Author Topic: T.C. measurements on precision resistors  (Read 399540 times)

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Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #850 on: January 31, 2018, 08:24:06 pm »
Moar resistor tests.


Which grade of PTF56 did you test? 5, 10, 25 ppm/K?

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline TiN

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #851 on: February 01, 2018, 11:42:55 am »
PTF56's are 10 ppm/K.

Few more from run today:

MPX 1.8MR : -6.2 ppm/K linear
VPG BMF custom VHP 7KR : -0.35 ppm/K, curved
Wirewound AX125 teal 285R : -2.2 ppm/K almost flat
Edwin PWW older one, 12.5KR : +1 ppm/K flat

Same setup, +20 to +50C. PID settings were bit off, so temperature wobbled a little this time.
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Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #852 on: February 01, 2018, 10:04:49 pm »
Here the drift over time for the PTF56 1K #1 resistor:

cycling 3 days (with measurement above) did not show any significant drift. (its all within measurement noise).
The hysteresis is decreasing over time.
Box T.C. is also stable at around 1.27 ppm/K

So the only disadvantage against the 8G16 resistors is that the "offset" = initial tolerance against my reference resistor is much higher 200-400 ppm as that of the PWW resistors (below 100 ppm). But still within the tolerance of 0.1%.
But since the absolute value plays no role in my applications it is calibrated out in the diagrams.

with best regards

Andreas



« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:11:02 pm by Andreas »
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #853 on: February 01, 2018, 10:08:47 pm »
todays measurement of PTF56 #2  again 5ppm/K specified temperature drift.

result: 0.72 ppm/K box T.C.
-0.42 ppm/K @25 deg C with sweet spot around 20 deg C.
Hysteresis similar to that of #1 on the first day.
I will do pre-conditioning for the further resistors to see if its a problem from soldering or if it is cycling related.

with best regards

Andreas

« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 10:15:34 pm by Andreas »
 

Offline TiN

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #854 on: February 08, 2018, 10:01:48 am »
Few more from run today:

Piece of LX wire from ramon, soldered to copper probe wires - -87 ppm/K
Fluke PWW 538 ohm from 332 calibrator, teal epoxy with gold leads, -3 ppm/K
Fluke hermetic 8846A network, 315 Kohm -5.8 ppm/K
Fluke hermetic 8846A network, 71 Kohm-5.7 ppm/K
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Offline ramon

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #855 on: February 08, 2018, 03:12:43 pm »
20mm of 0.03mm wire? I didn't gave you enough ::) Next time we meet I will give you much more.
But at least now we have proved that crimping is much better option.

There are some silver plating pens that sells for less than $100 (pen only), and I would like to try that next. But not sure if the power supply they use is a CC/CV or has any other kind of control. The power supply cost around $300 and maybe is just a constant current source, so I don't want to expend that much for a simple test.
 

Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #856 on: February 23, 2018, 05:56:08 am »
Hello,

I have been working towards being able to contribute to this thread.  Though my current setup shows some problems, I believe I have something worthwhile to contribute.

I have tested some hermetic Vishay resistors:

  • VHP202Z's for a 10k/20k resistance standard
  • VHP202Z's for an LTZ1000 circuit (120R, 70K)
  • VHD200 dividers for an LTZ1000 circuit (12.5k/1k)

Attached is the summary of results, and I'll follow-up with more details about individual test runs and my setup.

Edit: Pricing info for the resistors, which were ordered from Texas Components on a 2 to 3 week delivery:

  • VHP202Z, 9K9850, 0.1%, Y60719K98500B0L, $27.98
  • VHP202Z, 19K970, 0.1%, Y607119K9700B0L, $27.98
  • VHP202Z, 120R, 1%, Y6071120R000F0L, $27.90
  • VHP202Z, 70K, 1%, Y607170K0000F0L, $40.95
  • VHD200, 12K5/1K, 1%, Y5076V0599FF0L, $46.50
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:26:14 am by cellularmitosis »
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #858 on: February 23, 2018, 06:15:52 am »
Full CSV files of each run are available on github:

https://github.com/cellularmitosis/logs/tree/master/20180115-vhp202z

https://github.com/cellularmitosis/logs/tree/master/20180204-r-tempcos

https://github.com/cellularmitosis/logs/tree/master/20180205-r-tempcos

My measurements and graphs have gotten a bit better as I have progressed through this, as you'll see.

----

VHP202Z, 9K9850 #1, #2 and #3

See attached graphs.  Here, I was just doing a single ramp from 25C to 35C, in steps of 1C at 5min/C.

Results are roughly -1.3ppm/C, -1.35ppm/C, and -0.65ppm/C.
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #859 on: February 23, 2018, 06:20:29 am »
VHP202Z, 19K970, #1 and #2

Results: about -1.1ppm/C and -0.7ppm/C.

These results are much, much noisier.  I believe this is due to the fact that 9K9850 was near the top end of the ADC's range (for the 10k range), whereas 19K970 is near the bottom of the 100k range.  Because I am showing these graphs in terms of PPM (rather than absolute value), the noise and drift of the meter and measurement setup appears to be magnified.
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #860 on: February 23, 2018, 06:28:03 am »
VHP202Z, 70k, #1, #2, #3

Results: about -0.55ppm/C, -0.6ppm/C, and -0.45ppm/C.

Here I extended each run to multiple ramps, eventually settling on three ramps up and down, at 5min/C, with 30min plateaus at the top and bottom of each run.

Additionally, I added a "Savitsky-Golay" smoothing filter (raw data in light blue, filtered value in dark blue).  Thanks to Conrad Hoffman for mentioning this filter!  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/data-smoothing-excel/

LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #861 on: February 23, 2018, 06:36:24 am »
VHP202Z, 120R, #1, #2, and #3

Results: roughly -0.9, -1.0 and -0.4 ppm/C.

Because there was a large initial downward drift for #3, I ran that test a second time.
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #862 on: February 23, 2018, 06:40:12 am »
While measuring the 120R resistors, I also did a few runs of constant 25C for 1 hour, to try and gauge the stability of the overall system.  Unfortunately there is a large amount of noise and drift.

Additionally, I had attempted to perform a very long run (~19 hours), but due to an 8-bit integer overflow, my program got stuck at step 127 (which happened to be 27C).  What is interesting about this run is looking at the drift of the system during the constant 27C part, and comparing that to the sudden change in direction of the ambient temperature.

edit: the second static graph is the same as the first, but with ambient temp zoomed in.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:59:41 am by cellularmitosis »
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #863 on: February 23, 2018, 06:48:02 am »
VHD200 12.5k/1k divider, #2

The 1k half of this divider surprised me in two ways: 1) the 1k range of my HP34401A seems to be much, much quieter than the other ranges, and 2) this resistor seems to behave differently than the others (it seems to take a longer time to "settle").

I ran three repeats of the 12.5k test, just as a check of repeatability.  I also did a static hold on the 12.5k.

Results: roughly -0.6 and -0.3 ppm/C.

(edit: got confused between #1 and #2)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:52:52 am by cellularmitosis »
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #864 on: February 23, 2018, 06:52:05 am »
VHD200 12.5k/1k divider, #1

Results: roughly -0.7 and -0.6 ppm/C.

LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #865 on: February 23, 2018, 06:57:27 am »
VHD200 12.5k/1k divider #3

Results: roughly -1.0 and -0.6 ppm/C.

In summary, it looks like there is some drift in my setup (mostly likely the temperature coefficient of the Ardiuno's ADC and/or the gain resistors in the thermistor-opamp circuit).  I will look into addressing this shortly by placing the Arduino circuitry in its own temperature-controlled chamber.  At that point, the only drift remaining in the system should be in the meter itself.

Edit: all of these resistors are on their way to Andreas. I am very interested to see how his measurements compare!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:43:15 am by cellularmitosis »
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #866 on: February 23, 2018, 04:11:14 pm »
Edit: all of these resistors are on their way to Andreas. I am very interested to see how his measurements compare!

All?   :scared:

I remember of one ratio measurement on a 12K5/1K divider.

That will be minimum 3 weeks measurement with my equipment  :scared:

Too late: todays mail already arrived.  ;D

By the way; if we want to compare the measurements interchangeable we have to fix the measurement conditions.
You typically have only 10 deg C span 25-35 deg C in your measurements.
With VHP resistors I have never seen a hysteresis with +/-7 deg C (14 deg C overall) span.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/t-c-measurements-on-precision-resistors/msg1170353/#msg1170353

So if we want really to compare the measurements I would have to use the same 25-35 deg C.

Normally I try to do a 10-40 deg C measurement so 30 deg C span.
(I do not always reach the 10 deg C if my lab is too warm but then I have e.g. a 12-42 deg C span).

best regards

Andreas

« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 04:27:44 pm by Andreas »
 

Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #867 on: February 23, 2018, 04:41:27 pm »
Andreas, I am sorry for the confusion, what I meant was “why don’t you play with these resistors for a bit, and if you post your results to the forum, you can keep one of the dividers as a tip”.  Please don’t feel obligated to measure all of them, just have fun :)

Using your usual 30C Spam sounds fine — I am interested to see if the shape of a curve is revealed with the wider span, and also interested to see hysteresis effects.

No worries on the three weeks, take your time :)
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 

Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #868 on: February 23, 2018, 10:10:30 pm »
Hello,

lets look how far I can get.
Of course the ratio dividers are the most interesting for me.
And I´ll try to do a ratio measurement first.

Tomorrow a full span (30 deg C) ratio test, and as I have already a date tomorrow evening
(and cannot prepare another setup in the evening) I will do a reduced span test (10 deg C)
with several cycles the next day. So we can see the difference.

The ratio test is done directly with one of my ADCs. (this way I can do a PTF56 + AD587 tempco test simultaneously)  >:D
The ADC itself has less than 0.02 ppm/K in ratio mode. So I put it directly into the temperature chamber.
Pin 3 (VREF =5V ) goes to the 12K5 resistor. Pin 4 (ADC input) is connected to the divider tap
and Pin 5 (GND).
The concern that I have is that with a such large ratio the noise will be too large.
I am having effectively around 370mV in 5V range.
So I did a "finger test" as sanity check.
It shows that the noise with measurement values averaged over 1 minute is around 1 ppm.
So I should be able to detect a 0.03 ppm/K drift over 30 deg C.

with best regards

Andreas

 

Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #869 on: February 23, 2018, 10:55:36 pm »
Andreas, would it be easier to detect PPM changes on the 1:12.5 ratio, rather than the 12.5:1 ratio?

Using the divider in 1:12.5 mode should produce 0.370V, whereas in 12.5:1 mode it should produce 4.629V.  1PPM of 4.629V should be easier to detect than 1PPM of 0.370V, I think?

Hmm, or perhaps not, if a PPM is relative to the ratio itself...
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 

Offline TiN

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #870 on: February 23, 2018, 11:41:04 pm »
When is my turn?  :-DD
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Offline AndreasTopic starter

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #871 on: February 24, 2018, 08:07:25 am »
Hmm, or perhaps not, if a PPM is relative to the ratio itself...

Interesting question. Lets do the math.
we have noise (around 10 uVpp divided by sqrt(350) when averaging over one minute)
we have the gain drift of the ADC 0.02 ppm/K so 0.2 ppm over a 10 deg C span
and the offset drift 0.01 ppm/K so 0.1 ppm over a 10 deg span.

and then it makes a difference if we calculate the voltage ratio 13.5 : 1 or 1.08 : 1 or the resistor ratio 12.5 : 1
And since I do not measure the offset to subtract it from the VRef voltage in the setup it does not cancel out to near zero in the calculation.

So I get the impression that for my ADC it is better to have the lower resistor on the ground side.
But of course we can check what will happen in reality. (Its just another day of measurement).

One further question arises: shall I use the voltage ratio 13.5 : 1 for the evaluation (as in the finger test)
 or the resistor ratio 12.5 : 1 ?
I think the later makes more sense.
Or how is the "ratio T.C." from the resistor manufacturer specified?

with best regards

Andreas





 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #872 on: February 24, 2018, 08:28:46 am »
@Andreas
Vishay specifies resistance ratio for TC tracking.

Regards,
Sinisa
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #873 on: February 24, 2018, 07:29:34 pm »
Cellular / Andreas

Not sure if Andreas is coupling the resistors -directly- to the LTC2400 ADC input (if that's what is in use) - but be aware of the warnings on pp22~24 on the datasheet.  You'll have a source impedance around 1k, plus capacitance plus inductance + thermal flow issues on those long resistor leads waving in the wind.  Not the most accurate setup.  Realize when the datasheet is talking about capacitance issues that also means "impedance" (as in all LCR) so be careful of that - even a few nH can result in detectable ppm shifts depending on how the circuit is setup.  The input of any of the LT switched capacitor devices is far from DC.  Always keep that in mind.  The datasheet is a bit optimistic when it is telling you an input impedance of 10k might be OK...then again it might not if you've got a bit more LC in your circuit than you thought. 

Not to mention the variable TC of the input protection diode leakage of the ADC - which is also going to add data you weren't counting on when you think you're looking for ppm-level changes.

If Andrea's test is using a ppm-accurate buffer on his resistor checker, then it might be less of a concern.

NOW:  Realize your LTZ ratio resistor is going to be very out of balance in terms of heat dissipation between the high and low resistors.  Yes the power is small number, but the ratio changes you're looking for are even smaller - and so most of the resistor ratio performance is generally dictated by how it's mounted mechanically to the board and thermal flow into / out of the leads.  Having a matching TC ratio on both resistors helps but that's not the whole story because of mis-matched power dissipation.  You can try using something like 14ea. 1k resistors to develop the correct 13:1 ratio, but that builds in a much larger current loop area for noise injection.  Etc.  No perfect solution I'm afraid.

Here's a suggestion for more accurately evaluating resistor performance for LTZ heat ratio resistors - and because you're happy to spin boards :):

Build a simple LTZ circuit with a few different sets of heater ratio resistors on the -same- single board.  You want to be able to jumper the sets into the same LTZ circuit for comparison of performance (without soldering).  The concept here is the resistors are under real Vbias and are mounted a realistic distance from the LTZ with a somewhat realistic thermal flow in and out of the resistors.  It won't be 100% perfect but it will be a close approximation to realistic use condition.

Jumper in you various resistor sets for a week or month at a time and watch LTZ performance.

See if you detect any difference in Vref TC or general LTZ performance as you change resistor sets.  You will see a slight change in -absolute value- of Vref output when you change resistor sets, but you're looking for any difference of TC and noise performance of the LTZ.

As long as you're using somewhat decent ratio resistors you'll probably find no huge (or even detectable) difference between a couple QUALITY $6 PWW or expensive Vishay Voodoo Magicals.  Even if you've got a JVS or multiple 732's on hand to really <accurately> compare ratio resistor performance on the -same- LTZ circuit (where the only thing changing is the ratio resistors) - it's hard to see any difference, really.  Sometimes you can spot a really crappy ratio resistor set...  But most of the better resistors we've checked makes no huge difference either way.

That's the real beauty of the LTZ circuit!

My advice is to don't over-spend on LTZ resistors - because it may not make any difference to your lab equipment and your measuring ability.  Remember that even multiple 732's on hand will get you down to a few ppm measuring of absolute value of a Vref, and anything below that is just pure uncertainty - if an -accurate and traceable- absolute Vref  value is important to you. 
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: T.C. measurements on precision resistors
« Reply #874 on: February 25, 2018, 08:07:36 am »
That's the real beauty of the LTZ circuit!

My advice is to don't over-spend on LTZ resistors - because it may not make any difference to your lab equipment and your measuring ability.  Remember that even multiple 732's on hand will get you down to a few ppm measuring of absolute value of a Vref, and anything below that is just pure uncertainty - if an -accurate and traceable- absolute Vref  value is important to you. 

True words!

Now we have an uncomplicated through hole basis pcm px and a nice kx, they works both really good, and we know which resistors to use in general.

That's it.

More experimental measurements certainly have their authority, but in terms of what has been achieved so far, the results of my opinion are quite marginal.

The rest satisfies the academic understanding.  ;)
 


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