pulse transformer or similar.

Wow, this design it's really compatible with the Datron extravaganza ?!?!?!
This is crazy !!!
Before I'm looking closely into it, I'm asking some naive questions first:

1) The output voltage it's strictly depending of the 1/0 ratio of the PWM pulse ?

2) Where does the ferocious Bessel or similar filter go ?

3) What it will be the base frequency of the PWM pulse ?

4) What else needs to be done to make it a usable design for a mini-calibrator and replace the Datron design, I'm more than willing to invest some time and materials to produce some prototypes ?

I'm looking to some low power uC to generate a high resolution pwm ab sofort !!!

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Online Andreas

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1) The output voltage it's strictly depending of the 1/0 ratio of the PWM pulse ?


3) What it will be the base frequency of the PWM pulse ?


I'm looking to some low power uC to generate a high resolution pwm ab sofort !!!


1) no, depends on switch resistance over voltage and on/off time difference.

3) I would go for a multiple of mains frequency. (or 244 Hz will also be a good start for 50 + 60 Hz simultaneous).

I would use either PIC24FV32KA302/304 or ATMega1284.

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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1) The output voltage it's strictly depending of the 1/0 ratio of the PWM pulse ?


3) What it will be the base frequency of the PWM pulse ?


I'm looking to some low power uC to generate a high resolution pwm ab sofort !!!


1) no, depends on switch resistance over voltage and on/off time difference.

3) I would go for a multiple of mains frequency. (or 244 Hz will also be a good start for 50 + 60 Hz simultaneous).

I would use either PIC24FV32KA302/304 or ATMega1284.

with best regards

Andreas

 How is the switch resistance variation with the temperature compensated, Keinstein was mentioning that there is a switch resistance compensation but I cant't see it, dumm Kopf me :( ?

 DC1MC
 

Online Andreas

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Hello,

In branadics cirquit it is R71 + R19 (carefully adjusted to the switch used).
In EDN cirquit it is the 5R resistor at the same place.
But of course that works only for exactly one temperature.

If you have a processor you could also do compensation in software.
(but you have a hen and egg problem).

For switch linearity (without adjusted compensation) see also here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/7-5digit-diy-voltmeter/msg1400157/#msg1400157

with best regards

Andreas
 

Online Kleinstein

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The Circuit based on the EDN idea, that brandic showed needs those resistors to adjust for the ON resistance of the switch. This can work over a limited temperature range.

The circuit I showed is a simplified version to show how the Ron compensation in the Fluke 5700 works. Here the one capacitor shown would be replaced with the filter circuit (e.g. 3 OPs + quite some large caps), like in the Datron 4910 or Fluke.  The circuit is still missing the reference and reference buffer. 

The rather complicated JFET switching part is replaced with the DG419 - at the time the Datron4910 was designed the choice of CMOS switch chips was still rather limited. I don't see a reason the DG419 would be much inferior, especially with R_on compensation. There might be even advantages from less charge pulse during switching.

The output voltage would depend linear on the 1/0 ratio, but there still would still be an offset, e.g. due to leakage current and charge injection from the switches.  There can also be some limitations at the extremes.  So its really linear only from some 2-98 %. So to get close to zero one would need to add an offset (e.g. 5%) and have a zero detection circuit for the output. The output range would than be some -3% to 93% of the reference voltage.

The circuit I showed is also only the coarse part - so it takes some small additions to get the lower 8-10 Bits.

The Ron compensation depends on the resistor ratios. Normally something like a 100 times error reduction sound plausible. With some adjustment one might get an even better improvement.

The PWM frequency is a compromise between settling and filter caps that prefer a higher frequency and switching errors, offsets that would be smaller with lower frequency. So some 100-500 Hz is likely a good compromise. The main part to change would be the capacitors. These can be quite large, as for best performance some should be PP caps with quite some capacitance. There might be a chance that PPS type caps could also work, but the data I have found so far are confusing: some show very good DA performance (even better than PP) and some show poor performance (more like Pet).

For just PWM generation (analog side) a small µC like PIC16 or Mega88 or even a 8-14 Pin version  should be well sufficient.  The control of the rest (PC interface side) would be a different thing. Here it would take more memory etc.
 

Offline Pipelie

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I have replicated the Datron 4910 and success at a couple months ago.

I only use the concept of Datron 4910, the digital section is replaced by a CPLD and change the JFETs to the CMOS Analog switch, filter remained the same without JFET. the output stage is similar.

I'm also building a PWM DAC that can source +/- 10V, the circuit is base on Datron 4000 and combines with the idea of ACAL from fluke 5440. it's working now, but I'm still having problems that related to the ACAL function. :palm:

 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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@Pipelle - Very interesting project, could you share (some of) the schematic with us ?

 Many thanks,
 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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The plan for the PWM DAC I showed earlier here has a mistake with the voltages for the lower switch. The corrected version is not that much different, even slightly simpler.  One might want to adjust the resistors shown as 5 K a little, a slightly higher value to first order compensate for the R_on of the lower switch.  The resistors could also be higher value.

The place where the capacitor is shown, there should be a filter section like Fluke, / Datron use them.
 
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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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The plan for the PWM DAC I showed earlier here has a mistake with the voltages for the lower switch. The corrected version is not that much different, even slightly simpler.  One might want to adjust the resistors shown as 5 K a little, a slightly higher value to first order compensate for the R_on of the lower switch.  The resistors could also be higher value.

The place where the capacitor is shown, there should be a filter section like Fluke, / Datron use them.

Thanks for the refinement of the schematic and sorry for the naive questions, but:
Assuming that the 12V on the schematic it's the actual Vref, and the upper switch switches from from Vref to Zero, the small negative offset to be added is onstead of  the GNDA part of the upper switch or on the not yet described fine tuner part ?
The 7-pole Bessel filter from the Datron could be used here as well, or should I implement the Fluke specific one ?
Finally, an interesting project, it prompted me to start sorting and start adding what parts I have into the PartKeepr stock management program, very nice application, too bad it was abandoned, but is extraordinary useful as it is. If out of this comes the organizing of my stuff, and is good.
If the schematic presented here stabilizes, I'll order the precision OP and the CMOS switches, I have some 1% metal resistors around the values shown to sort from, so next WE I should be able to do the first tests, finally finding some use for the FeelTech 6600 AWG as an initial PWM generator, so I need to fix its power supply, output OP and other stuff that was idling and of the recapped Datron 1082 as a reference voltmeter.  :box:

But if out of this crowdsourcing comes out a (relatively) simple, cheap and reproducible reference divider, that, depending of the parts used, can go from adjustable power supply to calibrator grade divider, I will consider it the achievement of 2018 and you'll be one of the people to thank.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 

Offline TiN

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I wish all the best to TC on this huge project. I had similar ideas and bought many parts for such a project some years ago (you still can find shameless thread at EEVBlog about it), but gave up on this and build Fluke 5720 from scrap dead parts (all PCBAs are originals, though, just some missing chassis parts are DIY).
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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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I wish all the best to TC on this huge project. I had similar ideas and bought many parts for such a project some years ago (you still can find shameless thread at EEVBlog about it), but gave up on this and build Fluke 5720 from scrap dead parts (all PCBAs are originals, though, just some missing chassis parts are DIY).

We are talking here of a different level, at least financially speaking ;), but your expertise is anytime welcome.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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The offset to add would be a negative offset. This could be either a shift in the negative side of the reference, or just adding a negative current through a high resistor to before the filter "cap". The fine DAC part could also be added that way, possibly together.  The fine DAC part often is also a PWM circuit, but could in principle also be just a 12 Bit ready made DAC chip. The resolution would normally be split in a way to get some 16 bits from the coarse PWM DAC part shown so far and than some 8-12 extra bits from the fine DAC. For adjustment of the fine to coarse scale it might help of the fine part could help if the fine DAC could cover a little more than 2 coarse steps, maybe 4 steps. As the filter is already there, the obvious way is to use PWM for the fine part too.

With the offset added, the DAC would cover a voltage range of something like -100 mV to maybe - 12 V (with a 14 V reference Level).
Due to the higher voltage at the correcting switch it would get tricky to get a much higher reference level - some 20 V might still just work.
I have not seen it in the Fluke / Datron schematics, but It might help to have some feedback path at around zero output to adjust the Zero setting. This would be something like an AZ OP with quite some gain (e.g. 100-1000 times) going to an ADC (could even be the µC internal one). This could also help to bring the fine an coarse scale together, kind of a build in null meter.

PWM from the generator would be only for a very crude test, to check for ripple.

The 2 resistors at the switches should better be relatively low TC, as transient self heating could have an linearity effect.  So I would consider here something like 15-25 ppm/K thin film resistors (not too tiny form factor), that usually come in 0.1 % tolerance. They are still not that expensive. The resistor would also need to be rather stable as it sets the part from the fine DAC.

The Filter part of the Fluke and Datron circuit is rather similar, and both should work. Here it might need at least 2 relatively bulky and possibly expensive high capacity (e.g. 1 µF)  PP-film caps. So one might be tempted to use a PWM frequency that is not too low as this would allow for smaller caps. Chances are one could get away with MKS type for the other caps in the filter, if one accepts a little longer settling time.
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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@Kleinstein, so to summarize:

- 1 Coarse 16-bit PWM setter to split the Vref in 64K coarse parts.
- 1 Fine 8(16)-bit PWM setter to cover just -/+2 coarse divisions on full range (how to implement it analogically, the Datron uses for the fine part another precision divider of the reference, can we use something else ?!?! )
- 1 Zero amplifier with some AZ (what is this, sorry for not knowing it) OP with an arbitrary, but stable, amplification factor, going to either uC DAC or some kind of zero detector comparator going to an gpio pin.
- 1 SPI 12bit DAC like Maxim 4921 (suggestions welcome) mounted on the negative rail to inject some zero compensation, during signaled idle time  or  when the output is set to zero/calibration requested, it should do some calibration to cancel the drift caused by temperature, charge injection, whatever.

 Is my Zusammenfassung  ;D correct ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 

Offline Echo88

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I thought about using a High Resolution PWM-Generator when i wanted to avoid the 2. precision divider for the lower voltage resolution part a few years ago.
This post shows a few ways to do this without resorting to GHz-clocks to produce the PWM: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/386557
I dont know anymore if any of the proposed solutions like the PICOLLO-series or the STM32F334 is cabale of the necessary resolution at about 190Hz (5700A-DAC PWM Frequency AFAIR).
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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I thought about using a High Resolution PWM-Generator when i wanted to avoid the 2. precision divider for the lower voltage resolution part a few years ago.
This post shows a few ways to do this without resorting to GHz-clocks to produce the PWM: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/386557
I dont know anymore if any of the proposed solutions like the PICOLLO-series or the STM32F334 is capable of the necessary resolution at about 190Hz (5700A-DAC PWM Frequency AFAIR).

Using just one PWM channel for the full resolution it very enticing indeed, and I think MC56F8455X can actually do it, while having even a nice ADC and other useful goodies, the price: 6,70EUR at Mouser for the 48pin variant that is still solderable.

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/MC56F8455X.pdf

Are there any downsides of this one high precision PWM solution, I don't know, like the analogue switches switching time, and so on ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Offline branadic

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The suggested PIC24FV32KA302/304 or ATMega1284 do have multiple 16bit PWMs, which are appropriate for the task of a PWM controlled voltage divider.

http://bbs.38hot.net/thread-15839-1-1.html reflects the theory behind it.

A little bit of search on www.mikrocontroller.net turns out all the knowledge that went into the EDN 32bit PWM DAC modified by Andreas (2 bit of overlapp so a total of 30bit). https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/148472#2309830

-branadic-

Edit: Another approach to consider is PWM modulation. This approach is used in the "LM399 PWM DAC reference" based on the "ION" MickleT. presented here as a representitive of the russian forum (radiokot.ru). The original design comes from adver, but sources can be found on Sergei's google drive.
You can find the source code for two versions:
- 8bit + 14bit fractional
- 8bit + 16bit fractional
and lot's of pictures.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 02:29:02 pm by branadic »
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Online Kleinstein

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To add the fine ADC there are 2 options. One is using precision resistors,  the one already at the DAC and another to add the fine part. With some 0.1% accuracy one could get some 8 bit accuracy for the fine part. So the fine part could offer an extra 8 Bit (maybe 9 or 10 at best ) bit resolution. Here it would not even need overlap. The divider only needs to be accurate to the full scale of the fine DAC, not to the full resolution.
The resistors need to be good quality, but no absolute need for a extra precision divider.
Especially with a little more resolution from the coarse part and less from the fine part, the resistors get less critical. Modern µCs can be a bit faster than the old days discrete logic and thus get a slightly high PWM base clock.

The alternative might be to not assume an accurate resistor ratio, but do a kind of internal cal cycle. In this case one would need some overlap, so that the fine ADC would cover some +-2 coarse steps. For the adjustment one would use different combinations to get the zero. From the measured near zero cases one would get a high resolution (e.g. 0.01% range) for the scale ratio between the coarse and fine steps. For the adjustment it helps to have a few overlapping steps, as one would get the fine steps corresponding to some 2,3 or 4 coarse steps and thus some extra resolution. I would expect the adjustment only to be needed rather infrequently, so it does not matter if it takes quite some times.

However the step ratio would likely not be a nice integer ratio like 1 coarse step corresponds to 1024 fine steps, but an arbitray number like 5123.6 fine steps to a coarse one. So when setting a DAC value, there will be rounding errors, though very small. When setting a fixed voltage, one would have that rounding problem anyway, as the steps would not correspond exactly µVs. With the measured ratio it is two scales with some odd size (e.g. 120.6 µV and 0.068 µV). The rounding problem is similar, maybe slight less as the steps can be smaller.

For the offset, I dont think that one would need an analog adjustment. It would be more like a rather crude but fixed offset to make sure one can reach the zero and a little below. The exact numerical zero reading would be corrected numerically by adding to the DAC setting.
A ready made DAC chip like the MCP4921 could in theory be an alternative to a PWM DAC for the fine part. But with the filter already there PWM is easy for the fine part and 12 Bit is easy, even if a simple circuit. In the old days one might have used an DAC to change the fine scale setting to get exactly 1024 fine steps to a coarse step, but today I would prefer the numerical way.

To speed the adjustment procedure and maybe add some resolution it helps if the zero detection it not just a comparator, but a high gain amplifier and an ADC, even if only some 8 bit. So the µC internal ADC should be good enough. It's a little like a Null-meter - low gain accuracy, but high amplification, low noise to detect even small deviations.

A single super high resolution PWM channel is possible too and simplifies the math. The delays from switching are not a special problem here - these only limit the use of the very extreme ends (like < 0.1% or > 99.8%), but this also applies to lower resolution. The coarse DAC needs to be precise to the full resolution anyway, so the demands are the same. There are 2 small downsides to those high clocked µCs: one is they tend to use a PLL clock an this can produce extra jitter that might be visible as extra noise. The other is that those higher speed µCs tend to produce more EMI problems, that might end up as extra offsets / noise somewhere. To avoid interactions, e.g. via ground currents the µC creating the PWM should  not do much else during use.  So even using the ADCs might already be too much.
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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The two PWM generators solution is understood (and most likely will be used in the design that I want to implement), I was just being curious about a hypothetical high resolution PWM channel, if it can be used at least theoretically or are other factors that forces the use of two channels. There are a lot of ns in 100Hz, if one can make a precise PWM signal, will it be OK ?

@Kleinstein: for the practical implementation, I was thinking of these capacitors for the filter, are they OK, (the guy has a lot of parts that may be used) ?
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/10x-ero-mkt-1825-kondensator-1-f-10-100-v-rm-15/979765578-172-18783

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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In the filter at least the first 2 capacitors towards the signal should be polypropylene. The caps from the link are MKH type and thus not really suitable here, because of high dielectric absorption and thus sluggish settling. They might be still good for the later stages. The PP caps would be something like Wima MKP4 or MKP10 series.  To my surprise one can get them for about $0,50 to $1. Still they are large, e.g. 7x16.5x27 mm³
So not too bad, but still large.

The single super high resolution PWM is possible - not just hypothetical. Some of the ARM based (and comparable) µCs offer some PWM with additional delay stages to get a time resolution of a few 100 ps. Thus 24 Bit resolution at still more than 100 Hz. One can also push the resolution a little (e.g. 1-3 extra bits) by using additional sigma delta like modulation.  The main possible problem here is jitter from the PLL clock. The specs I found so far did not tell how much jitter over longer (e.g. ms scale) time. Chances are it can work, but the 2 PWM solution with a 8 Bit µC might offer slightly lower noise.
 

Online Andreas

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Hello,

Why using MKT (polyester) when you can have polypropylene for nearly the same price

https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/kemet/PHE426HB7100JR06/399-5960-ND/2704614

with best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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@Kleinstein - OK then, no more of the DSP/MCU combo with high-res PWM, 2xPWM will be used, was anyway more of a FMI question.
Now, what is an AZ OpAmp (examples will be nice, really curious, this thread has awaken some stuff that I thought to be lost in the Lethe) ?
I'm now the proud owner of 40 PRÄZISIONS WIDERSTAND 10K / 0.01% CAR5Y-10KLI from WELWYN, because Vishay won't send me any vacuumed foil samples :(, so if we can keep the needed resistors as combinations of series parallel of these ones, this will keep the costs of the prototype in check.

- In the end, what is the consensus, how do we fit the two PWM together ?
- The zero thing I believe you've said to be something like a small fixed negative thingie, connected where, coarse switch ground ?
- The OP used are OP07, are the the most price-performance suitable devices ?
- To minimize the zero ADC should I get some i2c/spi device and isolate it form the MCU and then eventually use some dreaded optos and fully isolate it ?

@Andreas - My link was for 10pcs !!!, but if the polypropylene guys are so much better, so be it, the price difference it's not that big.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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So, here's the Datron implementation of their 7-pole Bessel filter @125Hz, any ideas how recalculate for the  suggested 1uF caps, and what shold be used for the OP, if possible without those weird JFETs.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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The polyester caps are still considerably smaller (e.g. something like a factor of 5-10) and cheaper at low voltage:
The low cost PP can be at around 0,5 EUR, while the cheap MKS is more like 0,2 EUR.
The ebay link is for a pack of 10 - still why buy from an obscure source when you pay not much more from the normal parts source, where you get the other parts anyway.

The Datron 4910 filter uses 7 caps of 1 µF - so thus can get a bit bulky with all PP, but still not too bad.
The Fluke 5700 filter uses only 5 large caps, but 3 of them are 66 µF - this will get large in PP.

I have not found design formulas for this type of filter. It's quite an interesting circuit, but could not find it's name.
So it would be a question of simulation and try and error to change more than just the frequency.
Currently I would more prefer the Datron circuit with smaller caps and JFET OPs instead of the discrete JFETs+OP.


An AZ-OP is an auto zero or chopper stabilized OP. This could be something like an ADA4522 or AD8551 (with bootstrapped supply). Such an OP should also be used for the main buffer.

The 2 OPs to drive the correcting switch could be OP07 or maybe OPA172. Here it depends a little how the circuit continues to the right, as there may be an extra power stage and external sense inputs.

Connecting the PWM signal could be with 2 resistor to the input of the filter. One from the coarse PWM and one larger (e.g. 5 M or a little more) from the the offset and fine PWM combined (with extra resistors).  The 5 M resistor to bring in the fine PWM might be slightly tricky, as large resistors tend to be less stable. So one would still use some kind of divider to reduce the voltage of the fine PWM first. The 100 K resistance was only a crude first assumption, a slightly lower value might be better.

The high quality 10 K resistors would be more something for an extra divider, not directly related to the DAC. A few could also be used for Ohms or current reference if needed. 2 of these could be used for an initial gain of 2 before the PWM part. This depends one reference planed to use. With LM399 or 1N829 I would more consider 2 references in series to start with.

For the resistors I would consider something like 15 or 25 ppm/K thin film ones, maybe using 2 in series for the critical resistor. These should be good enough here. The high value resistor for the fine PWM could be a few in series if needed.
I think I would prefer the measured ratio way over a precisely set ratio, especially with the high resistor value that is often less accurate.

The Datron filter does not need to use those discrete FETs - there are now JFET based OPs with better performance. Something like OPA172, OPA134 or at the high end OPA140 would be good.
 
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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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I have a number of new and original TL072CP and TL074CN, cold they be used in any of the design parts, or should I ignore them and refill with better OP ?

 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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A very low cost version would be rather unusual. I don't think it makes sense to really go down so far as using TL072 or similar. They might be still ok for the OPs for the on resistance compensation.

For the filter I would prefer lower noise OPs like OPA172 or TLV171 at least. One might get away with one OP less.
The output buffer should still be an AZ OP - about the lowest cost is MCP6V27 or similar. It would need supply bootstrapping because of the low maximum supply voltage.

The zero detection could be the same type MCP6V27.
If really needed one might get away with 74HC4053 switches at 7 V and with modified resistor values to limit the voltage.

So it is possible to build a low cost version, but there are limits where it does not very much sense.
Normally such a circuit would be more in the no expense spared category. For a hobby build single sample there is not much sense in looking for the lowest cost parts - one does not need to use $20 resistors, but should not discuss much about a few $1 OPs.
Getting down to the cents is something if build is large numbers.
 


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