Author Topic: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465  (Read 3092 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ebclr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1635
  • Country: 00
Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« on: December 26, 2017, 01:01:48 am »
I'm really thinking in forget my order of keysight 34465 in favour off Rigol DM3058, will save-me  500 USD, and adds a lot of  flexibility.

What I will miss ??

 

Online HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3889
  • Country: de
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2017, 01:41:28 am »
You will only miss the large screen of the 34465A with a really nice trend chart capability, after you have used it once!
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
The following users thanked this post: kj7e

Offline alm

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1199
  • Country: 00
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2017, 02:21:27 am »
Better documentation ("Please send it to Rigol for calibrating" is a joke for a precision instrument), a better pedigree, better UI, better software support (although not sure how much functionality is available from BenchVue without paying $$$), better tech support in many regions.

See also these past threads:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dm3068-vs-agilent-34461a/
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/6-5-digit-dmm-keysight-34461a-or-rigol-dm3068-or/

Edit: this post was mostly about the DM3068, which is closer in features to the 34461A/34465A. But many arguments equally apply to the DM3058E, in addition to differences like communication interfaces, resolution, accuracy and trend plotting.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:41:50 am by alm »
 
The following users thanked this post: wraper

Online TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3623
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com
    • xDevs.com
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2017, 02:56:42 am »
500$ different is only to 3058E, which is 5.5 digit and no interfaces.
xDevs.com YouTube | Have test gear documentation to share? Upload here! No size limits, firmware dumps and teardown photos welcome.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1242
  • Country: hr
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 04:03:11 am »
@tin

in EU 34465 is 1150-1200€ , DM3068 is 699€ (VAT free). so yeah, that's almost 500 €, which buys you a scope...

@ebclr
To be honest, nobody really ever proved DM3068 to be really bad or good..

Voltnuts that have equipment, knowledge and patience snobbishly discount it as something without pedigree and not even worth their time.
Everybody just presumed it's bad.

Other ones that speak against it mainly come from position of ether better pedigree of big brands (which has it's merits for sure), or the facts like bigger graphical screen and colours, or something on usability side.. Or they bought it directly from China from who knows who, and got something suspicious (rejects, reworks, repaired).

Those threads mentioned, they have no useful information, they end up talking about everything except DM3068..

That being said, 34465 is a better specced instrument, with better screen, from a reputed company, with global premium support and calibration network. It is almost twice the price too, but if you can pay for it, you can't go wrong with it.

On the other hand, DM3068 is more like 34461 specs vise, and in my experience, holds it's ground well against it, and is better than 34460 that's still a slightly more expensive.  But some will say that for the price difference (700€ DM3068 vs. 890€ 34461 VAT free) they still will get Keysight because it's less than 200€ more .. I say that's  30% more.. And screen aside, not much going on for 34461 spec vise, except brand.

But that is a problem with precision instruments. Reputation and repeatable quality (ie. every one made by factory should be uniform quality and live up to specs..) is important..

If you plan to give around 1200 € and you don't care much about graphical screen, Fluke 8846A has even better 1 year accuracy specs than 34465..
Pick your poison.

Or you can think like I did: Keysight 34450A is a 5 1/2 digits (100 000 counts), 0.015% and costs the same as DM3068... And that is a no brainer..DM3068 is much better instrument..

I'm so amused when those that don't like chinese equipment compare it to to big brands, they go straight to comparing it to the best ones.. That cost twice as much...
If you compare it on a basis of price, it looks much better.

But all that is moot... Better question is, and what you had to start with was: what do you plan to do with it. Do you really need 6.5 digit DMM in a first place?

Regards,

Sinisa
 

Offline kj7e

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 510
  • Country: us
  • Damon Stewart
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2017, 04:50:12 am »
Just tossing this out there.  If you want the 34465A's features but it was not in the budget, look at the Siglent SDM3065x.   Its very similar in operation and features and is a very fine meter for the price IMHO (yes, I had one and also have a 34465A).  The 34465A is just a pleasure to use from all aspects, its a quality meter.
 

Offline mweymarn

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 14
  • Country: de
  • Callsign: DL2VW
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2017, 05:05:14 am »
What I will miss ??

Professional after-sales services. In my experience there are light-years between Rigol and the tier one T&M manufacturers.

Fine for hobbyists (as long as you are aware of the fact). A No-Go for use in a professional environment IMHO.


 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1242
  • Country: hr
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2017, 05:35:54 am »
What I will miss ??

Professional after-sales services. In my experience there are light-years between Rigol and the tier one T&M manufacturers.

Fine for hobbyists (as long as you are aware of the fact). A No-Go for use in a professional environment IMHO.

Could you please  explain what exactly does that mean, after sales service? Not being facetious, but I hear that phrase but no explanation what it means.
Do they help you with setting up measurements, explaining things from user manual that kind of things.. Or it means that you setup something according to the manual and it doesn't function as explained so you call them for clarification.? In which case is it good support or bad manual or instrument... ?
What part of after sales service was most important to you and it was worth the price?

I never had much (in professional environment) use of after sales service, except bug reports, repairs in and out warranty, and calibration...
Rigol, in my experience is nowhere near Keysight in customer service, but it was adequate so far...

Mind you, my experience was in small environments, I have no idea what it looks like when you have 250 8 1/2 digit meters and need to keep them running..
 

Online TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3623
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com
    • xDevs.com
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2017, 09:11:26 am »
600E is still a lot for a meter, especially for a voltnut hobby, so many folks are instead hunting down older but top-tier brand meters, like 34401/10A, K200x, 345x that are well proven by time, have very clear calibration information in public, have lot of various software options to use in datalogging/automated rigs and still have parts support in case something goes bad.

Since you touched voltnuts, same reason why nearly nobody from this crowd get Rigol/Siglent have that much of free time to waste testing inferior meter (by design) to prove it's specs. Even with 5.5 digits verifications is NOT the simple plug a reference into meter, get few readings, and viola, test done. Multiply check points for various functions and ranges, you just to test if meter in spec or not you will end up with few weeks of full-time job timeframe, which usually cost more then meter itself.

Yet, nothing is lost, and if you like risks and gamble, you can still have ebay and hunt for much lower prices than 600E, and still get 6.5d meter. Some of 34401A/K2000/K2015's go for less than 300$USD if you patient and don't care than much of nice fancy screen (which is overrated in my pov anyway, since you want remote interface to perform datalogs anyway!).

34461A is quite similar to 34465A/70A, if you look at Dave's video you'll notice that even PCB is 99% same. So 34461 is underestimated meter in a way, and still in current support.
If you want to buy benchtop DMM, then perhaps you buying it for stability, accuracy and reliability, for which items it usually worth to spend 100-200E more and sleep well at night.
 
xDevs.com YouTube | Have test gear documentation to share? Upload here! No size limits, firmware dumps and teardown photos welcome.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8435
  • Country: lv
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2017, 09:32:05 am »
On the other hand, DM3068 is more like 34461 specs vise, and in my experience, holds it's ground well against it, and is better than 34460 that's still a slightly more expensive.  But some will say that for the price difference (700€ DM3068 vs. 890€ 34461 VAT free) they still will get Keysight because it's less than 200€ more .. I say that's  30% more.. And screen aside, not much going on for 34461 spec vise, except brand.
Regardless of quality and trustability of specifications, compared to Keysight 3446xA, DM3068 has much less sophisticated true RMS measurement. And many times higher injection current when high input impedance mode is used. Also it's strange that it is compared to 34465A when it's not even direct competitor unlike 34461A. If it's not a typo about DM3058 and not DM3068 as in the video, then it does not make sense at all.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 09:40:28 am by wraper »
 

Offline Macbeth

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2453
  • Country: gb
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2017, 09:52:42 am »
DM3058 is a completely different meter to the DM3068 that Shahriar reviewed, they just look similar.

If you want a 5.5 digit cheap chinese DMM then don't touch DM3058 with a bargepole, go for the Siglent SDM instead. (It's cheaper too!)

Rigol still sell the DM3058(E) but absolutely do not support it. Last firmware update 2.2 back in 2015.

ETA: I would not bother with any new Chinese meters, just go for a used Keithley 2000/2015, HP/Agilent 34401 instead and get trusted 6.5 digits for half the cost of new China 5.5 digits.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:00:23 am by Macbeth »
 

Offline Macbeth

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2453
  • Country: gb
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2017, 10:08:34 am »
500$ different is only to 3058E, which is 5.5 digit and no interfaces.
To be fair to my 3058E, it does have USB and RS232 interfaces for SCPI, the higher spec 3058 (non "E") has GPIB and LXI and includes its own webserver too as a nice gimmick.

Though the SCPI is broken and I have raised this with Rigol but they just gaslight me and say nobody cares that it claims to be Agilent 34401A compatible and it patently isn't.
 
The following users thanked this post: TiN

Offline ebclr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1635
  • Country: 00
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2017, 10:09:00 am »
That windows CE inside Keysight is the thing that I didn't like, long boot time, and slow screens, In some years the nand will crash, and will be a nightwhere to replace it with a windows version who will no more be available, Rigols on the otjher hand is bare metal and will not have this kind of trouble. Also that kids play screens is quite useless for a instrument with 1000000 count an a 300 pixels graphics, it's much better using LXI on a 4k computer screen and matlab The point that I liked is Rigol is the sensor scale, emulation of 3 kinds of instruments for automation, and very low current scales together with a strong capacimeter,

 I would agree that the keysigth is a very beauty design. But will be a instrument to work , not a piece of art.

I believe that the venerable 34401A is a proven good instrument, but those new ones isn't the same instrument and we can't assume that they will do the same on the long run I really expect that a "blue screen " is waiting for me.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8435
  • Country: lv
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2017, 10:16:13 am »
Why anyone would need to replace windows CE version :-//, it's not desktop windows. Rigol is not bare metal but runs Linux IIRC. I won't disassemble Rigol to look what flash it uses but it could be NAND as well.
 

Offline Macbeth

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2453
  • Country: gb
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2017, 10:24:08 am »
Why anyone would need to replace windows CE version :-//, it's not desktop windows. Rigol is not bare metal but runs Linux IIRC. I won't disassemble Rigol to look what flash it uses but it could be NAND as well.
DM3058:

Flash is Spansion S29GL032N90TFI04 - and the Rigol fuckwits appear to have locked the lower 2 sectors with a password for no good reason whatsoever which hasn't helped my friend ralphrmartin at all in flashing a new firmware.

FWIW, The VREF is MAX6325 and the ADC is AD7799.

The DM3068 does use an LM399, not sure what the ADC is.

ETA: Just checked my notes. The DM3068 ADC is ADS1256. The Siglent SDM3055 has the same MAX6325 as DM3058 but the superior AD7190 ADC.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:29:49 am by Macbeth »
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13037
  • Country: nz
  • NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2017, 10:35:22 am »
DM3058:

Flash is Spansion S29GL032N90TFI04 - and the Rigol fuckwits appear to have locked the lower 2 sectors with a password for no good reason whatsoever which hasn't helped my friend ralphrmartin at all in flashing a new firmware.

FWIW, The VREF is MAX6325 and the ADC is AD7799.

The DM3068 does use an LM399, not sure what the ADC is.

ETA: Just checked my notes. The DM3068 ADC is ADS1256. The Siglent SDM3055 has the same MAX6325 as DM3058 but the superior AD7190 ADC.  ;)
FWIW
SDM3065X VRef LM399H

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/msg1329966/#msg1329966
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1242
  • Country: hr
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2017, 10:43:08 am »
600E is still a lot for a meter, especially for a voltnut hobby, so many folks are instead hunting down older but top-tier brand meters, like 34401/10A, K200x, 345x that are well proven by time, have very clear calibration information in public, have lot of various software options to use in datalogging/automated rigs and still have parts support in case something goes bad.

Since you touched voltnuts, same reason why nearly nobody from this crowd get Rigol/Siglent have that much of free time to waste testing inferior meter (by design) to prove it's specs. Even with 5.5 digits verifications is NOT the simple plug a reference into meter, get few readings, and viola, test done. Multiply check points for various functions and ranges, you just to test if meter in spec or not you will end up with few weeks of full-time job timeframe, which usually cost more then meter itself.

Yet, nothing is lost, and if you like risks and gamble, you can still have ebay and hunt for much lower prices than 600E, and still get 6.5d meter. Some of 34401A/K2000/K2015's go for less than 300$USD if you patient and don't care than much of nice fancy screen (which is overrated in my pov anyway, since you want remote interface to perform datalogs anyway!).

34461A is quite similar to 34465A/70A, if you look at Dave's video you'll notice that even PCB is 99% same. So 34461 is underestimated meter in a way, and still in current support.
If you want to buy benchtop DMM, then perhaps you buying it for stability, accuracy and reliability, for which items it usually worth to spend 100-200E more and sleep well at night.

My english is failing me when I try to be precise.. Maybe if I try to organize it like this:

1. I simply pointed at correct prices.. Price difference between DM3068 and 34465A is around 450€. That statement is correct. Difference to DM3058E full 750€
2. I said that 34465A is much better instrument and pointed out I find it absurd that people are comparing it to DM3068
3. I said that DM3068 seems to be comparable to 34460 in specs. Which is maybe 100€ more expensive, and at that price difference many would choose 34460A if nothing else for being Keysight.
4. Leaning to that "by design flawed" opinion, it is very logical to understand nobody would loose time to characterise instrument they think have no chance of exceptional  performance..
5. It wasn't my intention to  "call out" neither you personally or Voltnuts in general. I don't presume to tell people what to do with their time. I merely pointed out my regret that Voltnuts have no interest in that, as they would be great bunch to prove how good or bad DM3068 is. I'm very grateful for huge amounts of hard earned knowledge Voltnuts share here..
6. You explained to me (thanks for that !) that consensus between Voltnuts that DM3068 is "inferior meter by design" and that is the reason nobody wanted to test it.
Fair enough, but that also confuses me, because for the love of God, i can't find any published technical explanation as to why.
Not that I'm contesting your opinion, you and other our Voltnut friends here are much more knowledgeable and qualified than me about this topic. Is the choice of monolithic A/D converter as opposed to discrete A/D solution main reason, or you have some other compliant (reference circuit, input circuits, general design of board that point to unsophisticated design ...) I'm merely curious.
7. I'm in EU. Those magical 300USD instruments are not possible here.. 150USD instrument became 450USD to my door.  And then I have still have no clue if it even works right unless I send it for a factory calibration. In which case, i think it is smarter to just buy a new 34461A and be done with it.. And have warranty..
8. My personal take on DM3068 is that you can buy one for the price of 5 1/2 digit from Keysight. And in that comparison DM3068 is much better instrument. I don't think DM3068 is a PPM chasing device..

Best regards,

Sinisa
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 27014
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2017, 12:23:25 pm »
That windows CE inside Keysight is the thing that I didn't like, long boot time, and slow screens, In some years the nand will crash, and will be a nightwhere to replace it with a windows version who will no more be available, Rigols on the otjher hand is bare metal and will not have this kind of trouble.

But Keysight plan on selling and supporting this model for a very long time, that you can bet the house on.
This means they will find a solution to the WinCE issue and will offer upgrades in the future.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 27014
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2017, 12:34:59 pm »
Just tossing this out there.  If you want the 34465A's features but it was not in the budget, look at the Siglent SDM3065x.   Its very similar in operation and features and is a very fine meter for the price IMHO (yes, I had one and also have a 34465A).  The 34465A is just a pleasure to use from all aspects, its a quality meter.

And the "bonus" is that Siglent completely copied the Keysight UI, practically menu option for menu option  :--
So in effect the Siglent is as close to a clone of the Keysight as you'll get.
But you know, imitation and flattery and all that right.
 
The following users thanked this post: hwj-d

Offline hwj-d

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 362
  • Country: de
  • The economy of capitalism has NO social mission!
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 12:41:37 pm »
Some subjektive thoughts:

because in the analog world i'm playing arround with some lm399, ltz1000, kx'es and some adc's, dac's, precise resistors, i'm in love with the direct graphical and statistical possibilities of the 6.5 digit 34461a. But in retrospect, i wish i had the 34465a from the beginning. I buy it as a new meter, because i have no other reliably calibrated meter in my hobby-lab for now.

As to its accuracy and graphical presentation, this meter shows also his own sensitivity to the ambient temperature as well as the TC sensitivity of the DUT. So, one is sensitized to take that into account as an additional learning effect with this type of meter, as otherwise you can see always only digits. The possibility to see the last measurements from sample and hold directly in a table on screen, is an other feature, which I often use, and do not want to miss anymore. Maybe the siglent 6.5 meter is similarly good, but I decided for the original one.

My conclusion: i don't want to to miss such a meter anymore.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 12:46:09 pm by hwj-d »
 

Offline H.O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 576
  • Country: se
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 08:02:57 am »
I don't know how much (if any) this helps since I don't have any metrology grade equipment nor the knowledge to accurately use it but I do have a DM3068 which I bought new in 2013. I've also got one of those cheap Chinese AD584 based reference modules (also bought in 2013) which I now and then  run across my meters. This thread reminded me that perhaps it was time to do it again so I did and here are the results from the three times that I've done it on the DM3068.

The "actual" voltage is what it says on the little "calibration certificate" that came with the voltage standard. It was supposedly calibrated using a 34401A. Temperature in the "lab" is within 5°C

Code: [Select]
"Actual" 2013-08-14 2017-01-10 2017-12-26
 2.49901 2.49898 2.49901 2.49904
 5.00025 5.00024 5.00031 5.00035
 7.49933 7.49933 7.49942 7.49946
10.00011 10.00013 10.00025 10.00029

It was in pretty good agreement with the "standard" when it was new. Now, 4.5 years later it's drifted 160uV on the 10V reading provided the reference hasn't moved. The next best thing I've got is a FLUKE189 and it shows the same reading within a single digit today as it did the other two times but its resoultion obviously isn't even close to the DM3068.

If I read the datasheet on the DM3068 correctly it's still well within specification - for this single range...

Again, I make no claims that this is valid and/or solid proof of anything, it's just my own datapoints so take it for what it is.
 

Online Rbastler

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 282
  • Country: it
  • Wörk Wörk
    • Rbastlers Blog
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 08:33:16 am »
I used the DM3068 now for several years for hobbiest use and I'm very happy with it. The only thing really bothering me is, that you can't calibrate it, without sending it to Rigol -.- :--
The big display is fancy, but I don't value it as much as the cal option.
http://rbastlerblog.jimdo.com/
Gamma spectrometer works. Now some yellow crystals need regenerating and testing.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 8435
  • Country: lv
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 09:01:41 am »
It was in pretty good agreement with the "standard" when it was new. Now, 4.5 years later it's drifted 160uV on the 10V reading provided the reference hasn't moved.
Your reference is useless for such meter, as it's much worse than the meter itself. You can calibrate your reference by using DM3068 as a standard but not the other way around.
 

Offline Macbeth

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2453
  • Country: gb
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2017, 09:05:08 am »
I used the DM3068 now for several years for hobbiest use and I'm very happy with it. The only thing really bothering me is, that you can't calibrate it, without sending it to Rigol -.- :--
The big display is fancy, but I don't value it as much as the cal option.
Does the DM3068 not have a "user cal" option? The DM3058 does - you can switch cal back and forth between factory and user cal.

Unfortunately the method employed requires constant entering of the cal password on the front panel (so I changed mine to '0') for every single range and is a PITA. It also doesn't allow you to enter the exact value of the references you provide, it demands 19.00000V exactly for example.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1242
  • Country: hr
Re: Shahriar Rigol DM3058 and Keysight 34465
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 09:42:40 am »
............................... The only thing really bothering me is, that you can't calibrate it, without sending it to Rigol -.- :--
..............................

You have to send ANY 6 1/2 digit meter to someone for calibration....
Even if you knew how to do it, you don't have equipment to do it properly at home...
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf