RANT - Buying a 3458A why is that hard?

[mimmus78]

I went to town to buy a 3458A but I couldn't imagine that it could be so difficult.

I can understand the average "ebay" seller but also the big players seems to ignore concepts like:

  - machine manufacturing date
  - short term drift issue
  - cal ram batteries replacement plan
  - calibration history

In a few days I got some very genial replies:

  - "I don't know how old is the meter" when there is an HP logo on it
  - "cal ram is working properly"
  - "if meter passed calibration it meets its specifications included short term drift"
  - "I can offer traceable cal (without measurement uncertainties) included in this price."
  - "We can calibrate only up to 7 digits not 7.5"

Really the level of the qualified T&M equipment dealers is this?
Last one was from when I was asking for calibration of my just repaired K2001, thought it worth
mentioning too as this coming from a cal lab is the most genial of all.

Anyone knows where I can buy one of this meter from someone knowing what is selling?

[pelule]

I would recommend Keysight, if you like to have security on the status.
But you need the required budget for it.
Unfortunately "cheap" and "good condition" do not match by default.
Buying such a high precision DMM used means to take a certain risk in any case. And the risk increases, as cheaper it is offered.
Just take a look to TiN's "used" gears and the efforts he put in to get it back to a proper condition.

[rastro]

You may want to join the yahoo hp/agilent equipment group and post a WTB 'Want To Buy' for a 3458A. 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hp_agilent_equipment/info

[mimmus78]

Keysight asked me a reasonable price for an almost new unit not that much higher than the one selling on eBay.

Everyone is on a budget, but you are a dealer and asking me for almost 50% the price of a new one when it's a 20 Y old unit that you don't even have an idea if is ok or not is not fair.

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[HighVoltage]

It took me almost 2 years to find the right one and I don't know how many hundreds of mails
I finally found one and was very lucky to get a good one
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-3458a-gpib-data-aquisition-software-and-options/msg1043469/#msg1043469

You have to be patient or spend a little more and get one from the manufacturer with warranty.

[Assafl]

I frequent such a place that sells old T&M equipment on eBay. A huge warehouse near Tel Aviv, their main business is taking apart PCs. They have a pile of motherboards about 1 - 1.5 meters high. They sell them.... There is a pile of hard disks. They sell those as well (whatever life they have left). DVD and CD ROMs in piles, laptops, batteries, etc. They also have studio equipment and microphones and reel to reel Studer boxes they sell for $800 (who buys these???).

The outside walls are covered with piles of T&M. Piles of TDK-Lambda power supplies, of Aim-TTI power supplies. Racks and racks of boat anchor analyzers and scopes and time signal generators and broken optical equipment and comms analyzers losing value every day they are there. DMMs by the bucket (I "rescued" one) including tons of Tabor I guess he "scored" from a university lab somewhere and will never get rid of... I saw 2 GR digi bridges with notes in Russian as to why they are no longer working. A pallet box full of Agilent and Tektronix probes. lab equipment, stirrers, microscopes. etc. Old HP sine wave generators.

What was millions in 1980-1990-2000 is waiting to melted for steel and silver and gold - unless he can make 100x selling it on eBay. He doesn't work hard. Sees a model number, types it in eBay. Sees the multitude of other (too expensive dealers) and brands a $399 price tag on an Aim-TTI triple power supply. I haggle and take it for yay under $200. 2 weeks ago he got a shipment of 20 more.

But here is the bottom line: He has no clue what these things do. He does not know what an oscilloscope is or a signal analyzer. He does not know what installed options are and doesn't list them. He can't fix a blown fuse. He just writes "As Is for parts....". He powers it up and takes a picture using the iPhone.

He sells T&M - but his business is extracting value from the scrapyard. Not selling T&M. He buys REALLY cheap (cheap enough so that he can even make a profit from the smelter) and sells what he can on eBay or to others like me to help the bottom line. My guess is most are like that (Better ones like Halted Specialties have a person test the T&M - but then the prices of the good stuff go even higher...).
 

[razberik]

So thats why a lot of T&M equip located in Israel is so dirty and smashed.

[mimmus78]

Assafi I can see the point but I ensure you the one that pronounced that phases are not supposed to be just eBay seller.

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[Assafl]

So thats why a lot of T&M equip located in Israel is so dirty and smashed.

That is a bit unfair. The DMM I got was practically new. Some of the stuff was never used. The AimTTi had yellowed knobs and a GPIB address sticker on it. Almost new otherwise. Right on spec as well.

Problem was you couldn't tell from the photos or from the As Is warnings on eBay.

Stuff from universities usuallly suck - especially if from the general EE101 labs. Abused hard over years. Oh those Tektronix can take abuse.

The stuff from the research labs are hit miss. I used to lug HP and B&K out to sea on tug boats for navy experiments. I would probably buy those but the ones that go to artillary experiments I'd stay away from.

What one really wants is a piece of T&M from a development lab with a Robert Pease type occasionally breadboarding topologies he is testing.  Or even better -  units purchased as backup in case the beaten up one fails.

There are at least 10 of these places in Israel which means there is a whole lot of used T&M here. He lists maybe 1% of what he has. Probably less - which is a shame.

[Assafl]

Assafi I can see the point but I ensure you the one that pronounced that phases are not supposed to be just eBay seller.

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The only reason it works for them is that for a piece you pay 300$ for they paid 20$. As a single piece from a lot of 100's they buy from companies and universities.

He pays a price as well: Had he known how to test the gear (and take better more meaningful photos) he'd close at a higher cadence and at a higher average price. But that isn't his model.

Look at the DVC8500 calibrator on eBay. Most sell at around 100$. But there are on average 5-10 sellers trying to sell for 350-1000 dollars. One sold for that kind of price recently. That is what as a business he is looking for. A few sales like this out of a lot and he cashed back on the lot purchase. The model sucks for us but works for him.

The moral of the story is find a local one, tour, and bring cash. Cash is king and you can shave 50-70% in person. Flaunt your cash like a pimp. It is hard for them to say "no".

[TiN]

Honestly, I think expecting ebay sellers who list 100s of T&M and whatnot items weekly to know and give details on very niche instrument like 3458A is a bit naive. Yes, there are few who actually know what they sell (one who often sells boards tested with upside down 3458), but they will also take more your money happily. These guys usually cured voltnuts or voltnuts in remission. There are so many quirks in hiend equipment, that would require weeks of expensive gear testing just to tell you one sentence "meter does not drift". Rare seller cares that much. Same goes to RF stuff I believe.

Manufacturing date? Does it really matter? If its old, replace caps and enjoy aged meter.

Calroms? Must be replaced, backedup and recalibrated anyway, why bother seller with it?

Actually worst gear usually comes from folks who like to tinker or DIY repair, but lack of proper tools and knowledge to do so. All of us saw it - wrong parts bodged in, jump wires, etc

[TiN]

I agree on blueskull statement. There is no cheap 8.5 meters. Even if you get 3458A for free, you will end up buying 732B, SR104, teflon cables and 25$ binding posts just like that.

At least calibration on 3458 is "easy", given you have 4ppm 10V and 8ppm 10Kohm and don't care for high frequency AC. Any other meter will need love from 5700/5725 or 4808 to get calibrated, which are rare exceptions in enthusiast labs.

Flinstone
Unless you have good proof, I'd not say old HP-made 3458 from 1990 has any compatibility items with KS made is 2015. So saying boards not compatible is not correct. Even redesigned A5 with snaphat NVRAMs is just equal functionally redesign with same CPU but moved glue togic into Xilinx FPGA.

[pelule]

I do not expect many idiot out there, having the technical know-how to understand a quality and condition of a tool, but having no glue, what is the price for.
So I am still not able to find the "critical point" here.
If you want to buy a high precision 8.5 digit DMM (as already stated), you have two options:
- option 1: take a lot of money in the hand and buy one with proofed condition from a proofed source (like Keysight)
     (if a seller is able to confirm/guarantee the condition, he will be able also to judge the price. or you shouldn't trust him).
- option 2: having the specific know-how and the special equipment to check & repair.
     (the only way to proof the condition of a 8.5 digit DMM is to test it with >= 8.5 digit precise/stable equipment.
      that is not for free - its a prior investments and you expect a "return of that investment" in some way.
      If you don't have the know-how and right equipment, you NEVER will be sure, if the tool works correct.)
It is the same, if you like to have a High Class car like a Porsche or Austin Martin
- for a very good condition, you have to put a lot of money in your hand.
- if you do not want to pay that lot, you will search for one with "not that good" condition, but having in mind, to put a lot of work in later.
   But you also need to have the know-how and the equipment to do the repair.
Why is this should be different for a "High Class" equipment?

[branadic]

I guess option 1 means a unit that has already been used? If so, option 3 is to buy a totally new unit. That's what we (our institute) did, we invested the money into a new Keysight 3458A with the additional options extended memory (option 001) and 4ppm/a (option 002) for our institute. I'm very happy about that.
With some additional discount from the distributor and a discount promotion it was affordable. This could be an option for you, too. Find someone like an institute  who gets discount from distributors and let them sell it to you without additional costs except taxes. They are happy to sell it without additional cost to you, as this increases their sales, but they are non-profit organisations. Got it?

3458A:  8.395,00€
Option 001: 604,00€
Option 002: 1.180,00€
ANSI Z540 Calibrationn: 309,00€
-------------------------------------
- discount
+ taxes (19% in Germany)

[Echo88]

Would you pay 9000€ for a hobby instrument branadic? I too dream of a 3458A, but this hobbyist dream is not worth 9000€.

[mimmus78]

I do not expect many idiot out there, having the technical know-how to understand a quality and condition of a tool, but having no glue, what is the price for.
So I am still not able to find the "critical point" here.

The problem is when you are a professional T&M equipment dealer, you are asking me 66% price of a new for a 20 years old crusty unit and you don't even have an idea if this meter is working or not. Everyone of this dealers declare the meters where refurbished, but in reality a good number of them just put power plug in the holes and maybe give it a run of self test.

I'm paying a little extra not only because of your name, but especially for the service to have someone to check it and do the "programmed maintenance" on the instrument to ensure a good level of reliability. I'm buying this meter for many purposes and one of this is because I need it for work, if the meter stops because they forget to change cal ram batteries this will stop also my work and I don't like stupid things like this to happen.

[ManateeMafia]

I am not sure about your local Keysight repair center but if your budget is 66% of a new unit, then "just" buy a broken but complete meter. Keysight will repair the meter and guarantee that it meets specifications. They will also change the NVRAM if they are old enough. Here in the US the price for repair is ~ $3K.  After it is repaired, buy a service agreement for as long as it is offered. I got a 5yr agreement for mine.

I don't think any service center or reseller has the capability to test this meter other than Keysight or a few extremely well equipped labs. Either way, Keysight has the parts so your options are limited.
Also, contact Keysight for a possible refurbished model with a guarantee. They may have some available for resale at a price more reasonable than these other sellers.

In the end, your final price with a guarantee may still cost almost 6K Euro.

[branadic]

Would you pay 9000€ for a hobby instrument branadic? I too dream of a 3458A, but this hobbyist dream is not worth 9000€.

Do you buy cars? How much are they? Isn't that hobby too?
But I don't need a 3458A in my homelab, as long as I have the possibility to use the unit at work. I'm happy with my Prema 5017 SC at home.

[branadic]

@Branadic:  Currently 7.807,35 euros for a standard unit from http://www.meilhaus.de/3458a.htm and still 35 days to go

Sure, but we don't get dicount at Meilhaus, so all in all Datatec is cheaper (for us).

[TiN]

If your work pays off the cost of having 3458A (service plan + calibrations) then best way is to go right to the Keysight.

Because any other options are not giving you any safety if your works depends on it. Let's say you even found and bought never used 3458A for 4000$, specified by seller as so, and passing all tests and stable. Ok, great deal, right?

Then after 3 months of happy life ADC hybrid goes sick, and you are looking at instant 3900$ repair cost (new ADC board + calibration), with few weeks of downtime. So you pay 7900$, which still leaves you w/o warranty Not such a sweet deal anymore, aye?

I'd separate hobby use and pro use and make decisions accordingly Having myself 3458 I am ok to bear risks to have box w/o warranty, as I do calibration myself, and all non important stuff like bad calrom chips, old caps, busted panels are not worth the time to spend to ask seller. I can see enough on photos of the unit to commit or not. In worst case I'll have dead unit, which is bad, but that only means that some of hobby projects at home will need to wait, not the lost business revenues. My usual threshold for buying parts/broken units is usually no more than 20% of market price for good boxes. That means below 1k$ for 3458A, which are not very often deals on places like eBay.

[Assafl]

If your work pays off the cost of having 3458A (service plan + calibrations) then best way is to go right to the Keysight.

Because any other options are not giving you any safety if your works depends on it. Let's say you even found and bought never used 3458A for 4000$, specified by seller as so, and passing all tests and stable. Ok, great deal, right?

Then after 3 months of happy life ADC hybrid goes sick, and you are looking at instant 3900$ repair cost (new ADC board + calibration), with few weeks of downtime. So you pay 7900$, which still leaves you w/o warranty Not such a sweet deal anymore, aye?

I'd separate hobby use and pro use and make decisions accordingly Having myself 3458 I am ok to bear risks to have box w/o warranty, as I do calibration myself, and all non important stuff like bad calrom chips, old caps, busted panels are not worth the time to spend to ask seller. I can see enough on photos of the unit to commit or not. In worst case I'll have dead unit, which is bad, but that only means that some of hobby projects at home will need to wait, not the lost business revenues. My usual threshold for buying parts/broken units is usually no more than 20% of market price for good boxes. That means below 1k$ for 3458A, which are not very often deals on places like eBay.

There are other scenarios. Like a manufacturing line that requires a certain device (fully programmed using Labview - as an example). If the existing device becomes rickety they may want to find another for cheap. They don't want a different device since they will have to reprogram and decertify their line. Even if they only need 4 digits of an 8 digit device.

Also, there is always the non exportable countries buying stuff. Not that the seller can know.

[TiN]

K2002 does not use special custom parts, and specs are more relaxed. I'd expect most want 3458 due to it's mighty ADC.

Assafl
Sure, there are many folks looking at these units, including calibration labs and various naughty resellers, who think they sit on gold there.

There is one 3458 for sale in local used T&M shop, with busted VFD and missing board. It was up for sale when i come in Taiwan 6 year ago, and still is. I offerred 1300$ to seller few months ago , he said no less than 2k. And front panel from KS is close at 1k alone. So I wished good luck and got one off ebay <1k.

[mimmus78]

TiN there is "repair per incident" that is "just" 2300 USD so you are not going to spend others 4000 for any repair.

Even in business you don't have unlimited budget and all you spend must produce a ROI. This is especially true if you are very small.

Anyway my rant is about some T&M dealers that ask premium price (at same level of Keysight) but they do way worse service than any volt aficionados can do.

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[mimmus78]

Yesterday I received an offer from a dealer in the same ballpark of the other dealers I contacted.

He explained precisely what was his refurbishment check list before he sell this instrument, this includes also an A3 assembly replacement, cal ram replacement with data preservation (if available) and details on procedure and instruments used for calibration.

This is what I was searching when dealing with dealers but I was deftly too naive to pretend that.

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[HighVoltage]

Flinstone
Most likely Keithley, Fluke and Transmille have reworked their units to be RoHS compatible?
Otherwise it would not make any sense

But who knows, may be Keysight as a new 8 1/2 digit meter ready?

The guy that does my official calibrations claims that the older HP units are much more stable because of those ceramic chips.
May be we should put an older and a newer model next to each other and compare?