Author Topic: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?  (Read 34479 times)

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Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2017, 02:48:47 am »
One just showed up on ebay Germany:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/152378840725

HP branded 3458A for Euro 5000
It seems the expected price is already rising.
Just listing doesn't make a price. This was the same price microlease (the Italian keysight distributor) quoted me few months ago.

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Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2017, 02:53:46 am »
What is your dt (internal vs external temperature)? My unit go up 16°C over the ambient temperature.

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2017, 03:32:05 am »
Both of mine are 11-12 degrees over ambient, they have very good airflow around them.
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Offline acbern

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2017, 07:41:40 am »
One of mine I just checked is about 14K above Tamb. It uses the newer fan filter, which I would think has a better air throughput than the earlier fine mesh filters.
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2017, 08:02:48 am »
I would think the original filter has less restriction then the newer filter as long as it is kept clean - the holes aren't that small in it and you can easily see through through it. I'm no expert on filters though.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2017, 08:58:53 am »
Mine is about 14 degrees above environment
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Offline VK5RC

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2017, 10:37:01 am »
+14
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2017, 10:44:22 am »
About +12C right now but could be up to +14C if the filter is not very clean. Usually I clean the filter when the difference is about 14C and it drops the temperature back to +12C from the ambient.

Cheers

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Offline TiN

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2017, 12:19:23 pm »
I have no filter on mine.  :P
+10-11C delta.
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Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2017, 12:22:11 pm »
If air is going out I think filter is only for to avoid some bug visit our multimeter ... better not remove it. Guess anyway I have to check if was clean during refurbishment.

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Offline TiN

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2017, 02:02:27 pm »
Air going in.
Since my meter is 24/7 on, any possible bugs would be quickly and surely disassembled upon arrival. That 25mm thick Delta fan does not welcome foreigners..
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Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2017, 02:14:03 pm »
Ouch yes air is going in. Read somewhere else that was expelled. Anyway I had meter attached to the wall on a side, this was obstructing one side air outlet. Now with filter clean and some more space on a side it's 13.

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Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2017, 02:20:53 pm »
Wondering if there is a way to modulate fan speed based on ambient temperature. This will help keep temperature more stable.

But than we have the problem that when speed is slow there will be more temperature gradient inside the meter.

So even if done who can prove things get better? You need a 3458a into a thermal chamber a do calibration verification every few degrees.

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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2017, 03:15:55 pm »
Wondering if there is a way to modulate fan speed based on ambient temperature. This will help keep temperature more stable.

But than we have the problem that when speed is slow there will be more temperature gradient inside the meter.

So even if done who can prove things get better? You need a 3458a into a thermal chamber a do calibration verification every few degrees.

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That is:  :horse: .. or more politely, it's the wrong approach..

It's well known, that the 3458A definitely has to be used in a temperature stable, laboratory grade environment, say about 23°C +/-2°C nominal and +/-0.2°C change during the run of your experiments.
Only then, you will get reproducible and stable measurements.

The specified T.C.s for the different modes and ranges will tell, what you might expect, with ACAL, and w/o.
It's a fact, that with ACAL, DCV has about 0.15°ppm/C, and Ohms about 1.. 0.5ppm/C, as latter lacks an ovenized or compensated, or more tightly T.C.-selected 40k reference.

The T.Cs w/o ACAL add about 0.5..2ppm/°C.

These rough figures apply for mostly all other long range DMMs in a very comparable manner, as they all use more or less similar technologies and components.
The Fluke 8508A only is much more stable wherever resistors are involved, especially on 1yr. stability spec., as it has to rely on this stability over one year, due to the lack of the 3458As ACAL feature.

Anyhow, both instruments are in the same ballpark, and trying to additionally temperature stabilize their interior, is not the effective way.

Again, all these instruments are in no way DCV or Ohm standards, exactly due to these described restrictions.

So I propose, that you instead maintain external temperature stable DCV and Ohm standards, so that you can do stable absolute measurements.

Frank
 

Offline plesa

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2017, 09:15:58 pm »
I have no filter on mine.  :P
+10-11C delta.
clean filter 2nd generation, internal temperature 35 °C with ambient 24 °C. With ambient temperature span over 10 °C is internal temperature changed only by 5 °C.
During this experiment is visible that DCV gain has negative tempco ( to be exact -0.2 ppm/°C ). DCV gain changed from 0.9933635 to 0.9933643.
What is strange that during calibration was internal temperature 39 °C with ambient 23 °C, probably airflow was restricted.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:50:32 pm by plesa »
 

Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2017, 04:30:42 pm »
>> That is:  :horse: .. or more politely, it's the wrong approach..

Guess will be more easy to dig a hole into the garden to create a bunker ... suppose this last project will make both me and my wife more happier.
 

Online Dr. Frank

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2017, 07:27:51 pm »
>> That is:  :horse: .. or more politely, it's the wrong approach..

Guess will be more easy to dig a hole into the garden to create a bunker ... suppose this last project will make both me and my wife more happier.

In Italy, don't all of your houses have nice cellars, for this well Italian wine, for example?

That's the best location for constant temperature and the 3458A..

Frank
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 08:16:56 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2017, 08:27:40 pm »
One more addition to the group!


Offline TheSteve

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2017, 09:18:45 pm »
Very nice! Was it perfect when you received it or did you need give it a little TLC?
VE7FM
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2017, 09:59:26 pm »
Very nice! Was it perfect when you received it or did you need give it a little TLC?

UPS just dropped it off, perfect physical condition, but other than the seller stating it works, unknown.

Bummer, looks like gpib is busted on mainline kernels and not just the rpi stuff, dangit.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:08:32 pm by dr.diesel »
 

Offline ManateeMafia

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2017, 02:06:05 am »
They look great when clean and not busted to pieces.

TiN and I have had good luck with the python libraries. At least you could grab some data for the next several days to determine the stability of that nice meter.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2017, 04:30:35 am »
Based on recent acquisitions by mimmus, TheSteve, dr.diesel now, I think this thread title is very incorrect, as you guys getting these meters like mushrooms after the rain  :o :-DMM :-/O
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Offline plesa

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2017, 06:02:41 am »
Very nice! Was it perfect when you received it or did you need give it a little TLC?

UPS just dropped it off, perfect physical condition, but other than the seller stating it works, unknown.

Bummer, looks like gpib is busted on mainline kernels and not just the rpi stuff, dangit.
It is still strange, version 4.0.3 is listed as tested on 4.5 kernel.
Maybe if you have RPi1 you can try it, there is rumor that it works.
Check the LogNuts thread for latest info.
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2017, 06:26:12 am »
Based on recent acquisitions by mimmus, TheSteve, dr.diesel now, I think this thread title is very incorrect, as you guys getting these meters like mushrooms after the rain  :o :-DMM :-/O

You started the trend...
VE7FM
 

Offline mimmus78Topic starter

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Re: RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2017, 09:57:14 am »
Dr. Frank yes usually we have it ... but it's hard that a bottle of wine find the way in the "cantina" before it's already empty (evaporated).

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