Author Topic: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.  (Read 15331 times)

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Offline lowimpedanceTopic starter

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vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« on: May 29, 2018, 06:24:00 am »
 Came back to my office to find a couple of old LT component boxes on the desk, left by a fellow recycler who knew I collected "this stuff" and couldn't throw it away  :phew:.
So the contents were a small quantity of rather elderly LTZ's of varying ages of 1986, 87 and 88  that have never been used  :-+.
See pictures below. Interesting that some have gold plated legs and others do not, (as with the 90 vintage I already have which are not gold plated either)
 For a bit of fun I plugged one of the 86 vintage refs into an old burn in board I had lying around and out popped 7.13V after 32 years sitting around  :D.
Apparently each of these units cost $78 way back then according to the writing on the box. I wonder how many LTZ's of this age that have never been used are still in existence ?.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 
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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2018, 06:27:37 am »
Nice score!

Maybe you will get lucky and two of them will be exactly 100mV apart, giving you a dual LTZ ref with a bonus 100mV ref.
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2018, 06:56:31 am »
No one throws such a treasure on MY desk ...   :-//

 ^-^

 :-+
 
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Offline max-bit

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2018, 09:15:48 am »
Do you want to sell something from it?
 

Offline EmmanuelFaure

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 09:39:47 am »
That's some EE porn! :D

Quote
Apparently each of these units cost $78 way back

About ~$150 in 2018 $, taking into account the inflation. They were pretty expensive back then!
 

Offline TiN

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 09:51:47 am »
lowimpedance always find a way to reach out volt-nut vibes.

I bet should be some hundreds of these chips somewhere :).
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Offline kj7e

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 02:29:26 pm »
Just curious, has anyone ever made any correlation to a particular vintage being more stable than others?  Would NOS be desired for any reason over the newer parts?  Does aging only occur when the part is in an active circuit or does some ageing occur over time even in storage?

My intuition leans toward, newer parts may be preferred due to newer, modern manufacturing techniques and possibly higher purity silicon.  Any aging in storage is virtually insignificant.  However, is it possible the early chips where more carefully made, maybe before any manufacturing cost optimizations.  Maybe someone would have some insight.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 02:31:34 pm by kj7e »
 

Offline Haasje93

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 03:37:18 pm »
That is very nice to find on your desk!
I wish that happened to me...
 

Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 03:53:41 pm »
Just curious, has anyone ever made any correlation to a particular vintage being more stable than others?  Would NOS be desired for any reason over the newer parts?  Does aging only occur when the part is in an active circuit or does some ageing occur over time even in storage?

A single data-point: The lowest noise part I measured also happened to be a used part, from 1998.  https://github.com/cellularmitosis/logs/blob/master/20180324-ltz1000-1f-noise/README.md  However, one data-point isn't sufficient -- I think the more likely cause is either luck, or a manufacturer selecting low-noise parts in 1998.

My intuition leans toward, newer parts may be preferred due to newer, modern manufacturing techniques and possibly higher purity silicon.  Any aging in storage is virtually insignificant.  However, is it possible the early chips where more carefully made, maybe before any manufacturing cost optimizations.  Maybe someone would have some insight.

I think Andreas is curious if since Fukishima, silicon die purities are not as high as they used to be, and 1/f noise and popcorn noise are more prevalent since then.  I don't think we have enough data-points to say yet though.
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 

Offline eurofox

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 03:59:35 pm »
Just curious, has anyone ever made any correlation to a particular vintage being more stable than others?  Would NOS be desired for any reason over the newer parts?  Does aging only occur when the part is in an active circuit or does some ageing occur over time even in storage?

My intuition leans toward, newer parts may be preferred due to newer, modern manufacturing techniques and possibly higher purity silicon.  Any aging in storage is virtually insignificant.  However, is it possible the early chips where more carefully made, maybe before any manufacturing cost optimizations.  Maybe someone would have some insight.

French people use to say "c'est dans les vieux pots qu'on fait la meilleure soupe"
It is in the old casseroles that you make the best soup

Sometimes they mean about food but women as well:  :-DD

Mmm but I don't think you can use this for voltage reference components  :palm:
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 07:11:02 pm »
Calm down, there is an answer. And that is: YES!

The only question is, belongs to which question...  ;D
 

Offline rhb

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2018, 12:01:09 am »
An interesting experiment would be to put them 6 in a burn in board with 3 running continuously and 3 only powered intermittently and compare the drift over 3 months running the intermittent set once a week for a few hours.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2018, 12:25:35 am »
As they're never used but only mummified for decades NIB, whats the "technical" advantage of this old references say compared to newly manufactured ?

Offline CopperCone

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2018, 04:08:22 pm »
They need to make a new series of voltage reference. This thing is ancient now. 30 years. We need 9.5 digits.
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2018, 05:14:28 pm »
It's a question of demand. I don't know of any actual applications requiring 6.5 digit absolute accuracy, much less anything better. The LTZ1000 seems to be viewed as "the best" here, but looking at all the shenanigans needed to extract maximum performance from it, who could put a better chip to use and what would you compare it to? There's been no shortage of new references with targeted applications from a number of vendors. Money and orders talk, the rest walk.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2018, 02:19:21 am »
They need to make a new series of voltage reference. This thing is ancient now. 30 years. We need 9.5 digits.
That's it, why i post such a statement:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/vintage-ltz1000-from-1986-nib-!/msg1574092/#msg1574092

 :clap:  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:21:47 am by hwj-d »
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2018, 01:42:04 pm »
Cellurarmitosis “Maybe you will get lucky and two of them will be exactly 100mV apart, giving you a dual LTZ ref with a bonus 100mV ref.”

You might not need two LTZ1000A references exactly 100mV apart because you can change the ref voltage somewhat by selecting the values of R2 and R3 (the two 70K resistors). While I was waiting for two 75K precision resistors to be delivered for one of my references, I temporarily put two 68K 1% resistors in place to see that everything was working.  With two 68K resistors I got 7.08355 volt and with the two 75K I got 7.08005 volt or about .0035 volt difference. With two references you could conceivably set one high and one low and change the difference by up to .007 volt. You’d still need two references fairly close but that would be easier to find than two exactly on. Just a thought.   
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2018, 04:48:37 pm »
Hello,

Larger adjustments can be done with the temperature setpoint resistors.

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline lowimpedanceTopic starter

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2018, 01:14:33 am »
As they're never used but only mummified for decades NIB, whats the "technical" advantage of this old references say compared to newly manufactured ?

 Well certainly these old timers would need to be put through the same testing as a freshly made one to see any differences, how ever the sample shown has powered up perfectly fine after three decades, and there is also sample units of the 90's date code running happily with another 'volt nut' here who has collected quite a bit of data history on it  ;). So I would anticipate these REF's to be still good  even after their "mummification"... umm long rest.
 I could donate a few samples for further experimentation to those that have the time and resources to add more data points for comparison.
Plenty of old LTZ's but short on time and other 'bits' !.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2018, 11:55:25 am »
If any of these old LTZ1000CH references are going to be compared against modern parts should the new references also be non "A" versions as well because of the difference in recommended heater temperature?
 

Offline lowimpedanceTopic starter

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2018, 01:47:15 pm »
To be a fair comparison that should be the case. Still it would be interesting to see long term drift measurements with one of these oldies.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2018, 05:14:36 pm »
Quote
To be a fair comparison that should be the case. Still it would be interesting to see long term drift measurements with one of these oldies.
I have one of CH'es dated 2016, and about 20 of ACH's from 175x week to compare with, if you want me to compare one of these oldies.
All these are still waiting for voodoo resistors.

One of your "newer" 90's datecode CH is running in my 3458A since February 2016, as I replaced jumpy ebay-speziol ACH with it, on HP A9 board. I'll get Wavetek 7000 after calibration next month, so it will be turn of this 3458A to be recalibrated, and then I can get additional drift point since. So far, based on test in October 2017, DCV annual drift is -1.89ppm (CAL? 2,1 data). As additional note - both my 3458A's are running 24/7/365 at reduced oven temperature (100K over native 15K setting resistor).
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Offline branadic

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2018, 05:25:49 pm »
Hi,

if you want I can test some LTZ1000 for you. I have three LTZ1000CH based on the circuit from Andreas and my LTZ1000 with a board that is shown in AN86. I have 4 resistor sets left, that I could use for a fair comparison. I'm located in Germany.

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Offline cellularmitosis

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2018, 12:37:09 am »
Ohhh ho ho ho look what arrived in the mail today!  :scared:  8) 8) 8)

I'll be testing these parts for 1/f noise, temperature set-point (find the R4/R5 ratio at which regulation drops out at room temperature), and if I have time, I'll see if I can compare their temperature coefficients.

lowimpedance has been very generous and has donated these parts "to the cause"  :-+  I think its time we had a few more members on this forum with LTZ references!  I'll add a bit to his generosity and throw in a circuit board with each.

As far as who to give them to... perhaps I should draw six random names from the list of members who are currently signed up for cal club round 2?  And if one of them wishes to decline, I'll draw another name instead.  If you have any ideas on this matter, feel free to share them!
LTZs: KX FX MX CX PX Frank A9 QX
 
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Offline Vgkid

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Re: vintage ltz1000 from 1986 NIB !.
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2018, 12:46:58 am »
I see a ref01 , what are the other 2 cans.
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