Author Topic: Is the quest of replicating a Datron 470x calibrator totally foolish or crazy ?  (Read 20672 times)

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Offline Echo88

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Indeed, too really get the specs of such a circuit one needs to use suiting OPs with good specs. I dont think bootstrapping low voltage AZ-OP Amps is the suitable way in this particular case and would like to propose the OPA189 or the ADA4522.
If youre (or anyone else) ordering the OPA189, i would also want to take a few. Dont want to buy at Mouser/Digikey just to test those, but they look mighty fine spec-wise.  ;D
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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@Kleinstein Sorry, I was not formulating correctly my previous message, I don't want to go to counting cents, is that I've already got the TL072/074.

So, to summarize again:
Ripple filter: OPA172,
Output buffer: ADA4522 or AD8551
Switch compensation: also OPA172, OP7 or... ?
What about LTC1151CSW from Andreas design ?


Big switch selection (I will order them): DG419 or MAX4053A or...

I'm now in a selection block, I would like to place an order for the OP and the capacitors, I'll go with 3 sets of 10: 0.22, 0.47 and 1uF, to be able to mix and match the filter.

Whatever you gentlemen are choosing will be ordered tomorrow, no it's too late, I want to sleep on it a bit.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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Indeed, too really get the specs of such a circuit one needs to use suiting OPs with good specs. I dont think bootstrapping low voltage AZ-OP Amps is the suitable way in this particular case and would like to propose the OPA189 or the ADA4522.
If youre (or anyone else) ordering the OPA189, i would also want to take a few. Dont want to buy at Mouser/Digikey just to test those, but they look mighty fine spec-wise.  ;D

I would sooo much want to finish the BOM, let's do the draft, and of course if any of you gentlemen would like to play with some OP or other parts, it will be my pleasure to add them to my order.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Offline branadic

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I suggest drawing some schematic first to finalize the BOM needed. Next step would be to layout some board. A board is then ordered very quick at low cost on Elecrow (10x boards of size 10x10cm² for $4,90 plus shipping).
An almost final schematic makes discussion easier and I'm sure there will be some combatants following the project by parts and by boards.

-branadic-
Computers exist to solve problems that we wouldn't have without them. AI exists to answer questions, we wouldn't ask without it.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Before selecting the OPs, one would need to make clear which reference to use, especially the voltage level.
The MAX4053 is only low voltage, even with only a 7 V reference one could reach the limits.

The Fluke 5700 uses a AZ-OP with bootstrapped supply. So this is not such an unusual solution. The choice of higher voltage (e.g. > 10 V) AZ OPs is not that large. The main contenders are  ADA4522, OPA189/188 ?, LTC2057 and some old LT1050 and similar.
The first 3 are low noise, but also high bias. Especially at the low cost level the AZ OPs are 5 V supply.
Not every supplier can deliver each type - so the final choice also depends on the source.
My low cost choice for an AZ OP would be the MCP6V27, which would need bootstrapping the supply for the buffer.

For the other OPs one should know the circuit first. And the same board could be used for low cost or good quality as well.

The output should likely have a kind of power stage and separate sense lines. At the negative side this might need quite some effort. This might mean moving the negative side of the reference circuit. So it might make sense to include the reference circuit too.
If a 7 V only reference is used, one might have to add a gain stage somewhere to get at least 10 V. One might get a circuit that could use either amplification or 2 refs in series.


 

Offline Echo88

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I meant that the circuit of course can benefit from bootstrapped OPs, but that this feature in this case unnecessarily complicates the design which DC1MC tries to realize, while similar high spec OP-Amps like the ADA4522/OPA189 with suitably high supply voltage are available.

 

Online Kleinstein

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The part looked at so far is mainly the PWM DAC and thus the DC-voltage part of a calibrator.  The AC part is likely a completely different and quite difficult part. For the DC part, one might include something to also alow some current calibration.s

I don't think this would be like a lab supply that turns over from voltage control to current control, but more like 2 separate modes and a crude current limit for protection. At least for the higher currents, it might be relatively easy to add the current mode:  This could be a series of shunt resistors and a switch to change over the feedback from the "Buffer" to get a kind of constant current source. To be on the safe side it may need some protection to at least protect the shunts as long as the internal current source is used.

Depending on the current ranges, it might need a slightly more powerful output stage, maybe up to a little over 1A or at least 100 mA. For 1 A one might consider to have this only at low voltage (e.g. 6 V) to limit the power dissipation.

The other point could be the maximum voltage: the DG419 switches and many other CMOS ones are working well up to a little over 30 V supply. The second switch used for the compensation sees twice the reference voltage as the swing  (could be reduces to 1.5 times with a bootstrapped supply and maybe 1.2 times with different resistor values). So a 14 V reference (like two LM399 in series) would be about the maximum for a 30 V supply ( actually more like -8 V and +22 V, maybe -10 V and + 24 V with 34 V to the chip).
Higher output voltage would need some kind of amplification (like in the Fluke 5700). When using a higher supply AZ-OP like ADA4522 this would not be that difficult. The use of a low voltage OP with bootstrapped supply is what makes the 5700 circuit quite complicated. With gain (e.g. 2 times) active the accuracy would be lower, but would extend the voltage range to some 22 V.
For the polarity I would guess the DAC could be positive only and turn over just at the outputs if needed.

The DG419 looks like a reasonable good choice with some 20-30 Ohms at 30 V supply and some 20-50 ns dead time.  So I don't think we would need to look for a better one here.
 

Offline alm

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Does it make sense to go through the trouble of using an extremely linear DAC for current sourcing? Wouldn't the quality of the shunt resistors limit linearity? Would a traditional transconductance amplifier perform much worse?

Online Kleinstein

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It's true that the shunts can limit the current linearity. I don't see how a trans-conductance amplifier would make things better in this aspect. I know TIAs mainly for measuring small currents, like below 1 mA, where self heating is less of a problem. Self heating would be the same or worse with an TIA.

The point with the current source part would be that it would be relatively low extra effort. The main part would be the shunts and an output stage that can deliver more than a few mA. I think it would at least make sense to include it as an option in the discussion.

The higher current shunts would be used with a low voltage and thus only some 0.1 - 2 % of full scale of the DAC anyway. So accuracy would not be that great from the DAC side anyway. The smaller currents, like 1 mA might not be that bad, if the resistors are good.  For the small currents self heating is much less of a problem and one can even use a higher voltage, like 1 V.

Especially if build without an amplified output, one might be able to use the sense inputs in an unconventional way and than use an external 4 wire shunt. The DUT (e.g. DMM to measure the current) would than be between the high side drive and one side of the external shunt, and the sense inputs go to the sense lines of the external shunt. So it may not need to be part of the circuit, maybe just consider that case when designing the protection at the sense input(s).

As the filter takes quite some time to settle, does it make sense to have some kind of output disable ?  So the filter could settle with the output still off.
 

Offline alm

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I don't expect a TIA to perform any better, but it might be simpler than adding even more switching to the DAC, and more as a separate module, simplifying design even further. In the past they were even separate instruments that would be connected to a voltage source (AC or DC). Another advantage would be that the same amplifier could be used for ACI.

If it can be simply added to the DAC circuit, then sure.

I think an output disable makes sense. I wouldn't want a calibrator output some any signal that is outside the specified tolerance.

Offline Echo88

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Thinking about the ADA4522 and the OPA189 i made a spreadsheet to compare their parameters which are critical for DC-applications.
The duo/quard-versions werent considered in the spreadsheet, since their specs arent as good as the single-amp-packages. Also they increase they chip-temperature.

Questions:
It would be nice if someone could explain why the PSRR/CMRR/Avol-diagrams arent showing the typical/maximum-parameters, which are listed in the Specifications.
Also the Bias/Offsetcurrent-Histograms in the OPA189 are way better than the listed typical/max-specs?
I assume that the varying Offsetvoltage vs. Common-Mode-Voltage in the OPA189 is a separate effect to the normal Common-Mode-Rejection?

The ADA4522 looks quite good compared to the OPA189, which i favourited at first, especially since it doesnt show the varying Offsetvoltage vs. Common-Mode-Voltage.

Thoughts/Opinions/Did i state something wrong?  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 03:19:01 pm by Echo88 »
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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I thank you all for the effor, needles to say that I'm getting more and more confused  |O, but hopefully we'll have a schematic/BOM by Saturday for Digikey.
Also getting requests from Germany if someone needs parts on this order, please PM let me know.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Online Kleinstein

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I don't see any so special parts that would need an order from the US (e.g. digikey): the ADA4522 would also be available from Farnel/HBE or Arrow in Europe. The other parts are even more common.

@echo88:
The DC CMRR is essentially the same as an offset voltage that depends on the common mode voltage.
The diagram may be from a few samples tested in detail. These are sometimes slightly better than typical grade ones.
At the very high level the CMRR and PSRR values could also be limited by the measurement system.

I don't think this circuit would need the absolute highers performance amplifiers. The voltage is still relatively high (e.g. usually > 100 mV) and there are other sources of noise (especially the resistors) and drift (e.g. from leakage)

The circuit may not even need a 2 nd high supply voltage AZ OP,  as the main buffer / amplifier behind the filter. The amplifier for the Zero adjust could use an amplifier with 5 V supply (this would help with an lower cost ADC like the µC internal or maybe an MCP3421). One may not even need an AZ OP here, if one has some MUX before the input to select the point to test and include a zero here. At least the zero check signal would be low impedance, so no need for a high impedance source.
Anyway the exact choice of OPs is not yet the important point - they can be changed even with a ready made board. It's only the question if something like a bootstrapped supply is needed. Given that the ADA4522 is not that expensive I would keep the circuit simple and use an OP with high supply range. This would be especially an advantage if the output would be with gain. I would consider an gain option worth to include.

The relatively high bias should not be a big problem for the buffer after the filter, as the impedance is constant and there would be an zero adjustment anyway. AFAIK the AZ OPs have quite some input current, but this current is rather constant.

So far the circuit I have in mind would start with 2x1N829A in series, so that the PWM DAC would give some -0.2 V to +11 or 12 V. The output amplifier (e.g. with ADA4522) would be switchable between gain 1 and about 2. The maximum output could be something like up to 24 V and maybe 100 mA, possibly also 1 A up to some 5 V.  An extra, crude hardware voltage limit would probably be a good idea. The output would be the usual 4 wire output with extra sense inputs. To keep the circuit simple, the sense input may not be very high impedance though, especially the low side sense.

With an extra 4 wire resistor one could also use this as a current source, e.g. for current up to some 100 mA or 1 A and down to maybe some 100 µA, depending on the resistors used. Precision for the current may not be that high, especially for the higher currents, as the DAC would operate at the low end. If the resistors would be internal, I would stay with manual switching to keep the circuit simple - the switch would be not critical. The tricky part could be some protection (shunts are potentially rather expensive).

The supply would likely need some mains transformer.  However the voltage needed are a little odd, like  -9 V, + 5 V, +15 V ?, + 22 V and maybe +28 V.
So it one might either have quite some loss at linear regulators or would need more than 2 secondary voltages.
Unless high current is needed, the total power should still be moderate (like < 10 W).

So far this could provide voltages up to about 22 V and down to maybe 100 mV with reasonable fine settings.

I don't yet have a good (simple) idea on how to allow an test of the output gain stage.  It could be done with a second amplifier made especially for adjustment. Instead of towards  0 V this would be against some 10 V. So it can be done, though not very elegant. The check/adjustment would be a fixed resistor divider against 10 V from the PWM-DAC in x1 mode and x 2 mode. This would also give a value to the 10 V resistive divider that might be used for an auxiliary output with possibly lower noise. The resistive divider does not need to be long term stable - so no super high grade resistors need, but likely still good ones.

At least for the beginning I would have the digital control via an isolated UART (likely with USB-uart bridge) to a PC. So that the display / keys would be a later step. The PC side would still need to do quite some controls / math. 
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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Some things, unfortunately my day job is extracting most of the energy out of me, but still:

- In the end, is there a type of OP that can be used in ALL stages of the project, I would really want to do the BOM by WE ?
- The 1N829 are bloody expensive: $18.01, the LM399AH are $13.45, can they be connected in series as well ?
- What else should I put on the order, in @branadic design I've seen this integrated rezistive divider, LT5400-x seem to be nice precision dividers, should  add a couple for testing, what values do you recommend (maybe the 1M ones for PWM injection).
- I'm doing a Digikey order because I want to also get a 50MHz TCXO for my FeelTech cadaver, and there is no  other place to order it, what other components, besides the 1uF polypropylene caps should be there ?


 Best regards,
 DC1MC

EDIT: The power supply needs to be asymmetric, like +30/-8V ?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 08:04:54 pm by DC1MC »
 

Offline splin

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Thinking about the ADA4522 and the OPA189 i made a spreadsheet to compare their parameters which are critical for DC-applications.

Questions:
It would be nice if someone could explain why the PSRR/CMRR/Avol-diagrams arent showing the typical/maximum-parameters, which are listed in the Specifications.

Odd isn't it. I asked AD the same question, but I don't think the answers were entirely satisfactory:

https://ez.analog.com/amplifiers/operational-amplifiers/f/q-a/16967/ada4522-cmrr-spec/143590

I accept that measuring AC CMRR is difficult above 80dB but other datasheets seem to be consistent. Perhaps 50dB reduction in CMRR from 0 to 10Hz is in fact perfectly reasonable and perhaps a characteristic of auto-zero amps? My problem being that I'm used to seeing CMRR graphs that start flat from DC a low frequency then start to roll off at some frequency which varies depending on the GBW.

So beware of diagrams and graphs in datasheets -  I've found many cases where they don't match the typical specs, are questionable or downright wrong.

[EDIT] Ok CMRR v frequency graphs don't actually start at DC.

Looking at the zero drift OPA2187; DC CMRR spec is 140dB. Figure 11 shows CMRR of 140dB flat from 1 Hz up to 4kHz, which is consistent. But presumably TI's graph extrapolates from CMRR measurements at DC and those at higher frequencies where the measurements aren't limited by the test setup.

So perhaps the AD4522 CMRR graph below 1kHz actually shows a 110dB measurement limit and not that of the amp in which case it shouldn't have been included in the datasheet. If it was the real amp CMRR, then at what point does the 160dB DC CMRR drop to only 110dB?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 04:26:59 pm by splin »
 

Offline splin

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So far the circuit I have in mind would start with 2x1N829A in series, so that the PWM DAC would give some -0.2 V to +11 or 12 V. T.

Why zeners? Those are very expensive by virtue of their rarity rather more than performance. They have a good TC but still need selecting for best performance and especially low noise. See my reply #835 on the LTZ thread.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ultra-precision-reference-ltz1000/msg614899/#msg614899
 

Offline splin

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- The 1N829 are bloody expensive: $18.01

They are from Digikey, but Farnell (UK) sell them for £5.46 ($7.04) one off. Same company, Newark want $7.03 in the US but only $4.04 from element14 APAC (Singapore) - don't know what the delivery costs would be though.

Allied Electronics and Automation (US) $5.33

Still not cheap for a zener though.


[EDIT] looks like element14 APAC don't deliver to Europe or the USA
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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Somehow related  >:D:
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/fluke-5700a-kalibrator-transkonduktiver-verstaerker-fluke-5220a/997008335-239-7973

If somebody has 5.5K EUR this couple of almost working devices are available in my town, we can even meet an have a beer  ;D

What about the asymetric OP supply, does anybody have some answers for my previuos stuff, andbody from DE want something on a shared buyfrom DIGIKE ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Offline Echo88

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Bargain, but sadly i dont have this kind of money.  :(
Id like 10x ADA4522-1 "ADA4522-1ARZ-ND" -> 25€ if possible. PM me for address/Paypal please, thank you.
There are quite a few schematics mentioned in this thread, im a bit lost which exactly do you want to replicate? Otherwise i cant give component-suggestions.
 

Online Kleinstein

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The 1N829 zeners seem to be rather variable in price. Depending on the source they can be considerably cheaper than LM399, but also more expensive. The advantage of the 1N829 zener is there possibly lower noise compared to an LM399, but it would take quite some effort to chose the right current to also get a low TC, at least over a limited temperature range (e.g. 20-30 C environment). The LM399 is more like simple to use, but not very low noise - still about standard for 6 digit DMMs. It's possible to have 2 LM399 in series too.

There is no one OP to fits all.

So the ADA4522 is good for the output buffer / amplifier.
For the filter circuit (2 or 3 OPs)  I would think about  OPA141, OPA134 or OPA172  depending on the required quality (mainly noise).
For the two OPs for the auxiliary voltages for the R_on compensation part the OP07 or  OPA172/171 could be good enough.
For the buffer between the reference and the PWM part, one could use an AZ OP (e.g. ADA4522) or a good BJT based like OP27/ADA4075/OPA209/ ... .
The reference itself would likely need 2 more lesser grade OPs, like OP07 or even LM358 (with LM399).
The resistors should not be that critical - so maybe some 25 ppm/K or similar thin film resistor for the main PWM path. I had 100K in my plan, but the ADA4522 might want a slightly lower value, like 50 K.

For the zero (and possibly also 10 V for gain check see below) detection lower cost AZ OPs like MCP6V71 (or 81) should be sufficient. Alternatively one could to the chopping by hand with an more normal low noise OP (e.g. OP27) and CMOS MUX.

For the input protection one could consider depletion mode MOSFETs like BSP135 and likely some low leakage diodes (e.g. BAV199).

For the OPs a non symmetric supply is not a problem. The OPs don't get and thus don't know about GND.

For having a possible gain (e.g. x 2)  at the output one would need some extra parts:
2 good resistors (e.g. some 20 K, <10 ppm/K) for the Gain.
A good precision low bias OP as a buffer for the R_On compensation and possible guards etc.
Another buffer for an auxiliary output at some 10 V for gain adjustment. Here an OP07 would be sufficient - for also external use one could consider a higher grade (e.g. ADA4077 or AD4522).
For the switching between gain of 1 or 2 one might get away with just CMOS DG413 or similar. JFET switching would likely be better.

I am still not sure about required protection. It would probably be hard to make the source as foolproof as an DMM. With a known circuit however repairs would be not that difficult just in case.
 
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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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@Echoo88 The PM will follow for the Digikey parts.
The schematic that I've wanted to reproduce is the Reference Divider and the non-AC (for the moment) parts of the Datron 4707, in the mean time, @Kleinstein showed some issues with the proposed schematic and came with a an concept based on CMOS integrates switches, then other forum members chimed in with different other schematics, the the discussion slided over the the advantages and disadvantages of AZ OP versus normal ones then I'm totally confused, so I'll get a few of each OP mentioned, some polypropylene capacitors for integrator and filter, here the consensus is clear, they are the best, a 50MHz TCXO for an unrelated project and some other small parts.
To make it for the shipping costs I'm offering a shuttle service for the German members.
Basically this is it, until someone comes with a ready to test schematic, I'll have to do my own testing.

In the meantime I'm looking at my hometown calibrator and wondering where can I find 5K EUR :))

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 
 

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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One quick question: where can I find some of these nicely isolated posts for soldering some puns together for hi impedance path ?

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 



Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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Last call for the Digikey shuttle, anything that would be nice to add for a novice experimenter to the list of parts ?

 Somebody snagged already the Fluke I've posted above, maybe it will post a teardown and a thanu-you, or it will appear later for sale at 10K+  >:D

In any case, I heed to proceed with my little mini-calibrator project, final canditate for schematic are welcome.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 


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